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Thread: Analysing Iron Age Italian samples

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't understand your terminology. The people in Civitavecchia were Etruscans. There's no reason to assume they were anything else. Now, whether those Etruscans will prove slightly different from Etruscans in other areas I don't know. I think we've seen from other situations that it can take a long time for admixtures to stabilize. Maybe further north they were a bit more "northern".

    Regardless, they present as a combination of EEF "like" farmers admixed with a steppe admixed population. To know what their steppe ancestors were like upon arrival in Italy we'd need older samples, and we'd probably find them further north.

    As for the North African admixed Etruscan, we don't have enough information to label that ancestry "Carthaginian". It was perhaps a grandparent, so back date the admixture accordingly. Nor should we assume that this was other than a one off.

    The fact remains that Herodotus was wrong, and everyone who relied so heavily on him was wrong. The ancestors of the Etruscans were the local farmers and steppe admixed people from the north.

    Yes, there was most probably Bronze Age migration from the southeast into Italy before the Iron Age, but that wasn't an important element in the Etruscans from what we can see so far. No do we know the size of that migration.
    Yes the Anatolian theory is sadly still held up even by many otherwise respectable historians, maybe it's not going to be straightforward to explain how such a Indoeuropean looking population ended up speaking a non IE language(although I've seen fringe theories claiming Etruscans were somehow IE, honestly the more I read the less I'm sure of) but it's going to make tons more sense than believing any random ancient migration theory.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucket View Post
    Yes the Anatolian theory is sadly still held up even by many otherwise respectable historians, maybe it's not going to be straightforward to explain how such a Indoeuropean looking population ended up speaking a non IE language(although I've seen fringe theories claiming Etruscans were somehow IE, honestly the more I read the less I'm sure of) but it's going to make tons more sense than believing any random ancient migration theory.
    We know what Bronze and Iron Age Anatolians looked like genetically, and they weren't a founding population of the Etruscans. There's no getting around it, no matter how attached people were to the Herodotus tale or how much they don't want to admit they were wrong.

    They're also not some "Pelasgian" group that moved over from Greece. Italy had its own Middle to Late Neolithic farmers, thank you very much, no need to import some from elsewhere. :) Also, there's the WHG and steppe ancestry to consider.

    Whether a Bronze Age population from Greece and/or Anatolia, followed by an Iron Age migration during the Magna Graecia period made its way to southern Italy and then up the peninsula is another question, as is whether the "locals" were already pretty similar anyway.

    "Ci vuole un po' di pazienza", as we say. :)

    None of that has anything to do with the Etruscans.

    As for the language, well, I've yet to hear an explanation for the R1b Basques speaking a non-Indo-European language either.


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    Here is a PCA of coordinates I composed of Iron Age, and Medieval Italian samples with Dodecad Global 13:


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    Yeah even before the ancient DNA from Anatolia the Y-DNA of Tuscans suggested that Herodotus's hypothesis concerning the origin of Etruscans was wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here is a PCA of coordinates I composed of Iron Age, and Medieval Italian samples with Dodecad Global 13:

    interesting

    I sit directly north of R55 on the line

    what does the shading colours represent
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-Y33791
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    interesting

    I sit directly north of R55 on the line

    what does the shading colours represent
    it just helps to highlight the continuum within each grouping of samples.

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    Here is a PCA I composed with Dodecad Globe 13 results:


  8. #83
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    Also,

    Here is the Dodecad K12b PCA:


  9. #84
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    Thanks, Jovialis.

    Do you have a link to a full size version which is easier to read?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks, Jovialis.

    Do you have a link to a full size version which is easier to read?
    If you save the image to your PC, it should be viewable in it's native resolution.

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    Here is the Eurogenes K36 PCA. TBH, it looks very inaccurate, not even trying to talk crap here. (for example the Mesolithic HGs plot far to close to other samples. R475, clusters with other northern Iron Age samples, when It should be out far on its own. R437's postion is wrong, etc.) FYI the method I used to compose it is devoid of any human error on my part. The results are copy and pasted straight from the calculator, which took several hours to process:


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    ^here is a screen cap of the excel coordinates for K36. They are downloaded from ENA, converted in WGSextract to combined format, than converted to Ancestry format in DNAkit studio, and processed through Admixture Studio for the results:


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    I read somewhere that Samnites were genetically like Estrucans. Can someone elaborate on it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I read somewhere that Samnites were genetically like Estrucans. Can someone elaborate on it?
    Someone told me that on Anthrogenica. But until I see actual proof, it is not verifiable. We don't want to trust the rumor-mill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Someone told me that on Anthrogenica. But until I see actual proof, it is not verifiable. We don't want to trust the rumor-mill.
    Same for me. I heard it from there too.
    It really sounded strange to me, but if there is proof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Same for me. I heard it from there too.
    It really sounded strange to me, but if there is proof.
    I would image, they would be similar to R1 at the very least. But that is purely my conjecture.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Bronze Age Beaker sample from Sicily.
    Distance to: I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily
    17.75790528 Morocco_Jews
    18.68690451 Sephardic_Jews
    20.97808233 Italy_Calabria
    21.34804441 Ashkenazi
    21.53729198 Italy_Campania
    22.10654428 Ashkenazy_Jews
    22.14209035 Italy_Sicily
    23.06039410 France_Corsica
    23.21633691 Italy_Abruzzo
    24.42997540 Italy_Marche
    24.76014943 Greek_Crete
    25.52503884 Italy_Apulia
    25.78033095 Italy_Lazio
    26.09522945 Greek
    26.45275033 Italy_Romagna
    27.37371002 Cypriots
    27.69570021 Italy_Tuscany
    28.93280683 Italy_Emilia
    29.16867275 Italy_Liguria
    29.84378662 Greek_Cappadocia
    31.19259556 Italy_Lombardy
    31.21225240 Nusayri_Turkey
    32.33615314 Crimean_Tatar_Coast
    32.69854890 Italy_Piedmont
    32.70471526 Albanian_Kosovo
    Fits are bad, but more eastern and even southeastern ancestry was already in Sicily pretty damn early, I would say.
    Original dodecad seems more reasonable, as always, though the fits are still bad.
    Distance to: I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily
    17.75790528 Morocco_Jews
    18.18684415 Sicilian
    18.68690451 Sephardic_Jews
    19.18726140 S_Italian_Sicilian
    21.20363412 C_Italian
    21.34804441 Ashkenazi
    22.10654428 Ashkenazy_Jews
    23.35725583 Tuscan
    24.08437253 TSI30
    26.09522945 Greek
    27.25755308 O_Italian
    27.37371002 Cypriots
    28.92887312 North_Italian
    30.30025412 N_Italian
    33.40130237 Canarias
    34.58367245 Andalucia
    35.04589848 Baleares
    35.06321149 Sardinian
    35.24731195 Murcia
    35.29380966 Lebanese
    35.44868122 Turkish
    35.86672413 Druze
    36.96170992 Extremadura
    37.15035128 Galicia
    37.28312085 Portuguese
    As I said, I think something is wrong with the samples people just added to the "updated" sources, using their "own" collection, instead of academic samples.
    Can you do one for Minoans please?
    As in Minoans vs modern populations.

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    Bronze Age Beaker_Sicily closest fit is Minoan I9129. 0.25X provides nice fit. So this Sicilian_Beaker definitely EEF/Anatolian type ancestry looking at it. What academic paper actually has the analysis of the Sicilian Bell Beaker if someone doesn't mind referring it to me. Definitely looks like Neolithic/EEF ancestry from Anatolia was in Sicily well before the Greek colonization, which is not unexpected and surprising to me. I would assume that is the case on the Southern Italian peninsula as well.

    Distance to: I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily
    5.09041256 I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    7.54527667 Kumtepe006_Anatolian
    8.19122701 I3498_Balkans_Neolithic
    8.48055423 I0174_BAM25_Starcevo_EN_Alsónyék-Bátaszék_Mérnöki_telep_Hungary_5710-5530_calBCE
    8.59672030 I3709_Peloponnese_Neolithic
    9.11530032 Anatolia_N_Bar8_Barcin
    9.18082785 I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    9.36654686 I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    9.45330630 I2519_Balkans_Chalcolithic
    9.63348846 I3708_Peloponnese_Neolithic
    9.65005699 Anatolia_N_Bar31_Barcin
    9.75822217 I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
    9.76232042 I2521_Balkans_Neolithic
    9.80853710 Anatolia_N_Klei10
    10.14526491 I0026_LBK2155_LBK_EN_Viesenhäuser_Hof_Stuttgart-Mühlhausen_Germany_5500-4800_BCE
    10.14526491 I0054_UWS4_LBK_EN_Unterwiederstedt_Germany_5209-5070_calBCE
    10.32477118 I2509_Balkans_Chalcolithic
    10.33054210 I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
    10.76344740 I0795_KAR6_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany_5207-5070_calBCE
    10.93214983 I0633_Balkans_Neolithic
    11.12777606 I3719_Ukraine_Neolithic_outlier
    11.19070597 I3125_Sicily_MBA_Buffa_Cave_II
    11.22929205 I2318_Peloponnese_Neolithic
    11.27929962 I2427_Balkans_Chalcolithic
    11.35000441 I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete

    Target: I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily
    Distance: 2.7639% / 2.76394377 | ADC: 0.25x
    85.4 I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    6.8 ASH2-3_Iron_Age1
    4.8 I12650_SE_Iberia_c.10-16CE
    3.0 I15940_Sardinia_Chalcolithic_Anghelu_Ruju

  19. #94
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    That's an old rumor, isn't it?

    Sabines or Samnites? Do they even know the difference over there? If it's Sabines it makes complete sense.



    Samnites

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    Here are some interesting results using Dodecad K7b, with select coordinates I produced for Ancient West Eurasia. The Iron Age Latini, Etruscans, Protovillanovan, and Villanovan, can be modeled with a large amount of Beaker_N_Italy_BA. While the Mediterranean era averages can be modeled with a large amount of Mycenaean; I fit in pretty well with these cohorts. Finally, the Eastern Mediterranean era averages are modeled with a large amount of Anatolian_ChL.

    Source:

    Code:
    Alberstedt_LN,2.29,13.25,0.99,0.92,14.22,68.33,0
    Anatolia_ChL,0,36.33,0.09,1.55,38.43,23.6,0
    Armenia_ChL,2.171666667,46.255,0.611666667,1.153333333,28.04,21.77,0
    Armenia_EBA,3.46,57.63,0,1.595,25.915,11.405,0
    Armenia_MLBA,2.5,49.05,1.57,0.99,21.07,24.82,0
    Armenian_LBA,0.298,48.248,0,0.202,17.704,33.548,0
    Baalberge_MN,0,0,0,0.14,43.04333333,56.81666667,0
    BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN,2.373333333,18.51666667,0.646666667,1.366666667,6.043333333,71.05333333,0
    Corded_Ware_LN,2.605,24.2625,2.125,1.4925,0.3675,69.15,0
    Esperstedt_MN,0,0,0,0.37,42.07,57.41,0.15
    Beaker_Germany_LN,0.841666667,13.105,1.873333333,0.706666667,12.23333333,70.97333333,0.266666667
    Halberstadt_LBA,1.13,13.81,1.75,0.9,7.25,75.15,0
    Iran_ChL,5.574,61.688,0.576,1.712,30.394,0,0.052
    Iran_HotuIIIb,17.99,72.88,1.56,3.99,3.34,0.24,0
    Iran_LN_Seh_Gabi,13.3,73.34,0,2.74,10.62,0,0
    Iran_N,16.082,71.016,0,9.254,3.15,0.36,0.138
    Karelia_HG,5.29,2.76,12.39,0.43,0,79.14,0
    Karsdorf_LN,7.14,21.17,0,0,0,70.63,1.07
    LBK_EN,0,5.869166667,0.020833333,0.641666667,51.03333333,42.13583333,0.299166667
    LBKT_EN,0,10,0,0,47,42.23,0.76
    Levant_BA,1.296666667,35.39333333,0,2.24,50.72,8.506666667,1.84
    Levant_N,0.177692308,15.87076923,0.465384615,1.866923077,65.30384615,15.39461538,0.923076923
    Motala_HG,1.49,0,3.772857143,0.711428571,0,94.02571429,0
    Natufian,2.846666667,3.42,0.741666667,6.545,74.79333333,8.843333333,2.806666667
    Samara_HG,8.67,6.77,10.09,1.06,0,73.41,0
    Spain_MN,0.244444444,0.238888889,0,0.13,46.87777778,52.22222222,0.288888889
    Starcevo_EN,0,5.35,0,0.68,57.38,36.59,0
    Unetice_EBA,1.27625,14.61125,1.17625,0.91125,7.40875,74.3325,0.28375
    Yamnaya,5.25,32.85666667,3.213333333,0.723333333,0,57.95666667,0
    C_Italian_Mesolithic,0.263333333,0.003333333,0.263333333,10.04,0.003333333,89.14666667,0.276666667
    C_Italian_Neolithic,0,4.83,0,0.257142857,49.71071429,45.17714286,0.024285714
    France_BA,0.606428571,7.231428571,0.757857143,0.526428571,20.09928571,70.515,0.264285714
    Minoan_Lasithi,0,23.082,0,0.378,49.684,26.816,0.042
    Anatolian_BA,0,33.25666667,0.103333333,2.343333333,41.13666667,22.79,0.37
    Greece_Neolithic,0,13.15,0,2.15,49.96,33.94,0.8
    Mycenaean,0.2125,20.6,0.22,1.2275,41.1075,36.4125,0.22
    Minoan_Odigitria,0,18.602,0.504,0.172,50.722,29.712,0.29
    Beaker_N_Italy_BA,0.093333333,6.84,0.036666667,0.536666667,34.31,57.68333333,0.496666667
    Beaker_Sicily_BA,0,16.89,0.31,1.2,49.94,31.66,0
    Imp_Rome_North_African_C3,0,17.855,0,8.075,45.33,27.645,1.095
    Imp_Rome_Near_Eastern_C4,0.660769231,38.07,0.023076923,1.59,43.34846154,15.91230769,0.396923077
    Ötzi,0,1.4,0,0.8,51.9,43.1,2.8
    Target:

    Code:
    Protovillanovan_IA,0,17.8,1.55,0.39,26.65,53.61,0
    Villanovan_IA,0,9.46,0,0,32.43,57.92,0.19
    Latin_Prenestini_Tribe_IA,0,9.15,0.25,0.54,25.13,64.93,0
    Etruscan_IA,0,12.45,0.07,0.71,29.545,57.235,0
    Latini_IA,0.086666667,10.06333333,0.13,0.156666667,29.12333333,60.21,0.23
    C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean(R437),0,25.22,0,0.48,36.72,37.58,0
    C6_Imperial_Roman_Mediterranean_Avrg,0.138571429,27.47785714,0.097142857,0.508571429,34.99571429,36.42857143,0.354285714
    C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean_Avrg,0.36375,23.61625,0.08375,0.8,35.0875,40.0525,0
    C6_Medieval_Mediterranean_Avrg,0.089411765,25.04588235,0.171764706,0.902941176,34.46529412,39.03,0.296470588
    C5_Iron_Age_Eastern_Mediterranean(R850),0,32.01,0,1.09,39.03,27.2,0.67
    C5_Imperial_Roman_Eastern_Mediterranean_Avrg,0.197272727,32.46363636,0.038181818,0.667727273,40.02772727,26.42,0.184090909
    C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean_Avrg,0.046,28.432,0,1.626,37.802,31.554,0.538

  21. #96
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  22. #97
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    Distance to: Dodecad_k7b_Stuvanè
    14.62121822 Beaker_N_Italy_BA
    17.67797288 Mycenaean
    20.48622464 LBKT_EN
    23.26439984 Esperstedt_MN
    23.59573808 Baalberge_MN
    24.40283223 C_Italian_Neolithic
    24.92041151 Spain_MN
    24.97014017 Alberstedt_LN
    25.47950054 France_BA
    25.71299833 LBK_EN
    26.22964163 Greece_Neolithic
    27.10936923 Beaker_Sicily_BA
    28.15569836 Beaker_Germany_LN
    28.32738251 Imp_Rome_North_African_C3
    28.74970435 Ötzi
    28.94522192 Minoan_Odigitria
    30.70149742 Minoan_Lasithi
    32.10004621 BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN
    32.96057561 Anatolian_BA
    32.96632069 Anatolia_ChL
    33.14476580 Starcevo_EN
    33.55517886 Unetice_EBA
    34.37194496 Halberstadt_LBA
    34.85938627 Yamnaya
    36.02412135 Corded_Ware_LN

    Target: Dodecad_k7b_Stuvanè
    Distance: 1.0335% / 1.03348866 | ADC: 0.25x
    64.4 Beaker_N_Italy_BA
    21.8 Armenian_LBA
    11.2 Mycenaean
    2.6 Yamnaya

  23. #98
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    4,783

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Armenia_LBA has a relatively large amount of EHG, (the rest mostly Iran_N-like ancestry, and Anatolian_N); especially compared to modern-day Armenians, and precursors to LBA. Even R1 Protovillanovan gets a respectable amount, 16.6%. I wonder if Armenia_LBA, combined with samples like BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN, are currently taking the place for these C6 samples of what a better fitting Italic tribe may look like, particularly Osco-Umbrian tribes.





    Last edited by Jovialis; 19-09-20 at 18:16.

  24. #99
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Posts
    860

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2-M223
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2A3

    Ethnic group
    Italian-Siicly-South
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Jovialis: Thanks for that analysis in post #95, My admixture results are very, very, similar to what your models shows for C6_IronAge_R437. In every distance I get from various Calculators, R437 is always very close to me. Good job again and very informative post #95.

    Target: PalermoTrapani
    Distance: 0.9301% / 0.93005882 | ADC: 0.25x
    85.0 Mycenaean
    12.0 Armenian_LBA
    2.0 Yamnaya
    1.0 Corded_Ware_LN

  25. #100
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    4,783

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Indeed, those are comparable figures.

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