Aspurg
Banned
- Messages
- 661
- Reaction score
- 233
- Points
- 0
- Ethnic group
- Bædzænæg
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- E-A24070
- mtDNA haplogroup
- I1a1a
@ Aspar
Thanks for that input, I didn't notice this Cuman claim. And it seems quite legit as it refers to Codex Cumanicus. And it seems closer to Bulgarian than Mongol form. Slavicist Wilhelm Tomaschek first made this Mongol connection long time ago. I guess CCum wasn't translated back then. There were many bolyars of Cuman extraction, and alongside this Huban was for ex. certain Chernoglav, this is not the Slavic name that was common, but for example in 1282. the Serbs captured Tatar leader Crna Glava or "black head" so likely direct translation from Karabash. In any case it doesn't look Bulgar as it wasn't attested in Bulgars.
Pechenegs were too more Kipchak than Oghuz from what I've read, especially the Berendei, who were often confused with the Cumans by many authors (though they were different).
EDIT: I found this Cuman "ghob/ghub" in Codex Cumanicus, so indeed it must be from such direction. And also the Mongol ghobay is related to it as they all have the same meaning.
Regarding E-BY5430, ofc for some time it is clear to me their ancestry is from Macedonia. Though they do not quite match this Bulgarian toponym concentration, they are from Pljevlja, according to some claims their ancestor was Sipahi Vojin/his kin, who was ktetor of Holy Trinity monastery in Pljevlja in 1590s. So they seem also like some older family like mine.
On the other hand this particular Bulgarian concentration is on the Southern Peshter area, indeed the very name Pešter is Bulgarian (Serbs use Pećina for cave), some people of my cluster tested are directly from some of these, for example one from Boroštica. Also for example Raždaginja, you see instantly linguistic difference of Bulgaro-Macedonian sht/zhd vs Serb Ć/Đ (ch/dj), there is indeed in Bulgaria river and village with such name.
Also to add Bolyare which doesn't need much explanation, these are mostly concentrated around the mountain I mentioned: Žilindar which seems surely Kipchak Turkic, meaning "snake", one peak of Zhilindar is called "snakes head"/zmijska glava. In 1254. Bulgarian ruler wanted to take the Dalmatia, he had a pact with Dubrovnik and Hum ruler Radoslav (also Nemanjić), and Bulgarian army came to Bijelo Polje, but eventually after short conflict things were back to normal, and Ragusans got what they wanted. Radoslav dissapeared as did the independence of Zachumlia. Serb ruler apparently swore oath of allegiance to Hungarian ruler back then.
I found indication my family were musellems in the early 16th/late 15th century. That was an old Ottoman cavalry order (from the days of Osman), some Christians were recruited, in this instance it should be an indication they were very good with horses (as two traditions of my family claim).
And it seems my own family weren't even vlach by status. Now when you mention greater Balkan influence in Serbs than in Bosnians/Croats, this is indeed due to many factors. One, Vlach migration from the Central Balkans, then some Slavic Y-DNA locals already in 14th century adopted the Vlach status. most descendants of Herzegovina Medieval Vlach katuns have Slavic Y-DNA, however some do have clearly non-Slavic ancestry. Then the Ottomans came, and basically in late 15th century most of Serbs were Vlachs or they were in such status.
Actually most of Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia migrated as Vlach groups with the Ottomans (Serbs from Herzegovina are very old there though). These people had privileges, their leaders were officially sipahis etc. So no wonder especially Bosnian Bosniaks always referred to Serbs as "Vlachs". For Serbs under the Ottomans being of vlach status was advantageous in many ways. Also Nemanjic expansion Eastwards caused mingling with various Shop/Central Balkan groups, largely Serb I-Z17855 became part of Serbian ethnos.
So due to numerous factors Serbs, indeed originally likely similar to Croats became more SE shifted.
Ofc there were those early Bulgarian incursions, per some Serbia was even totally deserted, but also much of this genetic homogeneity in Serbs is for the same reason as in Albanians, tribal culture and domination of stronger tribes over the weaker tribes. Such culture used to be very common in Montenegro, and in Herzegovina little bit earlier. Still much of Serbs trace their ancestry to Herzegovina and Montenegro. Actually Western half of modern Montenegro is Herzegovina. Montenegro was a small core area of Montenegro 300 years ago..
Regarding the Meglen, very interesting, I find them puzzling. So they are closer to Aromanians. I know in the past some have hypothesized they have some Steppe input, as in Moglen both Pechenegs and Cumans settled. There are some Greeks under I-Y125026>Y128714 , they are from Theodorakion village not far from you but I guess they aren't of Moglen ancestry. I-Y125026 occurs in some Serbs, Bulgarians too, so should be Slavic, but there is one Bessenyei from Hungary and also one from anonymous Cumanian sample from Hungary so not sure what's their ancestry, especially as in Todorci though most had Slavic names there were few which looked Turkic. This is a clade likely descended of Daco-Celtic Kotini/Anarti and they expanded largely with Slavs, some likely moved with Cumano-Pechenegs.
Thus far Aromanians seem genetically isolated, even their most common J-L283 clade is still very distant from Albanians.
Yes Shop might have been the starting point for Proto-Romanians, I don't deny some potential earlier presence of some Latin groups in Romanian areas (like Transylvania), but it seems Balkan incomers had great influence.
Regarding Cetina, the did practice cremation combined with inhumation. On the other hand their neighbor culture where J-L283 was found practiced exclusively inhumation, as did their direct descendants such as Glasinac culture. Archaeologists say these two were clearly different populations. Thanks to these inhumation burials of Cetina I believe there is enough material to test these eventually. Now regarding their Tumulus burial, both Cetina and Posušje cultures had it. But it's origin is Glina III, almost identical burials. This sort of burial was totally unknown to the BB's. J-L283 were likely originally Bell Beakeroid derived, and you can see in autosomal profile of EBA/LBA Dalmatians that these people are BB derived not Yamnaya. But cyst Tumulus was imposed by the Yamnaya it seems.
Regarding L51 in Greeks, Dorians could have had the L51 easily, because it was the L51 heavy central European groups who were among the instigators of the LBA collapse. That's no surprise but based on linguistics Greek should be distantly related to Armenian and like Armenians originally Z2103.
Yes I read about those unofficial finds, it will be interesting to see what was the exact context etc. Again Greeks are not so well tested so thus far few of these clades have been identified.
Thanks for that input, I didn't notice this Cuman claim. And it seems quite legit as it refers to Codex Cumanicus. And it seems closer to Bulgarian than Mongol form. Slavicist Wilhelm Tomaschek first made this Mongol connection long time ago. I guess CCum wasn't translated back then. There were many bolyars of Cuman extraction, and alongside this Huban was for ex. certain Chernoglav, this is not the Slavic name that was common, but for example in 1282. the Serbs captured Tatar leader Crna Glava or "black head" so likely direct translation from Karabash. In any case it doesn't look Bulgar as it wasn't attested in Bulgars.
Pechenegs were too more Kipchak than Oghuz from what I've read, especially the Berendei, who were often confused with the Cumans by many authors (though they were different).
EDIT: I found this Cuman "ghob/ghub" in Codex Cumanicus, so indeed it must be from such direction. And also the Mongol ghobay is related to it as they all have the same meaning.
Regarding E-BY5430, ofc for some time it is clear to me their ancestry is from Macedonia. Though they do not quite match this Bulgarian toponym concentration, they are from Pljevlja, according to some claims their ancestor was Sipahi Vojin/his kin, who was ktetor of Holy Trinity monastery in Pljevlja in 1590s. So they seem also like some older family like mine.
On the other hand this particular Bulgarian concentration is on the Southern Peshter area, indeed the very name Pešter is Bulgarian (Serbs use Pećina for cave), some people of my cluster tested are directly from some of these, for example one from Boroštica. Also for example Raždaginja, you see instantly linguistic difference of Bulgaro-Macedonian sht/zhd vs Serb Ć/Đ (ch/dj), there is indeed in Bulgaria river and village with such name.
Also to add Bolyare which doesn't need much explanation, these are mostly concentrated around the mountain I mentioned: Žilindar which seems surely Kipchak Turkic, meaning "snake", one peak of Zhilindar is called "snakes head"/zmijska glava. In 1254. Bulgarian ruler wanted to take the Dalmatia, he had a pact with Dubrovnik and Hum ruler Radoslav (also Nemanjić), and Bulgarian army came to Bijelo Polje, but eventually after short conflict things were back to normal, and Ragusans got what they wanted. Radoslav dissapeared as did the independence of Zachumlia. Serb ruler apparently swore oath of allegiance to Hungarian ruler back then.
I found indication my family were musellems in the early 16th/late 15th century. That was an old Ottoman cavalry order (from the days of Osman), some Christians were recruited, in this instance it should be an indication they were very good with horses (as two traditions of my family claim).
And it seems my own family weren't even vlach by status. Now when you mention greater Balkan influence in Serbs than in Bosnians/Croats, this is indeed due to many factors. One, Vlach migration from the Central Balkans, then some Slavic Y-DNA locals already in 14th century adopted the Vlach status. most descendants of Herzegovina Medieval Vlach katuns have Slavic Y-DNA, however some do have clearly non-Slavic ancestry. Then the Ottomans came, and basically in late 15th century most of Serbs were Vlachs or they were in such status.
Actually most of Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia migrated as Vlach groups with the Ottomans (Serbs from Herzegovina are very old there though). These people had privileges, their leaders were officially sipahis etc. So no wonder especially Bosnian Bosniaks always referred to Serbs as "Vlachs". For Serbs under the Ottomans being of vlach status was advantageous in many ways. Also Nemanjic expansion Eastwards caused mingling with various Shop/Central Balkan groups, largely Serb I-Z17855 became part of Serbian ethnos.
So due to numerous factors Serbs, indeed originally likely similar to Croats became more SE shifted.
Ofc there were those early Bulgarian incursions, per some Serbia was even totally deserted, but also much of this genetic homogeneity in Serbs is for the same reason as in Albanians, tribal culture and domination of stronger tribes over the weaker tribes. Such culture used to be very common in Montenegro, and in Herzegovina little bit earlier. Still much of Serbs trace their ancestry to Herzegovina and Montenegro. Actually Western half of modern Montenegro is Herzegovina. Montenegro was a small core area of Montenegro 300 years ago..
Regarding the Meglen, very interesting, I find them puzzling. So they are closer to Aromanians. I know in the past some have hypothesized they have some Steppe input, as in Moglen both Pechenegs and Cumans settled. There are some Greeks under I-Y125026>Y128714 , they are from Theodorakion village not far from you but I guess they aren't of Moglen ancestry. I-Y125026 occurs in some Serbs, Bulgarians too, so should be Slavic, but there is one Bessenyei from Hungary and also one from anonymous Cumanian sample from Hungary so not sure what's their ancestry, especially as in Todorci though most had Slavic names there were few which looked Turkic. This is a clade likely descended of Daco-Celtic Kotini/Anarti and they expanded largely with Slavs, some likely moved with Cumano-Pechenegs.
Thus far Aromanians seem genetically isolated, even their most common J-L283 clade is still very distant from Albanians.
Yes Shop might have been the starting point for Proto-Romanians, I don't deny some potential earlier presence of some Latin groups in Romanian areas (like Transylvania), but it seems Balkan incomers had great influence.
Regarding Cetina, the did practice cremation combined with inhumation. On the other hand their neighbor culture where J-L283 was found practiced exclusively inhumation, as did their direct descendants such as Glasinac culture. Archaeologists say these two were clearly different populations. Thanks to these inhumation burials of Cetina I believe there is enough material to test these eventually. Now regarding their Tumulus burial, both Cetina and Posušje cultures had it. But it's origin is Glina III, almost identical burials. This sort of burial was totally unknown to the BB's. J-L283 were likely originally Bell Beakeroid derived, and you can see in autosomal profile of EBA/LBA Dalmatians that these people are BB derived not Yamnaya. But cyst Tumulus was imposed by the Yamnaya it seems.
Regarding L51 in Greeks, Dorians could have had the L51 easily, because it was the L51 heavy central European groups who were among the instigators of the LBA collapse. That's no surprise but based on linguistics Greek should be distantly related to Armenian and like Armenians originally Z2103.
Yes I read about those unofficial finds, it will be interesting to see what was the exact context etc. Again Greeks are not so well tested so thus far few of these clades have been identified.