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Thread: Where do Medieval Italian samples from Antonio et al. 2019 come from?

  1. #1
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    3 members found this post helpful.

    Post Where do Medieval Italian samples from Antonio et al. 2019 come from?

    Using the Dodecad K12b data provided by Jovialis's Ancient Rome Test v1.0, I ran each Medieval sample separately against modern populations. As Angela pointed out, many of the skeletons from the Latium region that were tested may have been pilgrims from other parts of Italy or Europe. This should provide better insight for the personal matches of anyone who uses the genetic distance calculator. I have listed the samples by burial location.

    Palazzo della Cancelleria, central Rome (771-1411 calCE)

    Those samples are very heterogeneous in origin and none seem to be local. R1219 looks Austrian, R1220 may come from Southeast France or the Alps, R1221 and R1224 from Aosta Valley, R1283 from the Marche, R1285 and R1287 from Corsica, Tuscany or Romagna, R1285 and R1286 from Germany, R1288 might be from modern Belgium, and R1289 from northern Spain.

    Distance to: R1219_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    8.84970056 German
    10.01800878 Bosnian
    10.13850088 Hungarians
    11.50648513 Mixed_Germanic

    Distance to: R1220_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    8.04748586 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    9.75453536 Italy_Trentino
    10.13612352 French
    10.41686613 French
    10.79907015 Italy_FriuliVG

    Distance to: R1221_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    4.64912579 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    6.95658106 Italy_Trentino
    7.90496758 Swiss_Italian
    8.53031893 Italy_Piedmont
    8.58839543 Italy_FriuliVG

    Distance to: R1224_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    4.24054059 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    7.26176700 Italy_Trentino
    8.26022472 Swiss_Italian
    9.49466166 French
    9.70334478 French

    Distance to: R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    2.87198851 Italy_Marche
    4.18285716 Italy_Lazio
    4.48059148 Italy_Romagna
    6.91392002 Italy_Tuscany

    Distance to: R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    4.95855987 France_Corsica
    5.72900515 Italy_Romagna
    5.73295543 Italy_Marche
    6.52601027 Italy_Tuscany

    Distance to: R1286_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    3.95170849 German
    5.49035518 Mixed_Germanic
    6.10737259 Dutch

    Distance to: R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    4.49812139 France_Corsica
    4.96607873 Italy_Marche
    5.31727374 Italy_Romagna
    6.44594865 Italy_Lazio
    6.54767058 Italy_Tuscany

    Distance to: R1288_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    8.79032991 Mixed_Germanic
    9.14831132 French
    9.25266988 German
    9.48304276 French
    9.75376338 Dutch

    Distance to: R1289_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    5.07975393 Galicia
    5.33575674 Baleares
    6.34399716 Cataluna
    6.67958831 Extremadura
    7.09184743 Spaniards

    Villa Magna (820-1430 CE) in Anagni (Frosinone)

    In contrast to the Cancelleria, most samples here appear to be local or South Italian. The exceptions are R55 and R61 (both North Italian), R62 (French/Belgian), and R63 (Spanish).

    Distance to: R52___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.92471681 Italy_Abruzzo
    4.93031297 Italy_Campania
    6.18603791 Italy_Sicily
    6.22434237 Italy_Marche

    Distance to: R53___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.15041274 Italy_Calabria
    3.51527325 Italy_Campania
    4.07746796 Italy_Sicily
    4.36937066 Greek_Crete

    Distance to: R54___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    2.52721698 Italy_Abruzzo
    2.61053788 Italy_Apulia
    3.75606789 Italy_Campania
    3.91256502 Italy_Sicily

    Distance to: R55___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    2.29520807 Italy_Piedmont
    2.87308736 Italy_Veneto
    2.87533233 Italy_FriuliVG
    4.77416171 Italy_Trentino

    Distance to: R56___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    2.25696832 Italy_Campania
    3.44506251 Italy_Abruzzo
    3.51524181 Italy_Sicily
    4.83193995 Italy_Calabria

    Distance to: R57___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    10.70661252 Italy_Abruzzo
    11.03871677 Italy_Apulia
    11.78143879 Greek
    11.98106694 Italy_Sicily
    11.99134796 Italy_Campania

    Distance to: R58___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.41588144 Italy_Campania
    4.75263800 Italy_Apulia
    4.96906024 Italy_Abruzzo
    5.34821138 Italy_Sicily
    5.46218015 Italy_Calabria

    Distance to: R59___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.72085286 Italy_Campania
    4.38579362 Italy_Abruzzo
    4.68549549 Italy_Apulia
    5.05756513 Italy_Sicily

    Distance to: R60___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.05517053 Italy_Apulia
    4.43348482 Italy_Abruzzo
    5.18685107 Italy_Lazio
    6.09799295 Italy_Marche

    Distance to: R61___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    6.24222877 Italy_Trentino
    6.74439441 Italy_FriuliVG
    6.96378579 Swiss_Italian
    7.79813033 Italy_Aosta_Valley

    Distance to: R62___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    8.76040524 French
    8.84359655 Mixed_Germanic
    9.22279784 French
    10.40246125 German
    10.65894929 Dutch

    Distance to: R63___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.79568805 Galicia
    6.83400322 Baleares
    7.74857406 Extremadura
    7.75888523 Portuguese

    Distance to: R64___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.94673853 Italy_Sicily
    4.12297053 Italy_Campania
    4.22461876 Italy_Abruzzo
    4.40196184 Italy_Apulia

    Distance to: R65___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    1.57936886 Italy_Campania
    3.26591345 Italy_Calabria
    3.46294744 Italy_Sicily
    4.43626867 Italy_Abruzzo
    4.94872186 Italy_Apulia

    Distance to: R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.11799546 Italy_Abruzzo
    3.66645142 Italy_Campania
    4.80833734 Italy_Apulia
    5.40362887 Italy_Sicily


    Tivoli Palazzo Cianti(1600-1700 CE)

    All samples appear to be relatively local.

    Distance to: R969__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    4.00665172 Italy_Marche
    4.09387954 Italy_Abruzzo
    4.14478033 Italy_Lazio
    5.55050881 Italy_Apulia

    Distance to: R970__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    5.45594025 Italy_Lazio
    5.66019272 Italy_Abruzzo
    6.13176304 Italy_Marche
    6.92250590 Italy_Apulia

    Distance to: R973__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    1.58242335 Italy_Abruzzo
    2.75668750 Italy_Campania
    3.45154284 Italy_Apulia
    3.51985014 Italy_Sicily
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Here are now the samples for the Late Antiquity.


    Mausoleum of Augustus, Rome (300-700 CE)

    Very mixed. One German, one North Italian, one Calabrian, one Sicilian and one Jew.

    Distance to: R30___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
    3.97577175 Italy_Calabria
    6.01773213 Sephardic_Jews
    6.37718943 Italy_Sicily
    6.43644203 Italy_Campania
    6.67999251 Greek_Crete

    Distance to: R31___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
    5.19241755 German
    5.93676680 Mixed_Germanic
    6.03682036 Dutch

    Distance to: R32___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
    6.19178205 Italy_Sicily
    6.71056525 Italy_Campania
    6.96393062 Italy_Abruzzo
    7.22982165 Italy_Calabria

    Distance to: R33___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
    2.98170029 Italy_Veneto
    4.01654299 Italy_Lombardy
    4.11704240 Italy_Piedmont
    4.61137897 Italy_FriuliVG
    4.63166321 Italy_Liguria
    5.08936268 Swiss_Italian

    Distance to: R34___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
    4.68439964 Sephardic_Jews
    5.40817899 Greek_Crete
    7.04337791 Italy_Calabria
    7.63757160 Ashkenazy_Jews


    Crypta Balbi, Rome (400-600 CE)

    Four out of seven samples are North Italians. One appears West German or Belgian. One from Abruzzo/Campania. R104 doesn't match any modern population but is closest to population with high European Neolithic Farmer ancestry.

    Distance to: R104__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    13.32309273 Sardinian
    17.44959025 Andalucia
    18.88248924 Murcia

    Distance to: R105__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    5.18126337 Italy_Piedmont
    5.85537531 Italy_Trentino
    6.00541827 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    6.03021194 Italy_FriuliVG
    6.03941873 Italy_Veneto

    Distance to: R106__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    9.86028397 Mixed_Germanic
    10.24173813 German
    11.79750821 Dutch
    11.91622004 French

    Distance to: R107__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    5.46984823 Italy_Abruzzo
    5.80777978 Italy_Campania
    6.29398824 Italy_Apulia
    6.79053054 Italy_Sicily

    Distance to: R108__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    7.17376279 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    7.44007124 Italy_Trentino
    8.15129536 Italy_FriuliVG
    9.07077794 Swiss_Italian

    Distance to: R109__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    4.83398785 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    6.22388243 Swiss_Italian
    6.50759556 Italy_Trentino
    8.28935716 Italy_Piedmont

    Distance to: R110__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    5.16933976 Italy_Lombardy
    5.22525239 Swiss_Italian
    5.84723782 Italy_Piedmont
    6.07875337 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    6.56645110 Italy_Trentino


    Celio, Rome (400-600 CE)

    One local from Lazio and one South Italian.

    Distance to: R35___Late_Antiquity_Celio
    2.78705669 Italy_Sicily
    3.25545174 Italy_Campania
    4.33982864 Italy_Calabria
    4.38907504 Italy_Abruzzo

    Distance to: R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio
    2.67098933 Italy_Lazio
    2.88050343 Italy_Romagna
    3.12280611 Italy_Marche

    S. Ercolano Necropolis, Ostia (400-600 CE)

    All from Lazio, Marche, Abruzzo or Campania.

    Distance to: R117__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    4.56126364 Italy_Campania
    5.08336945 Italy_Sicily
    5.09341415 Italy_Abruzzo
    6.27776433 Italy_Calabria

    Distance to: R118__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    5.05516350 Italy_Marche
    6.39966984 Italy_Lazio
    7.09165002 Italy_Romagna

    Distance to: R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    2.72502807 Italy_Marche
    3.86621831 Italy_Lazio
    4.25041174 Italy_Romagna

    Distance to: R121__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    3.87610681 Italy_Lazio
    3.97489115 Italy_Abruzzo
    4.50175943 Italy_Marche
    5.13760917 Italy_Apulia

    Distance to: R122__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    2.95552127 Italy_Campania
    3.40354781 Italy_Abruzzo
    3.44436133 Italy_Sicily
    5.26539754 Italy_Calabria

  3. #3
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    All of the samples to which I get reasonable hits are the ones which could be labeled Central Italian(possibly mostly "local") or Northern Italian, so it all makes sense.

    Distance to: Angela
    6.16793320 R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    6.20598904 R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    6.88215809 R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    9.01179227 R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    9.10498215 R1016_Iron_Age_____Castel_di_Decima
    9.25520934 R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    9.40529638 R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio
    9.46954592 R33___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
    9.61917356 R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    9.80181106 R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
    9.85873217 R110__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    10.29759195 R118__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    10.76144972 R474__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia
    10.89582948 R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
    10.91793937 R473__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia
    11.16737659 R55___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    11.21531542 R113__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    12.66933700 R52___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    12.94033230 R969__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    13.02701424 R835__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche
    13.18377791 R851__Iron_Age_____Ardea
    13.22393663 R105__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    13.23101281 R970__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    13.78290245 R121__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    13.98591792 R836__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche

    The rest are probably merchants, pilgrims or other travelers.


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I’m more Medieval than Modern:

    Distance to: LUPIAE
    2.49000000 R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    2.78107893 R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.39329162 Italy_Apulia


    Rs Top 10
    Distance to: LUPIAE
    2.49000000 R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    2.78107893 R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.62665106 R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.66386106 R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.74364838 R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    4.88130106 R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    4.90240757 R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.04985148 R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis
    5.10057840 R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.45748110 R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    @Maciano

    For your records, if you want

    below is the R1 sample protoVillovan ..................female
    born Nis Liburnia and died in Picene lands ( Marche )

    using your method


    Distance to: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
    3.19263925 Italy_Veneto
    4.59394558 Italy_FriuliVG
    4.79243154 Italy_Piedmont
    5.36235312 Italy_Emilia
    5.41730100 Italy_Liguria
    5.48928753 Italy_Lombardy
    6.14541374 Italy_Tuscany
    6.75545261 Italy_Trentino
    6.93031835 Swiss_Italian
    7.40857611 Italy_Romagna
    10.03419075 Italy_Lazio
    10.25871769 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    10.51680265 Italy_Marche
    10.77139620 France_Corsica
    15.87357841 Italy_Abruzzo
    16.98590263 Italy_Apulia
    18.81695528 Italy_Campania
    19.20153028 Italy_Sicily
    22.17265551 Italy_Calabria


    interesting is

    Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
    Distance: 2.4220% / 2.42202404 | ADC: 0.5x
    92.4 Italy_Veneto
    7.6 Italy_Apulia
    Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
    Distance: 2.2913% / 2.29129837 | ADC: 0.25x
    84.8 Italy_Veneto
    10.6 Italy_Apulia
    4.6 Italy_FriuliVG
    Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
    Distance: 2.2777% / 2.27773577
    79.6 Italy_Veneto
    11.8 Italy_Apulia
    8.6 Italy_FriuliVG


    It would mean that the Apulian "illyrians" came to Apulia ( landing firstly in Foggia lands ) via what Italian scholars state, from the Iapodes Illyrians that lived next to Liburnians ( most likely shipped by Liburnian navy which was the only fleet from modern Corfu to Trieste in the early iron age )

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    @Maciano

    For your records, if you want

    below is the R1 sample protoVillovan ..................female
    born Nis Liburnia and died in Picene lands ( Marche )

    Where is the evidence that Proto-Villanovan R1 sample was born in "Liburnia"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Using the Dodecad K12b data provided by Jovialis's Ancient Rome Test v1.0, I ran each Medieval sample separately against modern populations. As Angela pointed out, many of the skeletons from the Latium region that were tested may have been pilgrims from other parts of Italy or Europe. This should provide better insight for the personal matches of anyone who uses the genetic distance calculator. I have listed the samples by burial location.

    Palazzo della Cancelleria, central Rome (771-1411 calCE)

    Rome was the center of Christianity, it is not so strange that there were many foreigners. Not only pilgrims, but also friars, priests, bishops etc. from all over Europe and Italy.

    For example, the Palazzo della Cancelleria was part of the Vatican institutions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Where is the evidence that Proto-Villanovan R1 sample was born in "Liburnia"?
    my error, not Nis , but Nin

    A Proto-Villanovan female from Martinsicuro in the Adriatic coast (ca. 890 BC), of mtDNA hg. U5a2b, is the earliest mainland sample available showing foreign ancestry:

    Martinsicuro is a coastal site located on the border of Le Marche and Abruzzo on central Italy’s Adriatic coast. It is a proto-Villanovan village, situated on a hill above the Tronto river, dating to the late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age (…) finds from the site indicate an affinity with contemporaries in the Balkans, suggesting direct trade contacts and interaction across the Adriatic. In particular, the practice of decorating ceramics with bronze elements was shared between the Nin region in Croatia and Picene region of Italy, including Martinsicuro.
    The sample clusters very close to the Early Iron Age sample from Jazinka (ca. 780 BC), from the central Dalmatian onomastic region, on the east Adriatic coast opposite to Marche lands, possibly related to the south-east Dalmatian onomastic region to the south. However, there is no clear boundary between hydrotoponymic regions for the Bronze Age, and it is quite close to the (possibly Venetic-related) Liburnian onomastic region to the north, so the accounts of Martinsicuro belonging to the Liburni in proto-historical times can probably be extrapolated to the Final Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    my error, not Nis , but Nin

    A Proto-Villanovan female from Martinsicuro in the Adriatic coast (ca. 890 BC), of mtDNA hg. U5a2b, is the earliest mainland sample available showing foreign ancestry:
    Martinsicuro is a coastal site located on the border of Le Marche and Abruzzo on central Italy’s Adriatic coast. It is a proto-Villanovan village, situated on a hill above the Tronto river, dating to the late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age (…) finds from the site indicate an affinity with contemporaries in the Balkans, suggesting direct trade contacts and interaction across the Adriatic. In particular, the practice of decorating ceramics with bronze elements was shared between the Nin region in Croatia and Picene region of Italy, including Martinsicuro.
    The sample clusters very close to the Early Iron Age sample from Jazinka (ca. 780 BC), from the central Dalmatian onomastic region, on the east Adriatic coast opposite to Marche lands, possibly related to the south-east Dalmatian onomastic region to the south. However, there is no clear boundary between hydrotoponymic regions for the Bronze Age, and it is quite close to the (possibly Venetic-related) Liburnian onomastic region to the north, so the accounts of Martinsicuro belonging to the Liburni in proto-historical times can probably be extrapolated to the Final Bronze Age.

    Where did the text you posted come from? The text comes from blogger Carl Quilles, who is not an academic scholar but at most he can be considered a hobbyist. According to his own biography, he has no university background in this subject. So, no evidence.


    This is the original text and it doesn't mention any birth of R1 in the Balkans. The text speaks of an affinity in material culture suggesting trade, interaction and contacts, which is a well-known fact.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Where did the text you posted come from? The text comes from blogger Carl Quilles, who is not an academic scholar but at most he can be considered a hobbyist. According to his own biography, he has no university background in this subject. So, no evidence.


    This is the original text and it doesn't mention any birth of R1 in the Balkans. The text speaks of an affinity in material culture suggesting trade, interaction and contacts, which is a well-known fact.

    I think it was via sizzi attachment

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I think it was via sizzi attachment
    on a lap top now
    a sizzi thread attachment in italian ..............I got a english version

    Do you think all Villanovan sample are only etruscans ?
    even when they held Rome for over 200 years and claimed naples from the greeks ..............or even arriving in Adria on the adriatic coast

    hope you do not think that only etruscans can have Villanovan or proto-villanovan

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    on a lap top now
    a sizzi thread attachment in italian ..............I got a english version

    Do you think all Villanovan sample are only etruscans ?
    even when they held Rome for over 200 years and claimed naples from the greeks ..............or even arriving in Adria on the adriatic coast
    Proto-Villanovan R1 is Proto-Picene/Proto-Italic.

    Villanovan R1015 is Etruscan.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Proto-Villanovan R1 is Proto-Picene/Proto-Italic.

    Villanovan R1015 is Etruscan.




    As long as you do not think every Villanovan is not etruscan .................I will check on R1015



    Distance to: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    9.24585840 Italy_Lombardy
    10.47190348 Swiss_Italian
    10.59439172 France_Corsica
    10.67138183 Italy_Liguria
    11.32346900 Italy_Piedmont
    11.45354578 Italy_Emilia
    12.15522425 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    12.35516815 Italy_Trentino
    12.48426575 Italy_Veneto
    12.52109061 Italy_Tuscany
    15.14121316 Italy_FriuliVG
    15.18462380 Italy_Romagna
    17.92780238 Italy_Marche
    18.70868739 Italy_Lazio
    23.67064439 Italy_Abruzzo
    25.60013410 Italy_Campania
    26.16214227 Italy_Apulia
    26.41047302 Italy_Sicily
    28.64339688 Italy_Calabria




    Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    Distance: 8.1764% / 8.17643111 | ADC: 0.5x
    56.6 France_Corsica
    33.6 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    9.8 Swiss_Italian
    Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    Distance: 8.1328% / 8.13276039 | ADC: 0.25x
    57.6 France_Corsica
    42.4 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    Distance: 8.1324% / 8.13237277
    57.0 France_Corsica
    43.0 Italy_Aosta_Valley


    At best this person is mostly likely a Gallic-Ligurian mix

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    My closest match is R110

    3.20856666 R110__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    3.99085204 R474__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia
    6.33544000 R105__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    7.06787097 R55___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    7.72353546 R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    7.81421781 R33___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
    8.08064973 R109__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    8.43316074 R1016_Iron_Age_____Castel_di_Decima
    8.48432083 R473__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia
    8.72169708 R63___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    8.97703737 R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
    9.39635036 R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica
    9.42583683 R1221_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    10.31083411 R851__Iron_Age_____Ardea
    10.42913707 R1289_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    10.55089570 R435__Iron_Age_____Palestrina_Colombella
    10.67592619 R1224_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    11.06633634 R61___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    12.32318546 R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio
    12.76021160 R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    12.80834103 R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    13.01039584 R108__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    13.18746754 R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    13.89386195 R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    14.11668871 R1220_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    As long as you do not think every Villanovan is not etruscan .................I will check on R1015At best this person is mostly likely a Gallic-Ligurian mix
    It's not so difficult to understand, Torzio. Trust me. Is Villanovan R1015 at best a Gallic-Ligurian mix? You're so funny. So are you suggesting that in 900 B.C. in Veio, a well-known Etruscan city in southern Etruria, lived both Gauls and Ligurians? There is always something new to learn.


    Proto-Villanovan culture is a Bronze Age culture, Villanovan is an Iron Age culture. They are called similarly because the Villanovan culture was discovered earlier than the Proto-Villanovan culture by two different archeologists. Although they have kept these names, further distinctions have been made in recent years by archaeologists, because there's a huge difference between the two. The Villanovan culture is the most ancient phase of the Etruscan civilization, while the proto-Villanovan culture is a supranational bronze culture not only ancestral to the Etruscans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    As long as you do not think every Villanovan is not etruscan .................I will check on R1015



    Distance to: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    9.24585840 Italy_Lombardy
    10.47190348 Swiss_Italian
    10.59439172 France_Corsica
    10.67138183 Italy_Liguria
    11.32346900 Italy_Piedmont
    11.45354578 Italy_Emilia
    12.15522425 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    12.35516815 Italy_Trentino
    12.48426575 Italy_Veneto
    12.52109061 Italy_Tuscany
    15.14121316 Italy_FriuliVG
    15.18462380 Italy_Romagna
    17.92780238 Italy_Marche
    18.70868739 Italy_Lazio
    23.67064439 Italy_Abruzzo
    25.60013410 Italy_Campania
    26.16214227 Italy_Apulia
    26.41047302 Italy_Sicily
    28.64339688 Italy_Calabria




    Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    Distance: 8.1764% / 8.17643111 | ADC: 0.5x
    56.6 France_Corsica
    33.6 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    9.8 Swiss_Italian
    Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    Distance: 8.1328% / 8.13276039 | ADC: 0.25x
    57.6 France_Corsica
    42.4 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    Distance: 8.1324% / 8.13237277
    57.0 France_Corsica
    43.0 Italy_Aosta_Valley


    At best this person is mostly likely a Gallic-Ligurian mix
    Stop making up your own idiosyncratic definitions for these samples. Neither is "Sizzi" an unimpeachable source. From what I've read at his site he doesn't even know that the people with one of the largest proportions of Anatolia Neolithic are Northern Italians.

    This sample is an Etruscan, buried in an Etruscan context. What is the difficulty here???

    The closest MODERN population is Lombards according to K12b, but the area generally might be described as northwestern Italy as should be clear to anyone who looked at the Antonio et al PCA.

    My match with it:

    9.61917356 R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia

    To reiterate for those who have forgotten, these "modern" results are from a list mistakenly claimed to be from an academic paper but actually the product of samples compiled by this "Sizzi".

    Results should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

    Using the original Dodecad:
    Distance to: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    5.24512154 North_Italian
    8.03976368 N_Italian
    8.21257572 Baleares
    10.85773457 Galicia
    11.64063572 Murcia
    12.06155048 Extremadura
    12.15138675 Andalucia
    12.49035628 TSI30
    12.74874111 Castilla_Y_Leon
    12.84337962 Spaniards
    13.02558636 Portuguese
    14.29485922 Spanish
    14.48704249 Cataluna
    14.48716673 Tuscan
    14.59809577 Canarias
    15.02812031 Castilla_La_Mancha
    15.03589040 Valencia
    15.10769340 Cantabria
    15.97660790 Aragon
    16.59626464 O_Italian
    17.91761982 C_Italian
    20.96794697 French
    21.55915815 French
    25.93064596 Greek
    26.20529908 Sicilian
    9.61917356 R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia

    As usual, the original dodecad result is congruent with the findings of the academic paper, i.e. Etruscans are between Northern Italians and Iberians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Stop making up your own idiosyncratic definitions for these samples. Neither is "Sizzi" an unimpeachable source. From what I've read at his site he doesn't even know that the people with one of the largest proportions of Anatolia Neolithic are Northern Italians.

    This sample is an Etruscan, buried in an Etruscan context. What is the difficulty here???

    The closest MODERN population is Lombards according to K12b, but the area generally might be described as northwestern Italy as should be clear to anyone who looked at the Antonio et al PCA.

    My match with it:

    9.61917356 R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia

    To reiterate for those who have forgotten, these "modern" results are from a list mistakenly claimed to be from an academic paper but actually the product of samples compiled by this "Sizzi".

    Results should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

    Using the original Dodecad:
    Distance to: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    5.24512154 North_Italian
    8.03976368 N_Italian
    8.21257572 Baleares
    10.85773457 Galicia
    11.64063572 Murcia
    12.06155048 Extremadura
    12.15138675 Andalucia
    12.49035628 TSI30
    12.74874111 Castilla_Y_Leon
    12.84337962 Spaniards
    13.02558636 Portuguese
    14.29485922 Spanish
    14.48704249 Cataluna
    14.48716673 Tuscan
    14.59809577 Canarias
    15.02812031 Castilla_La_Mancha
    15.03589040 Valencia
    15.10769340 Cantabria
    15.97660790 Aragon
    16.59626464 O_Italian
    17.91761982 C_Italian
    20.96794697 French
    21.55915815 French
    25.93064596 Greek
    26.20529908 Sicilian
    9.61917356 R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia

    As usual, the original dodecad result is congruent with the findings of the academic paper, i.e. Etruscans are between Northern Italians and Iberians.
    to test yout theory

    here is R1 with original dodecad

    Distance to: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
    3.19263925 Italy_Veneto
    4.59394558 Italy_FriuliVG
    4.79243154 Italy_Piedmont
    5.36235312 Italy_Emilia
    5.41730100 Italy_Liguria
    5.48928753 Italy_Lombardy
    6.14541374 Italy_Tuscany
    6.75545261 Italy_Trentino
    6.93031835 Swiss_Italian
    7.40857611 Italy_Romagna
    7.51609606 Albanian_North
    7.76251248 Albanian_Kosovo
    10.03419075 Italy_Lazio
    10.25871769 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    10.51680265 Italy_Marche
    10.77139620 France_Corsica
    15.04893352 Bulgarians
    15.06029880 Romanians
    15.41974708 Bulgarian
    15.87357841 Italy_Abruzzo
    16.83403101 Greek
    16.98590263 Italy_Apulia
    18.35866553 Baleares
    18.81695528 Italy_Campania
    19.20153028 Italy_Sicily


    similar to the above


    92.6 Italy_Veneto 5.2 Albanian_Kosovo 2.2 Albanian_North Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
    Distance: 1.7286% / 1.72862196 | ADC: 0.5x
    80.8 Italy_Veneto 9.6 Albanian_North 8.4 Albanian_Kosovo 0.6 Italy_Tuscany 0.6 Nganassan Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
    Distance: 0.9911% / 0.99106208 | ADC: 0.25x
    83.6 Italy_Veneto 10.6 Albanian_North 3.8 Greek

    Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
    Distance: 3.1926% / 3.19263925 | ADC: 2x
    100.0 Italy_Veneto



    which is better post #5 or this for sample R1 ?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I’m more Medieval than Modern:

    Distance to: LUPIAE
    2.49000000 R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    2.78107893 R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.39329162 Italy_Apulia


    Rs Top 10
    Distance to: LUPIAE
    2.49000000 R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    2.78107893 R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.62665106 R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.66386106 R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.74364838 R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    4.88130106 R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    4.90240757 R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.04985148 R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis
    5.10057840 R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.45748110 R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
    Damn Salento go back to your own time and quit messing around with time travel!

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    if I leave in the Sardinians, Spanish, french and Albanians ....the results for R1015 are

    Distance to: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    9.24585840 Italy_Lombardy
    10.47190348 Swiss_Italian
    10.59439172 France_Corsica
    10.67138183 Italy_Liguria
    11.32346900 Italy_Piedmont
    11.45354578 Italy_Emilia
    12.15522425 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    12.35516815 Italy_Trentino
    12.48426575 Italy_Veneto
    12.52109061 Italy_Tuscany
    12.84337962 Spaniards
    14.29485922 Spanish
    15.14121316 Italy_FriuliVG
    15.18462380 Italy_Romagna
    17.92780238 Italy_Marche
    18.70868739 Italy_Lazio
    20.58547789 Albanian_North
    20.71231035 Albanian_Kosovo
    20.96794697 French
    21.55915815 French
    23.67064439 Italy_Abruzzo
    25.60013410 Italy_Campania
    25.93064596 Greek
    26.16214227 Italy_Apulia
    26.41047302 Italy_Sicily


    51.2 Italy_Lombardy 28.4 Spaniards 20.4 France_Corsica Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    Distance: 3.8825% / 3.88254771 | ADC: 0.5x
    57.0 Italy_Lombardy 23.6 Spaniards 11.0 France_Corsica 8.4 Sardinian Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    Distance: 2.1920% / 2.19198126 | ADC: 0.25x
    67.4 Swiss_Italian 20.6 Sardinian 8.2 France_Corsica 3.8 Spanish

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    If these coordinates of modern Italians included in the updated DODECAD K12b spreadsheet were produced by the “Sizzi” that writes in link below, they must be disregarded.

    https://ilsizzi.wordpress.com/2015/0...omico-europeo/

    The man is a racist. This is his conclusion of the "article" contained in the referred link:

    Le distanze genetiche delimitano popoli, etnie, subrazze e razze, alla faccia di chi continua a ripetere come un disco rotto che le razze non esistono. Pensate anche solo alla biodiversità italiana, dove il gruppo settentrionale è ben distinto sia da quello toscano e centrale che da quello meridionale, soprattutto. Quanto basta per poter parlare di gruppi etnici differenti. Figuratevi se dovessimo parlare di gruppi razziali.”

    Racists are sick people who should not be given credibility or a platform to spread their absurd ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    It's not so difficult to understand, Torzio. Trust me. Is Villanovan R1015 at best a Gallic-Ligurian mix? You're so funny. So are you suggesting that in 900 B.C. in Veio, a well-known Etruscan city in southern Etruria, lived both Gauls and Ligurians? There is always something new to learn.


    Proto-Villanovan culture is a Bronze Age culture, Villanovan is an Iron Age culture. They are called similarly because the Villanovan culture was discovered earlier than the Proto-Villanovan culture by two different archeologists. Although they have kept these names, further distinctions have been made in recent years by archaeologists, because there's a huge difference between the two. The Villanovan culture is the most ancient phase of the Etruscan civilization, while the proto-Villanovan culture is a supranational bronze culture not only ancestral to the Etruscans.
    I agree the term gallic-ligurian is a bit young

    it should be etruscan and or greek for Corsica at that time ..............unsure when the etruscans kicked the greeks out of corsica and took over their olive groves

    using dodecad 12 only markers

    and these as the source

    Italy_Liguria,5.1,0.05,2.014,0.0922,37.89,23.225,0 .2477,0.053,7.89,0.048,23.39,0
    Italy_Emilia,6.13,0,1.15,0.1801,37.614,22.757,0.14 ,0.107,7.396,0.25,24.22,0.055
    Italy_Romagna,6.08,0,1.87,0.13,34.66,20.98,0.1,0,8 .99,0,27.19,0
    Italy_Tuscany,6.12,0.049,1.21,0.139,36.889,21.811, 0.157,0.055,8.206,0,25.364,0
    Italy_Lazio,6.725,0,2.67,0.0525,31.7,19.8175,0.257 5,0.07,9.785,0.1725,28.747,0
    Italy_Marche,6.421,0.082,2.38,0.048,32.91,18.72,0. 294,0.267,9.802,0,29.042,0.034
    Italy_Abruzzo,7.586,0.0283,3.225,0.0383,29.12,16.1 ,0,0.0783,10.91,0.316,32.598,0
    Italy_Campania,7.065,0.086,2.818,0.085,28.905,13.7 27,0.111,0.334,12.32,0.02,34.342,0.111

    we find that if that sample was truly central italian and heading into southern italian .............then its a migrant , because the result is beyond 5.000

    If you disagree , then dodecad numbers are also in error


    Distance to: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    10.67138183 Italy_Liguria
    11.45354578 Italy_Emilia
    12.52109061 Italy_Tuscany
    15.18462380 Italy_Romagna
    17.92780238 Italy_Marche
    18.70868739 Italy_Lazio
    23.67064439 Italy_Abruzzo
    25.60013410 Italy_Campania



    100.0 Italy_Liguria

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    using only these

    Italy_Tuscany,6.12,0.049,1.21,0.139,36.889,21.811, 0.157,0.055,8.206,0,25.364,0
    Italy_Lazio,6.725,0,2.67,0.0525,31.7,19.8175,0.257 5,0.07,9.785,0.1725,28.747,0
    Italy_Marche,6.421,0.082,2.38,0.048,32.91,18.72,0. 294,0.267,9.802,0,29.042,0.034
    Italy_Abruzzo,7.586,0.0283,3.225,0.0383,29.12,16.1 ,0,0.0783,10.91,0.316,32.598,0
    Italy_Campania,7.065,0.086,2.818,0.085,28.905,13.7 27,0.111,0.334,12.32,0.02,34.342,0.111
    Italy_Apulia,7.382,0.32,2.812,0.336,26.188,17.186, 0.274,0.266,11.314,0.412,33.356,0.154
    Italy_Sicily,7.313,0.482,4.594,0.101,27.216,13.451 ,0.249,0.653,12.095,0.047,33.163,0.635
    Italy_Calabria,7.006,0.1308,4.1825,0.0759,27.005,1 1.44083,0.2616,0.5983,13.52416,0.22,35.4525,0.0975


    Again ....although Tuscany .......a number of 12.5 is too far


    Distance to: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    12.52109061 Italy_Tuscany
    17.92780238 Italy_Marche
    18.70868739 Italy_Lazio
    23.67064439 Italy_Abruzzo
    25.60013410 Italy_Campania
    26.16214227 Italy_Apulia
    26.41047302 Italy_Sicily
    28.64339688 Italy_Calabria

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    and for north italy

    Distance to: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    9.24585840 Italy_Lombardy
    10.47190348 Swiss_Italian
    10.67138183 Italy_Liguria
    11.32346900 Italy_Piedmont
    11.45354578 Italy_Emilia
    12.15522425 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    12.35516815 Italy_Trentino
    12.48426575 Italy_Veneto
    15.14121316 Italy_FriuliVG

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @Duarte

    I just stopped using it,
    and everyone should do the same !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    If these coordinates of modern Italians included in the updated DODECAD K12b spreadsheet were produced by the “Sizzi” that writes in link below, they must be disregarded.

    https://ilsizzi.wordpress.com/2015/0...omico-europeo/

    The man is a racist. This is his conclusion of the "article" contained in the referred link:

    Le distanze genetiche delimitano popoli, etnie, subrazze e razze, alla faccia di chi continua a ripetere come un disco rotto che le razze non esistono. Pensate anche solo alla biodiversità italiana, dove il gruppo settentrionale è ben distinto sia da quello toscano e centrale che da quello meridionale, soprattutto. Quanto basta per poter parlare di gruppi etnici differenti. Figuratevi se dovessimo parlare di gruppi razziali.”

    Racists are sick people who should not be given credibility or a platform to spread their absurd ideas.
    Believing that dna gives us the ability to distinguish people of different "races" or what are now called breeding populations doesn't make you a racist, imo. That's what we're doing every day. Are we all racists then? From the little I know of him I think the term might fit, but not for that reason.

    In terms of the samples, when dealing with the work product of anyone with an obvious agenda, it behooves one to be cautious because of the possibility that this bias would lead to distortion of the data. That has been the cause of my hesitancy about some of Eurogenes' results. When it's academic samples and there's some degree of transparency there's less concern.

    I don't know the source of those samples, so that's one area of concern; the other concern is whether someone like this is to be trusted choosing samples, if it is indeed his work.

    I'm going to go back to using the original Dodecad.

    For example, these are my closest Medieval matches:
    6.16793320 R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    6.20598904 R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    These are the closest modern populations according to the original dodecad:
    Distance to: R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    3.57624104 Tuscan
    3.81152201 TSI30
    4.75531282 C_Italian
    6.83702421 O_Italian
    10.65236593 N_Italian
    10.91843395 North_Italian
    12.61605723 S_Italian_Sicilian
    12.63765010 Sicilian
    13.09491886 Greek
    16.62573006 Ashkenazi
    17.11678124 Ashkenazy_Jews
    20.15269461 Sephardic_Jews
    20.66370973 Baleares
    20.77912173 Morocco_Jews
    22.13513723 Bulgarians
    22.51428213 Bulgarian
    22.57344679 Galicia
    22.99541041 Romanians
    23.18739097 Extremadura
    23.21290374 Murcia
    23.62890391 Andalucia
    23.71828198 Canarias
    23.88277203 Portuguese
    25.20537443 Castilla_Y_Leon
    25.56972624 Spaniards

    Distance to: R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    4.18359893 C_Italian
    4.39795407 TSI30
    4.67375652 Tuscan
    6.63923188 O_Italian
    10.89065655 N_Italian
    11.33756147 North_Italian
    11.94195545 Sicilian
    12.25031428 S_Italian_Sicilian
    13.05106126 Greek
    16.05808830 Ashkenazi
    16.61078866 Ashkenazy_Jews
    19.42127699 Sephardic_Jews
    19.69553757 Morocco_Jews
    20.62295323 Baleares
    22.06728801 Bulgarians
    22.38915362 Bulgarian
    22.39324452 Galicia
    22.69921144 Canarias
    22.83699192 Extremadura
    22.95221558 Murcia
    22.99935216 Romanians
    23.42924455 Portuguese
    23.44488430 Andalucia
    24.96409822 Castilla_Y_Leon
    25.63061061 Spaniards

    These are the results using the "updated" list of K12b samples:
    Distance to: R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    4.95855987 France_Corsica
    5.72900515 Italy_Romagna
    5.73295543 Italy_Marche
    6.52601027 Italy_Tuscany
    7.24070466 Italy_Lazio
    7.99930566 Italy_Emilia
    8.57943659 Italy_Liguria
    10.37018436 Italy_Abruzzo
    10.86251230 Italy_Lombardy
    11.76210041 Italy_Campania
    12.19792774 Italy_Piedmont
    12.42161332 Italy_Veneto
    12.83907707 Albanian_Kosovo
    12.91294962 Italy_Apulia
    13.07584127 Italy_Sicily
    13.09491886 Greek
    13.69630607 Albanian_North
    14.63272210 Italy_FriuliVG
    14.85030850 Swiss_Italian
    14.95477500 Italy_Calabria
    15.92765394 Italy_Trentino
    16.62573006 Ashkenazi
    17.11678124 Ashkenazy_Jews
    18.65887850 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    18.94861736 Greek_Crete

    Distance to: R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    4.49812139 France_Corsica
    4.96607873 Italy_Marche
    5.31727374 Italy_Romagna
    6.44594865 Italy_Lazio
    6.54767058 Italy_Tuscany
    8.04215637 Italy_Emilia
    8.47331258 Italy_Liguria
    9.53350878 Italy_Abruzzo
    11.02661950 Italy_Lombardy
    11.16114448 Italy_Campania
    12.10129167 Italy_Piedmont
    12.10660832 Italy_Sicily
    12.24339201 Italy_Apulia
    12.35617683 Italy_Veneto
    12.73767640 Albanian_Kosovo
    13.05106126 Greek
    13.52740552 Albanian_North
    14.22096119 Italy_Calabria
    14.57645828 Italy_FriuliVG
    14.99245018 Swiss_Italian
    16.04054675 Italy_Trentino
    16.05808830 Ashkenazi
    16.61078866 Ashkenazy_Jews
    18.48370093 Greek_Crete
    18.66171417 Italy_Aosta_Valley

    The fits aren't as good using the updated samples, and they don't make as much sense to me for samples all from Rome.

    Only problem, of course, is that the original dodecad is missing samples from certain areas.

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