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Thread: Analysing Iron Age Italian samples

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't understand your terminology. The people in Civitavecchia were Etruscans. There's no reason to assume they were anything else. Now, whether those Etruscans will prove slightly different from Etruscans in other areas I don't know. I think we've seen from other situations that it can take a long time for admixtures to stabilize. Maybe further north they were a bit more "northern".

    Regardless, they present as a combination of EEF "like" farmers admixed with a steppe admixed population. To know what their steppe ancestors were like upon arrival in Italy we'd need older samples, and we'd probably find them further north.

    As for the North African admixed Etruscan, we don't have enough information to label that ancestry "Carthaginian". It was perhaps a grandparent, so back date the admixture accordingly. Nor should we assume that this was other than a one off.

    The fact remains that Herodotus was wrong, and everyone who relied so heavily on him was wrong. The ancestors of the Etruscans were the local farmers and steppe admixed people from the north.

    Yes, there was most probably Bronze Age migration from the southeast into Italy before the Iron Age, but that wasn't an important element in the Etruscans from what we can see so far. No do we know the size of that migration.
    Yes the Anatolian theory is sadly still held up even by many otherwise respectable historians, maybe it's not going to be straightforward to explain how such a Indoeuropean looking population ended up speaking a non IE language(although I've seen fringe theories claiming Etruscans were somehow IE, honestly the more I read the less I'm sure of) but it's going to make tons more sense than believing any random ancient migration theory.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucket View Post
    Yes the Anatolian theory is sadly still held up even by many otherwise respectable historians, maybe it's not going to be straightforward to explain how such a Indoeuropean looking population ended up speaking a non IE language(although I've seen fringe theories claiming Etruscans were somehow IE, honestly the more I read the less I'm sure of) but it's going to make tons more sense than believing any random ancient migration theory.
    We know what Bronze and Iron Age Anatolians looked like genetically, and they weren't a founding population of the Etruscans. There's no getting around it, no matter how attached people were to the Herodotus tale or how much they don't want to admit they were wrong.

    They're also not some "Pelasgian" group that moved over from Greece. Italy had its own Middle to Late Neolithic farmers, thank you very much, no need to import some from elsewhere. :) Also, there's the WHG and steppe ancestry to consider.

    Whether a Bronze Age population from Greece and/or Anatolia, followed by an Iron Age migration during the Magna Graecia period made its way to southern Italy and then up the peninsula is another question, as is whether the "locals" were already pretty similar anyway.

    "Ci vuole un po' di pazienza", as we say. :)

    None of that has anything to do with the Etruscans.

    As for the language, well, I've yet to hear an explanation for the R1b Basques speaking a non-Indo-European language either.


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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Here is a PCA of coordinates I composed of Iron Age, and Medieval Italian samples with Dodecad Global 13:

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Yeah even before the ancient DNA from Anatolia the Y-DNA of Tuscans suggested that Herodotus's hypothesis concerning the origin of Etruscans was wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here is a PCA of coordinates I composed of Iron Age, and Medieval Italian samples with Dodecad Global 13:

    interesting

    I sit directly north of R55 on the line

    what does the shading colours represent

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    interesting

    I sit directly north of R55 on the line

    what does the shading colours represent
    it just helps to highlight the continuum within each grouping of samples.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Here is a PCA I composed with Dodecad Globe 13 results:


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Also,

    Here is the Dodecad K12b PCA:


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    Thanks, Jovialis.

    Do you have a link to a full size version which is easier to read?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks, Jovialis.

    Do you have a link to a full size version which is easier to read?
    If you save the image to your PC, it should be viewable in it's native resolution.

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    Here is the Eurogenes K36 PCA. TBH, it looks very inaccurate, not even trying to talk crap here. (for example the Mesolithic HGs plot far to close to other samples. R475, clusters with other northern Iron Age samples, when It should be out far on its own. R437's postion is wrong, etc.) FYI the method I used to compose it is devoid of any human error on my part. The results are copy and pasted straight from the calculator, which took several hours to process:


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    ^here is a screen cap of the excel coordinates for K36. They are downloaded from ENA, converted in WGSextract to combined format, than converted to Ancestry format in DNAkit studio, and processed through Admixture Studio for the results:


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