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  1. #1
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b U152
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Ethnic group
    Illyrised Gallo-Roman
    Country: Albania



    How can I learn to accept my haplogroup results...

    When I was patiently waiting for my results I was expecting either EV-13 or J2b2-L283 or some R1b L23-BY116
    Or anything else typically albanian.
    But I got haplogroup R1b u152-L2
    Whaaaat.. I feel so betrayed and like an outsider haha.
    I really wished to have EV 13. Isn't that the typical albanian haplogroup.
    I still can't believe my results..
    It's a bit depressing
    What does this imply about my origins..

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b U-152
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    It means your a descended from a Roman who moved into the Balkans in the last 1500 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    It means your a descended from a Roman who moved into the Balkans in the last 1500 years.
    Another possibility, among others: Venetians. R-L2, my maternal grandfather's line, has a relatively high frequency in Veneto (especially in Treviso province).

    Venetian Albania:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Albania

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - BY143483
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Another possibility, among others: Venetians. R-L2, my maternal grandfather's line, has a relatively high frequency in Veneto (especially in Treviso province).
    Venetian Albania:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Albania
    The term Venezia-albania was used by the republic as a area of governance, it has no indication of the populace, the original people where mostly Dalmatian...............who where replaced over time by croats, serbs and albanians ..................The area today is mostly called Montenegro ..............a venetian word meaning black mountains

    last leader was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Viscovich

    https://www.lusticabay.com/montenegros-venetian-past

    the migration of croats, serbs etc occurred from this period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta_u...%C5%A1i%C4%87i
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-P58
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1l

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    The term Venezia-albania was used by the republic as a area of governance, it has no indication of the populace, the original people where mostly Dalmatian...............who where replaced over time by croats, serbs and albanians ..................The area today is mostly called Montenegro ..............a venetian word meaning black mountains

    last leader was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Viscovich

    https://www.lusticabay.com/montenegros-venetian-past

    the migration of croats, serbs etc occurred from this period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta_u...%C5%A1i%C4%87i
    I believe he mentioned Venetian Albania (Albania Veneta) because it was an area presided over by Venice that included Albania (Shkodra and Lezha regions), not because he believes that the region was inhabited solely by Albanians. I believe this region was called "Venetian Albania" because of the fact that it originally spanned from Durres up to Ragusa, and so a pretty large part of Western Albania. And when the cities of Durres, Shkoder and Lezhe were taken in the 15th and 16th Centuries by the Ottomans, Venice didn't want to renounce its claims on Albania.

    As for population, it seems that the majority of inhabitants that lived in the urban areas of coastal Montenegro were Italian and Dalmatian speakers whilst the inhabitants of the surrounding villages were Albanian or Serbian speaking. Ottoman records from the 15th Century have shown that the areas of Ulcinj (Ulqin) and Bar (Tivar) had very large Albanian populations, most villages seem to have been predominantly Albanian.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    H95a1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    I believe he mentioned Venetian Albania (Albania Veneta) because it was an area presided over by Venice that included Albania (Shkodra and Lezha regions), not because he believes that the region was inhabited solely by Albanians. I believe this region was called "Venetian Albania" because of the fact that it originally spanned from Durres up to Ragusa, and so a pretty large part of Western Albania. And when the cities of Durres, Shkoder and Lezhe were taken in the 15th and 16th Centuries by the Ottomans, Venice didn't want to renounce its claims on Albania.
    As for population, it seems that the majority of inhabitants that lived in the urban areas of coastal Montenegro were Italian and Dalmatian speakers whilst the inhabitants of the surrounding villages were Albanian or Serbian speaking. Ottoman records from the 15th Century have shown that the areas of Ulcinj (Ulqin) and Bar (Tivar) had very large Albanian populations, most villages seem to have been predominantly Albanian.
    Venice only held shkodra for about 80 years...1396 to about 1478......it was then ruled by the ottomans for over 300 years...

    The oeiginal people where dalmatians....ragusa area seperated the 2 dalmatian lands

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Curiously, I couldn't find any Albanian in R-U152 Project at FTDNA. It must be really uncommon around there.
    Accidently, there're few R-L2 men from Corfu (and also Montenegro).
    Whoever left R-L2 in that area (Gauls, Romans, Venetians etc.), the impact must have been little anyway. So apparently there are not "great" possibilities.

    @shinyDust
    Do you intend to test BigY or akin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    From what I understand, that region was only officially called "Venetian Albania" after Venice had lost all of its major holdings in Albania to the Ottomans (Lezha in 1478, Shkodra 1479 and Durres in 1501). This name was used as Venice didn't want to renounce its claims on its former possessions in Albania. During the 16th Century, Venetian Albania only included the coastal regions of Montenegro, with a center around Kotor.
    Indeed. From the link I shared:
    "Venetian Albania (Italian: Albania Veneta) was the official term for several possessions of the Republic of Venice in the southeastern Adriatic, encompassing coastal territories in modern northern Albania and southern Montenegro. Several major territorial changes occurred during the Venetian rule in those regions, starting from 1392,[1] and lasting until 1797. By the end of the 15th century, the main possessions in northern Albania had been lost to the expansion of the Ottoman Empire. In spite of that, Venetians did not want to renounce their formal claims to the Albanian coast, and the term Venetian Albania was officially kept in use, designating the remaining Venetian possessions in the coastal regions of modern Montenegro, centered around the Bay of Kotor. Those regions remained under Venetian rule until the fall of the Republic of Venice in 1797. By the Treaty of Campo Formio, the region was transferred to the Habsburg Monarchy."

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Another "possibility" is that it's been there since the Bronze Age. Tribes moving through the area could have included some men with R1b U152-L2. Isn't it pretty common in Hungary, among other areas?

    Some of these groups were more inclusive than others. Some men from other tribes were absorbed along the way. It doesn't change a man's identity.
    Yes. Perhaps we'll never have "the" answer. But as I suggested, if the connection is really recent, TMRCAs could occasionally evidence it, while an hypothetical old presence could be evidenced by Ancient DNA (if we were very lucky).

    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    While those ydna are also in veneto/venice.. there is no evidence that they came from there
    It's speculative, yes. That's why I said TMRCAs could evidence it. And "if" it's the case.

    Welll, the guy asked what R-L2 implies about his (patrilineal?) origin, and I risk one. That's all.
    We already have here BA tribes, Gauls, Romans, Venetians... There must be more. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That's exactly what I meant.

    People tend to attribute far too much genetic change to short term military occupation or commercial control. Imo it's a mistake. Even if you see some change in the "y" there's usually very little change in the autosomal make-up.

    Of course, general and widespread rape of the women might be a different story. I've always wondered about the long term effects of the mass rape perpetrated by the Soviet forces in Eastern Europe and especially Germany. We have lots of information about what went on in Berlin, for example.

    There's no indication of anything like that in this area and time period, though.
    Some minor historical events must leave genetic traces as well, even if at uniparental markers mainly, but it may be reallly difficult to track them, indeed. HGs such I1 in parts of (South) Italy could exemplify what you said, no? The related event caused an important frequency of the hg without relevant impact on Autosomal.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Curiously, I couldn't find any Albanian in R-U152 Project at FTDNA. It must be really uncommon around there.
    Accidently, there're few R-L2 men from Corfu (and also Montenegro).
    Whoever left R-L2 in that area (Gauls, Romans, Venetians etc.), the impact must have been little anyway. So apparently there are not "great" possibilities.

    @shinyDust
    Do you intend to test BigY or akin?

    Indeed. From the link I shared:
    "Venetian Albania (Italian: Albania Veneta) was the official term for several possessions of the Republic of Venice in the southeastern Adriatic, encompassing coastal territories in modern northern Albania and southern Montenegro. Several major territorial changes occurred during the Venetian rule in those regions, starting from 1392,[1] and lasting until 1797. By the end of the 15th century, the main possessions in northern Albania had been lost to the expansion of the Ottoman Empire. In spite of that, Venetians did not want to renounce their formal claims to the Albanian coast, and the term Venetian Albania was officially kept in use, designating the remaining Venetian possessions in the coastal regions of modern Montenegro, centered around the Bay of Kotor. Those regions remained under Venetian rule until the fall of the Republic of Venice in 1797. By the Treaty of Campo Formio, the region was transferred to the Habsburg Monarchy."

    Yes. Perhaps we'll never have "the" answer. But as I suggested, if the connection is really recent, TMRCAs could occasionally evidence it, while an hypothetical old presence could be evidenced by Ancient DNA (if we were very lucky).

    It's speculative, yes. That's why I said TMRCAs could evidence it. And "if" it's the case.

    Welll, the guy asked what R-L2 implies about his (patrilineal?) origin, and I risk one. That's all.
    We already have here BA tribes, Gauls, Romans, Venetians... There must be more. :)

    Some minor historical events must leave genetic traces as well, even if at uniparental markers mainly, but it may be reallly difficult to track them, indeed. HGs such I1 in parts of (South) Italy could exemplify what you said, no? The related event caused an important frequency of the hg without relevant impact on Autosomal.
    Exactly so. Look at the Montgomerys of Scotland. They're E-V13, which, if the stories of their origins in Wales in the early Middle Ages is true, makes some sense. Eight hundred years after the arrival of the male line ancestor in Scotland, are they any different from all the other Scottish clans in their approximate geographic area? I doubt it.

    One of the clans is even reported to be E-M81, at least the "noble" part of it.

    Richard III turned out to be G2a, which no one expected.

    I don't see how it matters to their "ethnic" identity.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Exactly so. Look at the Montgomerys of Scotland. They're E-V13, which, if the stories of their origins in Wales in the early Middle Ages is true, makes some sense. Eight hundred years after the arrival of the male line ancestor in Scotland, are they any different from all the other Scottish clans in their approximate geographic area? I doubt it.
    One of the clans is even reported to be E-M81, at least the "noble" part of it.
    Richard III turned out to be G2a, which no one expected.
    I don't see how it matters to their "ethnic" identity.
    Yes it was quite surprising when Richard the third turned out G2a. I was thinking R1b myself.
    Species adapt to their environment,
    and those who do so best (the fittest) survive and prosper the most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Well, the guy asked what R-L2 implies about his (patrilineal?) origin, and I risk one. That's all.
    The speculation remains, but I firstly answered to New Englander and may have lost the focus. It seems he wasn't referring to his patrilineal origin after all; to how the clade was taken to Albania.
    I don't see either how it matters to his ethnic identity.

    @shinyDust
    Torzio is right.

    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    no haplogroup belongs to any nation or race or ethnicity
    Last edited by Regio X; 15-01-20 at 14:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Curiously, I couldn't find any Albanian in R-U152 Project at FTDNA. It must be really uncommon around there.
    Accidently, there're few R-L2 men from Corfu (and also Montenegro).
    I have seen a number of Albanians that are U152+ on 23andme, though none seem to have tested with FTDNA or Yseq. Most of them are from Vlore and Diber (especially Peshkopi area).

    Interestingly, there seems to have been a Gheg Albanian sample from an academic paper/study who was R-L2>FGC13617. So far FGC13617 includes a Montenegrin, a Serb from Eastern Serbia and a Greek from Corfu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    I have seen a number of Albanians that are U152+ on 23andme, though none seem to have tested with FTDNA or Yseq. Most of them are from Vlore and Diber (especially Peshkopi area).

    Interestingly, there seems to have been a Gheg Albanian sample from an academic paper/study who was R-L2>FGC13617. So far FGC13617 includes a Montenegrin, a Serb from Eastern Serbia and a Greek from Corfu.
    Yes, I saw these R-L2->R-FGC13617 men yesterday in the FTDNA Project. They seem close to each other. The MDKA of the Greek had a name that looks Italian(ized?).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Yes, I saw these R-L2->R-FGC13617 men yesterday in the FTDNA Project. They seem close to each other. The MDKA of the Greek had a name that looks Italian(ized?).
    The origin of the Greek FGC13617 samples from Corfu is pretty interesting. They are all from the same family that seems to be descended from one of the noble houses of Corfu that established themselves during Venetian rule. I couldn't find much in regards to their ethnic origins, they may be of local Greek or Italian (Venetian) origin. It is possible that they originally came from Heraklion, Crete, as it is mentioned that a branch of the Armeni from Heraklion moved to Corfu. Seems like some members of this family were born in Dalmatia and were actually Catholic Christians. Some of the early members of this family also had pretty Italian-sounding names, though some had Greek names as well. I guess it's best to ask members of this family directly in regards to their ethnic origin. https://www.geni.com/projects/Armenis-family/54347

    In regards to the Montenegrin, he is from Herzeg Novi but I read some information stating that his family arrived from the Moraca region of Eastern Montenegro during the 17th Century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shinyDust View Post
    When I was patiently waiting for my results I was expecting either EV-13 or J2b2-L283 or some R1b L23-BY116
    Or anything else typically albanian.
    But I got haplogroup R1b u152-L2
    Whaaaat.. I feel so betrayed and like an outsider haha.
    I really wished to have EV 13. Isn't that the typical albanian haplogroup.
    I still can't believe my results..
    It's a bit depressing
    What does this imply about my origins..
    no haplogroup belongs to any nation or race or ethnicity

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    no haplogroup belongs to any nation or race or ethnicity
    True. That's why I said "Another possibility, among others". R-L2 arrived there in some way. It's an open question how it happened.

    The area in question included parts of modern Albania, no?
    Obviously people there were not mostly Venetians, and I haven't suggested otherwise. It's just that Venetians could have left some marker in those areas, hence my mention of it as a possibility.
    Same for those G-L42 in Corfu and Kytira. Were perhaps taken by Venetians. If so, it could be evidenced in the future with TMRCAs. We'll see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    The area in question included parts of modern Albania, no?
    From what I understand, that region was only officially called "Venetian Albania" after Venice had lost all of its major holdings in Albania to the Ottomans (Lezha in 1478, Shkodra 1479 and Durres in 1501). This name was used as Venice didn't want to renounce its claims on its former possessions in Albania. During the 16th Century, Venetian Albania only included the coastal regions of Montenegro, with a center around Kotor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Venice only held shkodra for about 80 years...1396 to about 1478......it was then ruled by the ottomans for over 300 years...
    The oeiginal people where dalmatians....ragusa area seperated the 2 dalmatian lands
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    True. That's why I said "Another possibility, among others". R-L2 arrived there in some way. It's an open question how it happened.
    The area in question included parts of modern Albania, no?
    Obviously people there were not mostly Venetians, and I haven't suggested otherwise. It's just that Venetians could have left some marker in those areas, hence my mention of it as a possibility.
    Same for those G-L42 in Corfu and Kytira. Were perhaps taken by Venetians. If so, it could be evidenced in the future with TMRCAs. We'll see.
    While those ydna are also in veneto/venice.. there is no evidence that they came from there

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    Another "possibility" is that it's been there since the Bronze Age. Tribes moving through the area could have included some men with R1b U152-L2. Isn't it pretty common in Hungary, among other areas?

    Some of these groups were more inclusive than others. Some men from other tribes were absorbed along the way. It doesn't change a man's identity.

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    I thought that there was a noticeable migration of Romans along the Dalmatian Coast during the Imperial period. Their presence was noticeable all the way until the early 20th century. There are a lot more borrowings from Latin than Greek in the Albanian language. So it stands up to logic that there is some mixing of populations at least along the coast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I thought that there was a noticeable migration of Romans along the Dalmatian Coast during the Imperial period. Their presence was noticeable all the way until the early 20th century. There are a lot more borrowings from Latin than Greek in the Albanian language. So it stands up to logic that there is some mixing of populations at least along the coast.
    The dalmatian language ......it came from a mix of vulgar latin and illyrian...then it was replaced in time by the venetian language and later replaced by italian language and finally into croatian language

    It is stated that the last people to speak dalmatian where matteo bartoli and tuone udaina around the years 1900

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    some of the eastern Halstatt are supposed to have entered the Balkans and merged with local population to form the Illyrians

    and then there are the Gauls who entered the Carpathian Basin ca 2,4 ka
    they were raiding the Balkans
    after the death of Lysimachus, the eire of Alexander the Great they even raided Greece

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    some of the eastern Halstatt are supposed to have entered the Balkans and merged with local population to form the Illyrians
    and then there are the Gauls who entered the Carpathian Basin ca 2,4 ka
    they were raiding the Balkans
    after the death of Lysimachus, the eire of Alexander the Great they even raided Greece
    That's exactly what I meant.

    People tend to attribute far too much genetic change to short term military occupation or commercial control. Imo it's a mistake. Even if you see some change in the "y" there's usually very little change in the autosomal make-up.

    Of course, general and widespread rape of the women might be a different story. I've always wondered about the long term effects of the mass rape perpetrated by the Soviet forces in Eastern Europe and especially Germany. We have lots of information about what went on in Berlin, for example.

    There's no indication of anything like that in this area and time period, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Venice only held shkodra for about 80 years...1396 to about 1478......it was then ruled by the ottomans for over 300 years...
    The oeiginal people where dalmatians....ragusa area seperated the 2 dalmatian lands
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    some of the eastern Halstatt are supposed to have entered the Balkans and merged with local population to form the Illyrians
    and then there are the Gauls who entered the Carpathian Basin ca 2,4 ka
    they were raiding the Balkans
    after the death of Lysimachus, the eire of Alexander the Great they even raided Greece
    I do not know what you mean....halstatt culture was a mix of illyrian and the migrating celts from germany ...mixing together......it is in noricum (east austria)....the celts over time dominated and then eventually moved in a southerny direction eventually clashing with macedonians 600 years later

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    Best thing to do is to test again for subclades below L2. Then maybe you could narrow down on either Romans or Halstatt Celts - the two likeliest options, imo.
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    What really stands out to me from that Roman census of the rebels is how few inhabitants there were in this rather large geographical area. Which to me it points out how easy it would be to invade with a relatively small raiding party let's say 10-20,000 men and how large of a genetic footprint it would have.

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