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Thread: New Coronavirus in China

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    I am out,

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    instead of moarning the dead, and pray
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    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
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    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    My Commentary is only regarding what I hope Italy does, not speaking for any other country as to what they should or not do, as I have no ancestral ties to any other country. I hope Italy votes out of the EU. Get control of their own borders and create policies that provide incentives that encourage Italian local businesses to manufacture key supplies, medical and food, first and foremost. Work with countries like the UK, and the USA. Italy has been one of the most loyal USA allies with 7 NATO bases starting in Catania, Sicily (Navy) to Army base I think it is North of Venice, with bases located in prime areas between Naples and Rome (Navy) and Army base in Tuscany. That is something I think the Italians have that the USA respects and values and can be used to develop more strategic relationships beyond NATO, ie. Economic. There are over 17 million Americans of Italian ancestry who love to visit Italy and buy lots of imported products from Italy, Wine, Cheese, Olives, Pasta, etc. Italy has over 300 ports best I can tell. That can be leveraged in terms of Italy impacting supply chains and transportation of goods throughout the Continent. From what I can tell, relations with Spain and Greece are very good (at least that is what I observed when I was there last Summer, again sample is only based on being in Sicily and Rome). So I think those are 2 other countries that Italy could easily negotiate direct bilateral trade deals with.

    UK and Brexit did not cause the Sun to not rise in the East and Set in the West.
    I understand the frustration.
    Every member state has its own reasons to leave.

    However, if Italians would vote, I hope they'll be better informed than this.
    Those voting Brexit were not.
    Where it all will lead to remains to be seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Rotterdam is the only with 6 degree doc/terminal in Europe,
    From Trapani:
    Not talking about inland ports, which the Dutch have plenty off, but that is more to transport goods from within Netherlands to the Sea Ports on the Coast.
    Not true. The biggest international and European orientated port capacity is in the North Sea room, Rotterdam is the only port in Europa that can compete in international context.

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    @ Trapani,

    my last question,
    these are the maximum predictions for USA before 2 days

    USA with Swiss's statistics


    Infected Deaths
    495155,98 5865,06






    USA with Italy's statistics


    Infected Deaths
    461592,55 34661,43


    The city will be hit most probably is NY and the nearby states,
    if presidents desicions do not like to Yankees,
    would you advise Yankees to Exit the Union, or to enter a confederation etc, in the middle of the crisis?
    if state measures for Alaska or Texas are not the best for Alaskans
    Would you advise Alaskans or Texans to revolt against Union? especially now, the moment of coronavirus battle?

    Only NY city 32000 infected when USA has 137 000, about 1/4
    How about indepentend NY and nearby?
    it has Manhatan, WTC, etc etc
    or better, how about a revolt?
    there are millions Irish Dutch Greeks Spanish etc, Europe will support them,

    Is it a wise advice now?
    would it help NYrkers or Alaskans or Italians to exit their Unions now or revolt?

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    Please, people, investigate before you speak.

    The Federal Government is sending to New York:

    4,000 ventilators with more to come

    PPE protective equipment

    The Federal Army Corp of Engineers, which has already built 4 field hospitals and is building 4 more

    A floating hospital ship in New York Harbor with one more to come

    Testing kits, plus...

    Billions in aid for New York's own efforts against the Coronavirus.

    The only comparison is Hubei province and the help which came in from the central government, although ours is a federal system and a democracy, so more decisions and procurements are made on a local level.

    THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON WITH ITALY (or SPAIN) and the EU.

    The EU has given Italy no help WHATSOEVER: NONE. ZILCH. NADA.

    Albania is the only individual country so far which has stepped up, because they remember what aid was given to them, and they have some honor.

    If you don't know anything about what's going on in the U.S. then don't try to compare it to the situation in the EU.

    As for what happens after, if it were up to me I'd exit the EU, say screw your Euros, and get help elsewhere, from China if necessary. Let China help us rebuild, as the U.S. did after WWII. I'd prefer it be the U.S. again, but President Trump, even if it meant beneficial trade deals, has a Congress to answer to...The Communist Party of China answers only to itself, and they always take the long view.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Please, people, investigate before you speak.

    The Federal Government is sending to New York:

    4,000 ventilators with more to come

    PPE protective equipment

    The Federal Army Corp of Engineers, which has already built 4 field hospitals and is building 4 more

    A floating hospital ship in New York Harbor with one more to come

    Testing kits, plus...

    Billions in aid for New York's own efforts against the Coronavirus.

    The only comparison is Hubei province and the help which came in from the central government, although ours is a federal system and a democracy, so more decisions and procurements are made on a local level.

    THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON WITH ITALY (or SPAIN) and the EU.

    The EU has given Italy no help WHATSOEVER: NONE. ZILCH. NADA.

    Albania is the only individual country so far which has stepped up, because they remember what aid was given to them, and they have some honor.

    If you don't know anything about what's going on in the U.S. then don't try to compare it to the situation in the EU.

    As for what happens after, if it were up to me I'd exit the EU, say screw your Euros, and get help elsewhere, from China if necessary. Let China help us rebuild, as the U.S. did after WWII. I'd prefer it be the U.S. again, but President Trump, even if it meant beneficial trade deals, has a Congress to answer to...The Communist Party of China answers only to itself, and they always take the long view.
    Just so I don't have to listen to any more nonsense about it:

    7 million people left Wuhan, China in January...after govt officials knew about coronavirus human to human transmission (and suppressed it) before travel was restricted (NYT).7 million people.

    If we're going to have to "sup" with the devil, we'd better have really long spoons. (Chaucer, if I remember correctly). :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    From Trapani:


    Not true. The biggest international and European orientated port capacity is in the North Sea room, Rotterdam is the only port in Europa that can compete in international context.
    I am well aware of that port being the largest. However, Italy has the ability, or can partner with countries, to develop several of those 311 ports to compete more on an International Level if its Political leaders can think Strategically. As I also stated, Italy strategically is very Important to the USA with the 7 Military installations it has from Catania in Sicily (US Navy) and US Army In Veneto (Airborne Units). For the most part, Italy's politicians, even the Center Left have kept those who maybe are not happy about the US having that much of a presence there at bay (even during the 80's when tensions were hotter during Reagan/Thatcher/Soviet Union era). From individuals I know that have served in the US Armed forces, and friends who have family who have served, there, overwhelmingly US Military personnel feel they are treated very well by the Italians and enjoy being posted in Italy.

    I am not disputing the Rotterdam port being the largest in Europe, it is no doubt. My analysis is only looking at the potential strategic assets that Italy has if it were to leave the EU. The 311 Ports is one asset and the importance of Italy as a NATO ally to the USA and its strategic importance given the amount of strategically located Military installations I think gives Italy some strategic advantages that it could leverage if its Political leaders were not so "pazzo."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Please, people, investigate before you speak.

    The Federal Government is sending to New York:

    4,000 ventilators with more to come

    PPE protective equipment

    The Federal Army Corp of Engineers, which has already built 4 field hospitals and is building 4 more

    A floating hospital ship in New York Harbor with one more to come

    Testing kits, plus...

    Billions in aid for New York's own efforts against the Coronavirus.

    The only comparison is Hubei province and the help which came in from the central government, although ours is a federal system and a democracy, so more decisions and procurements are made on a local level.

    THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON WITH ITALY (or SPAIN) and the EU.

    The EU has given Italy no help WHATSOEVER: NONE. ZILCH. NADA.

    Albania is the only individual country so far which has stepped up, because they remember what aid was given to them, and they have some honor.

    If you don't know anything about what's going on in the U.S. then don't try to compare it to the situation in the EU.

    As for what happens after, if it were up to me I'd exit the EU, say screw your Euros, and get help elsewhere, from China if necessary. Let China help us rebuild, as the U.S. did after WWII. I'd prefer it be the U.S. again, but President Trump, even if it meant beneficial trade deals, has a Congress to answer to...The Communist Party of China answers only to itself, and they always take the long view.
    Italy send 300 000 masks to china
    and china return 1 000 000,

    as for the rest,
    I repeat,
    Italy order equipment from Turkey which stoped at Customs,
    and made equipments for Greece whichstop at Customs,
    effect of open trade and globalization import to rest world by Clinton after the war in Yugoslavia.

    Italy has broke all records
    But Also Italians manage to achive the unique -NO CORONAVIRUS- record at 14 days,
    that means that Italians have the guts, and the strong will, if decide and guided correct,

    Again for last time,

    I am making policy like a vulture beside the dead, or like the waiting raven beside the wound.


    As for USA
    they are 2 months behind Wuhan
    and 1 month behind Europe,
    and yet boming like crazy,
    If they want they could stop it,
    They had the time to do it,
    But no, nowthey run to build field hospitals
    and by what I rearn they hire 2000 fridge tracks for their,
    Italy was surprized, Europe was surprized,
    BUT USA HAS NO EXCUSE to call surprized.


    σωνε, I feel guilty,
    we speak politics behind a screen, instead of volunteer for help,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    @ Trapani,

    my last question,
    these are the maximum predictions for USA before 2 days

    USA with Swiss's statistics


    Infected Deaths
    495155,98 5865,06






    USA with Italy's statistics


    Infected Deaths
    461592,55 34661,43


    The city will be hit most probably is NY and the nearby states,
    if presidents desicions do not like to Yankees,
    would you advise Yankees to Exit the Union, or to enter a confederation etc, in the middle of the crisis?
    if state measures for Alaska or Texas are not the best for Alaskans
    Would you advise Alaskans or Texans to revolt against Union? especially now, the moment of coronavirus battle?

    Only NY city 32000 infected when USA has 137 000, about 1/4
    How about indepentend NY and nearby?
    it has Manhatan, WTC, etc etc
    or better, how about a revolt?
    there are millions Irish Dutch Greeks Spanish etc, Europe will support them,

    Is it a wise advice now?
    would it help NYrkers or Alaskans or Italians to exit their Unions now or revolt?

    Yetos: The USA is a Country. The EU is not a country and what we saw when early on when Italy starting having problems is all the major EU countries did not quickly close their airports, even when Italy did (restricting travel from China). Border checks were not in place, so returning Chinese celebrating the Chinese new year, celebrations that were in full force in January in anticipation of the Chinese New year which began on 25 January, could fly to France, or Holland, or Germany and catch a train back to Italy. Once the proverbial crap hit the fan in Italy, what did France and Germany do. Restrict any medical supplies, medical equipment, from being shipped to Italy. Border checks were put in place to prevent the shipment of such goods. So while Italy was hit with this, other EU countries had time to stock up supplies, equipment and prepare hospitals before the crap hit the fan in there countries. So what did being in the EU matter to Italy?

    So Italians revolting against the EU is not comparable to a US State revolting against the USA. The EU is just a "whatever it is now" between member countries.

    Like I said, I hope Italy leaves the EU. That is my hope. For the USA, I voted for Trump in 2016 and will vote for him again. He was 100% correct in 2016 that 1) Borders matter, and you better have strong security measures on knowing who is coming in and out and be able to protect your border when you need to (which btw, is exactly what Mr. Macron and Ms. Merkel did once they saw how Bad Italy was being hit), 2) Trump in 2016 has been consistently talking about the USA being to dependent on China for too much stuff and that hurts the Economic and National security of the USA, and now we know, Health Security

    Whatever happens, I hope this causes a rethinking of the Supply Chain of goods as it relates to the USA (people from other countries can vote for leaders in your own country to deal with these issues going forward) and now the majority of this Country will wake up to having Border security and an orderly system that processes immigrants into this Country. As I pointed out to some friends of mine, when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941, resulting the next day the USA entering WW2, FDR could sit in Washington DC and look across the USA and everything this country needed to equip what would be 16 Million servicemen was able to be produced right in the USA. Today, this country can't produce enough medical equipment, supplies to deal with this and 80% of the Pharmaceuticals that this country needs come from Communist China. That is while I want say Criminal, is as far beyond Stupid as one can go, i.e. eternally stupid.

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    Dr. Fauci predicts that there will only be between 100,000 to 200,000 deaths in the United States:

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...es/2935804001/

    The Imperial model by Neil Ferguson had it at 2.2 million. However, he had to adjust it, because it was not reflecting reality...

    Who knows if there will be even less, hopefully!
    There can be no covenants between men and lions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Yetos: The USA is a Country. The EU is not a country and what we saw when early on when Italy starting having problems is all the major EU countries did not quickly close their airports, even when Italy did (restricting travel from China). Border checks were not in place, so returning Chinese celebrating the Chinese new year, celebrations that were in full force in January in anticipation of the Chinese New year which began on 25 January, could fly to France, or Holland, or Germany and catch a train back to Italy. Once the proverbial crap hit the fan in Italy, what did France and Germany do. Restrict any medical supplies, medical equipment, from being shipped to Italy. Border checks were put in place to prevent the shipment of such goods. So while Italy was hit with this, other EU countries had time to stock up supplies, equipment and prepare hospitals before the crap hit the fan in there countries. So what did being in the EU matter to Italy?
    why should this be the EU's fault? Italy could have closed their borders towards european countries anytime. they didn't. and those borders were open for a very long time in both directions. even now they are only partially closed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Yetos: The USA is a Country. The EU is not a country and what we saw when early on when Italy starting having problems is all the major EU countries did not quickly close their airports, even when Italy did (restricting travel from China). Border checks were not in place, so returning Chinese celebrating the Chinese new year, celebrations that were in full force in January in anticipation of the Chinese New year which began on 25 January, could fly to France, or Holland, or Germany and catch a train back to Italy. Once the proverbial crap hit the fan in Italy, what did France and Germany do. Restrict any medical supplies, medical equipment, from being shipped to Italy. Border checks were put in place to prevent the shipment of such goods. So while Italy was hit with this, other EU countries had time to stock up supplies, equipment and prepare hospitals before the crap hit the fan in there countries. So what did being in the EU matter to Italy?

    So Italians revolting against the EU is not comparable to a US State revolting against the USA. The EU is just a "whatever it is now" between member countries.

    Like I said, I hope Italy leaves the EU. That is my hope. For the USA, I voted for Trump in 2016 and will vote for him again. He was 100% correct in 2016 that 1) Borders matter, and you better have strong security measures on knowing who is coming in and out and be able to protect your border when you need to (which btw, is exactly what Mr. Macron and Ms. Merkel did once they saw how Bad Italy was being hit), 2) Trump in 2016 has been consistently talking about the USA being to dependent on China for too much stuff and that hurts the Economic and National security of the USA, and now we know, Health Security

    Whatever happens, I hope this causes a rethinking of the Supply Chain of goods as it relates to the USA (people from other countries can vote for leaders in your own country to deal with these issues going forward) and now the majority of this Country will wake up to having Border security and an orderly system that processes immigrants into this Country. As I pointed out to some friends of mine, when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941, resulting the next day the USA entering WW2, FDR could sit in Washington DC and look across the USA and everything this country needed to equip what would be 16 Million servicemen was able to be produced right in the USA. Today, this country can't produce enough medical equipment, supplies to deal with this and 80% of the Pharmaceuticals that this country needs come from Communist China. That is while I want say Criminal, is as far beyond Stupid as one can go, i.e. eternally stupid.

    No Excuse,
    like vultures we both discuss politics,
    and yes Italy has the right to exit Union,
    as also NY to exit has the right to exit Union or federal, even revolt,

    But it is not the correct timing,
    First see what your country does, booming after 2 months of Coronavirus existance Information,
    and then advice Italians or Spanish etc to exit.
    when Coronavirus pass we have both time to discuss about it,
    and finally it is the residents of Italy who decide,
    Not Greeks, not Francais, not Americans,

    politics in EU have nothing to do with USA,
    Italian goverment could close boarder, and be prepaired earlier,
    and yes we could say was Surprised, cause enter through Alps, and not from China,
    and Italians achive the unique, to erase coronavirus from some areas,
    But What about USA?
    booming 2 months after Wuhan? one month after Italy?

    the judgement of everybody's sin or faults is after the battle,
    Only you do now is harming your beloved Italy and bring Panic to them.
    Italians now need other voices and help, to strength their will and courage.
    Than my or your political advise
    After the battle we make desissions about who's sin or mistake,
    and desicions we will be by Italian people who suffered in Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Dr. Fauci predicts that there will only be 200,000 deaths in the United States:

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...es/2935804001/

    This is 2 million less than the original model proposed by Neil Ferguson, who had it at 2.2 million.

    Who knows if there will be even less, hopefully.
    Yes, but what would the numbers have been like without all of this "social distancing"?

    Interview with Dr. Fauci (a doctor doing the interview, thank God, not these moron reporters).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, but what would the numbers have been like without all of this "social distancing"?

    Interview with Dr. Fauci (a doctor doing the interview, thank God, not these moron reporters).

    Consider though, that the virus started in mid-November. Theoretically, it could have reached places like NYC, within the same day, or week. This leads me to speculate that the vast majority of cases were probably asymptomatic. Prior to this, many cases could have been misdiagnosed as a flu, or allergies. At any rate, I do in fact think it is important to practice social distancing, as I myself have been doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    why should this be the EU's fault? Italy could have closed their borders towards european countries anytime. they didn't. and those borders were open for a very long time in both directions. even now they are only partially closed.
    I assume you are pro EU. That is fine. As for why Italy did not close its borders more quickly and shut down air travel from China quickly. Lots of reasons I can think of, 1) Disinformation coming from China as recently as 15 January, when the WHO (extension of the UN) reported that Chinese Government officials are telling the WHO that there is no evidence of human to human transmission (which was a lie on the Chinese part and shows either complicit behavior by the WHO or stupidity on their part, which from my perspective are observational equivalents). 2) So if Italy would have early on stopped Chinese workers, students, tourist from entering Italy at that time, what would have been the statements from the EU leaders in Brussels? I think I know because I am well aware when Italy cracked down on illegal migrants a few years back, what the EU PR machine did. So absent a medical crisis like this, does Italy under EU rules have the ability to close its borders and impose border checks? I honestly don't know.

    I never said the COVID 19 virus was the EU's fault, it is the Chinese Governments fault, and what they allow to happen with these "wet markets.". As I noted above, they were even as of 15 January being untruthful about it and the WHO was, well I already stated. The response to the situation was/is what I am being critical about with respect to the EU.
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 30-03-20 at 00:47. Reason: WTO should be WHO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    why should this be the EU's fault? Italy could have closed their borders towards european countries anytime. they didn't. and those borders were open for a very long time in both directions. even now they are only partially closed.

    You talk as if we created the virus or it first occurred there. China knew about it, whether it occurred naturally or escaped from the bio-weapons lab in Wuhan in late November. In December doctors who were warning about it were punished, researchers who were investigating it and knew it could be spread from person to person were told to destroy their research. On January 10th they announced they had isolated it, but as LATE as JANUARY 25th they were saying it couldn't spread from human to human, which they knew wasn't true. The documentation is upthread.

    Only at the end of January did they try to close down Wuhan. Italy closed its borders to China on January 30th, and so did the U.S.A. When did the rest of the EU countries do the same?

    Anyway, it was already too late by the time China announced what they had on their hands. SEVEN MILLION PEOPLE HAD LEFT WUHAN IN THE INTERVENING TIME. The first case on the west coast of the U.S. was already here by January 10th. Italy gets a LOT of tourists from China. It was ALREADY in ITALY by the time China admitted there was human to human transmission.

    As to traffic within the EU:

    Maybe if Italy had closed its borders with Germany right away the Jinjiang strain wouldn't have gotten into Italy. Let's be honest. Why would they look for danger from that direction? It didn't occur to them that a businesswoman from Jinjiang who later got ill with the virus and also infected half of the Germans with whom she came into contact, might prove dangerous to Lombardia because one contact was missed or broke quarantine. Maybe it entered a separate way. Does it matter?

    There are a few strains in Northern Europe right now, one from an Austrian ski resort which kept open into March although they knew people in the town were ill. Why don't you go and ask Austria why they left their borders open with Germany, or Germany with Austria? The East Asian nations are quarantining any of their nationals who come back from Europe for fear of reinfection. Why didn't the EU countries do that when their nationals living in Italy went home once the lockdown was announced? Was Italy supposed to keep them in Italy at gunpoint?

    Or maybe you should ask the WHO why, during all that time, they didn't advise travel restrictions, not even against China.

    Do I have to keep repeating this over and over? People are entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts.

    Plus, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MAJOR POINT. What does the EU mean? If it doesn't mean that member states facing the first wave of a common emergency can get help from other member states, at least in terms of PPE, ventilators etc., if it's each country for itself, then screw the EU.

    Get out just like Britain did. It was the best thing Britain's done in a long time. All they want you for is to serve as markets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    I assume you are pro EU. That is fine. As for why Italy did not close its borders more quickly and shut down air travel from China quickly. Lots of reasons I can think of, 1) Disinformation coming from China as recently as 15 January, when the WTO (extension of the UN) reported that Chinese Government officials are telling the WTO that there is no evidence of human to human transmission (which was a lie on the Chinese part and shows either complicit behavior by the WTO or stupidity on their part, which from my perspective are observational equivalents). 2) So if Italy would have early on stopped Chinese workers, students, tourist from entering Italy at that time, what would have been the statements from the EU leaders in Brussels? I think I know because I am well aware when Italy cracked down on illegal migrants a few years back, what the EU PR machine did. So absent a medical crisis like this, does Italy under EU rules have the ability to close its borders and impose border checks? I honestly don't know.

    I never said the COVID 19 virus was the EU's fault, it is the Chinese Governments fault, and what they allow to happen with these "wet markets.". As I noted above, they were even as of 15 January being untruthful about it and the WTO was, well I already stated. The response to the situation was/is what I am being critical about with respect to the EU.
    now we both step a more normal path,
    It could be also a political mistake,
    a backdoor not predicted,
    Surely Ialy was surprised,
    Coronavirus to Italy did not enter from China,
    but from Alpine Skier resorts,

    No, I am not a pro EU,
    this EU is not the EU I want,
    But the old EC before 1990's,
    Yet the Idea is the same.

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    Yetos: With respect to the USA and secession, after the Civil War (1861-1865), the US Supreme Court in Texas vs. White (1869) ruled no US State can on there own leave the USA. That begs the question, how could States leave the USA. Well, one option would be Revolution, which no rational person wants to happen. And Defacto that is really going back to the Civil War Secession idea. The only legal option would be I guess is if State petitioned to leave and a required number of other States approved the Secession. Problem is nobody knows what that looks like as it has never been tried. So NY hypothetically unilaterally leaving the Union on its own would be a direct attack on the US Constitution and would constitute a legal insurrection, which is the same thing 11 Southern States did in 1861, Unilaterally left.

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    FFS, the U.S. federal government has not abandoned New York to its own devices. Stop comparing apples to oranges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    now we both step a more normal path,
    It could be also a political mistake,
    a backdoor not predicted,
    Surely Ialy was surprised,
    Coronavirus to Italy did not enter from China,
    but from Alpine Skier resorts,

    No, I am not a pro EU,
    this EU is not the EU I want,
    But the old EC before 1990's,
    Yet the Idea is the same.
    Yetos, the virus did come from China. The first person in Italy to test positive was a 38 year old Italian man who came into contact with someone returning from China. Now, typical of the American left wing press, they don't tell us who this guy is that infected the 38 year old Italian man. But to their credit, the clearly say he came back from Wuhan, China on 21 January, which btw was the same time that the first person in USA tested positive. So I go back to the time around 15 January, The Chinese Communist Government new that human to human transmission was real. At that same time, the WHO, which is branch of the UN, sent out a report communicating that the Chinese Government told them no human to human transmission is possible. So after this is over, President Trump needs to investigate why did the WHO put out information to cover for China. I have my theories, 1) the WHO is your typical Globalist open border organization, like the UN who it falls under, 2) China has lots of investments in countries that are developing and the WHO does not want to cross them

    https://apnews.com/3ff698881c3cf741f0762a9d5c76031a

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    I assume you are pro EU. That is fine. As for why Italy did not close its borders more quickly and shut down air travel from China quickly. Lots of reasons I can think of, 1) Disinformation coming from China as recently as 15 January, when the WTO (extension of the UN) reported that Chinese Government officials are telling the WTO that there is no evidence of human to human transmission (which was a lie on the Chinese part and shows either complicit behavior by the WTO or stupidity on their part, which from my perspective are observational equivalents). 2) So if Italy would have early on stopped Chinese workers, students, tourist from entering Italy at that time, what would have been the statements from the EU leaders in Brussels? I think I know because I am well aware when Italy cracked down on illegal migrants a few years back, what the EU PR machine did. So absent a medical crisis like this, does Italy under EU rules have the ability to close its borders and impose border checks? I honestly don't know.

    I never said the COVID 19 virus was the EU's fault, it is the Chinese Governments fault, and what they allow to happen with these "wet markets.". As I noted above, they were even as of 15 January being untruthful about it and the WTO was, well I already stated. The response to the situation was/is what I am being critical about with respect to the EU.
    no, i mean that noone forces Italy to hold the borders towards europe open. it is their decision. they can close them if there is a good reason. and i think if Italy said we want to close them because you others still allow people from china inside it would have been possible.
    and it goes both ways many countries in europe did not want to close their borders towards Italy but they could have if they wanted to do so. i guess for many it just doesn't work because the economic connection is too strong.

    if there was no EU nothing would be different in this regard. every country would have decided for themselves whether they will shut down travel from china or other countries. like it was the case now.

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    The shock in the routine of large Brazilian cities, in quarantine by the coronavirus. High-traffic regions completely empty. Source: El País/Brasil - today- 6:30PM - Time of Brasília.

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    Downtown Rio de Janeiro (12 330 186 inhabitants):


    Downtown Belo Horizonte (5 873 841 inhabitants):

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    FFS, the U.S. federal government has not abandoned New York to its own devices. Stop comparing apples to oranges.
    for now,

    USA booming is at start, lets see after,
    when number get astronomical,
    and Italy and EU have the excuse since boom it is 1 month after Wuhan
    But in USA is 2 months after Wuhan and 1 after Europe,
    lets see USA stats and then we talk again,

    Notice that USA today knows about the 4 medicines
    Remdesivir
    Plaquenil (cloroquine)
    Zithromax
    in Greece now we use Colchicine with Very good results specially at second phase, with very good results,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Yetos, the virus did come from China. The first person in Italy to test positive was a 38 year old Italian man who came into contact with someone returning from China. Now, typical of the American left wing press, they don't tell us who this guy is that infected the 38 year old Italian man. But to their credit, the clearly say he came back from Wuhan, China on 21 January, which btw was the same time that the first person in USA tested positive. So I go back to the time around 15 January, The Chinese Communist Government new that human to human transmission was real. At that same time, the WHO, which is branch of the UN, sent out a report communicating that the Chinese Government told them no human to human transmission is possible. So after this is over, President Trump needs to investigate why did the WHO put out information to cover for China. I have my theories, 1) the WHO is your typical Globalist open border organization, like the UN who it falls under, 2) China has lots of investments in countries that are developing and the WHO does not want to cross them

    https://apnews.com/3ff698881c3cf741f0762a9d5c76031a
    search WEBASTO corporation,
    Infected Deutschland Italy.

    China is Quilty anyway,
    only when force the poor doctor to sign that he was mistaken is enough,
    As we also never know what really happened there, the numbers could be fake,
    etc etc,

    but right now I do not know if it wise to judge her,
    time will come for this also,

    THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN HIDE UNDER THE SUN as we say in Greece,
    τιποτα δεν μπορει να κρυφτει κατω απο τον ηλιο.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    for now,

    USA booming is at start, lets see after,
    when number get astronomical,
    and Italy and EU have the excuse since boom it is 1 month after Wuhan
    But in USA is 2 months after Wuhan and 1 after Europe,
    lets see USA stats and then we talk again,

    Notice that USA today knows about the 4 medicines
    Remdesivir
    Plaquenil (cloroquine)
    Zithromax
    in Greece now we use Colchicine with Very good results specially at second phase, with very good results,
    If you bothered to listen to the links I provided instead of always analyzing through your reflexive anti-Americanism, you would know that randomized control trials of Plaquenil, Plaquenil with Zithromax, Remdesivir and others are all being conducted in the U.S. as we speak. Governor Cuomo has been talking about them every freaking day and how he is personally following the progress of the trials.

    Unless someone is on a ventilator and has only a day to live, to give patients untested drugs, by which I mean drugs which have NOT gone through "randomized control trials", is irresponsible, bordering on malpractice. It could make someone with mild symptoms worse; we just don't know yet.

    It's like the vaccine. There are a number already in trials. YOU CAN'T RUSH THE SCIENCE when it comes to vaccines.

    Left one out: plasma transfusions, and probably others.

    Btw, all the mommy and me New Age anti-vaxxers have gone strangely silent, haven't they?

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