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Thread: Who were the Illyrians?

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    Who were the Illyrians?



    Didn't know if everyone was familiar with this paper so I thought I'd post it.

    See:
    file:///C:/Users/Owner/Favorites/Doc...phic_disco.pdf

    People will agree or disagree. Please keep it civil or I'll have to close the discussion.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Didn't know if everyone was familiar with this paper so I thought I'd post it.

    See:
    file:///C:/Users/Owner/Favorites/Doc...phic_disco.pdf

    People will agree or disagree. Please keep it civil or I'll have to close the discussion.
    I can’t see the document...


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    I cannot see it....but it is with academia group, along with 4 other papers regarding either dalmatians, pannonians, liburbians and raetians
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    I cannot see it....but it is with academia group, along with 4 other papers regarding either dalmatians, pannonians, liburbians and raetians

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    The people who are Illyrians and Celts”: Strabo and the identities of the ‘barbarians’ from Illyricum
    Danijel Dzino
    Danijel Dzino

    Is this the title of the paper ?

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    No, the title is ‘Illyrians’ in ancient ethnographic discourse by Danijel Dzino. You can't access the article? Maybe try here, direct pdf link.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I can’t see the document...


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    Sorry, Blevins, I had already downloaded it.

    It's the paper the others are describing.

    Just download the pdf to read it.

    https://www.academia.edu/10694330/_I...phic_discourse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Sorry, Blevins, I had already downloaded it.

    It's the paper the others are describing.

    Just download the pdf to read it.

    https://www.academia.edu/10694330/_I...phic_discourse
    Thanks Angela, read and did not see anything new from the old discussion. I hoped for new genetic evidence.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Thanks Angela, read and did not see anything new from the old discussion. I hoped for new genetic evidence.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    No, unfortunately we don't have samples from the right time period yet.

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    It's a good paper listing chronologically when the oldest mention of the term "illyrian" first comes from (fairly late, ~400 years BC). The roman administration later named the entire west balkans illyricum, so it obscures the diversity of languages.

    According to linguists, the north west illyrians like Liburnian's, were on the Italo-Celtic branch. Proto-Albanian is not on this branch and has a much different history.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    No such thing as Illyrians but a lot of different tribes in what used to be Yugoslavia + Albania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    No such thing as Illyrians but a lot of different tribes in what used to be Yugoslavia + Albania.
    You cannot assign a label to totally different tribes.

    It was most likely related tribes which Greeks called them Illyrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    You cannot assign a label to totally different tribes.

    It was most likely related tribes which Greeks called them Illyrian.
    We have no idea whether the North "Illyrian" tribes could even communicate with the Southern "Illyrian" tribes. It was a label assigned to the people north of Macedonia. Not like Herodotus went up and down Illyria visiting each and every tribe and cataloging their population strength, their settlements, their occupation, their culture, their language. It's all 2nd, 3rd and 4th hand knowledge.

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    We can supose a genuine "Illyrian" tribe existed, known by Ancients. After, by a well known process (look at "Celts" of S-E Gaul/France) the name has been extended to neighbouring tribes, whatever the real links between all them. After that came the Roman political regionalization, and more extension of some supposed ethnic ames to territories (like Aremorica in Gaul, different before and after the Roman colonization).
    at first Bretagne was the territory gained by Bretons. Todate Breton means a Bretagne inhabitant, whatever the true origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    We have no idea whether the North "Illyrian" tribes could even communicate with the Southern "Illyrian" tribes. It was a label assigned to the people north of Macedonia. Not like Herodotus went up and down Illyria visiting each and every tribe and cataloging their population strength, their settlements, their occupation, their culture, their language. It's all 2nd, 3rd and 4th hand knowledge.
    But we do have a census by Romans on the number of "illyrians" in the year 4AD, that is males of fighting age

    It shows that Dalmatians where the main tribe , followed by Pannonians...........I refer to numbers prior to the 4 year Illyrian revolt against Rome

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    There must be a reason why they were called so, otherwise by your logic they could have called everyone North of Macedonia Illyrian.

    That's silly logic. We don'y have first hand evidence but we can still deduce.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    There must be a reason why they were called so, otherwise by your logic they could have called everyone North of Macedonia Illyrian.

    That's silly logic. We don'y have first hand evidence but we can still deduce.
    I think it is only from a roman term for an area of land which they called Illyricum..............similar to today iberia represent spanish and portuguese....or British, an area of britain which has many different people

    But the roman census of that illyrian area does show the tribes and the fighting numbers for each tribe

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    Have any Illyrian remains been found and genetically tested? I want to finally put to rest how much Illyrian blood South Slavs have and if Albanians are the true standard bearers of this clan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian Boss View Post
    Have any Illyrian remains been found and genetically tested? I want to finally put to rest how much Illyrian blood South Slavs have and if Albanians are the true standard bearers of this clan.
    the roman census of illyrian before the 4 year war, which after the roman victory a very high percentage of "illyrians" where dispersed to other parts of the roman empire



    Salona is modern Solin , Croatia

    Narona is modern Neretva area in Croatia

    names of tribes on the left, you can see that Salona has the bulk of the "Illyrian" population

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian Boss View Post
    Have any Illyrian remains been found and genetically tested? I want to finally put to rest how much Illyrian blood South Slavs have and if Albanians are the true standard bearers of this clan.
    In terms of evidence there already is based on the direct Y-Chromosome. Dalmatia, Bronze Age Proto-Illyrian was found bearing J2b-L283(Most commonly found in Albanians). Autosomally speaking, it was more North-italian shifted, suggesting Proto-Albanians or there ancestors were probably more western shifted in antiquity.

    As far as South Slavs go, most Illyrian ancestry is by proxy(acquired through marrying native women). While not confirmed Illyrian, it is widely accepted that E-V13 correlated to some subset of Thraco-Illyrian tribes.

    Most potential Illyrian ancestry in South Slavs, via the Y-Chromosome are those carrying E-V13. J2b as far as I know is far less common in South Slavs, but some Croatians have J2b-L283. As far as "blood", all Balkan people bear Illyrian or Thracian blood.

    As far as bearing the Y-Chromosome of Illyrians, Albanians seem to have the highest percentage, followed by Montenegrins and Southern Serbs. Not to mention they are the closest surviving culture/ethnic similitude to the paleo-balkan tribes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    the roman census of illyrian before the 4 year war, which after the roman victory a very high percentage of "illyrians" where dispersed to other parts of the roman empire



    Salona is modern Solin , Croatia

    Narona is modern Neretva area in Croatia

    names of tribes on the left, you can see that Salona has the bulk of the "Illyrian" population
    I thought that only the Northern "Illyrians" revolted, right. The southern tribes never did. Also were not the northern tribes heavily admixed with Celts. I know that there was a Celtic Band under Brennus that knocked around in Thrace and Greece for about 100 years in the 3rd century BC but I seem to remember that the north "Illyrian" tribes were influenced by the Celts a lot earlier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I thought that only the Northern "Illyrians" revolted, right. The southern tribes never did. Also were not the northern tribes heavily admixed with Celts. I know that there was a Celtic Band under Brennus that knocked around in Thrace and Greece for about 100 years in the 3rd century BC but I seem to remember that the north "Illyrian" tribes were influenced by the Celts a lot earlier.
    The NO tribes where not in the revolt, others where

    says 30,000 southern Illyrians where not in the revolt .....................

    and Dindari ............Dindari are the celtic Scordisci Illyrian in the south ( serbia )




    Remember the Roman census only took able fighting aged men .............does not include the old, children or women

    It seems also that the northern and central "illyrian" tribes tattooed their bodies like their northern neighbours the celts and the Daunians in Foggia Italy ( Daunians are the main group/tribe of the Messapics )

    I have already put an Academia group paper ( on this forum ) on this Daunian and Iapodes ( northern Illyrian ) group who tattooed their bodies, including the women


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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    The NO tribes where not in the revolt, others where

    says 30,000 southern Illyrians where not in the revolt .....................

    and Dindari ............Dindari are the celtic Scordisci Illyrian in the south ( serbia )




    Remember the Roman census only took able fighting aged men .............does not include the old, children or women

    It seems also that the northern and central "illyrian" tribes tattooed their bodies like their northern neighbours the celts and the Daunians in Foggia Italy ( Daunians are the main group/tribe of the Messapics )

    I have already put an Academia group paper ( on this forum ) on this Daunian and Iapodes ( northern Illyrian ) group who tattooed their bodies, including the women

    Are there any records on where the rebelling tribes ended up after they were defeated? They were dispersed all over the empire. The Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman emperors moved populations around quite a bit to repopulate depopulated areas. They also gave land grants and roman citizenship to retiring war veterans. While most of the veterans retired in their home territories some were encouraged to settle elsewhere to serve as the eyes and ears of the empire or become the tax collectors.

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