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Thread: Ancient J2 samples in Europe, Pre-Phoenecian

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    Ancient J2 samples in Europe, Pre-Phoenician

    This is my posting of Y-DNA Haplogroup J2 in Ancient Europeans before Phoenician exploration and settlement. The reason for it being Pre-Phoenician is so that we can try to pin down which subclades of J2 are due to more recent classical/historical migrations, and which are due to more ancient, pre-historic migrations. I had written an almost identical list to this one on Anthrogenica's The History of J2 forum. This list is the most current incarnation. If you would like to contribute or help me correct errors and find more accurate information, I would appreciate the assistance. Here is what I have garnered so far:

    1. R17 Y-DNA: J2a-PreY29673, originally reported as J-M304, mtDNA: U8b1b, Neolithic, Ripabianca di Monterado, Marche, Italy, 5324-5223 BCE. Sources: Antonio et al. 2019, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Axo/edit#gid=0. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post628211

    2. R19 Y-DNA: J2a-S11842*, originally reported as J2a-L26, mtDNA: U5b3a1, Neolithic, Ripabianca di Monterado, Marche, Italy, 5345-5221 BCE. Sources: Antonio et al. 2019, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Axo/edit#gid=0. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post628211

    3. I5068 Y-DNA: J2a-Z6048(xS15572), originally reported as J2, mtDNA: T2b23, LBK Austria, 5500-4775 BCE. Source: Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post354282

    4. I5207 Y-DNA: J2a-Z6048(xFGC61600,S15572), originally reported as J2a, mtDNA: H67, LBK Austria, 5500-4500 BCE. Source: Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....318#post354318

    5. I5078 Y-DNA: J2a-SK1363(xZ36827,Y14435), originally reported as J2a1, mtDNA: H10, Sopot MN, Croatia, 5000-4800 BCE/4692-4546 BCE. Source: Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post359864

    6. I1902/FEB3a Y-DNA: J2a-Z6055, originally reported as J2a, mtDNA: H44b, Lengyel LN, Hungary, 4800-4500 BCE. Source: Lipson et al. 2017. Raw data check: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1902/

    7. I0070/Lasithi2 Y-DNA: J2a-Y151557, originally reported as J2a-M319, mtDNA: H13a1a, Minoan Lasithi, Greece, 2400-1700 BCE/2000-1700 BCE. Sources: Lazaridis et al. 2017, Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data checks: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0070/, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post636750

    8. I0073/Lasithi7 Y-DNA: J2a-Y151557, originally repoted as J2a1(xab1ab2cehi), mtDNA: H1bm, Minoan Lasithi, Greece, 2400-1700 BCE/2000-1700 BCE. Sources: Lazaridis et al. 2017, Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data checks: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0073/, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post636750

    9. I4331 Y-DNA: J2b-FT92472(xZ38241,BY48225), originally reported as J2b2a-L283, mtDNA: I1a1, Croatia EMBA, 1700-1500 BCE/1631-1521 BCE. Sources: Mathieson et al. 2017, Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-a...on-et-al-2018/

    10. I9041/Galatas4 Y-DNA: J2a-Z6057, originally reported as J2a1(xab1b2ceghi), mtDNA: X2, Mycenaean Greece, 1700-1200 BCE. Source: Lazaridis et al. 2017. Raw data checks: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i9041/, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post531745

    11. ORC003 Y-DNA: J2b-YP157, originally reported as J2b2a1, mtDNA: K1a4a1, Nuragic Culture, Sardinia, Italy, 1369-1128 BCE. Source: Marcus et al. 2019. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post637286

    12. ORC007 Y-DNA: J2b-YP91, originally reported as J2b2a1, mtDNA: H1e1a, Nuragic Culture, Sardinia, Italy, 1285-1127 BCE. Source: Marcus et al. 2019. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post637286

    13. I1504/BR2/HUNG381 Y-DNA: J2a-Y17946*, originally reported as J2a1, mtDNA: K1a1a, Kyjatice Culture, Hungary LBA, 1270-1110 BCE. Sources: Gamba et al. 2014, Mathieson et al. 2017. Raw data check: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946*/

    14. ORC008 Y-DNA: J2b-Z600*, originally reported as J2b2a1, mtDNA: H1, Nuragic Culture, Sardinia, Italy, 1191-999 BCE. Source: Marcus et al. 2019. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post637286
    Last edited by Jack Johnson; 24-01-20 at 19:52.

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    very interesting, so J2 arrived in Europe in the Neolithic era.

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    Thanks for the comment. Is there anyway I can fix the format of the initial post? I hate how it is all scrunched to the left side. I would like it to take up the whole text box.

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    Thanks to Principe, I have now updated my original post. There have been a few other slight changes in the links too. Here is a good link if any of you are interested in ancient Europeans with Y-DNA J2: https://j2-m172.info/links/scientific-papers/


    1. R17 Y-DNA: J2a-PreY29673, originally reported as J-M304, mtDNA: U8b1b, Neolithic, Ripabianca di Monterado, Marche, Italy, 5324-5223 BCE. Sources: Antonio et al. 2019, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Axo/edit#gid=0. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post628211

    2. R19 Y-DNA: J2a-S11842*, originally reported as J2a-L26, mtDNA: U5b3a1, Neolithic, Ripabianca di Monterado, Marche, Italy, 5345-5221 BCE. Sources: Antonio et al. 2019, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Axo/edit#gid=0. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post628211

    3. I5068 Y-DNA: J2a-Z6048(xS15572), originally reported as J2, mtDNA: T2b23, LBK Austria, 5500-4775 BCE. Source: Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post354282

    4. I5207 Y-DNA: J2a-Z6048(xFGC61600,S15572), originally reported as J2a, mtDNA: H67, LBK Austria, 5500-4500 BCE. Source: Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....318#post354318

    5. I5078 Y-DNA: J2a-SK1363(xZ36827,Y14435), originally reported as J2a1, mtDNA: H10, Sopot MN, Croatia, 5000-4800 BCE/4692-4546 BCE. Source: Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post359864

    6. I1902/FEB3a Y-DNA: J2a-Z6055, originally reported as J2a, mtDNA: H44b, Lengyel LN, Hungary, 4800-4500 BCE. Source: Lipson et al. 2017. Raw data check: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1902/

    7. I0070/Lasithi2 Y-DNA: J2a-Y151557, originally reported as J2a-M319, mtDNA: H13a1a, Minoan Lasithi, Greece, 2400-1700 BCE/2000-1700 BCE. Sources: Lazaridis et al. 2017, Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data checks: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0070/, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post636750

    8. I0073/Lasithi7 Y-DNA: J2a-Y151557, originally repoted as J2a1(xab1ab2cehi), mtDNA: H1bm, Minoan Lasithi, Greece, 2400-1700 BCE/2000-1700 BCE. Sources: Lazaridis et al. 2017, Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data checks: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0073/, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post636750

    9. I4331 Y-DNA: J2b-FT92472(xZ38241,BY48225), originally reported as J2b2a-L283, mtDNA: I1a1, Croatia EMBA, 1700-1500 BCE/1631-1521 BCE. Sources: Mathieson et al. 2017, Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-a...on-et-al-2018/

    10. I9041/Galatas4 Y-DNA: J2a-Z6057, originally reported as J2a1(xab1b2ceghi), mtDNA: X2, Mycenaean Greece, 1700-1200 BCE. Source: Lazaridis et al. 2017. Raw data checks: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i9041/, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post531745

    11. ORC003 Y-DNA: J2b-YP157, originally reported as J2b2a1, mtDNA: K1a4a1, Nuragic Culture, Sardinia, Italy, 1369-1128 BCE. Source: Marcus et al. 2019. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post637286

    12. ORC007 Y-DNA: J2b-YP91, originally reported as J2b2a1, mtDNA: H1e1a, Nuragic Culture, Sardinia, Italy, 1285-1127 BCE. Source: Marcus et al. 2019. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post637286

    13. I1504/BR2/HUNG381 Y-DNA: J2a-Y17946*, originally reported as J2a1, mtDNA: K1a1a, Kyjatice Culture, Hungary LBA, 1270-1110 BCE. Sources: Gamba et al. 2014, Mathieson et al. 2017. Raw data check: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946*/

    14. ORC008 Y-DNA: J2b-Z600*, originally reported as J2b2a1, mtDNA: H1, Nuragic Culture, Sardinia, Italy, 1191-999 BCE. Source: Marcus et al. 2019. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post637286
    Last edited by Jack Johnson; 24-01-20 at 19:22.

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    Thank you for this interesting information, it is really helpful and useful :)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Very interesting. I seem to understand that the more ancient J2 samples are discovered, the more there are reasons to review models and theories of populations, some of which were born in a too simplified, hasty mode or perhaps with propaganda reasons. As most wise say "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

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    Thank you for your response. That is my view as well. When more data is revealed such as that collected from Fernandes et al. 2019, we will probably get a few more J2a and/or J2b samples from ancient Sardinia and Sicily/Southern Italy. I remember a time when people thought that J2 was not a Neolithic lineage, but rather a Steppe derived lineage, or even a remnant of the settlement of Arabic peoples, Phoenicians/Carthaginians, and North African Muslims. Well as we see with the Neolithic examples of J2a-Z6048 and J2a-Z6055, as well as a few other lineages such as J2a2-PreY29673 and J2a-S11842*, that was a flat-out incorrect assumption. These are exciting times for paleogenetic research, no longer are the days of making baseless assumptions on ancient population dynamics, based on the genetics of modern populations.

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    Whoa, J2b in Sardinia?

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    https://phylogeographer.com/j-l283-t...sia-to-europe/

    J2b L283 appears to be connected to early Bronze Age migrations of PIE people from the Steppe to the Balkans. Oldest ancient L283 sample is from here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabardino-Balkaria.
    The next oldest sample is the aforementioned sample from the Dalmatian highlands in modern day Croatia: https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-a...on-et-al-2018/

    Also, the recently discovered Etruscan (2700 years old) belongs to J2b L283 CTS6190, just downstream from the Dalmatian L283, who is on the J-Z38240 branch: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

    I don’t think L283 was present in the Steppe for very long. Based on what more knowledgeable researchers are seeing, it appears it likely came from somewhere in the Caucasus Mountains, moved north into the southern Steppe (southern Russia and Ukraine), mixed with people from the Steppe for a short while, and then rapidly expanded westward from there into the Balkans and southeastern Europe.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    https://phylogeographer.com/j-l283-t...sia-to-europe/

    J2b L283 appears to be connected to early Bronze Age migrations of PIE people from the Steppe to the Balkans. Oldest ancient L283 sample is from here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabardino-Balkaria.
    The next oldest sample is the aforementioned sample from the Dalmatian highlands in modern day Croatia.

    Also, the recently discovered Etruscan (2700 years old) belongs to J2b L283 CTS6190, just downstream from the Dalmatian L283, who is on the J-Z38240 branch: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

    I don’t think L283 was present in the Steppe for very long. Based on what more knowledgeable researchers are seeing, it appears it likely came from somewhere in the Caucasus Mountains, moved north into the southern Steppe (southern Russia and Ukraine), mixed with people from the Steppe for a short while, and then rapidly expanded westward from there into the Balkans and southeastern Europe.
    The area is now under the
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkars

    same place as my marker of T1a2 branch is said to have formed................this was discussed before ............it is a north-caucasus group in the mountains
    you should find it appearing also in modern Moldovia or north romanian lands
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Jack: Nice work. Kudos. I have a question, I am not a member at the Anthrogenica site but from what I gathered, there have been some lets see if I can say this charitably Northern vs. Southern Europe sort of conflicts, etc. How did those folks take the J2 being present in Europe, even outside Italy, that far back and in countries like Hungary, Austria and as far back as Neolithic Italy?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Those I have spoken to on the aforementioned forum on Anthrogenica, have been nothing but cordial and professional. I have observed no political or ethno-centric babble in any of the findings and/or discussions on the forum, and I have read a lot of the posts on said forum. Principe and his colleagues such as Trojet have even offered to show me how to read the raw data files and make accurate calls. They work in teams and cross analyze each other’s results to make more accurate conclusions. Although we have more answers, we also have more questions and many more possibilities. No one was really expecting J2a to be a Neolithic farmer lineage, well at first many did then they didn’t, but now it is with subclades J2a-Z6048, J2a-Z6055, J2a2-PreY29673, and J2a-S11842* all making appearances in Neolithic Europe. Just by looking at Yfull, you would think some of these lineages arrived via more recent migrations spanning back to the time of the Roman Empire, but alas here they are in the Neolithic, and in Central Europe no less. I expect more surprises, so this is very interesting. I would love for the raw data on those Js from Sicily EBA to be released, that would be especially interesting. More Bronze and Iron Age samples from Italy would help explain more of the picture too.

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