E-a24066

[Aspurg]

I'd rather open my own topic rather than post in another one!

accuser: Aspurg, maternally paternal descendant of commanders of the fortress Hodidid, claimant of direct paternal descent from Greater Cumania, autonomous entity of the Kingdom of Hungary, modern day Hungary.

Oh it seems I am not descended of Hodidjed fort commander. There is a family from Sarajevo with same surname as my maternal family who are but it seems there were 4 separate families with the same surname from Sarajevo 200 years ago who cannot be linked, and surname is based on Ottoman state monopoly of coffee productions which was given to some people for a year or much more. These 4 families are from 4 separate mahallas (quarters) and it is very unlikely a single family can hold onto such lucrative monopoly.

Anyway even if I am not related to that branch still my grandfathers branch were designated in 1781. as kişizade, which means "noble". Only 5 families of Bosnia had this designation. One tested is Spanish I-M26, descended of Spanish muslims. Another from Mostar, historians use this surname to suggest Turkish origin. Another kişizade from Sarajevo are most likely descended from Hungary. Not 100 % but ancestor might be related to a Janissary unit which was stationed at the same place in 1680 from where the other family comes from probably (North of Budapest). I talked to a cousin, to get him tested.

My grandfathers mother is descended from another Sarajevo family which descends of muslims from Sanjak of Pakrac. Again like many they arrived in late 17th century.

Grandmothers family Zavidovici, mid 19th century, some Turkish origin claims, but that village seems to have been composed of locals 400 years ago. But this claim relates to 200 years ago, probably local but have to test.

Grandmothers mother family, moved to Sarajevo from Donji Vakuf century ago. Ancestor 200 years ago mentioned with a surname indicating certain origin from muslims of Timișoara/Temesvar. Certainly arrived from Timișoara after 1716. when the Ottomans lost it. My mtdna I1a1a is from here.

I have lots of foreign ancestry, even unusual for Bosniaks.

So I have more motivation now to ensure my paternal ancestry is also foreign!
Finally my clade is isolated https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A24066/

Unexpectedly I got a Bosniak from Central Bosnia there. Among over 1000 tested Serbs from Bosnia I don't have a single member of my clade, and very unlikely I will. There is another Bosniak from NE Bosnia of my clade but he is descended of my family so surely about 500 years at best from me. And he came from Peshter area.

We'll see how many novels he has, my 14 novels make up 2200 ybp, on YFull they only count novels of best quality. Still we share 12 of best quality.
Bosniaks from Central Bosnia have more native ancestry than Serbs or even Croats, very low Vlach, and Albanian sporadic. It could be some old Illyrian connection but:

Bosniaks from Central Bosnia also have had strong Hungarian influence since Medieval Bosnia, and some migration of muslims from Hungarian areas post Battle of Wiena in 1683. I have such ancestry myself.

Who seems closest to YF67778? There is one study sample:
Bosniak____14 24 14 10 16-18 11 12 13 13 11 29 17 14 20 12 17 11 22
RU281 Cluj_14 24 13 10 16-18 11 12 13 13 11 29 18 14 20 12 18 11 22

So GD=3/19 but they share dys393=14 which is very rare for V13. Karcag family has ordered BigY700, I used to think he may be related to RU281 GD=4/19 dys456=18, but Bosniak has a better case, he also has elevated dys458. If that's true then RU281 and Györfi from Karcag despite being in that region are pretty distant.

In a village where Bosniak is from in 1604. there were people named Gaspar, Galin, land called Shargan.

Also in Central Bosnia there are finds of proto-Magyar N-M2019, and also some Bosniak R-Z326 (which exists in Hungary I can say based on STR's), G-PH1780 (from Hungary where it is found or Anatolia).

So there are already some certain and potential links.

Karcag cousin told me they are of certain Cuman origin. In fact there is another family with same/similar surname, I was told this family is not Cuman.

I've found one of my subcluster dys385b=17 in Vojvodina study. Vojvodina Serbs are descended of Krajina Serbs or Raska Serbs mostly, in first my cousins don't exist, among second there is my cluster but this guy must be 1000 years away, he is not of my family. He looks similar to some Serbian/Bulgarian border region people. As that study had many non-Serbs, Hungarians, Romanians, Roma, this guy might easily be a Hungarian or Banat Romanian (very undertested area).

All that I want is to find a single member of my cluster dys385b=17 in Kunsag. And that would be it. Usually when you probe a population, more common haplotypes pop out, so if the first and only tested from Karcag was my cousin there should be more.. Especially as in the Balkans this cluster is found in some places suggesting Cumano-Pecheneg links..

[Trojet]

We'll see how many novels he has, my 14 novels make up 2200 ybp, on YFull they only count novels of best quality. Still we share 12 of best quality.

No, in addition to Best Quality, they include Acceptable Quality Novels as well. The main criteria is the coordinates of SNPs must fall within the "combBED regions". Not every SNP falls within these regions, however, it doesn't mean they're bad SNPs, they just don't qualify for the Age Estimation formula. You can actually see on YFull if a particular SNP falls within these regions if you search for it and click for more info. See here for a detailed explanation: https://www.yfull.com/faq/what-yfull...n-methodology/

I've noticed that your line is overestimating the TMRCA as compared to other samples. For example the average E-Z17107 TMRCA is ~2700 ybp, while your line has it at ~4200 ybp. So I would think the TMRCA of E-A24066 is currently being overestimated as well. It will probably be lowered once the new sample's (YF67778) age estimation is calculated into the TMRCA.

[Aspurg]

My family are from Bijelo Polje, modern Rakonje. Attested ancestor died in 1645. from about there. This village is attested in at least two Ottoman defters as "Rakun/Rakon" in 1485. and 1530. But nobody lived there back then. The original name of this village was Spocha or something similar, then in 1485. it received a second new name, these seconds names are always associated with some clan that is taking over.


So where were they? Some made up tradition of Kuchi area descent exists in my family, but it was never to be taken seriously, because it makes no sense for a wealthy family to be some poor people running away for their lives from Kuchi, besides my family is attested pre-battle of Wiena (again you see this event having influence), as only after then these Brda Montenegrin clans started arriving.


Genetics gives clues. There are two families E-A24066+ from central Serbia, but who surely migrated to there from Peshter highlands. One is Dragovic came from Boroštica village 200 years ago, other came from Raždaginja village on Peshter at the same time, third just "Peshter". Unique surnames of the 2nd and 3rd clearly suggest links with the hill Trojan next to Krnja Jela, and deserted village Čarovina, next to and belonging to village Baljen in 16th century.


So my E-A24066+ is related to multiple places on Peshter, all of these villages are today and have been since 200 or more years Bosniak, more precisely mostly they have been Kelmendi, who arrived there in early 18th century as Catholics, later converted to Islam.


But what was there before?
In Ottoman Sipahi defter of 1526. for the battle of Mohacs, among sipahis who were supposed to stay in Sancak of Bosnia (this area belong to Bosnian sandzak), there was a group of Christian sipahis. There were no less than ten timar holders from the nahiya of Barče to the North.
knez Ognan, his timar village Brvenica, second name Zaječić.
knez Radoslav, timar village Korutan
knez Dimitri, timar village Balenova , original name of modern village Baljen in 16th c.


and above them
Hasan Çelebi son of Ahmed-bey silahdar, timar village Krće


This small piece of information above explains my ancestry.


1) Knez Ognan was a commander of voynuks from Sjenica area in 1530. His community later settled village Lopiže. In this village there is one distant branch of my own family. The original village belonging to Ognan - Zaječić was taken over by Hasan Çelebi, and when you consider that his village Krće is right next to Zaječić it is obvious these people are connected.
2) Korutan was a village with vojnuk community and village along with Janča whose part it is today this was the base of the father of Hasan Çelebi, Ahmed-bey
3) Baljen the village of 3rd person from the list had an old land called Ahmed in 1571., almost certainly referring to this Ahmed-bey, his son was superior to a Christian sipahi..


Ahmed-bey and Hasan had connections to only this group of Peshter voynuks not any other! As is the case with other communities in Ottoman census the mere fact that these come in succession means they are likely tribally connected. Another village where Hasan celebi got some lands is Raždaginja, from where one family related to me came from. His son Mehmed was sipahi who held Krnja Jela village too!! So they could have moved from Krnja Jela/Baljen area to Raždaginja at that time. And this was the general trend to leave Eastern Peshter for Western Peshter because voynuk organisation was flourishing on the Western Peshter highlands, and it died out on the Eastern Peshter already in mid-16th century.


The knez Ognan community from Zaječiće is the only community where a similar last name to mine is attested, "Rajkun/Rajkon" in late 16th c. Also in 1485. Zaječiće did not exist which means these people came to there from somewhere, clearly either from Korutan or Baljen direction, their co-tribalists. Korutan voynuks seem not to have left some descendants, and I couldn't find any old families there either.
A24066 is connected to Baljen.
A24066 is also connected to Krnja Jela which was a voynuk village before already in 1485.


So logically we should expect A24066 in knez Ognan's community because of one branch of my family there and because of "Rajkun" there only in this community, and because this community has tribal ties with community with certain A24066 connection as explained above.


Village Rakonje was not settled in 1530. but was settled in late 16th or early 17th century by my ancestors. So these 3 communities were working for Hasan Çelebi son of Ahmed-Bey.


Who is Ahmed-Bey? Ahmed-Bey is the person whos property is Rakonje in 1485.


Ahmed-Bey was şahinci (the one who trains the falcons) on the Court of Sultan Mehmed Fatih, sometimes prior to 1463. when he is first attested. He then became the silahdar of Isa-bey Ishaković or Sultan Mehmed. In 1467-68 he became the kapıcıbaşı of the Sultan Mehmed.
In 1468/69 he came to Bosnian sanjak and was given a large timar with total worth of 48.527 akçe, in two areas near Novi Pazar with his base being in Korutan/Janča, and Peshter, and in the southern area where he held the nahiye Nikšići, and nearby my village. A very powerful Ottoman figure, maybe only second to Isa-Bey Ishaković in Bosnian sanjak because Sultan's kapıcıbaşı is a very powerful position, often meaning some people are getting executed if he is coming, and he came to the area in 1468 with this title.


This was Ottoman area and an idea that some Christian raya people or even any Muslims could settle on the property of a Commander of the palace guards of Mehmed the Conqeueror is ludicrous, at that time this position was only one at the time in the Ottoman empire. It could only have been somebody who has connections to him and his family. And the only group they really had some ties with are these voynuks where there are already clear E-A24066 associations.


But as explained above Peshter group descends from the Krnja Jela, Baljen region of Peshter. There
1) Krnja Jela , 1571. baština/land called Kuman , the only such baština name I found in at least hundred mile radius.
2) Baljen or earlier Balenova looks quite possibly related to Cuman personal name Balin or Cuman city Balin
3) between these there is village Točilovo, in 1571. a Christian had a name "Togan" or "Tugan" (in Ottoman script o/u cannot be distinguished), in Turkish Dogan is more common form of "hawk", "t" is more Kipchak.


So when he came to Peshter Ahmed-bey kapicibasha hired some voynuks from this area. Possibly then came influence of my clan with this second name Rakon in 1485. So it seems because of this name my clan had some connection to this village even before we settled there later.
However this area was divided between multiple Ottoman Sanjaks.
Pešter was divided between Bosnian Sanjak in the West, and Prizren Sanjak in the East. Originally there were many voynuks in the Eastern Peshter, and few in Western. The situation was reversed few decades after. It seems voynuk organization could not survive in Prizren Sanjak, but it could in Bosnian sandjak where it flourished. So that is why this migration of community of knez Ognan occured, originally from Baljen/Krnja Jela area (Prizren sanjak) they moved to Zaječiće and then later to Lopiže under direction of Ahmed-bey's son. There they would keep this status at least until 1604. and certainly until Cretan War in 1645. and even until Battle of Wiena in 1683.


Then in the chaos these Christian sipahi and voynuk communities who had some autonomy and served the Ottomans dissapeared. And some of my family got this made up Kuchi tradition, because Kuchi tribe people started coming in in large numbers. Both Christian and Muslim, and there are so many families of Kuchi cluster in the area. Also many PH908 families had even more elaborate Kuchi traditions, Kuchi and other Brda clans offered protection in 18th, 19th centuries, they would take revenge for their tribesmen etc.

None of the families related to me from Peshter had any Kuchi tradition, and neither did some of my family branches. If this tradition had any reliability it would have recorded genetic links with these people, and it would have recorded a member of our family who was wealthy in the first half of 17th century but it didn't.

This is only from some published documents, there are more unpublished, and as I can read them, I will find eventually my ancestor and his ancestors. Another thing: our ancestor had a name Paun, this name is usually associated with Romanian language, it did exist sporadically in these areas, but at one point in time namely late 16th century when this person was likely born for some reason this personal name became very common on Peshter!! And sporadic elsewhere, little more common in some Vlach areas (Barče), rare generally. So his personal name itself actually indicates that he was born on Peshter!!


Lejlek mosque in Novi Pazar is the oldest mosque there and it was built by Ahmed-Bey silahdar. He is basically one of founders of Novi Pazar.
Most likely this Turkish family left no living descendants, but I've identified 20 individuals related to him in 16th/17th century.


Some people with whom he had close contacts were Sanjakbey's of Zvornik Sandjak. Because E-A24066 can be connected to him, quite possibly presence of (again should be Bosniak) E-A24066 that is close to my family in Tuzla Canton can be explained through his family's contact with some Zvornik Sanjakbey's. At that time Zvornik Sandjak was a separate Sanjak and it occupied precisely the Tuzla/Zvornik area.

[Aspurg]

No, in addition to Best Quality, they include Acceptable Quality Novels as well. The main criteria is the coordinates of SNPs must fall within the "combBED regions". Not every SNP falls within these regions, however, it doesn't mean they're bad SNPs, they just don't qualify for the Age Estimation formula. You can actually see on YFull if a particular SNP falls within these regions if you search for it and click for more info. See here for a detailed explanation: https://www.yfull.com/faq/what-yfull...n-methodology/

I've noticed that your line is overestimating the TMRCA as compared to other samples. For example the average E-Z17107 TMRCA is ~2700 ybp, while your line has it at ~4200 ybp. So I would think the TMRCA of E-A24066 is currently being overestimated as well. It will probably be lowered once the new sample's (YF67778) age estimation is calculated into the TMRCA.

Ah I see,thanks! I know I have about 14 or 15 of best quality and 4 of acceptable quality, and looking at other clades I came to impression that they don't count in TMRCA calculation SNP's of acceptable quality but that didn't add up fully. So that is the key.

Well I saw immediately that I share with YF67778 14 SNP's and I have 18 of my private ones. So I figured TMRCA of 1700 ybp is more realistic. We are 21/111 so not close and it seems our clade mutates more, as indeed I contribute 4200 years to the age of Z17107, far more than the others. I was looking at some of his and mine unique STR's past those that we share and it seems per 111 STR's that I have more of these unique STR's, so I guess he should have less novels, but ofc there are these days far more STR's.

But the YFull formula is such that it only counts novels, so if one happens to have many novels these novels are going to make up TMRCA regardless of how many are shared! That is why it is important that a clade is differentiated, that it has several levels. So when I saw my 18 SNP's I still figured if I counted all of them our TMRCA (my contribution) would reach 2700 ybp which is silly. You can't have 18 SNP's at 150 years/SNP and then 21 year/SNP within the same clade.

So getting more samples and levels matters, you see above under E-Y81971, E-A19238 share 5 SNP's at their level, their 1 novel makes up their TMRCA, but YF16494 only has 2 novels parallel to A19238, this time their 4 and 5 SNP's are counted for Y81971's TMRCA, YF16494 lowered the TMRCA. This system has flaws and more sub-branches help.


Me and YF67778 share DYS510=18 + DYS446=11
Me and E5882 share DYS587=19
YF67778 and E5882 share DYS525=11

It seems E5882 will be above me and YF67778 as we share two of these slow STR's. Also I've noticed we have off-modals at DYS650 but we don't share it. Modal is 21, E5882 has 20, YF67778 has 19, I have "18.a". Probably this STR represents another of our shared SNP's.

Also what should be noted is that per current evidence:
E-Z17107>Y81971 GATAH4=11
E-Z17107>Y30991 GATAH4=12 (I have 11 but this one is recent)
E-Z17107>Y30991>Z38456>BY4435 GATAH4=12
E-Z17107>Y30991>Z38456>BY4461 GATAH4=12

It seems GATAH4=12 defines Y30991. Russian E-Z17107>BY4467 has H4=11, no reading on Y30991. Ukrainian 116695 and their cluster all have H4=12 so it seems chances are Ukrainian is Y30991+, Z38456- going by current data. This SNP cannot be tested at FTDNA, FTDNA's SNP offer is horrible.

There is a new Ossetian E-S26015* clade, negative to main 5 except E-BY20093 and he is very distant to them, probably negative as well ( I suggested they test it). He doesn't seem close to anyone, closest is one Russian, ofc I thought he might be Z17107 due to his H4=12. That's what I wanted to see, some new CTS9320's far to the East. Tested some Caucasians for Z17107, but SNP pack costs only as much as 3 SNP's. Single SNP is abit expensive at FTDNA.. I thought one Georgian at 111 STR's was a match for American Z17107, Z38456 clade, and he looked good but he must be some other CTS9320.

[Aspurg]

Well there is a mountain called Žilindar, situated at the Serbian-Montenegrin border. Around this mountain there is a concentration of Bulgarian toponyms: immediately South there was a village called Dragulin, to the NW Boljare, Peshter, and Boroshtitsa itself from where a cousin little more distant to me is from. Also mentioned Raždaginja, these sport typical Bulgarian zhd, sht instead of Serbian đ (dj) and ć (ch) forms. You'd think looking at these villages that you are in Bulgaria.
My close genetic relatives have direct genetic ties with some of these villages, and in the case of two families from Raždaginja, as I've said their unique surnames clearly point in direction of Cuman traces.

Highest peak (1616 m) is also called Žilindar, a neighboring peak is called Zmijina Glava - Snake's head. How come nobody has ever noticed that jılandar/жыландар (pronounced. zhılandar) is also a snake - in Kazakh and Kyrghyz!!
It is basically phonetically identical. Consonants are identical, vowels are very similar (жыландар - Жилиндар). Turkic languages follow wovel harmony and no "i" can be paired with "a" in a word, rather in this instance only "ı" can. This vowel would be converted into "i".

There is literally no other explanation, and y -> zh phonetic change is typical for Kipchak languages, this cannot derive from Turkish, especially with the "dar" added, Turkish is yılan.

There was a Cuman population from Bulgaria around there, and obviously the only possible such parallel is the 1253./1254. Bulgarian-Cuman raid of the area when they pillaged the St. Peter's monastery. It seems they escaped to Peshter, or as Serbs were generally losers in that war, and where Hungarian king was the arbiter maybe they were forced to accept some foreign population there.
Of course other than E-A24066, nothing else exists there that also exists in Bulgaria and Cumania.

Look forward to some Second Bulgarian Empire results, I think there is at least 40 % chance Asen, Shishmans or Terters were E-A24066.

I need to find these cousins from Bulgaria which do exist (Karachanak et al etc), and I have a pretty good idea where to search..

I was looking to utilize my cousin from Boroštica village on Southern Peshter, and Boroštica is pretty close to Žilindar. So that's where we started expanding from.

[Johane Derite]

Your own family has a tradition of Kuqi which occams razor points to as being true. Peshter is known as a having a large Albanian minority.

These other folk etymologies are much more convoluted and don't have much probability of being true.

[Aspurg]

Your own family has a tradition of Kuqi which occams razor points to as being true. Peshter is known as a having a large Albanian minority.

Do not play troll games with me here Johane, this is my thread and any off-topic will be acted upon. I have explained already that my clan are:
1. Not genetically related to Kuqi
2. Our presence in Lim area predates any Kuqi migration (after Wiena War)
3. Our family was wealthy (laughable to have wealthy family as some runaway people from other places)
4. Something like 10 different haplogroups in the area have this "Kuqi tradition", it was made up in 18th or 19th century as Kuqi were powerful tribe at the time, and they offered some protection.

5. Trojančević (now its public result so I may comment) E-A24066 Raždaginja, hill Trojan next to Krnja Jela with a land Cuman, no Kuqi tradition
6. Čarović (related to the guz above) E-A24066 Raždaginja, Čarovina next to Cuman Baljen, no Kuqi tradition
7. Dragovic E-A24066 Boroshtica, near Žilindar, no Kuqi tradition , closest to him seems a North Macedonian, likely from Kumanovo area (because he is close to some others in the area) Literally every time this cluster is found on Peshter with these Bulgarian traces.

Lutovac for example just counted as as old population. So Kuqi tradition was clearly without any doubt unfortunately made up. Unfortunately I say, because from my POV my ancestry is 10 times better than that of Kuqi or any other katunar. I admit some of us (not all, some branches did not have Kuqi tradition) completely lost our way, making up this tradition while not remembering our notable ancestor from 400 years ago..

Plus we have some other cousin not in our cluster bit to the North. But around there we see some traces like Shishman too..

These other folk etymologies are much more convoluted and don't have much probability of being true.

This forum is full of your topics where you babble about etymologies of Illyroillyroillyriiiaaan, posing as some linguistically "smart" dude while not having a clue about linguistics.

If you have a problem with one of my etymologies then rationally counter it.

Btw. I can easily demolish some of your linguistic points about Illyrian - Albanian "parallels". So don't troll.


You like many Albanians have a problem. The problem I see in so many peoples. The victim cult. We wuz there beforee, the Slavs came and did bad things to us. Serbs also. We wuz here before Alboz, Alboz are Bessi who came to our land and opressed us, but Slavs were there before.

That is your cult of the Prey.

But I follow the cult of the Hunter.

Cumans were hunters, hunting for the prey, and I have the honor of being descended of these Hunters. Not of Kuqi or other katunars or Slavic turfs. They are below my league.


E-A24066 is found in
Žilindar - Kipchak Snake
Pečenjevce
Karcag


As I've said in another thread 10 years of being Cuman or Pecheneg is above 100 years of being an average Serb, Croat, Bosniak etc. (I rate some Albanian clans higher though). And by the evidence my ancestors were Cumans in 13th, 12th century, and Pechenegs in at least 11th, possibly 10th.

P.S. Yes there are Albanian traces on Peshter. But if not for the chaos in the Ottoman empire after 1683. when my clan lost power, my clan would not have allowed any Kuqi, Vasojevici, etc. nor any Albanian Kelmendi to settle there.

Peshter is Bulgarian for a cave, not Pećina like in Serbo-Croatian, and that land belonged to nobility of Cuman-Bulgarian roots since late Medieval.

So Peshter was Bulgaro-Cuman long before becoming Albanian.

[Aspurg]

These other folk etymologies are much more convoluted and don't have much probability of being true.

Btw. umm, they are all either likely or certainly true. Unlike bunch of your ridiculous "Illyrian-Albanian parallels" that have been debunked long time ago.

Btw. you might be in numbers around here and well Eupedia is mostly Italian (its ok Italians and Albanians are good friends) so you have some protection here even when you blatantly troll I guess. But lets meet on a place such as Anthrogenica or Apricity.. Please.. I don't have a lot of weight here (nor I have some desire to have it) but I might have much more weight elsewhere..

I understand your frustration. Vast majority of E-V13 got owned by the Pripyat folks. My folk were hunting these people. If I were almost any other clade of V13 I'd be pissed off too (there are notable exceptions ofc)..

I know you like to troll Serbs about having these or those roots but there is very little of a Serb in me.. I simply like savage nomads more than I like any other people so now wonder I am in this game, If I were PH908 I wouldn't like it. I wouldn't be pissed off if I were some R-Z2705 etc. And this is just the beginning, proving the Cuman-Pecheneg origin, the harder part is making sure that they exist again, otherwise nothing of this makes any sense really..

There is nothing to be said here it is mathematically nearly impossible for a cluster to be found at Kuman-Žilindar - Pečenjevce - Karcag, (with last claiming to be of certain Cuman origin) and NOT be Cumano-Pecheneg.

What needs to be done is test more people from certain areas, just one member of my cluster (385b=17) found in Karcag would prove this connection 100 %.