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Thread: New Coronavirus in China

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    1 members found this post helpful.


    @Carlos

    it was about 200 000 chinese tourist at 1019, comparing the 31 500 000 tourists in Greece,
    yet from the way of move, act etc, you can recogn them from far,
    it was about 500 000 to come this year, via contracts,
    if you know how they act, you would tell strange kind of tourism,
    organised and guided every minute,
    the only who have profit are the BIG MALLS,
    they leave them one day to such markets, and next day there is not a single shoe primary, and cotton underwear.
    offcourseafter hard pazari (bargain)
    But they enjoy it, and that counts,
    they do many activities mostly, but hard bargain for the group,
    They marry 5-10 couples to same ceremony,
    But they do not cause any trouble,
    Their only problem, is that they act like a flock,
    you can not pass through them, or by pass them etc,
    you have to wait even 100 people to stand and each take his photo,
    offcourse that is not their bad kind of tourism, rather a semi-good quiet tourism, no problem people,
    the bad kind usually comes after 7-8 years of first coming,

    Truth is that they are not RELAX tourists, but rather fast travelers and observers,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Our Government response is not what I expected,

    It seems they're heading blindly towards a Progressive trap.

    It's not our way.
    POTUS just stabbed Capitalism in the back!

    ... as of now I live in a Socialist Country.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/27/hous...-to-trump.html

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    I don't blame Germany for the virus coming into Lombardia, if that's indeed how some of it happened, and as the epidemiology certainly indicates it could have happened. Whatever happened it wasn't done deliberately. There was also information coming from the WHO and other authorities which certainly led to a lot of mis-steps by everyone.

    The only person on this site who had the outright ignorance, irresponsibility, and complete lack of feeling for his fellow Europeans to blame another country for any of this was Bicicleur in claiming Italy had blood on its hands and was responsible for the destabilization of Europe. Talking about blood on people's hands, what are you going to do to the Austrian ski resorts which were kept open long after there were people dropping like flies of a disease everyone by then knew was highly contagious? Or, are different standards are applied to Northern Europeans?

    What China did at the time the virus first surfaced wasn't a mis-step or an error in judgment or a "mistake". It engaged in deliberate, premeditated activity to destroy evidence of it and punished doctors trying to raise awareness. The first cases surfaced in late November/early December. They didn't announce it until the second week of January and were still saying it wasn't going from human to human when the numbers clearly indicated it did.

    I guess they don't have blood on their hands, right, Bicicleur?

    If some people can't tell the difference between negligence and premeditated, wilful acts which in individuals would constitute a crime, then I don't know what to tell you.

    As for the EU, of which Germany is the dominant player, I have been saying for as long as I've been on this Board and for years before that that it was a terrible deal for Southern European countries. All they've ever been wanted for is to serve as markets. The inability of these countries to float their currency has stagnated their economies for years and harmed their manufacturing sectors.

    The last straw came during the refugee crisis. European Unity is a JOKE! It was every country for itself; no unified plan, no aid for the countries on the front line.

    Now we have the Coronavirus. I, and Italy, are supposed to be grateful for a few measly ventilators after weeks of carnage? They're just catching on that the Chinese have made them look bad. Who came in with tons of supplies, doctors etc? Was it Italy's EU brothers? No, it wasn't. It was the Chinese, for their own reasons, of course, but still they came.

    What's the result? Support for the EU has plummeted in Italy. Good; it was about time. They bought all the b.s. propaganda for too long.

    My only regret is that out of gratitude Italy and other countries in Southern Europe and the Balkans may turn to China for rebuilding, and all you have to do is look at what has gone on in Africa to know that agreements with China never turn out to the benefit of the non-Chinese countries.

    I wouldn't have written this, but unfortunately I can't block the posts of moderators. I'm just going to not let my eye fall on his posts anymore.

    I'll tell you another thing, though: I'm not leaving like LeBroc. I tried to keep the peace between them for months. It turns out he was right and I was wrong.

    However, if I see b.s. I'll still call it.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    POTUS just stabbed Capitalism in the back!

    ... as of now I live in a Socialist Country.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/27/hous...-to-trump.html

    WOW
    USA is Back to Kaynes? Yeah

    Back to European models !!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    WOW
    USA is Back to Kaynes? Yeah

    Back to European models !!!!!!!!
    The World will not benefit from it, to the contrary.

    the amount of money that is going to be distributed is astronomical, foreign aid will surely be reduced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't blame Germany for the virus coming into Lombardia, if that's indeed how some of it happened, and as the epidemiology certainly indicates it could have happened.
    i guess it doesn't really matter now, but it seems that the epidemiology does not clearly indicate that it came from germany. the two strains are similar but there are too many mutations between them to say that one originated from the other. the theory that both strains came from wuhan is also likely.
    here are the words of a german virologist from twitter

    Christian Drosten @c_drosten


    "Based on the data, I find it more likely that Munich and Italy have a common source in Wuhan. Munich came from an unsampled source diversity when we first saw it. The Italian clade would have come from that diversity, but has too many additional mutations for direct descent."

    that was on march 4th.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't blame Germany for the virus coming into Lombardia, if that's indeed how some of it happened, and as the epidemiology certainly indicates it could have happened. Whatever happened it wasn't done deliberately. There was also information coming from the WHO and other authorities which certainly led to a lot of mis-steps by everyone.

    The only person on this site who had the outright ignorance, irresponsibility, and complete lack of feeling for his fellow Europeans to blame another country for any of this was Bicicleur in claiming Italy had blood on its hands and was responsible for the destabilization of Europe. Talking about blood on people's hands, what are you going to do to the Austrian ski resorts which were kept open long after there were people dropping like flies of a disease everyone by then knew was highly contagious? Or, are different standards are applied to Northern Europeans?

    What China did at the time the virus first surfaced wasn't a mis-step or an error in judgment or a "mistake". It engaged in deliberate, premeditated activity to destroy evidence of it and punished doctors trying to raise awareness. The first cases surfaced in late November/early December. They didn't announce it until the second week of January and were still saying it wasn't going from human to human when the numbers clearly indicated it did.

    I guess they don't have blood on their hands, right, Bicicleur?

    If some people can't tell the difference between negligence and premeditated, wilful acts which in individuals would constitute a crime, then I don't know what to tell you.

    As for the EU, of which Germany is the dominant player, I have been saying for as long as I've been on this Board and for years before that that it was a terrible deal for Southern European countries. All they've ever been wanted for is to serve as markets. The inability of these countries to float their currency has stagnated their economies for years and harmed their manufacturing sectors.

    The last straw came during the refugee crisis. European Unity is a JOKE! It was every country for itself; no unified plan, no aid for the countries on the front line.

    Now we have the Coronavirus. I, and Italy, are supposed to be grateful for a few measly ventilators after weeks of carnage? They're just catching on that the Chinese have made them look bad. Who came in with tons of supplies, doctors etc? Was it Italy's EU brothers? No, it wasn't. It was the Chinese, for their own reasons, of course, but still they came.

    What's the result? Support for the EU has plummeted in Italy. Good; it was about time. They bought all the b.s. propaganda for too long.

    My only regret is that out of gratitude Italy and other countries in Southern Europe and the Balkans may turn to China for rebuilding, and all you have to do is look at what has gone on in Africa to know that agreements with China never turn out to the benefit of the non-Chinese countries.

    I wouldn't have written this, but unfortunately I can't block the posts of moderators. I'm just going to not let my eye fall on his posts anymore.

    I'll tell you another thing, though: I'm not leaving like LeBroc. I tried to keep the peace between them for months. It turns out he was right and I was wrong.

    However, if I see b.s. I'll still call it.
    come on, don't do it,
    many love you here,
    where the hell you find company like us the time of coronavirus,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    The World will not benefit from it, to the contrary.

    the amount of money that is going to be distributed is astronomical, foreign aid will surely be reduced.
    the USA raising curve as seen now, the last 5 days, is very vertical
    does not look like an arithmetical function a*x
    neither as a geometrical one xa
    but rather an exponential one ax

    maybe tomorow you turn thankfull for that, saving the life of a person you love.
    or thankfull, for your country kept her identity, and did not become an empty place waiting for 'barbarians' to come.
    etc etc,

    But I agree 3 x1012 $ is little bit ...... political anounce before elections ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    the USA raising curve as seen now, the last 5 days, is very vertical
    does not look like an arithmetical function a*x
    neither as a geometrical one xa
    but rather an exponential one ax

    maybe tomorow you turn thankfull for that, saving the life of a person you love.
    or thankfull, for your country kept her identity, and did not become an empty place waiting for 'barbarians' to come.
    etc etc,
    But I agree 3 x1012 $ is little bit ...... political anounce before elections ?
    It seems the Right and Left got Married :)

    There is some political motivation ...

    We're all together to save lives, every life lost is a tragedy, imho that’s where emergency funds should be allocated,

    but they also want to save the economy by giving cash to the young and the healthy, companies, ... because money are not targeted correctly, I disagree with that.

    The young and healthy should be able to fend for themselves.

    they’re sending money to pretty much everybody. and I mean: Everybody!

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    It seems the Right and Left got Married :)

    There is some political motivation ...

    We're all together to save lives, every life lost is a tragedy, imho that’s where emergency funds should be allocated,

    but they also want to save the economy by giving cash to the young and the healthy, companies, ... because money are not targeted correctly, I disagree with that.

    The young and healthy should be able to fend for themselves.

    they’re sending money to pretty much everybody. and I mean: Everybody!
    that discussion will take days,
    from Dracon to Solon, From early patrician Rome to the late Imperial Codexes, from John Locke and David Hume to .... from Adam Smith to Marx etc etc,


    But I always wonder why at the wolf pack leader is always the female mother,
    and why even her 4 years old children gather around her, twice the size, when is time for big hunt to survive winter,
    If mother does not exist, no pack,
    if no pack, then no values, if no values, money is just papper,
    imagine the mother of the pack wounded and bleading,
    what will happens to values? the $$$$ ????? you and I and he etc saved.
    that is why I despite Friedman's school, cause the pack protect values/money, that sometimes most values belong to a foreigner to the pack, to another pack
    so we can not have a pack if no values <=> but also no values if pack is dead.
    and yes each wolf is of his own, free, 10 months, but gather to the pack at January-February to survive.

    She guides the pack to feed the newborn, and not the XYZ rich guy with billions $ at Cayman islands, which calls communists the pack.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post

    that discussion will take days,
    from Dracon to Solon, From early patrician Rome to the late Imperial Codexes, from John Locke and David Hume to .... from Adam Smith to Marx etc etc,

    But I always wonder why at the wolf pack leader is always the female mother,
    and why even her 4 years old children gather around her, twice the size, when is time for big hunt to survive winter,

    If mother does not exist, no pack,
    if no pack, then no values, if no values, money is just papper,
    imagine the mother of the pack wounded and bleading,
    what will happens to values? the $$$$ ????? you and I and he etc saved.
    that is why I despite Friedman's school, cause the pack protect values/money, that sometimes most values belong to a foreigner to the pack, to another pack
    so we can not have a pack if no values <=> but also no values if pack is dead.
    and yes each wolf is of his own, free, 10 months, but gather to the pack at January-February to survive.

    She guides the pack to feed the newborn, and not the XYZ rich guy with billions $ at Cayman islands, which calls communists the pack.

    The political compass broke today.

    ... because the She Wolf feeds them for free, and the kids get lazy and comfortable, but eventually She Wolf will run out of milk, and that’s when the ugliest history is written :)

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Portugal defends Spain and rises up against Europe without solidarity

    https://elcorreoweb.es/internacional...ante-DX6527216

    I think when this happens we could follow in the footsteps of the U.K. maybe some political party will ask for a referendum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    I wouldn't have written this, but unfortunately I can't block the posts of moderators. I'm just going to not let my eye fall on his posts anymore.
    I realy hope you don't block anyone who disagrees or says something you don't like.

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    the stistics upon yesterday late night upload

    source
    https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashb...23467b48e9ecf6


    COUNTRY Population /1000 Confirmed infected deaths upon confirmed Confirmed infected /1000 people deaths /confirmed infected














    San Marino 33 144 20 4,3636 0,1389


    Andora 76 267 3 3,5132 0,0112
    Europe with Swiss's Statistics (No Russia)
    Feroe isls 52 144 0 2,7692 0,0000
    Luxenbourg 614 1605 15 2,6140 0,0093


    Iceland 364 890 2 2,4451 0,0022
    Infected Deaths
    Swiss 8570 12928 231 1,5085 0,0179
    1031753,96 18435,58
    Liechtenstein 39 56 0 1,4359 0,0000


    Italy 60318 86498 9134 1,4340 0,1056


    Spain 46733 65719 5138 1,4063 0,0782


    Austria 8903 7712 58 0,8662 0,0075
    Europe with Italy's Statistics (No Russia)
    Norway 5368 3772 19 0,7027 0,0050
    Deutch 83149 53340 595 0,6415 0,0112


    Belgium 11516 7284 289 0,6325 0,0397
    Infected Deaths
    Lithuania 2794 1389 16 0,4971 0,0115
    980809,71 103571,36
    Netherlands 17425 8603 546 0,4937 0,0635


    France 67022 32964 1995 0,4918 0,0605


    Esthonia 1328 575 1 0,4330 0,0017


    Porugal 10277 4268 76 0,4153 0,0178


    Denmark 5823 2046 52 0,3514 0,0254
    USA with Swiss's statistics
    Ireland 6573 2121 22 0,3227 0,0104
    USA 328240 104837 1711 0,3194 0,0163


    Slovenia 2100 632 9 0,3010 0,0142
    Infected Deaths
    sweden 10303 3069 105 0,2979 0,0342
    495155,98 5865,06
    UK 67547 14543 759 0,2153 0,0522


    Czech 10650 2279 9 0,2140 0,0039


    Finland 5521 1163 7 0,2107 0,0060


    Croatia 4076 635 4 0,1558 0,0063
    USA with Italy's statistics
    Lettonia 1920 280 0 0,1458 0,0000
    Montenegro 631 82 1 0,1300 0,0122


    Severna Mac 2077 219 3 0,1054 0,0137
    Infected Deaths
    Greece 10768 966 28 0,0897 0,0290
    461592,55 34661,43
    Serbia 6964 528 1 0,0758 0,0019


    Moldova 2682 199 2 0,0742 0,0101


    Turkey 82004 5698 92 0,0695 0,0161


    Bosnia 3511 237 4 0,0675 0,0169
    China with Swiss's statistics
    Romania 19402 1292 26 0,0666 0,0201
    Albania 2877 186 8 0,0647 0,0430


    mainland China 1427648 81948 3299 0,0574 0,0403
    Infected Deaths
    Slovakia 5450 269 0 0,0494 0,0000
    2153632,83 25509,49
    Kossovo 1810 88 1 0,0486 0,0114


    Bulgaria 7000 313 4 0,0447 0,0128


    Poland 38386 1389 16 0,0362 0,0115


    Hungary 9773 343 11 0,0351 0,0321
    China with Italy's statistics
    Belarus 9492 94 0 0,0099 0,0000
    Ukraine 42031 310 5 0,0074 0,0161


    Russia 146745 1036 4 0,0071 0,0039
    Infected Deaths







    2047294,29 150756,51
    Average Europe -Russia 683952 327139 19307 0,4783 0,0590





    Europe (no red zone, no 3 last ones) 631290 323685 19262 0,5127 0,0595
    Last edited by Yetos; 28-03-20 at 13:20.

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    Dr. Anthony Fauci, chief medical advisor to the Trump administration’s coronavirus task force, said Thursday that Italy has been impacted particularly badly by the coronavirus pandemic because the country hosted a high number of Chinese tourists in recent months.
    “When you look at the different patterns of what happened in different countries, China versus South Korea versus what we’re seeing in northern Italy, it really gives you some interesting insight into certain things, not only in the explosive nature in certain places versus others, but as you get to your peak, how do you know when you’re turning the corner,” Fauci said on CNN.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/fauci-ita...175935334.html

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    in hindsight, we've all been as negligent as China
    I won’t Sanitize China's fault.

    only China is negligent ‘cause it’s the root Genesis of the Pandemic,
    and it spreads death by not restricting travel overseas when it was well aware of the virus power,

    In the beginning, China first hid and then was less than transparent, ...

    everybody else tried to grasp the gravity of the situation and reacted accordingly to the limited data available, resources, ...

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    JUST IN: 51 Italian doctors who tested positive for #coronavirus have died - Italian Association of Doctors





    Spencer Wells
    Giorgio Armani is devoting all of his factories to making disposable gowns for healthcare workers. “From the stretcher bearer to the nurse, from general practitioners to all the specialists in the sector, I am personally close to you.”

    Bravo, maestro...

    Make masks, too, Giorgio.





    Not helpful...
    #France is not including #COVID19 deaths in the official counts if they occurred at nursing homes (#EHPAD) or at home. Only those who die in the hospitals are counted.

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    fwiw
    genealogy and geography of the covid virus



    most of the infections in the US seem to have come directly from China, not from Europe

    the spread outside China seems to have happened after january 10th, when the whole world was already alerted

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    @Carlos

    it was about 200 000 chinese tourist at 1019, comparing the 31 500 000 tourists in Greece,
    yet from the way of move, act etc, you can recogn them from far,
    it was about 500 000 to come this year, via contracts,
    if you know how they act, you would tell strange kind of tourism,
    organised and guided every minute,
    the only who have profit are the BIG MALLS,
    they leave them one day to such markets, and next day there is not a single shoe primary, and cotton underwear.
    offcourseafter hard pazari (bargain)
    But they enjoy it, and that counts,
    they do many activities mostly, but hard bargain for the group,
    They marry 5-10 couples to same ceremony,
    But they do not cause any trouble,
    Their only problem, is that they act like a flock,
    you can not pass through them, or by pass them etc,
    you have to wait even 100 people to stand and each take his photo,
    offcourse that is not their bad kind of tourism, rather a semi-good quiet tourism, no problem people,
    the bad kind usually comes after 7-8 years of first coming,

    Truth is that they are not RELAX tourists, but rather fast travelers and observers,
    I don't really live in a tourist town, the strangest people I see are the immigrants there.


    When I move to Barcelona or Seville you do realize; Although I did not notice them or look at them it is annoying and uncomfortable, the Chinese groups do not bother me, but there are others who go around the city without shirts, I do not know where they think they are, you also see them eating in places where the Spanish we would not go, that they go looking for another destination, we do not want them here.

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    WHY is the WHO still telling people masks don't help??? Washing your hands may give you a false sense of security if you're not doing it properly, but no one would tell people not to wash their hands.

    The surgical ones, even homemade ones, may not be perfect, but it's better than nothing.

    The WHO has been wrong about virtually everything from the very start.


    The narrative is beginning to shift.

    "researchers [...] found that washing hands more than 10 times daily was 55 percent effective in stopping virus transmission, while wearing a mask was actually more effective — at about 68 percent."
    '

    After months of denial, German medical officials now call on people to wear makeshift masks in public to reduce contagion.

    University of California San Francisco is mandating mask use.

    NEW: CDC guidance on masks expected to change in next 10 days. Americans will be advised to wear masks in everyday life. Current recommendation is for high-risk groups only. (Sure, once the supply can meet the demand.)

    Turns out those of us on "team mask" from day 1 were correct.

    How many lives could have been spared had they been honest from the start?

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    Based on the IC cases in the Netherlands 80% of the IC patients are obese.

    https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/4015...ft-overgewicht

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    CkqFFuO.jpg


    28.03.2020.

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    fwiw

    this year, 9000 new producers of masks in China :

    'producing masks is like printing money'

    https://trends.knack.be/economie/bed...box=1585393565

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    WHY is the WHO still telling people masks don't help??? Washing your hands may give you a false sense of security if you're not doing it properly, but no one would tell people not to wash their hands.

    The surgical ones, even homemade ones, may not be perfect, but it's better than nothing.

    The WHO has been wrong about virtually everything from the very start.


    The narrative is beginning to shift.

    "researchers [...] found that washing hands more than 10 times daily was 55 percent effective in stopping virus transmission, while wearing a mask was actually more effective — at about 68 percent."
    '

    After months of denial, German medical officials now call on people to wear makeshift masks in public to reduce contagion.

    University of California San Francisco is mandating mask use.

    NEW: CDC guidance on masks expected to change in next 10 days. Americans will be advised to wear masks in everyday life. Current recommendation is for high-risk groups only. (Sure, once the supply can meet the demand.)

    Turns out those of us on "team mask" from day 1 were correct.

    How many lives could have been spared had they been honest from the start?
    They could not have been honest from day one due to the severe lack of masks for the medical personnel. Maybe now that the shortage is easing somewhat they. can be honest and advise the general public to wear masks.

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    For the China apologists...you'd think maybe they do business with them...

    PUBLISHED ON JANUARY 10th...

    "HONG KONG — Chinese state media on Saturday reported the first known death from a new virus that has infected dozens of people in China and set off worries across Asia.The Xinhua news agency cited the health commission in the central Chinese city of Wuhan, where the illness first appeared, in reporting the death. The health commission said the patient, a 61-year-old man, died on Thursday night.
    Forty-one people have been found to have the new virus, a coronavirus, and seven patients are still in severe condition, the health commission said, according to the Xinhua report. Two patients have been discharged, it said.
    There is no evidence that the virus can be spread between humans, according to the commission. The initial cases were linked to workers at a market that sold live fish, birds and other animals. More than 700 people who had close contact with patients, including 419 medical workers, have been put under observation, the commission said, adding that no additional cases have been found."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/10/w...han-death.html

    That was long after they ordered scientists to destroy evidence it did spread between people.

    On those reports, other countries were supposed to close their borders to China?

    When was travel out of Wuhan banned? January 25th. By then it was in Jinjiang, from which tourists were able to fly around the world.

    When was the first confirmed case of the virus in Italy? January 30th, when a pair of Chinese tourists became ill and were quarantined. However, that isn't the strain ravaging most of Northern Italy, which comes from Jinjiang.

    WHO advisories in January...
    On 30th January 2020, the WHO Director General has declared the outbreak of novel coronavirus 2019- nCoV as a Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC), based on the advice of the Emergency Committee under the International Health Regulations (2005).1 Following that determination, WHO did not recommend any travel or trade restrictions, based on the current information available.
    https://www.who.int/news-room/articl...rus-2019-ncov/

    Italy banned all travel from China on January 30th. So did the U.S. When did the other EU countries do the same?



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