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Thread: Where do Medieval Italian samples from Antonio et al. 2019 come from?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    If these coordinates of modern Italians included in the updated DODECAD K12b spreadsheet were produced by the “Sizzi” that writes in link below, they must be disregarded.

    https://ilsizzi.wordpress.com/2015/0...omico-europeo/

    The man is a racist. This is his conclusion of the "article" contained in the referred link:

    Le distanze genetiche delimitano popoli, etnie, subrazze e razze, alla faccia di chi continua a ripetere come un disco rotto che le razze non esistono. Pensate anche solo alla biodiversità italiana, dove il gruppo settentrionale è ben distinto sia da quello toscano e centrale che da quello meridionale, soprattutto. Quanto basta per poter parlare di gruppi etnici differenti. Figuratevi se dovessimo parlare di gruppi razziali.”

    Racists are sick people who should not be given credibility or a platform to spread their absurd ideas.

    can you link me to his K12 data .................as far as I can see he only has K13 and K15
    Which means the K12 we have been using has always been dodecad


    Only found this
    https://ilsizzi.wordpress.com/2018/0...nale-italiano/
    which is k13
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

  2. #27
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    Nobody used Dodecad k12b from what I see on the net, most used is europgenes K13

    Athrogenica only use G25 data from what I can see

    So, unless someone shows me something else...then the dodecad data was used in this thread and results stand as is

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Nobody used Dodecad k12b from what I see on the net, most used is europgenes K13

    Athrogenica only use G25 data from what I can see

    So, unless someone shows me something else...then the dodecad data was used in this thread and results stand as is
    https://yourdnaportal.com/yourgeneticancestry

    they do not have K12b ............they do have everything else

  4. #29
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    I went back and ran original Dodecad12 spreadsheet. My top 50 scores. I get similar results to the ones with the Dodecad 12B, except now my South Italian_Siclian distance is 6.18. Thus, I am closer distance wise to 21 Romans starting with R437 (Iron Age) up to Medieval Roman R1290. My closest match is Imperial Roman R131. With the Dodecad 12B Update, My Sicilian score was 4.1 and had 2 other scores of less than that I believe. So as some others have noted, the Dodecad12B update are more accurate. As an FYI, I know nothing about this Sazzi fellow and his blog. Never heard of it till it was mentioned here. But I think if he is the one who did the Dodecad 12B updated spreadsheet, it is more accurate than the original, at least in my particular case.

    Distance to: PalermoTrapani
    2.74320980 R131__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    3.34371051 R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.96989924 R52___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.16199471 R56___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.28897424 R836__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche
    4.28984848 R49___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis
    4.75169443 R969__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    4.89823438 R835__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche
    4.99327548 R54___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.07506650 R65___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.11293458 R437__Iron_Age_____Palestrina_Selicata
    5.11761663 R117__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    5.15501697 R973__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    5.29457269 R122__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    5.50790341 R64___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.57297048 R59___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.59843728 R35___Late_Antiquity_Celio
    5.77488528 R58___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.87176294 R118__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    6.10313034 R121__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    6.12587137 R107__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    6.18146423 S_Italian_Sicilian
    6.46333505 R113__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    6.62921564 R1544_Imperial_Era__Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
    6.70280538 R436__Imperial_Era__Palestrina
    7.18347409 R136__Imperial_Era__Marcellino_&_Pietro
    7.19658252 R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    7.27409788 R53___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    7.30593594 R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    7.53768532 R60___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    7.64537769 C_Italian
    7.73356321 R47___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis
    8.48495728 R50___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis
    8.50541004 R137__Imperial_Era__Marcellino_&_Pietro
    8.60780460 R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    9.21462425 R114__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    9.43943854 R30___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
    9.50429903 R970__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    9.50891687 R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    9.53776703 R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    9.59932289 R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio
    9.80881746 R125__Imperial_Era__Casale_del_Dolce
    9.86738060 R32___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
    9.96273557 R51___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis
    10.73444922 R1549_Imperial_Era__Monterotondo
    10.83915587 Tuscan
    11.27436473 R69___Imperial_Era__ANAS
    11.66221677 R1548_Imperial_Era__Monterotondo
    11.85414274 R133__Imperial_Era__Marcellino_&_Pietro
    12.26351907 R123__Imperial_Era__Casale_del_Dolce

  5. #30
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    Here is my top 50 using K12B updated spreadsheet. I included Roman sources that Jovialis provided and the Italian reference samples and ran top 50. So I still get Sicily at around 6 (surprising) but do get scores for Campania and Abruzzo < 5 (My ancestors are not from there btw, although my family name does seem to populate very heavy in Campania vs Sicilia). So I think the results are reasonably consistent but the K12B updates I think provide better estimates as the variables for the Italian populations are better samples it seems to me. Post 29 above by me is the same run using K12B original data.

    Distance to: PalermoTrapani
    2.74320980 R131__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    3.34371051 R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.96989924 R52___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.16199471 R56___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.28897424 R836__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche
    4.28984848 R49___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis
    4.43471600 Italy_Campania
    4.75169443 R969__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    4.89823438 R835__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche
    4.97427660 Italy_Abruzzo
    4.99327548 R54___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.07506650 R65___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.11293458 R437__Iron_Age_____Palestrina_Selicata
    5.11761663 R117__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    5.15501697 R973__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    5.29457269 R122__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    5.50790341 R64___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.57297048 R59___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.59843728 R35___Late_Antiquity_Celio
    5.77488528 R58___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.87176294 R118__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    6.06587380 Italy_Sicily
    6.10313034 R121__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    6.12587137 R107__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    6.46333505 R113__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    6.62921564 R1544_Imperial_Era__Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
    6.70280538 R436__Imperial_Era__Palestrina
    6.82817311 Italy_Apulia
    7.18347409 R136__Imperial_Era__Marcellino_&_Pietro
    7.18656426 Italy_Calabria
    7.19658252 R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    7.27409788 R53___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    7.29754740 Italy_Marche
    7.30593594 R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    7.53768532 R60___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    7.73356321 R47___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis
    8.03091925 Italy_Lazio
    8.48495728 R50___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis
    8.50541004 R137__Imperial_Era__Marcellino_&_Pietro
    8.60780460 R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    9.21462425 R114__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    9.43943854 R30___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
    9.50429903 R970__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    9.50891687 R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    9.53776703 R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    9.59932289 R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio
    9.80881746 R125__Imperial_Era__Casale_del_Dolce
    9.86738060 R32___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
    9.96273557 R51___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis
    10.44658317 Italy_Romagna
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 25-01-20 at 03:57. Reason: typo

  6. #31
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    This is mine. Not so close to any of them:


    Distance to: JD
    9.96847531 R969__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    9.99933998 R60___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    10.31137721 R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    10.58852209 R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
    10.68546209 R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio
    10.82951984 R121__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    10.87670906 R107__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    11.09423274 R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    11.38183201 R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    11.46652519 R970__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    11.64696956 R59___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    11.65281940 R33___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
    11.94868194 R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    12.21046273 R836__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche
    12.29796731 R835__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche
    12.32352628 R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    12.37065883 R58___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    12.42960981 R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    12.48480276 R1549_Imperial_Era__Monterotondo
    12.59679721 R973__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    12.63704475 R54___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    13.50418824 R49___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis
    13.81486156 R55___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    14.10271960 R57___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    14.14472340 R122__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
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    Neither me, it makes sense since how it looks so far i am the least Italian shifted Albanian.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I deleted my Gedmatch. Should have probably took my coordinates before doing so lol.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I deleted my Gedmatch. Should have probably took my coordinates before doing so lol.
    You did well. Stick with G25, it's more accurate. Gedmatch calculators like Dodecad k12b are outdated, they assign percentages and components without context.

    IMO, whole genome sequencing + combination of IBD sharing will be the future of genealogical genetics.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    You did well. Stick with G25, it's more accurate. Gedmatch calculators like Dodecad k12b are outdated, they assign percentages and components without context.

    IMO, whole genome sequencing + combination of IBD sharing will be the future of genealogical genetics.
    I agree. An example of how autosomal calculators can be flawed is a half Polish and Half Lebanese coming out Romanian in admixture calculators. I think this is exactly what happens in these autosomal calculators. People take the results too literally.

    MyHeritage has a cool clustering feature that creates DNA match clusters, not only on who you match, but your matches also matching you and each other. I am not sure if it is as accurate as IBD but my break down was fairly accurate I thought.

  11. #36
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    Right, there's a good plan: let's blindly trust the program created by another, better known racist. Also, let's pretend that every method doesn't have its flaws.

    For those who are humor challenged, that was sarcasm.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Right, there's a good plan: let's blindly trust the program created by another, better known racist. Also, let's pretend that every method doesn't have its flaws.

    For those who are humor challenged, that was sarcasm.
    I never said these other methods are not without flaws. Nothing is perfect. I am not privy to the personal beliefs of the guy who created the program. Can we try to judge the science and its accuracy whilst not using the creators personal beliefs to judge the efficacy of the G25 coordinates or IBD?

    Is he including something in his program that somehow negates its efficacy as a tool?

    I am not as vested in this as others given my schedule, however, almost everyone agrees G25 and IBD are far more useful for real relatedness.

    If Gedmatch admixture calculators are more accurate can you explain why mixing a Pole with a Lebanese person would produce a "Romanian Shifted" child? Should he believe he is actually Romanian, or acknowledge the flaws in the tool being used and therefore use other tools that may accurately gauge their ancestry? If I were to listen to half of these calculators, I am Greco-Italian. Yet, IBD and autocluster was more accurate in my case.

    Maybe everyone else is different based on the calculator etc.

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    Oh, please.

    I suggest you start looking all these things up in Coop's new book.

    All pop gen tools have their benefits and minuses. To think that IBD is the complete answer shows a complete misunderstanding of the science. All of them are subject to manipulation in numerous ways, one of which is the selective inclusion of certain samples and not others. There are many other ways.

    When you get a witness on the stand, the first thing you do is test their credibility. If you can show the witness is a known liar and has a bias against the defendant, for example, he's an impeached witness whose testimony should be submitted to the strongest possible scrutiny.

    Does that mean it's impossible the person's testimony is true? No, it doesn't, but it means the jury are fools if they don't take that into account.

    Another huge red flag is when information for each and every sample, and the runs for each and every analysis run are not provided. Providing them is called transparency, and is why an academic paper or amateur programs which provide them are more to be trusted than those which don't.

    Anyone who hasn't figured out that his tools are skewed toward East Europeans is probably in the market for the Brooklyn Bridge at a really great price.

    The level of naiete out there about this and thousands of other sources of "information" floating around on the internet is truly unbelievable.

  14. #39
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    Distance to: Carlos
    16.42307736 Italy_Tuscany
    22.35444828 Italy_Marche
    22.46340232 Italy_Lazio
    28.15513327 Italy_Abruzzo
    30.13375297 Italy_Apulia
    30.77117915 Italy_Campania
    30.89016454 Italy_Sicily
    33.77888164 Italy_Calabria

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    Whit MTA




    R105 PCA



    Comparison of my own kit (gray) with the R105 sample (white)
    Green Match



    The result with modern populations that has been published in the sample thread R105

    Perhaps now it is in a hard process and everyone puts their good intentions and after all the only thing we look for specialists and amateurs is that the results will one day have a quality of excellence.
    According to MTA, it has patented its calculation system and says not to use the K calculators


    At the moment between these two results of the R105 sample I am left with the MTA version

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    Until mta releases a white paper completely laying bare their "patented" algorithm, I'll reserve judgment.

    For everyone's information, Dienekes dumped all the data for his calculator ten years ago. That's one of the reasons I trust it; he always practised complete transparency. It's also, of course, why there are so many copies around.

    It's also true that for the years he was active, I never caught him in a lie. You might disagree here and there but the analysis was honest, and I'm the most skeptical person you can imagine.

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