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Thread: New Coronavirus in China

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    The masterplan? The use of corona in powerplay?

    I guess not this is window dressing, watch me the Alpha Man.... this looks powerful, but is this powerful?

    Corona can be devestating especially in the US. 10% of the people have no health care assurance. Lot's of people can't afford to stay at home when it comes to a 'Italy scenario'. So the effects in the US could be worse than in Europe....

    And 'the good old days' of colonialism are gone Jovialis, the US have promoted good trade relationships.....this will harm it very much! Not only Europeans have to pay the bill ( direct US flights are for example 10% of the Royal Dutch Airways business) this is in the long run also bad for the Americans (or do I have to explain Adam Smith to you ;)
    You are going to keep this discussion civilized, because I am not going to tolerate your provocations.

    Where did I say this was my endorsement? This is merely speculation. Believe what you want, because you seem to be convinced of yourself. Just like every other ideologue.
    There can be no covenants between men and lions

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You are going to keep this discussion civilized, because I am not going to tolerate your provocations.

    Where did I say this was my endorsement? This is merely speculation. Believe what you want, because you seem to be convinced of yourself. Just like every other ideologue.
    you first come up with some conspiracy theory than with the idea of US masterplan world hegemony and when I express my heavily doubts than I am uncivilized....come on Jovialis!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    you first come up with some conspiracy theory than with the idea of US masterplan world hegemony and when I express my heavily doubts than I am uncivilized....come on Jovialis!
    I posted the video of Trump's address, take it as you will. I am allowed to comment my thoughts on it, just like everyone else. Perhaps you are too gullible to think that every state is not out for their own self-interests. Perhaps you were sleeping, but Trump wants to facilitate the end of the current system of globalism, or re-tool it, and a return to undisputed U.S. hegemony; what do you "Make America Great Again" was all about? Your sarcastic, sanctimonious, attitude is not constructive. You can express your "Heavy doubts" with out it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I posted the video of Trump's address, take it as you will. I am allowed to comment my thoughts on it, just like everyone else. Perhaps you are too gullible to think that every state is not out for their own self-interests. Perhaps you were sleeping, but Trump wants to facilitate the end of the current system globalism, or re-tool it, and a return to undisputed U.S. hegemony; what do you this "Make America Great Again" was all about? Your sarcastic, sanctimonious, high-handed attitude is not constructive.
    Absolute right! I am a great defender of agree to disagree. But I never intent or use personal attacks, so in that sense not uncivilized. I like to express my view you like you want to express yours.... and I intent to keep it on topic not ad hominem.

    I have fully the right to doubt if the import stop from Europe is in the long run good for the US too, I am not the only one here by the way.

    I consider, so my view, it of greater strength when the US used the Roosevelt doctrine, speak softly and carry a big stick. IMO Trump uses the contra doctrine, speak bluntly and carry a small stick ;) The power of the US is really not that big anymore like in the days of Roosevelt and a big mouth can’t hide that.

    Just my opinion feel free to discuss this....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Stick_ideology
    Last edited by Northener; 12-03-20 at 19:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    The power of the US is really not that big anymore


    https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...power-rankings
    https://www.businessinsider.com/worl...0-1#3-china-23

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post

    Makes complete sense. In Lombardia and adjacent areas you have the perfect temperature and humidity for this thing, and a population with very high percentages of the elderly.

    The problem is that even if it dies down in summer, it will probably return in the fall and winter. By then, also, many, many people will have died.

    As to the fact that CoVid 19 exploded "like a bomb" in Lombardia, again, the similarity to Washington State is noteworthy. In Italy Patient Zero has not definitively been identified. In Washington State the person they think might have been Patient Zero, a person from China, flew into the country very early in January, perhaps only a few days to a week after the virus was isolated in Wuhan. There's nothing anyone could have done at that point. To blame Washington State or the U.S. is pointless and stupid.

    The first recorded case in Europe was in Munich, where a woman flew in from China for meetings. The lucky thing for Germany at that point is that the woman fell ill on the plane going back to China, and either she or health authorities informed the health authorities in Munich. The people with whom she came into contact were "self quarantined". I'm sure it stopped a lot of infections. Did it stop all of the spread? I doubt it.

    The virus mutates every so often. The virus sequenced in Italy carries the exact same three mutations carried by the sequence in the prior cluster in Munich. Scientific American addresses the situation and concludes that it's impossible to tell if the initial spread was from the prior case in Munich to Lombardy, or if two (or more) people from Fujian traveled to both Munich and Lombardy.
    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020...-overinterpret


    I'm sure we'll never know. For what it's worth, I'm skeptical of the probability of the latter scenario because between the case in Munich and the cases in Lombardy Italy had closed travel from China and was doing temperature checks.

    I think it's also important to note, that contrary to the t-rolls here, not all cases in other countries are connected to Italy. That's just where they are looking. Epidemiolgists are always a step behind.

    "On 25 and 26 February, following the COVID-19 outbreak in Italy, multiple cases related to the Italian outbreak were detected in Baden-Württemberg. Other cases, which were not related to the Italian clusters, occurred in multiple regions including Baden-Württemberg, North Rhine-Westphalia and Rhineland-Palatinate. A specific cluster formed in Heinsberg was linked to the Carnival in Gangelt.[7] Currently, the largest number of COVID-19 cases in Germany are in the state of North Rhine-Westphalia.[8] There have been 18 recoveries.[9]

    Wiki: Coronavirus in Germany. I would also mention that Germany does not list deaths as due to Coronavirus when there are other comorbidities, from what I read online. That may be wrong, and even if it's correct, I assign no particular motive to it. However, it doesn't make much sense from a public health point of view if it's being done. It would give a false sense of security,

    Let's assume for the moment it happened that way. Would that justify me blaming Germany? Of course not. That would be both incendiary and stupid. At that stage in this pandemic, we didn't know people were most infectious BEFORE they presented symptoms. The only thing Germany could have done at that point would have been to seal Germany's borders and prevent anyone from leaving for any reason. Can anyone say that any country would have done that at that point? Hindsight is always 20/20. Our experience here in the New York area is informative. A lawyer in a suburban town came down with it. He had traveled abroad, but none of the places to which he traveled had reported cases at that time, so he wasn't quarantined. They have been contact tracing like mad. So far, he is "responsible" for 50 cases. He may be one of the "super-spreaders". Is that his fault? Is it the fault of the authorities for following the guidelines in place at that time, guidelines from the WHO and CDC at that time?

    This brings me to the case in Modugno. No one knows if that person was actually Patient Zero or where he got it. The fact is that he was released after a few days because he had not been to China or traveled at all, and his friend who had been to China was tested and was negative for it, and he definitely presented with BACTERIAL pneumonia, which adequately explained his symptoms. All the WHO guidelines in place at the time were followed. Similar things happened all over the U.S. and I'm sure other places around the world. Who is to "blame" for that?

    I realize that when people get very anxious some will tend to lash out in an attempt to manage that anxiety, and in doing that you sometimes see more of people's underlying prejudices than you wish you had seen. It's not helpful, however.

    Italy's ex-premier made a public appeal to other countries not to repeat Italy's "mistakes". From what I can see, those mistakes were in not shutting the country down immediately after the first few cases appeared. I don't see most countries doing that. There was a children's parade in France, soccer fans using their booked airfare and hotels in England even though the games were cancelled, the English fans going to the Cheltenham races, young people here booking cruises at cut rate prices and on and on.

    It's time to take responsibility for one's self and one's family, and if that means ignoring the platitudes from the WHO, CDC etc., then do it. The craziness with masks comes to mind. Yes, we want to make sure health care workers have the N95 masks. However, I still believe that part of China's relative "success" is that in their culture wearing a mask during any infectious period, even for colds, is commonplace. They sell them on the street from stands, like cigarettes or condoms. People should be using them, especially in high cluster areas.

    This Italian doctor presents one of the most informative and cogent clips I've seen. Anyone who still thinks this is overblown should watch it a couple of times.


    One more word in this very long thread about cargo being stopped. I have been arguing about this with my family for over a week. It was announced yesterday that the virus lives on paper and cardboard for up to 24 hours, and on plastic and steel for up to 72 hours.

    Imo, the situation in Korea is not analogous. Luckily for the country, a few severe cases showed up all belonging to the same religious sect, a sect whose members had been in Wuhan. These people socialized mainly with themselves, which made it a bit easier to find, test, and quarantine people. Also, again, if I'm not mistaken, they also have the "mask culture", as does Hong Kong.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Of course, and I am for example a great defender of the free spirit, that Russia and China don’t have.

    But I mentioned the relative position, the tendency, and than is the US kind of over the top.
    Last edited by Northener; 12-03-20 at 19:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2020/...er-dependency/

    This thing will die off when it gets warmer.
    From what I have read, Coronavirus is not temperature sensitive like the seasonal flu. In fact, it spread easily in places that remained warm in winter, like central and southern China, Iran, the Arabian peninsula and California - all places that have had temperature above 20°C (68°F) in the last few weeks. In Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrein and the UAE it's more like 27°C (80°F) in average, so hotter than northern Europe in summer.
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    Most renowned doctors in São Paulo: 45 thousand with coronavirus in Greater São Paulo in 4 months; 11 thousand in the ICU.

    An audio of Doctor Fábio Jatene, Director of the Thoracic Surgery Service of the Instituto do Coração (InCor) of Hospital das Clínicas, reports a meeting with some of the most renowned doctors in São Paulo who predict: in 4 months there will be 45 thousand people with coronavirus only in Greater São Paulo, alone and 11 thousand will need ICUs, which do not exist in that number. Doctors present a dramatic scenario for the spread of coronavirus in the country.
    David Uip (infectologist), Esper Cavalheiro (neurologist) and Marcelo Amato (intensive care specialist, specialized in ICUs) participated in the scientific meeting, among other doctors.


    According to Uip, the cases should explode in the country from now on and that the maximum focus of attention will be the elderly. The mortality rate among them reaches 18%, while among young people it is 0.2%. Scenario, according to doctors, is of great concern.

    They also predict that in four months the peak of the disease will pass.

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    Covid-19 is an opportunity for europe

    "The COVID-19 pandemic thus represents an opportunity for the EU to create a powerful crisis-management mechanism, which pools member states’ resources and channels them toward a coordinated fiscal policy. The idea of such an “insurance fund” is not new: several economists championed the idea after the last crisis, when discussion of governance reform was in full swing.
    The EU has tended to make the most progress in bad times. And, as the millions of people currently on lockdown in Italy can attest, the COVID-19 outbreak is a very bad time. Now is the moment for the EU to take swift coordinated action and capitalize on the momentum to build the institutions it needs to facilitate even more effective action next time."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Most renowned doctors in São Paulo: 45 thousand with coronavirus in Greater São Paulo in 4 months; 11 thousand in the ICU.

    An audio of Doctor Fábio Jatene, Director of the Thoracic Surgery Service of the Instituto do Coração (InCor) of Hospital das Clínicas, reports a meeting with some of the most renowned doctors in São Paulo who predict: in 4 months there will be 45 thousand people with coronavirus only in Greater São Paulo, alone and 11 thousand will need ICUs, which do not exist in that number. Doctors present a dramatic scenario for the spread of coronavirus in the country.
    David Uip (infectologist), Esper Cavalheiro (neurologist) and Marcelo Amato (intensive care specialist, specialized in ICUs) participated in the scientific meeting, among other doctors.


    According to Uip, the cases should explode in the country from now on and that the maximum focus of attention will be the elderly. The mortality rate among them reaches 18%, while among young people it is 0.2%. Scenario, according to doctors, is of great concern.

    They also predict that in four months the peak of the disease will pass.
    Not that I want to make fun of disgrace. It's not my intention. But I pass another example of the Brazilian way of making a joke. Soon after the leak of Dr. Jatene's audio, I received this meme. The guy who sent me this was my colleague at the university (my class at the university maintains a closed group on Whatsapp, where only us participate). And he is the guy, gold medal of my class (I was the silver medal). He is a PhD, post-PhD, he was president of a multinational of the steel industry and until a few months ago he was president of the Development Company of my State. In Brazil we can lost a friend, but we can’t lost a joke:

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    Strange, no 1

    Until today in mycountry Greece

    we have 90 deaths from Seasonal imfluenza, out of 217 confirmed cases,
    and 33 of them had done the anual vacin,
    in the 20 days of coronavirus we have 99 infected, and 1 dead.
    data are published the time that this post is written,


    Strange no2

    from my post #224 no matter today are all EU
    it seems that West of Alps the spreading of corova infected per population is much higher than East of Alps, with min 0.02 per thousand
    exception Portugal and Ireland,
    East of Alps, or better to countries which once were behind iron curtain, the spread seems much much lower, with max 0.005 /1000
    except Esthonia

    Finland and Greece which where the countries nearby ex behind curtain, outside of Alpine core and West Europe core, the percentage is almost equal, 0.011 0.009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's a stupid policy that is going to do more harm than good. The US economy is going to suffer as much as Europe's as imports and exports run in the hundreds of billions of $/€ per year in both directions.

    Even banning travel of people isn't going to stop or even noticeably slow down the diffusion of the virus in the US. I am ready to bet that there will be millions of cases in the USA (and Europe) in April whatever governments do.
    Indeed and we see already the short term consequences;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gqTi3wfuqM

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I guess instead of banning travel the idea is let it spread throughout the world unchecked until "herd immunity" is achieved?

    People should make up their minds. First it's quarantine everyone, or at least shut everything down early to "flatten the curve"; if you don't or didn't it's your fault if it spreads. Now it's hey, let's keep that travel and commerce going, who cares?

    Problem is that if it spreads unchecked, and even 10% of the infected need ICUs all within a few months all our health systems will crash, bar none. Good luck then if you have a heart attack or get cancer or need dialysis.

    I suppose some people think it will only happen to the other guy. Good luck with that.

    If the hospitals are going to "triage" health care, I bet someone will suggest that perhaps those who didn't believe it was worth worrying about should go to the bottom of the list.

    The market has been gyrating wildly for days. It's not all about Europe. It's about FEAR as they realize that if everything is locked down the way it is in Italy their stocks may be worth a fraction of their prior value. That includes me, by the way. Not all my money is in metals and government securities.

    Among the many in the list of what "they" should have done, imo "they" should have closed trading days ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I guess instead of banning travel the idea is let it spread throughout the world unchecked until "herd immunity" is achieved?

    People should make up their minds. First it's quarantine everyone, or at least shut everything down early to "flatten the curve"; if you don't or didn't it's your fault if it spreads. Now it's hey, let's keep that travel and commerce going, who cares?

    Problem is that if it spreads unchecked, and even 10% of the infected need ICUs all within a few months all our health systems will crash, bar none. Good luck then if you have a heart attack or get cancer or need dialysis.

    I suppose some people think it will only happen to the other guy. Good luck with that.

    If the hospitals are going to "triage" health care, I bet someone will suggest that perhaps those who didn't believe it was worth worrying about should go to the bottom of the list.

    The market has been gyrating wildly for days. It's not all about Europe. It's about FEAR as they realize that if everything is locked down the way it is in Italy their stocks may be worth a fraction of their prior value. That includes me, by the way. Not all my money is in metals and government securities.

    Among the many in the list of what "they" should have done, imo "they" should have closed trading days ago.
    The point is that there are many doubts if the effect of this travel ban is substantial. Different medical experts say: this is window dressing, 'symbol' politics.

    Fact is that the virus is already spreading in the US, so as a prevention measure it's way too late....

    So admitted speculative but this measure seems to be one in the category 'to blame the evil outside world', at the same time the spread in the US (like in Europe) goes further, but what are the effective 'intern' measures?

    Of course the situation is critical but if this justifies such a travel ban.....this deepfreezes the economy, not only in the US but in Europe too.
    Last edited by Northener; 12-03-20 at 23:37.

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    many Italians already in Australia on a 1 year visit have been automatically extended to 2 years ...........so my cousin has 18 months left in Perth ...............most are under 35 yo

    her mum in Veneto said....you can only go directly to the chemist or groceries now and if you walk around you get questioned and fined
    Last edited by torzio; 13-03-20 at 01:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I guess instead of banning travel the idea is let it spread throughout the world unchecked until "herd immunity" is achieved?

    People should make up their minds. First it's quarantine everyone, or at least shut everything down early to "flatten the curve"; if you don't or didn't it's your fault if it spreads. Now it's hey, let's keep that travel and commerce going, who cares?

    Problem is that if it spreads unchecked, and even 10% of the infected need ICUs all within a few months all our health systems will crash, bar none. Good luck then if you have a heart attack or get cancer or need dialysis.

    I suppose some people think it will only happen to the other guy. Good luck with that.

    If the hospitals are going to "triage" health care, I bet someone will suggest that perhaps those who didn't believe it was worth worrying about should go to the bottom of the list.

    The market has been gyrating wildly for days. It's not all about Europe. It's about FEAR as they realize that if everything is locked down the way it is in Italy their stocks may be worth a fraction of their prior value. That includes me, by the way. Not all my money is in metals and government securities.

    Among the many in the list of what "they" should have done, imo "they" should have closed trading days ago.
    To give you an impression how 'the rest of the world' is conceiving this, this article from the German weekly newspaper Die Zeit, one of the best in depth newspapers of Europe. Very prudent.

    This is their headline today:

    The paranoid president

    Donald Trump doesn't understand the corona pandemic. Instead: the Europeans as scapegoats. To save lives, the US president would have to do the opposite in everything.
    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/...trump-pandemie

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    A nurse from Madrid has sent me a voice message saying that things are more serious than what is being said, that the politicians
    Yes it is to be alarmed.

    have done it and are doing fatal. There are two young boys and girls who know they are going to die. Children are the ones that present milder symptoms but are great contagious, avoid taking them with grandparents, who are the most vulnerable group. And he advises me to leave home for the essentials, avoid meetings, congregations, bars, restaurants, e.t.c.


    What the governments or politicians do not say is said by a nurse.



    Minister Celaá with "purple" gloves in the demonstration of the women who had no nose to postpone.



    Pablo Iglesias's wife and that he has put to the finger in a ministry, because that plover's head is already infested.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    To give you an impression how 'the rest of the world' is conceiving this, this article from the German weekly newspaper Die Zeit, one of the best in depth newspapers of Europe. Very prudent.

    This is their headline today:



    https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/...trump-pandemie
    Let me be clear: I don't give a darn how the rest of the world perceives the U.S., or even how they perceive Trump. Did you really expect that I would? Not all Americans have this attitude, but at least 50% and more certainly do, and I'm one of them.

    It may make me angry, as it does, as did the stupid comments about Italy, but I would never "internalize" any of it in either situation. I haven't expected intelligent, rational political opinions from Europeans since so many of them all got on the unilateral disarmament bandwagon.

    I'd also say that's pretty rich coming from Germany, given how some of their ministers have been touting how efficient they've been at contact tracing and quarantining people.

    Just out of curiosity, should travel from China have been banned? Were the people of Hong Kong wrong to close the bridges to China? Isn't the banning of internal travel, indeed, the banning of movement on the streets part of the reason that China was able to lower the infection and death rate?

    Closing access off from highly infected areas is either a good idea or it's not. If it's a good idea it should be done. Why should Europe, including Italy, get a pass?

    Do I think that closing access from Europe means it won't continue to spread in the U.S.? Of course not, but why in hell would anyone INCREASE the problem???

    Sorry; it makes no sense to me.

    As for anyone thinking that Trump wanted to do it, well, I'd ask if that person is using recreational drugs. This is ruining his economy and stock market, an economy and stock market which put Europe's and everyone else's completely in the shade. Really, Trump derangement syndrome makes some of these leaders look like fools.

    Before you respond, I didn't vote for him, I intensely dislike him as a person, and I don't think he was doing a great job on the coronavirus. Yesterday was better. He's a quick learner. Hopefully, he'll get it even more together. Who with any decency wouldn't want him to get this under control? This is people's lives, and also their livelihoods and the savings of a lifetime. I, for one, and most people, I think, don't take it lightly that under the best case scenario we might lose really large percentages of people over 60, or people who have any kind of health issues. Those are people we love, to whom we're deeply attached, and who would be sorely missed. If some people don't feel that way about the older and less healthy people in their lives, then I feel deeply sorry for them. They're missing so much.

    I'm also amazed by the arrogance of thinking I've seen in some people on the internet that because one is on the "right" side of 60, this isn't important. There are 20 and 30 year olds in ICU with this. I wonder if people with this attitude would change their minds if they wind up in an ICU? And no, this isn't just like the flu.

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    Why am I not surprised by how China is framing this...

    "China steps up in assisting Italy after the country reportedly didn't get help from the EU to battle COVID-19."
    https://newsus.cgtn.com/news/2020-03...Qnm/index.html

    Of course, for China it's great public relations. Not that I care. I was in tears most of yesterday. My poor Italy. I'm grateful for help from wherever it comes. Let China have its public relations coup.

    I also don't doubt that Italy was told it was on its own. So much for EU solidarity and concerted and common effort against this.

    Hopefully this will change the mind of any Italians who still wanted to be part of the European union.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Why am I not surprised by how China is framing this...

    "China steps up in assisting Italy after the country reportedly didn't get help from the EU to battle COVID-19."
    https://newsus.cgtn.com/news/2020-03...Qnm/index.html

    Of course, for China it's great public relations. Not that I care. I was in tears most of yesterday. My poor Italy. I'm grateful for help from wherever it comes. Let China have its public relations coup.

    I also don't doubt that Italy was told it was on its own. So much for EU solidarity and concerted and common effort against this.

    Hopefully this will change the mind of any Italians who still wanted to be part of the European union.
    The U.S. is supposed to not ban people from Europe coming to the U.S., but if Italy hadn't unilaterally closed its borders I'm absolutely certain people from Italy trying to get out would have been met by armed troops.

    Seems a bit like don't do what I do, do what I say.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Let me be clear: I don't give a darn how the rest of the world perceives the U.S., or even how they perceive Trump. Did you really expect that I would? Not all Americans have this attitude, but at least 50% and more certainly do, and I'm one of them.

    It may make me angry, as it does, as did the stupid comments about Italy, but I would never "internalize" any of it in either situation. I haven't expected intelligent, rational political opinions from Europeans since so many of them all got on the unilateral disarmament bandwagon.

    I'd also say that's pretty rich coming from Germany, given how some of their ministers have been touting how efficient they've been at contact tracing and quarantining people.

    Just out of curiosity, should travel from China have been banned? Were the people of Hong Kong wrong to close the bridges to China? Isn't the banning of internal travel, indeed, the banning of movement on the streets part of the reason that China was able to lower the infection and death rate?

    Closing access off from highly infected areas is either a good idea or it's not. If it's a good idea it should be done. Why should Europe, including Italy, get a pass?

    Do I think that closing access from Europe means it won't continue to spread in the U.S.? Of course not, but why in hell would anyone INCREASE the problem???

    Sorry; it makes no sense to me.

    As for anyone thinking that Trump wanted to do it, well, I'd ask if that person is using recreational drugs. This is ruining his economy and stock market, an economy and stock market which put Europe's and everyone else's completely in the shade. Really, Trump derangement syndrome makes some of these leaders look like fools.

    Before you respond, I didn't vote for him, I intensely dislike him as a person, and I don't think he was doing a great job on the coronavirus. Yesterday was better. He's a quick learner. Hopefully, he'll get it even more together. Who with any decency wouldn't want him to get this under control? This is people's lives, and also their livelihoods and the savings of a lifetime. I, for one, and most people, I think, don't take it lightly that under the best case scenario we might lose really large percentages of people over 60, or people who have any kind of health issues. Those are people we love, to whom we're deeply attached, and who would be sorely missed. If some people don't feel that way about the older and less healthy people in their lives, then I feel deeply sorry for them. They're missing so much.

    I'm also amazed by the arrogance of thinking I've seen in some people on the internet that because one is on the "right" side of 60, this isn't important. There are 20 and 30 year olds in ICU with this. I wonder if people with this attitude would change their minds if they wind up in an ICU? And no, this isn't just like the flu.
    The corona virus shows we live, more than even 20 or 30 years ago in a global village. A virus in Wuhan is few weeks later virulent on Iceland. So what the Italians, the Chinese and also the US do effects al others. Certainly the US represent a big part of the global village. So in such a situation pointing at eachother as Trump does, he even speaks about a ‘foreign virus’ is in some sense pointless.....

    For the ban as such experts in viruses say ok this would prevent a little bit, but at what costs? And most of all this measure is not the ‘game changer’.

    Where a nation state still can make the difference is measures for their territory. There we see no plan in the US....so this will probably cost lives. And in my impression the US is internal very vulnerable, 10% has no health assurance and lots of US people get not paid if they don’t work. These are with a virulent virus at least complicating factors.

    ok I could say I don’t care it’s on the other side of the Ocean, but every life is one, and what happens in the US will in the end effect Europe, will effect my country, will effect me....
    Last edited by Northener; 13-03-20 at 10:22.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The U.S. is supposed to not ban people from Europe coming to the U.S., but if Italy hadn't unilaterally closed its borders I'm absolutely certain people from Italy trying to get out would have been met by armed troops.

    Seems a bit like don't do what I do, do what I say.
    Italy closed it's borders, and then send all foreigners who were inside Italy home without any controll.
    It spread the Corona inside Europe even more.
    Mind you, they made the same mistake here in Brussels.
    2 planes from Milan arrived in Brussels that day and none of the passengers were checked - unlike passengers coming from China when Corona had started there.

    Your claim about armed troops is grotesk.

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    Italian data as of yesterday:

    I think Italy is being affected by some mutated more dangerous strain of the virus, because I don't see any other explanation why over 50% of all infected have to be hospitalized, almost 1/10 in intensive care and mortality rate almost 7% (in some other countries only 10% require hospitalization - with ca. 7000 in hospitals, there should be ca. 70,000 cases in total in Italy, not 13,000):

    =====

    Total cases: 15,113

    Active cases: 12,839
    Of which in hospitals: 6,650
    Of which in intensive care: 1,153

    =====

    Closed cases:

    Recovered: 1,258
    Deaths: 1,016
    Mortality: 6,72%

    =====

    I've read that the virus has already mutated, there are at least a few strains including "type S" (original) and "type L" (more contagious and causing stronger symptoms) and probably a few more unnamed so far (I suspect some really bad strain must be common in Italy considering their situation).

    If you get immunity to one strain it doesn't guarantee immunity to another strain. In China there were few cases of people who recovered from "S" getting sick with "L" once again (these two types were identified by Chinese geneticists, so this "L" mutation took place already back in China).

    See the video:


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    coronavirus




    to all those who hide the truth,
    they know who are they,
    we know who are they,

    a hurray to Italy and Iran, for bravery,
    for giving true data,
    no matter how painfull it is.

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