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Thread: Analysing Iron Age Italian samples

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    4 members found this post helpful.

    Post Analysing Iron Age Italian samples

    The Antonio et al. (2019) paper on Ancient Rome was released 2 and a half months ago, so I am coming a bit late for the analysis, but I had been busy before.

    Using the Dodecad K12b data provided by Jovialis, I created a table of the 11 Iron Age samples from this study.

    ID Date Y-DNA Gedrosia Siberia NW African SE Asia AtlanticMed North
    Europe
    South Asia East
    Africa
    SW Asia East
    Asia
    Caucasus SSA
    R1 (Protovillanovan) Martinsicuro 930-839 BCE 5.02 1.78 1.33 0,00 35.08 26.46 0,00 0,00 5.43 0,00 24.50 0.4
    R1015 (Villanovan) Veio Grotta Gramiccia 900-800 BCE - 1.56 0.19 2.85 0,00 47.15 21.66 0,00 0,00 5.46 0,00 20.85 0,00
    R1016 (Latin) Castel di Decima 900-700 BCE R1b 3.86 0.98 1.53 0.19 47.23 20.37 1.43 0,00 3.31 0,00 21.10 0,00
    R1021 (Latin) Boville Ernica 700-600 BCE R1b 2.11 0,00 1.96 0.6 47.70 24.04 0,00 0,00 1.33 0,00 22.26 0,00
    R435 (Latin) Palestrina Colombella 600-200 BCE R1b 4.84 0.64 0.65 0,00 47.12 28.54 0.15 0,00 4.13 0,00 13.40 0.53
    R437 (Latin) Palestrina Selicata 400-200 BCE R1b 6.45 0,00 3.03 0,00 33.19 11.94 0,00 0,00 11.63 0,00 33.74 0.02
    R473 (Etruscan) Civitavecchia 700-600 BCE - 1,00 0,00 0.68 0.15 47.26 22.79 0,00 0.21 7.39 0.21 20.17 0.34
    R474 (Etruscan) Civitavecchia 700-600 BCE J2b 7.18 0.17 2.38 0,00 39.08 25.74 0,00 0,00 5.98 0,00 18.84 0.66
    R475 (Etruscan) Civitavecchia 700-600 BCE - 0,00 0,00 13.01 0,00 38.12 12.14 0.37 1.98 11.26 0,00 22.70 0.42
    R850 (Greek) Ardea 800-500 BCE T1a 7.30 0,00 4.52 1,00 21.26 10.54 0,00 0.43 14.77 0,00 40.10 0,00
    R851 (Latin) Ardea 800-500 BCE R1b 1.59 0,00 1.39 0,00 49.28 24.97 0,00 0.14 1.93 0,00 20.26 0.45

    R437 from Palestrina Selicata appears to be an indigenous Campanian, possibly of (partial) Greek origin, that was assimilated by Latin tribes. Or someone with mixed ancestry. R850 is clearly an Aegean Greek immigrant (very similar to modern Cretans).

    Analysing admixtures

    What struck me at first is the presence of Mongoloid admixture in most samples (only R437, R475 and R851 lack it). This is mostly Siberian admixture, but there are also traces of East Asian and Southeast Asian. This alludes to a sort of ancient Altaic admixture. It peaks at 1.78% in the Protovillanovan individual, who is the oldest, and would be a relatively new arrival to Italy. Does that mean that the Proto-Italics possessed some kind of Siberian admixture, which spread throughout Italy and faded as they intermingled with locals? Nowadays it's so diluted as to be virtually undetectable among modern Italians (bar a few exceptions).

    The second intriguing thing is the presence of Northwest African and Southwest Asian admixture in all samples. The combination of these two admixtures, combined with elevated Caucasus admixture, first made me think of the Carthaginians. Modern and Bronze Age Lebanese have high Southwest Asian and Caucasian admixture with some Gedrosian. But they also possess some Northwest African. This is surely a component that was originally Levantine and brought to Northwest Africa by the Phoenicians/Carthaginians - not actual Northwest African genes that travelled to the Near East. But why would all Iron Age Italians possess Levantine admixture, since the Phoenician did colonise the Italian peninsula (only parts of Sicily and Sardinia)?

    I had a look at modern Greeks K12b admixtures. Most Greek have only traces of NW African admixture. But those from Crete (and presumably some other Aegean islands) possess 2.6% of it. They also have higher Southwest Asian admixture (14.5%) than the Greek average (10%). So could it be mixed Greek ancestry in all these samples? The Aegean-looking sample from Ardea (R850) has the most Southwest Asian (14.8%) and Northwest African (4.5%), not far from that of modern Cretans. Other samples, the proportion of Southwest Asian to Northwest African varies a lot though. Some samples have more NW African than SW Asian.

    One odd case is the R475 Etruscan from Civitavecchia, displaying as much as 13% of NW African, with also considerable SW Asian (11%) and Caucasus (22.5%). As Civitavecchia is a coastal city that had trade links with North Africa in Etruscan times, I would think that this individual has mixed Carthaginian and Etruscan ancestry. This individual has also 2.5% of East Africa + Sub-Saharan Africa, and that would be more likely if that person had actual North African roots (Northwest African native mixed with Phoenician) blended with Etruscan.
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    3 members found this post helpful.

    Etruscans vs Italics

    I have been thinking about the origins of the Etruscans. Seeing how similar the Etruscans are with the Latins or Villanovans, I imagined the following scenario.

    R1b Italic tribes crossed the Alps from Central Europe and spread over the Italian peninsula, mixing with the locals. The new hybrid populations had to choose one of the two languages, either local or Italic. In some areas, presumably where indigenous people were slightly more numerous or better established politically (in fertile agricultural plains), the local Etruscan language remained dominant in the new hybrid population. In other areas, apparently the mountainous and hilly parts of the peninsula better suited to the more nomadic Indo-European lifestyle, Italic tribes became socially dominant and imposed their language on the locals.

    In both cases, the new population was a hybrid of Italics and locals (Etruscans or related tribes), but in some region one language was chosen, while in others it was the other language.

    Perhaps the merger of the two population was more gradual, with Italic women progressively marrying to neighbouring Etruscan tribes, while Etruscan women married into Italic tribes. That would explain why Latin samples were overwhelmingly R1b, while the only Etruscan Y-DNA so far was J2b.

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    5 members found this post helpful.
    Maciamo, I would not take too literally the results of an old calculator whose components are based on modern samples and has been created before the discovery of the various ancestral components (EEF, WHG, CHG, EHG...). Also the EEF ancient samples from Germany, Austria and Hungary get NW African, SW Asian and Caucasus on K12b, and these components also remain in Bronze Age samples, traces of these components are also found in the Bell Beaker samples from Southern Europe. These components on K12b are not always the sign of recent admixing.


    LBK, Stuttgart (Neolithic of Germany)


    Gedrosia -
    Siberian -
    Northwest_African 3.82 Pct
    Southeast_Asian 0.07 Pct
    Atlantic_Med 54.93 Pct
    North_European 0.12 Pct
    South_Asian -
    East_African -
    Southwest_Asian 10.79 Pct
    East_Asian -
    Caucasus 30.28 Pct
    Sub_Saharan -


    NE1, Hungary (Neolithic of Hungary)


    Gedrosia -
    Siberian -
    Northwest_African 2.79 Pct
    Southeast_Asian -
    Atlantic_Med 49.89 Pct
    North_European 4.69 Pct
    South_Asian -
    East_African -
    Southwest_Asian 12.89 Pct
    East_Asian -
    Caucasus 29.69 Pct
    Sub_Saharan -


    Also the ANF from Barcin get both NW African and SW Asian and high Caucasus.

    I0707 Anatolian Neolithic Barcin 6500-6200 BCE

    Gedrosia -
    Siberian -
    Northwest_African 2.27 Pct
    Southeast_Asian -
    Atlantic_Med 48.48 Pct
    North_European -
    South_Asian -
    East_African -
    Southwest_Asian 12.16 Pct
    East_Asian -
    Caucasus 37.05 Pct
    Sub_Saharan -


    I0709 Anatolian Neolithic Barcin H2-M282 6500-6200 BCE


    Gedrosia -
    Siberian -
    Northwest_African 1.60 Pct
    Southeast_Asian -
    Atlantic_Med 52.11 Pct
    North_European -
    South_Asian -
    East_African -
    Southwest_Asian 13.31 Pct
    East_Asian -
    Caucasus 32.85 Pct
    Sub_Saharan 0.13 Pct


    The presence of non completely native people between Latins and Etruscans is not so strange. The study itself assumes that they are partly of foreign origin. Also because the study chose to analyze some necropolises, particularly in the Etruscan case, which were located in commercial outposts. The necropolis of Civitavecchia "La Mattonara" is on the sea, it was a commercial outpost in particular with Sardinia. It is through the Phoenician colonies of Sardinia that trade between Etruscans and Phoenicians mainly takes place. Just as we know that the Latins had also their orientalizing phase thanks mainly to contacts with Campania and in Latium vetus there were foreigners. We still do not know if the oldest inscription found in Latium vetus (Osteria dell'Osa) is written in Greek or Latin.

    Clearly only subsequent studies can tell us how common these foreign presences were among Latins and Etruscans.
    Last edited by Pax Augusta; 25-01-20 at 22:37.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    The ancient Icelandic, Anglo-Saxon gladiators, Iron age Irish, Mycenaen, and the WHG/ la Brana sample, etc. score also Subsaharan African, etc. on gedmatch. According to Davidski is not a real admixture but a pseudo-African signal due to post mortem damage of the DNA. So I don‘t really trust the calculatorS like gedmatch or K12b to be accurate when it comes to determining the admixture of ancient people. Besides Neanderthals score on gedmatch around 90% and on K13 around 80% Subsaharan African. Just saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have been thinking about the origins of the Etruscans. Seeing how similar the Etruscans are with the Latins or Villanovans, I imagined the following scenario.

    R1b Italic tribes crossed the Alps from Central Europe and spread over the Italian peninsula, mixing with the locals. The new hybrid populations had to choose one of the two languages, either local or Italic. In some areas, presumably where indigenous people were slightly more numerous or better established politically (in fertile agricultural plains), the local Etruscan language remained dominant in the new hybrid population. In other areas, apparently the mountainous and hilly parts of the peninsula better suited to the more nomadic Indo-European lifestyle, Italic tribes became socially dominant and imposed their language on the locals.

    In both cases, the new population was a hybrid of Italics and locals (Etruscans or related tribes), but in some region one language was chosen, while in others it was the other language.

    Perhaps the merger of the two population was more gradual, with Italic women progressively marrying to neighbouring Etruscan tribes, while Etruscan women married into Italic tribes. That would explain why Latin samples were overwhelmingly R1b, while the only Etruscan Y-DNA so far was J2b.

    We have to wait for the other paper that also tested Etruscans to get some more insight concerning the Etruscans. According to some leaks some Etruscan samples were R1b and one even I1. None of the Etruscan samples showed North African admixture like the Etruscan outlier in the Moots study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    We have to wait for the other paper that also tested Etruscans to get some more insight concerning the Etruscans. According to some leaks some Etruscan samples were R1b and one even I1. None of the Etruscan samples showed North African admixture like the Etruscan outlier in the Moots study.
    which other paper?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    From the paper:

    "Although we were able to model eight of the 11 individuals as two-way mixtures of Copper Age central Italians and a Steppe-related population (~24 to 38%) using qpAdm, this model was rejected for the other three individuals (p < 0.001; table S16). Instead, two individuals from Latin sites (R437 and R850) can be modeled as a mixture between local people and an ancient Near Eastern population (best approximated by Bronze Age Armenian or Iron Age Anatolian; tables S17 and S18). An Etruscan individual (R475) carries significant African ancestry identified by f-statistics (|Z-score|>3; fig. S2, 3)."

    The R437 sample has some degree of such ancestry, and R850 about half.

    It should be kept in mind that these are very early periods, so we are seeing that by the Iron Age Latins were absorbing some "Iran Neo" ancestry, although, `as the study makes clear, there was already some Iran Neo like ancestry already in Italy in the Neolithic.

    This is all reflected in the relevant PCAs in the paper.

    As for the "identity" of these samples, there is no question. They were members of local tribes.





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    R850 and Ardea, the Rutuli people

    Some say he was cretan others cypriot ..............latest a Duanian from Foggia or from Greek Argos .....................no ones knows

    from site
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...3A1999.04.0064


    RU´TULI

    Eth. RU´TULI (Eth. Ῥούτουλοι), a people of ancient Italy, who, according to a tradition generally received in later times, were settled at a very early period in a part of Latium, adjoining the sea-coast, their capital city being Ardea. The prominent part that they and their king Turnus bear in the legendary history of Aeneas and the Trojan settlement, especially in the form in which this has been worked up by Virgil, has given great celebrity to their name, but they appear to have been, in fact, even according to these very traditions, a small and unimportant people. Their king Turnus himself is represented as dependent on Latinus; and it is certain that in the historical period Ardea was one of the cities of the Latin League (Dionys. A. R. 5.61), while the name of the Rutuli had become merged in that of the Latin people. Not long before this indeed Livy represents the Rutuli as a still existing people, and the arms of Tarquinius Superbus as directed against them when he proceeded to attack Ardea, just before his expulsion. (Liv. 1.56, 57.) According to this narrative Ardea was not taken, but we learn from much better authority (the treaty between Rome and Carthage preserved by Polybius, 3.22) that it had fallen under the power of the Romans before the close of the monarchy, and it is possible that the extinction of the Rutuli as an independent people may date from this period. The only other mention of the Rutuli which can be called historical is that their name is found in the list given by Cato (ap. Priscian. 4.4. p. 629) of the cities that took part in the foundation of the celebrated temple of Diana at Aricia, a list in all probability founded upon some ancient record; and it is remarkable that they here figure as distinct from the Ardeates. There were some obscure traditions in antiquity that represented Ardea as founded by a colony from Argos [ARDEA], and these are regarded by Niebuhr as tending to prove that the Rutuli were a Pelasgic race. (Nieb. vol. i. p. 44, vol. ii. p. 21.) Schwegler, on the other hand considers them as connected with the Etruscans, and probably a relic of the period when that people had extended their dominion throughout Latium and Campania. This theory finds some support in the name of Turnus, which may probably be connected with Tyrrhenus, as well as in the union which the legend represents as subsisting between Turnus and the Etruscan king Mezentius. (Schwegler, Röm. Gesch. vol. i. pp. 330, 331.) But the whole subject is so mixed up with fable and poetical invention, that it is impossible to feel confidence in any such conjectures.



    http://real.mtak.hu/44351/1/068.2015.55.1-4.26.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    R850 and Ardea, the Rutuli people

    Some say he was cretan others cypriot ..............latest a Duanian from Foggia or from Greek Argos .....................no ones knows

    RU´TULI

    Eth. RU´TULI (Eth. Ῥούτουλοι), a people of ancient Italy, who, according to a tradition generally received in later times, were settled at a very early period in a part of Latium, adjoining the sea-coast, their capital city being Ardea. The prominent part that they and their king Turnus bear in the legendary history of Aeneas and the Trojan settlement, especially in the form in which this has been worked up by Virgil, has given great celebrity to their name, but they appear to have been, in fact, even according to these very traditions, a small and unimportant people. Their king Turnus himself is represented as dependent on Latinus; and it is certain that in the historical period Ardea was one of the cities of the Latin League (Dionys. A. R. 5.61), while the name of the Rutuli had become merged in that of the Latin people. Not long before this indeed Livy represents the Rutuli as a still existing people, and the arms of Tarquinius Superbus as directed against them when he proceeded to attack Ardea, just before his expulsion. (Liv. 1.56, 57.) According to this narrative Ardea was not taken, but we learn from much better authority (the treaty between Rome and Carthage preserved by Polybius, 3.22) that it had fallen under the power of the Romans before the close of the monarchy, and it is possible that the extinction of the Rutuli as an independent people may date from this period. The only other mention of the Rutuli which can be called historical is that their name is found in the list given by Cato (ap. Priscian. 4.4. p. 629) of the cities that took part in the foundation of the celebrated temple of Diana at Aricia, a list in all probability founded upon some ancient record; and it is remarkable that they here figure as distinct from the Ardeates. There were some obscure traditions in antiquity that represented Ardea as founded by a colony from Argos [ARDEA], and these are regarded by Niebuhr as tending to prove that the Rutuli were a Pelasgic race. (Nieb. vol. i. p. 44, vol. ii. p. 21.) Schwegler, on the other hand considers them as connected with the Etruscans, and probably a relic of the period when that people had extended their dominion throughout Latium and Campania. This theory finds some support in the name of Turnus, which may probably be connected with Tyrrhenus, as well as in the union which the legend represents as subsisting between Turnus and the Etruscan king Mezentius. (Schwegler, Röm. Gesch. vol. i. pp. 330, 331.) But the whole subject is so mixed up with fable and poetical invention, that it is impossible to feel confidence in any such conjectures.



    http://real.mtak.hu/44351/1/068.2015.55.1-4.26.pdf
    Why don't you stick to the archaeology and leave ancient myths out of it, as well as the "some" and "others" from other sites who are doubtless racists just like the Sizzi you seem to like to follow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Why don't you stick to the archaeology and leave ancient myths out of it, as well as the "some" and "others" from other sites who are doubtless racists just like the Sizzi you seem to like to follow.
    Why do you follow Sizzi .............I cannot even read or understand what he writes ,only lately I knew about him, how long have you followed him? ............I only follow the spaniard, https://indo-european.eu/ ...........but, you can follow whoever you like be it sizzi, or apricity ( whatever they are called , more racists ) and the others you always mention.....I do not know why you keep mentioning apricity ..............do you also follow Eurogenes ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    What struck me at first is the presence of Mongoloid admixture in most samples (only R437, R475 and R851 lack it). This is mostly Siberian admixture, but there are also traces of East Asian and Southeast Asian. This alludes to a sort of ancient Altaic admixture. It peaks at 1.78% in the Protovillanovan individual, who is the oldest, and would be a relatively new arrival to Italy. Does that mean that the Proto-Italics possessed some kind of Siberian admixture, which spread throughout Italy and faded as they intermingled with locals? Nowadays it's so diluted as to be virtually undetectable among modern Italians (bar a few exceptions).
    Is there any possibility the admixture might come from mycenaean or cimmerian? I think the mycenaean clearly have altai culture, especially seima turbino.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Why do you follow Sizzi .............I cannot even read or understand what he writes ,only lately I knew about him, how long have you followed him? ............I only follow the spaniard, https://indo-european.eu/ ...........but, you can follow whoever you like be it sizzi, or apricity ( whatever they are called , more racists ) and the others you always mention.....I do not know why you keep mentioning apricity ..............do you also follow Eurogenes ?
    I've never followed him. I certainly never quoted him.

    The only mention I ever made of him is that I heard here on the site that the Dodecad "updated" Italian samples were published by him and that he had a reputation as a racist and perhaps we shouldn't use his samples.

    You're the one who quoted him; as you're the only Lega Nord voter here to my knowledge, the party always supported by North Italian racists. So, don't throw stones when you live in a glass house, buddy.

    Oh, you're also the self proclaimed expert on Italian issues who can't freaking read Italian and so can't even read archaeological papers by Italian specialists.

    Please....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've never followed him. I certainly never quoted him.

    The only mention I ever made of him is that I heard here on the site that the Dodecad "updated" Italian samples were published by him and that he had a reputation as a racist and perhaps we shouldn't use his samples.

    You're the one who quoted him; as you're the only Lega Nord voter here to my knowledge, the party always supported by North Italian racists. So, don't throw stones when you live in a glass house, buddy.

    Oh, you're also the self proclaimed expert on Italian issues who can't freaking read Italian and so can't even read archaeological papers by Italian specialists.

    Please....
    You need to cease your snide remarks.... as i said, i looked at this sizzi site you mentioned and there is no dodecad stuff on it, so you made another false claim....so what maciano placed on site has nothing to do with sizzi.....but you seemed to not like the results from maciano

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    We have to wait for the other paper that also tested Etruscans to get some more insight concerning the Etruscans. According to some leaks some Etruscan samples were R1b and one even I1. None of the Etruscan samples showed North African admixture like the Etruscan outlier in the Moots study.
    I would like to know what these leaks are, what paper are you talking about, and when is it coming out?

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    I followed what Maciamo did with the Where do Medieval Romans come from? for the Iron Age. R475 really has no good fits. The closest is Corsica with a Distance of 16. I ran Dodecad12B modern Populations and Jovialis Roman Sample and then used the Roman Sample (Iron) Age as Target. Most of the Iron Age romans are highly correlated with other Iron Age. R437 is close to Campania, Abruzzo, Sicily and Calabria. Maybe Maciamo and do the complete analsyis and post it here. I posted R475's top 25. Nothing under 5, and not even 10.

    Distance to: R475__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia
    13.49398147 France_Corsica
    13.55643021 R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    14.67900882 R80___Imperial_Era__Viale_Rossini_Necropolis
    15.06058432 R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    15.25677882 R118__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    15.31375525 R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    15.75102854 R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    15.93669351 R52___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    16.11976737 R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio
    16.39674358 R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    16.43507037 Italy_Marche
    16.75359066 Italy_Romagna
    16.82284756 R113__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    16.89979681 Italy_Liguria
    17.08167439 R437__Iron_Age_____Palestrina_Selicata
    17.09125303 Italy_Tuscany
    17.17303508 Italy_Lazio
    17.30316156 R45___Imperial_Era__Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
    17.37391723 R835__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche
    17.39525223 R35___Late_Antiquity_Celio
    17.55145863 R47___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis
    17.59474353 R122__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    17.67040778 Italy_Emilia
    17.67228904 R107__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    17.86512804 R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I would like to know what these leaks are, what paper are you talking about, and when is it coming out?
    Lets assume there were some R1 in the Estruscans. There are several potential explanations. Some R1 Men (Latin Speakers) married Estruscan women, etc, etc. So what exactly would this mean. The Kurgan-Steppe Hypothesis if you follow the routes shows an initial 3 prong split, 2 heading straight North and 1 movement of peoples that seem to mover further South then back up into what looks like Modern Hungary, then a group split and headed to what is modern NE Italy and entered Italy. Another group headed further North and then split into 2 other groups. So what peoples did those Pre-Latins run across on there way to Italy. If the Steppe migration from what I have read is modeled as 57% EHG and 45% CHG, is it possible that the further North you go with the Steppe migration, the more EHG you get, whereas to the South, you get a higher amount of CHG. Raveane et al (2019) paper does show a significant CHG component in Italy in most regions. The one Northern Sample the included in the paper (Figure 2) shows almost 70-75% EHG and very little CHG. So again, so what if R1B shows up in some Estruscan samples, that does not change the fact that all of Italy from North to South is characterized by significant Neolithic ancestry from Anatolia.

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    I fail to understand why anyone would imagine that an "Etruscan" person with from, say, 25% to 50% North African (R475), would be particularly close to any modern Italian samples whatsoever. Way too much mental garbage picked up from other sites, perhaps.

    Surely it's more fruitful to look at the "typical" Etruscan samples.

    Distance to: R473__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia
    5.78160877 North_Italian
    8.38279786 N_Italian
    8.87318996 Baleares
    11.14162017 Galicia
    12.35530251 Murcia
    12.82465984 Extremadura
    13.07071153 Spaniards
    13.12059831 TSI30
    13.36231642 Andalucia
    13.40997763 Castilla_Y_Leon
    13.81376849 Portuguese
    14.40643953 Cataluna
    14.67480494 Spanish
    15.05738689 Tuscan
    15.22069315 Cantabria
    15.23212067 Castilla_La_Mancha
    15.39107858 Valencia
    16.25906824 Aragon
    16.36995724 Canarias
    16.94150229 O_Italian
    18.67250920 C_Italian
    20.18145931 French
    20.79388853 French
    26.21925819 Greek
    26.97901777 Sicilian

    Distance to: R474__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia
    5.40006481 N_Italian
    8.09843195 North_Italian
    12.08194107 Baleares
    12.08642627 O_Italian
    12.12151393 TSI30
    12.76096000 Galicia
    13.43684859 Extremadura
    14.08415422 Portuguese
    14.15437388 Tuscan
    15.65916026 Murcia
    16.08680515 Castilla_Y_Leon
    16.41527642 Cataluna
    16.49286816 French
    16.51572887 Spaniards
    16.75588255 French
    16.81038964 C_Italian
    17.02408000 Canarias
    17.06224194 Andalucia
    17.42449138 Spanish
    18.93191221 Castilla_La_Mancha
    19.04844613 Cantabria
    19.33954239 Valencia
    20.46880309 Aragon
    20.79103894 Romanians
    21.47814936 Bulgarians



    That wasn't so hard. Not rocket science after all.

    Or how about the only upper class Latin tribal samples:



    Distance to: R1016_Iron_Age_____Castel_di_Decima
    5.15760603 North_Italian
    7.87889586 N_Italian
    8.24389471 Baleares
    11.32371847 Andalucia
    11.42629424 Galicia
    11.95574339 Murcia
    12.07648128 Extremadura
    12.25715301 TSI30
    12.59229129 Spaniards
    12.99406788 Castilla_Y_Leon
    13.45805707 Portuguese
    14.10107088 Tuscan
    14.26729827 Cataluna
    14.36500609 Spanish
    14.53080865 Valencia
    14.78261817 Castilla_La_Mancha
    14.93880183 Canarias
    14.97183356 Cantabria
    15.63196725 Aragon
    16.57335814 O_Italian
    17.87135417 C_Italian
    21.26400715 French
    21.89108266 French
    26.17368526 Greek
    26.26928054 Sicilian

    Or, to go back to R437:

    Distance to: R437__Iron_Age_____Palestrina_Selicata
    4.59913035 S_Italian_Sicilian
    4.83577295 Sicilian
    6.62618291 C_Italian
    10.16248001 Ashkenazi
    10.49031935 Tuscan
    10.64005169 Ashkenazy_Jews
    11.26179382 Greek
    11.40172794 Sephardic_Jews
    11.72748055 TSI30
    11.99572424 O_Italian
    12.92229856 Morocco_Jews
    19.05535620 N_Italian
    19.48090090 North_Italian
    22.31406731 Cypriots
    25.38137112 Turkish
    25.88563308 Bulgarian
    25.93160234 Bulgarians
    27.15757721 Romanians
    27.42830655 Lebanese
    28.16090197 Turks
    28.45628226 Baleares
    29.54386569 Canarias
    29.68206361 Syrians
    30.21483080 Murcia
    30.27705732 Galicia


    To reiterate, this sample is from a Latin Tribe.


    The fact that it picked up some Anatolia Bronze or Copper Age ancestry, perhaps filtering up from Southern Italy, doesn't make the sample less Latin or Roman. These ancient people were infinitely less "racist" than some moderns, it appears.

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    A little experiment. The fits are not exceptional, but not ridiculous either - particularly the Prenestini's.

    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Add in some Mycenaean, and the Etruscan fits improve perceptibly. Levant Bronze has very little impact.
    Boville slightly impacted. Prenestini and Ardea not affected.



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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Add in some Mycenaean, and the Etruscan fits improve perceptibly. Levant Bronze has very little impact.
    Boville slightly impacted. Prenestini and Ardea not affected.

    These models with ancient populations that are not ancestral components do not make much sense. Improving the fit does not imply that the model is accurate. The average GRC_Mycenaean is still very EEF (68.6%) and this greatly influences the result.







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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    These models with ancient populations that are not ancestral components do not make much sense. Improving the fit does not imply that the model is accurate. The average GRC_Mycenaean is still very EEF (68.6%) and this greatly influences the result.
    Indeed. All the references in my model are meant as approximate proxies.
    They are not meant to give us the ancestral mix, but to suggest an itinerary.
    Sorry, I took it for granted that people here had a fairly clear idea what the ancestral mix of those references was.
    Looks like I overestimated my readers' popgen culture.
    Last edited by hrvclv; 26-01-20 at 14:55.

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    maybe r850 ardea outlier
    represent the autosomal profile of the greeks of magna graecia
    some of those came from Aegean islands or coastal Anatolia
    and not from mainland greece
    later he might move north and mingle with the latin tribes

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Maciamo, I would not take too literally the results of an old calculator whose components are based on modern samples and has been created before the discovery of the various ancestral components (EEF, WHG, CHG, EHG...). Also the EEF ancient samples from Germany, Austria and Hungary get NW African, SW Asian and Caucasus on K12b, and these components also remain in Bronze Age samples, traces of these components are also found in the Bell Beaker samples from Southern Europe. These components on K12b are not always the sign of recent admixing.
    I agree that Dodecad K12b is not the perfect tool to analyse ancient populations. But it does a better job for Iron Age and Medieval ones than for Neolithic ones.

    Before seeing Angela's post, I hadn't noticed that the paper already mentioned that R437 and R850 could be modelled as a mixture between local people and an ancient Near Eastern population (Bronze Age Armenian or Iron Age Anatolian). This confirms that they may have come through Greece, and particularly Crete, as the Minoans had substantially Bronze Age Armenian-like Kura-Araxes admixture.

    As for the 13% Northwest African component in the R475 Etruscan from Civitavecchia, it is also corroborated by the comparison other ancient samples, namely the 12% of Iberomaurusian match, as Brick posted above. So Dodecad K12b isn't that bad.

    The presence of non completely native people between Latins and Etruscans is not so strange. The study itself assumes that they are partly of foreign origin. Also because the study chose to analyze some necropolises, particularly in the Etruscan case, which were located in commercial outposts. The necropolis of Civitavecchia "La Mattonara" is on the sea, it was a commercial outpost in particular with Sardinia. It is through the Phoenician colonies of Sardinia that trade between Etruscans and Phoenicians mainly takes place. Just as we know that the Latins had also their orientalizing phase thanks mainly to contacts with Campania and in Latium vetus there were foreigners. We still do not know if the oldest inscription found in Latium vetus (Osteria dell'Osa) is written in Greek or Latin.
    Absolutely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I agree that Dodecad K12b is not the perfect tool to analyse ancient populations. But it does a better job for Iron Age and Medieval ones than for Neolithic ones..........



    As for the 13% Northwest African component in the R475 Etruscan from Civitavecchia, it is also corroborated by the comparison other ancient samples, namely the 12% of Iberomaurusian match, as Brick posted above. So Dodecad K12b isn't that bad.

    Once again the Iron age Italics/Latins don't have any real North African admixture. That's just noise from post-mortem damage.The Etruscan female, on the contrary, does have real North African admixture, because she's scored non
    - negligible 13% North African mix. Any detected low-level admixture in ancient people is very likely noise and not real.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I would like to know what these leaks are, what paper are you talking about, and when is it coming out?


    I‘m not sure who worked on the second paper on ancient Italians but it‘s probably the Reichlab. However, there was a leaked PCA from last year with 5 Etruscans. These Etruscans appeared not to have any Phoenician or North African admixture. According to the leaked information if genuine, Etruscan hp R1b and I were detected. From what I recall the Etruscan DNA with the I1 was low coverage.


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