How can I learn to accept my haplogroup results...

shinyDust

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Location
Tirana
Ethnic group
Illyrised Gallo-Roman
Y-DNA haplogroup
R1b U152
mtDNA haplogroup
H5
When I was patiently waiting for my results I was expecting either EV-13 or J2b2-L283 or some R1b L23-BY116
Or anything else typically albanian.
But I got haplogroup R1b u152-L2
Whaaaat.. I feel so betrayed and like an outsider haha.
I really wished to have EV 13. Isn't that the typical albanian haplogroup.
I still can't believe my results..
It's a bit depressing
What does this imply about my origins..
 
It means your a descended from a Roman who moved into the Balkans in the last 1500 years.
 
Another possibility, among others: Venetians. R-L2, my maternal grandfather's line, has a relatively high frequency in Veneto (especially in Treviso province).
Venetian Albania:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Albania

The term Venezia-albania was used by the republic as a area of governance, it has no indication of the populace, the original people where mostly Dalmatian...............who where replaced over time by croats, serbs and albanians ..................The area today is mostly called Montenegro ..............a venetian word meaning black mountains

last leader was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Viscovich

https://www.lusticabay.com/montenegros-venetian-past

the migration of croats, serbs etc occurred from this period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta_under_the_Balšići
 
When I was patiently waiting for my results I was expecting either EV-13 or J2b2-L283 or some R1b L23-BY116
Or anything else typically albanian.
But I got haplogroup R1b u152-L2
Whaaaat.. I feel so betrayed and like an outsider haha.
I really wished to have EV 13. Isn't that the typical albanian haplogroup.
I still can't believe my results..
It's a bit depressing
What does this imply about my origins..

no haplogroup belongs to any nation or race or ethnicity
 
The term Venezia-albania was used by the republic as a area of governance, it has no indication of the populace, the original people where mostly Dalmatian...............who where replaced over time by croats, serbs and albanians ..................The area today is mostly called Montenegro ..............a venetian word meaning black mountains

last leader was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Viscovich

https://www.lusticabay.com/montenegros-venetian-past

the migration of croats, serbs etc occurred from this period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta_under_the_Balšići
I believe he mentioned Venetian Albania (Albania Veneta) because it was an area presided over by Venice that included Albania (Shkodra and Lezha regions), not because he believes that the region was inhabited solely by Albanians. I believe this region was called "Venetian Albania" because of the fact that it originally spanned from Durres up to Ragusa, and so a pretty large part of Western Albania. And when the cities of Durres, Shkoder and Lezhe were taken in the 15th and 16th Centuries by the Ottomans, Venice didn't want to renounce its claims on Albania.

As for population, it seems that the majority of inhabitants that lived in the urban areas of coastal Montenegro were Italian and Dalmatian speakers whilst the inhabitants of the surrounding villages were Albanian or Serbian speaking. Ottoman records from the 15th Century have shown that the areas of Ulcinj (Ulqin) and Bar (Tivar) had very large Albanian populations, most villages seem to have been predominantly Albanian.
 
no haplogroup belongs to any nation or race or ethnicity
True. That's why I said "Another possibility, among others". R-L2 arrived there in some way. It's an open question how it happened.

The area in question included parts of modern Albania, no?
Obviously people there were not mostly Venetians, and I haven't suggested otherwise. It's just that Venetians could have left some marker in those areas, hence my mention of it as a possibility.
Same for those G-L42 in Corfu and Kytira. Were perhaps taken by Venetians. If so, it could be evidenced in the future with TMRCAs. We'll see.
 
The area in question included parts of modern Albania, no?
From what I understand, that region was only officially called "Venetian Albania" after Venice had lost all of its major holdings in Albania to the Ottomans (Lezha in 1478, Shkodra 1479 and Durres in 1501). This name was used as Venice didn't want to renounce its claims on its former possessions in Albania. During the 16th Century, Venetian Albania only included the coastal regions of Montenegro, with a center around Kotor.
 
Another "possibility" is that it's been there since the Bronze Age. Tribes moving through the area could have included some men with R1b U152-L2. Isn't it pretty common in Hungary, among other areas?

Some of these groups were more inclusive than others. Some men from other tribes were absorbed along the way. It doesn't change a man's identity.
 
I thought that there was a noticeable migration of Romans along the Dalmatian Coast during the Imperial period. Their presence was noticeable all the way until the early 20th century. There are a lot more borrowings from Latin than Greek in the Albanian language. So it stands up to logic that there is some mixing of populations at least along the coast.
 
some of the eastern Halstatt are supposed to have entered the Balkans and merged with local population to form the Illyrians

and then there are the Gauls who entered the Carpathian Basin ca 2,4 ka
they were raiding the Balkans
after the death of Lysimachus, the eire of Alexander the Great they even raided Greece
 
I believe he mentioned Venetian Albania (Albania Veneta) because it was an area presided over by Venice that included Albania (Shkodra and Lezha regions), not because he believes that the region was inhabited solely by Albanians. I believe this region was called "Venetian Albania" because of the fact that it originally spanned from Durres up to Ragusa, and so a pretty large part of Western Albania. And when the cities of Durres, Shkoder and Lezhe were taken in the 15th and 16th Centuries by the Ottomans, Venice didn't want to renounce its claims on Albania.
As for population, it seems that the majority of inhabitants that lived in the urban areas of coastal Montenegro were Italian and Dalmatian speakers whilst the inhabitants of the surrounding villages were Albanian or Serbian speaking. Ottoman records from the 15th Century have shown that the areas of Ulcinj (Ulqin) and Bar (Tivar) had very large Albanian populations, most villages seem to have been predominantly Albanian.
Venice only held shkodra for about 80 years...1396 to about 1478......it was then ruled by the ottomans for over 300 years...

The oeiginal people where dalmatians....ragusa area seperated the 2 dalmatian lands
 
I thought that there was a noticeable migration of Romans along the Dalmatian Coast during the Imperial period. Their presence was noticeable all the way until the early 20th century. There are a lot more borrowings from Latin than Greek in the Albanian language. So it stands up to logic that there is some mixing of populations at least along the coast.
The dalmatian language ......it came from a mix of vulgar latin and illyrian...then it was replaced in time by the venetian language and later replaced by italian language and finally into croatian language

It is stated that the last people to speak dalmatian where matteo bartoli and tuone udaina around the years 1900
 
Venice only held shkodra for about 80 years...1396 to about 1478......it was then ruled by the ottomans for over 300 years...

The oeiginal people where dalmatians....ragusa area seperated the 2 dalmatian lands
Well Venice only held the city of Durres for 109 years, 1392-1501 (not including the short Venetian occupation in 1201 during the Fourth Crusade). Lezha was held by the Venetians for 96 years, between 1386 and 1478. So as a whole Venetian control over major Albanian cities didn't exceed 110 years.

What do you mean by original people? If you go far back enough the Dalmatian Latins weren't the original inhabitants of the region, Illyirc speakers were. I'm talking about the Early Medieval and onward as that's what really matters. During this time period it is pretty clear that Albanian and Serbian speakers were primarily inhabiting the rural regions whilst Latin speakers were primarily occupying the cities and towns. During the Imperial era though, the whole surrounding region was Latin (Dalmatian) speaking.
 
Well Venice only held the city of Durres for 109 years, 1392-1501 (not including the short Venetian occupation in 1201 during the Fourth Crusade). Lezha was held by the Venetians for 96 years, between 1386 and 1478. So as a whole Venetian control over major Albanian cities didn't exceed 110 years.
What do you mean by original people? If you go far back enough the Dalmatian Latins weren't the original inhabitants of the region, Illyirc speakers were. I'm talking about the Early Medieval and onward as that's what really matters. During this time period it is pretty clear that Albanian and Serbian speakers were primarily inhabiting the rural regions whilst Latin speakers were primarily occupying the cities and towns. During the Imperial era though, the whole surrounding region was Latin (Dalmatian) speaking.
Originally they where the delmatae ( dalmatians )...who where replaced by about 40 % by romans after the 4 year illyrian revolt of early AD times.....i have already submitted the census from roman data before...
Dalmatians from AD times where already part roman...which us why their language is also noted as vulgar latin.....same as most italian regions....before italian was created in the 13th century......

below is the roman census at the start of the illyrian revolt and who was involved

 
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Venice only held shkodra for about 80 years...1396 to about 1478......it was then ruled by the ottomans for over 300 years...
The oeiginal people where dalmatians....ragusa area seperated the 2 dalmatian lands
True. That's why I said "Another possibility, among others". R-L2 arrived there in some way. It's an open question how it happened.
The area in question included parts of modern Albania, no?
Obviously people there were not mostly Venetians, and I haven't suggested otherwise. It's just that Venetians could have left some marker in those areas, hence my mention of it as a possibility.
Same for those G-L42 in Corfu and Kytira. Were perhaps taken by Venetians. If so, it could be evidenced in the future with TMRCAs. We'll see.
While those ydna are also in veneto/venice.. there is no evidence that they came from there
 
some of the eastern Halstatt are supposed to have entered the Balkans and merged with local population to form the Illyrians
and then there are the Gauls who entered the Carpathian Basin ca 2,4 ka
they were raiding the Balkans
after the death of Lysimachus, the eire of Alexander the Great they even raided Greece

That's exactly what I meant.

People tend to attribute far too much genetic change to short term military occupation or commercial control. Imo it's a mistake. Even if you see some change in the "y" there's usually very little change in the autosomal make-up.

Of course, general and widespread rape of the women might be a different story. I've always wondered about the long term effects of the mass rape perpetrated by the Soviet forces in Eastern Europe and especially Germany. We have lots of information about what went on in Berlin, for example.

There's no indication of anything like that in this area and time period, though.
 
Venice only held shkodra for about 80 years...1396 to about 1478......it was then ruled by the ottomans for over 300 years...
The oeiginal people where dalmatians....ragusa area seperated the 2 dalmatian lands
some of the eastern Halstatt are supposed to have entered the Balkans and merged with local population to form the Illyrians
and then there are the Gauls who entered the Carpathian Basin ca 2,4 ka
they were raiding the Balkans
after the death of Lysimachus, the eire of Alexander the Great they even raided Greece
I do not know what you mean....halstatt culture was a mix of illyrian and the migrating celts from germany ...mixing together......it is in noricum (east austria)....the celts over time dominated and then eventually moved in a southerny direction eventually clashing with macedonians 600 years later
 
Best thing to do is to test again for subclades below L2. Then maybe you could narrow down on either Romans or Halstatt Celts - the two likeliest options, imo.
 
Curiously, I couldn't find any Albanian in R-U152 Project at FTDNA. It must be really uncommon around there.
Accidently, there're few R-L2 men from Corfu (and also Montenegro).
Whoever left R-L2 in that area (Gauls, Romans, Venetians etc.), the impact must have been little anyway. So apparently there are not "great" possibilities.

@shinyDust
Do you intend to test BigY or akin?

From what I understand, that region was only officially called "Venetian Albania" after Venice had lost all of its major holdings in Albania to the Ottomans (Lezha in 1478, Shkodra 1479 and Durres in 1501). This name was used as Venice didn't want to renounce its claims on its former possessions in Albania. During the 16th Century, Venetian Albania only included the coastal regions of Montenegro, with a center around Kotor.
Indeed. From the link I shared:
"Venetian Albania (Italian: Albania Veneta) was the official term for several possessions of the Republic of Venice in the southeastern Adriatic, encompassing coastal territories in modern northern Albania and southern Montenegro. Several major territorial changes occurred during the Venetian rule in those regions, starting from 1392,[1] and lasting until 1797. By the end of the 15th century, the main possessions in northern Albania had been lost to the expansion of the Ottoman Empire. In spite of that, Venetians did not want to renounce their formal claims to the Albanian coast, and the term Venetian Albania was officially kept in use, designating the remaining Venetian possessions in the coastal regions of modern Montenegro, centered around the Bay of Kotor. Those regions remained under Venetian rule until the fall of the Republic of Venice in 1797. By the Treaty of Campo Formio, the region was transferred to the Habsburg Monarchy."

Another "possibility" is that it's been there since the Bronze Age. Tribes moving through the area could have included some men with R1b U152-L2. Isn't it pretty common in Hungary, among other areas?

Some of these groups were more inclusive than others. Some men from other tribes were absorbed along the way. It doesn't change a man's identity.
Yes. Perhaps we'll never have "the" answer. But as I suggested, if the connection is really recent, TMRCAs could occasionally evidence it, while an hypothetical old presence could be evidenced by Ancient DNA (if we were very lucky).

While those ydna are also in veneto/venice.. there is no evidence that they came from there
It's speculative, yes. That's why I said TMRCAs could evidence it. And "if" it's the case.

Welll, the guy asked what R-L2 implies about his (patrilineal?) origin, and I risk one. That's all.
We already have here BA tribes, Gauls, Romans, Venetians... There must be more. :)

That's exactly what I meant.

People tend to attribute far too much genetic change to short term military occupation or commercial control. Imo it's a mistake. Even if you see some change in the "y" there's usually very little change in the autosomal make-up.

Of course, general and widespread rape of the women might be a different story. I've always wondered about the long term effects of the mass rape perpetrated by the Soviet forces in Eastern Europe and especially Germany. We have lots of information about what went on in Berlin, for example.

There's no indication of anything like that in this area and time period, though.
Some minor historical events must leave genetic traces as well, even if at uniparental markers mainly, but it may be reallly difficult to track them, indeed. HGs such I1 in parts of (South) Italy could exemplify what you said, no? The related event caused an important frequency of the hg without relevant impact on Autosomal.
 

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