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Thread: New Coronavirus in China

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    "In Illinois, black people make up about 30% of the state's cases and about 40% of its coronavirus-related deaths, according to statistics provided by the state's public health agency. However, African Americans make up just 14.6% of the state's population.

    In Michigan, black people account for 40% of the state's reported deaths, according to data released by the state, but its population is only 14% African American"



    https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/african-americans-more-likely-to-die-from-coronavirus-illness-early-data-shows/ar-BB12ecdj
    You have to look at where in the state all these cases and deaths are occurring. Detroit which has most of the cases and most of the deaths is heavily African American. I am sure the same thing is true in Illinois.
    Last edited by bigsnake49; 07-04-20 at 15:32.

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    Is Sweden doing the right thing in fighting the coronavirus epidemic? They have not shut down their country, they have not isolated the young they have only isolated their vulnerable populations. Their ICU's numbers are declining:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/sweden-fo...103003618.html

    I always thought that the isolation should have been imposed on people that actually came from abroad in the beginning of the epidemic and the old and the frail. After that I thought that it was useless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Sorry my man but it's not a conspiracy post unless the name Soros is in it .

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    You have to look at where in the state all these cases and deaths are occurring. Detroit which has most of the cases nd most of the deaths is heavily African American. I am sure the same thing is true in Illinois.
    I think there is definitely a genetic component to the larger number of deaths in African-Americans.

    So why has Africa been spared so far?

    Limited testing

    A simple explanation, say public health experts, could be that the continent simply hasn't had the ability to detect cases up until now.As of late last week, only two African countries — Senegal and South Africa — had laboratories capable of testing and confirming samples for the virus."We can't tell if we have had cases of the novel coronavirus and are missing them; perhaps these cases have come and we didn't detect them," said Isaac Ngere, a Kenyan-based researcher specializing in the outbreak of diseases.

    https://www.dw.com/en/africa-has-been-spared-so-far-from-coronavirus-why/a-52382666
    The small number of deaths in Africa is most likely due to lack of data collection. For people who suggest it is mostly due social factors, than why is it so much less reported in native Africans, who are undoubtedly worse off than African-Americans? I think it is certainly a combination of both genetic, and social factors. If they were able to ascertain the data adequately, I think we would see a relatively huge number in Africa.
    There can be no covenants between men and lions

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    You have to look at where in the state all these cases and deaths are occurring. Detroit which has most of the cases nd most of the deaths is heavily African American. I am sure the same thing is true in Illinois.
    It's true in NYC as well, but there are, as I said, a lot of confounding factors which will have to be investigated. Genetics has to come into this to some degree. All health related matters are impacted by it.








    It seems even the Coronavirus is a bit leery of going into Bayridge and Bensonhurst. :)

    (Those areas are very Italian American, and the media loves to claim crime is low there because some mob bosses live there.)



    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Is Sweden doing the right thing in fighting the coronavirus epidemic? They have not shut down their country, they have not isolated the young they have only isolated their vulnerable populations. Their ICU's numbers are declining:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/sweden-fo...103003618.html

    I always thought that the isolation should have been imposed on people that actually came from abroad in the beginning of the epidemic and the old and the frail. After that I thought that it was useless.
    I heard about that,
    Scands always surprise us,
    But what will happen if that follows Spain,

    At Spain, the 'Nurses' (if we can use the term) Abbandoned the aged ones, alone at the 'Nursing hospitals'.

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    Coronavirus Intensive Care Patients in the UK given 50% chance of Survival says Shock Report

    These high death rates raise questions about just how effective critical care will be in saving the lives of people struck down by the disease.
    As a top priority, the NHS is opening field hospitals in London, Birmingham and Manchester, which will incorporate some of the biggest critical care units ever seen in Britain.
    “The truth is that quite a lot of these individuals [in critical care] are going to die anyway and there is a fear that we are just ventilating them for the sake of it, for the sake of doing something for them, even though it won’t be effective. That’s a worry,” one doctor said."

    Well, that's a heartless thing to say; you're saving 50% of them after all. Should they not ventilate Boris Johnson now???


    The report also found that though the majority of those who have died from coronavirus across the UK were over 70, nine of the 79 who died in intensive care were aged between 16 and 49, as were 28 of the 86 who survived.
    The audit suggested that men are at much higher risk from the virus – seven in 10 of all ICU patients were male, while 30 per cent of men in critical care were under 60, compared to just 15 per cent of women. Excess weight also appears to be a significant risk factor; over 70 per cent of patients were overweight, obese or clinically obese on the body mass index scale."

    https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2020/...-shock-report/

    Actually, one stat I saw says if you have to have a ventilator within 24 hours of going into ICU you have a 30% chance of survival, otherwise 70%.

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    Sky News announced British police are asking for facial spit guards because there are people who are spitting at them and biting them while claiming they have Covid 19.

    Jesus Christ. I still get surprised at the vileness of people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Sky News announced British police are asking for facial spit guards because there are people who are spitting at them and biting them while claiming they have Covid 19.

    Jesus Christ. I still get surprised at the vileness of people.
    I am sometimes surprised how uncivilized some of the lower economic class Brits are.

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    Statistics of 06/04/2020

    SPEAD OF VIRUS

    @bigsnake69
    I added 2 coloumns so to compare the mortality and Recovery raise




    Notice
    1rst
    is booming of Infection, the data are only confirmed cases
    2nd is the booming of deaths, (the average Delay as calculated by Crete University on Greek samples is 7-14 days after infection, the day entered the samples gathering)
    3rd is the booming of recovered, (the delay is at least 21 days + 3 days at least to do second test plus the time that doctor estimates to be secure)
    4rth, some countries like Norway for example who had big spread from 3 MAR, do not report massive recovered cases yet, although more than a month under infection, the delay there is bigger



    to extract estimation the column Active% can tell us how exactly could be,
    above 68,1 % the statistical mistake is 'big'
    for example for Spain and Swiss we can estimate with a mistake of second class number, even for Italy,
    but not for USA, the mistake could be above 1 unit even 2 of first class number


    COUNTRY Population /1000 Confirmed infected deaths upon confirmed recover Active % Confirmed infected /1000 people Current Mortality of conf. Mortality 3 APR Recover rate of conf. Recover 3 APR Estimated mortality up lim Estimated mortality low lim estimated deaths *




























    1 San Marino 33 266 32 35 74,81 8,0606 0,1203 0,1224 0,1316 0,0857


    2 Andora 76 525 21 31 90,10 6,9079 0,0400 0,0280 0,0590 0,0234


    3 Luxenbourg 614 2843 41 500 80,97 4,6303 0,0144 0,0121 0,1759 0,0322


    4 Iceland 364 1562 6 460 70,17 4,2912 0,0038 0,0030 0,2945 0,2153


    5 Feroe isls 52 183 0 107 41,53 3,5192 0,0000 0,0000 0,5847 0,5084


    6 Spain 46733 136675 13341 40437 60,65 2,9246 0,0976 0,0923 0,2959 0,2386


    7 Swiss 8570 21657 765 8056 59,27 2,5271 0,0353 0,0285 0,3720 0,2132


    8 Italy 60318 132547 16523 22837 70,30 2,1975 0,1247 0,1207 0,1723 0,1586


    9 Liechtenstein 39 77 1 55 27,27 1,9744 0,0130 0,0000 0,7143 0,0000


    10 Belgium 11516 20814 1632 3986 73,01 1,8074 0,0784 0,0659 0,1915 0,1626


    11 France 67022 98010 8911 17250 73,31 1,4624 0,0909 0,0911 0,1760 0,2103


    12 Austria 8903 12297 220 3563 69,24 1,3812 0,0179 0,0141 0,2897 0,1562


    13 EU 449507 578836 46113 121011 72,42 1,2877 0,0797 0,0756 0,2692 0,1905


    14 Deutch 83149 103374 1810 28700 70,49 1,2432 0,0175 0,0131 0,2776 0,2699


    15 Portugal 10277 11730 311 140 96,16 1,1414 0,0265 0,0231 0,0119 0,0075


    16 USA 328240 368196 10986 19828 91,63 1,1217 0,0298 0,0247 0,0539 0,0376


    17 Norway 5368 5865 76 32 98,16 1,0926 0,0130 0,0096 0,0055 0,0061


    18 Netherlands 17425 18803 1867 250 88,74 1,0791 0,0993 0,0911 0,0133 0,0170


    19 Esthonia 1328 1108 19 62 92,69 0,8343 0,0171 0,0128 0,0560 0,0524


    20 Ireland 6573 5364 174 25 96,29 0,8161 0,0324 0,0255 0,0047 0,0013


    21 Denmark 5823 4681 187 1378 66,57 0,8039 0,0399 0,0363 0,2944 0,3216


    22 UK 67547 51608 5373 135 89,33 0,7640 0,1041 0,0866 0,0026 0,0040


    23 sweden 10303 7206 477 205 90,54 0,6994 0,0662 0,0553 0,0284 0,0185


    24 Malta 494 241 0 5 97,93 0,4879 0,0000 0,0000 0,0207 0,0102


    25 Slovenia 2100 1021 30 102 87,07 0,4862 0,0294 0,0190 0,0999 0,0780


    26 Czech 10650 4822 78 121 95,87 0,4528 0,0162 0,0119 0,0251 0,0184


    27 Finland 5521 2176 27 300 84,97 0,3941 0,0124 0,0118 0,1379 0,1858


    28 Cyprus 1189 465 9 45 88,39 0,3911 0,0194 0,0281 0,0968 0,0787


    29 Montenegro 631 233 2 1 98,71 0,3693 0,0086 0,0125 0,0043 0,0000


    30 Turkey 82004 30217 649 1326 93,46 0,3685 0,0215 0,0196 0,0439 0,0229


    31 Moldova 2682 965 19 37 94,20 0,3598 0,0197 0,0119 0,0383 0,0455


    32 Serbia 6964 2200 58 0 97,36 0,3159 0,0264 0,0265 0,0000 0,0000


    33 Lithuania 2794 843 15 8 97,27 0,3017 0,0178 0,0129 0,0095 0,0101


    34 Croatia 4076 1222 16 130 88,05 0,2998 0,0131 0,0069 0,1064 0,0178


    35 Lettonia 1920 542 1 16 96,86 0,2823 0,0018 0,0000 0,0295 0,0629


    36 Severna Mac 2077 570 23 30 90,70 0,2744 0,0404 0,0286 0,0286 0,0443


    37 Romania 19402 4057 176 406 85,65 0,2091 0,0434 0,0424 0,1001 0,0975


    38 Bosnia 3511 674 29 47 88,72 0,1920 0,0430 0,0295 0,0697 0,0497


    39 Greece 10768 1755 79 269 80,17 0,1630 0,0450 0,0343 0,1533 0,0395


    40 Albania 2877 377 21 116 63,66 0,1310 0,0557 0,0578 0,3077 0,2744


    41 Poland 38386 4413 107 162 93,90 0,1150 0,0242 0,0193 0,0367 0,0190


    42 Slovakia 5450 534 2 8 98,13 0,0980 0,0037 0,0023 0,0150 0,0117


    43 Kossovo 1810 145 1 23 83,45 0,0801 0,0069 0,0079 0,1586 0,0794


    44 Bulgaria 7000 549 22 39 88,89 0,0784 0,0401 0,0252 0,0710 0,0629


    45 Hungary 9773 744 38 67 85,89 0,0761 0,0511 0,0417 0,0901 0,0690


    46 Belarus 9492 700 13 53 90,57 0,0737 0,0186 0,0132 0,0757 0,1743


    47 mainland China 1427648 82655 3335 77310 2,43 0,0579 0,0403 0,0403 0,9353 0,9306


    48 Russia 146745 6343 47 406 92,86 0,0432 0,0074 0,0082 0,0640 0,0677


    49 Ukraine 42031 1319 38 28 95,00 0,0314 0,0288 0,0244 0,0212 0,0202


    Last edited by Yetos; 07-04-20 at 07:26.

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    Statistics of 06/02/2020

    Current mortality


    COUNTRY Population /1000 Confirmed infected deaths upon confirmed Confirmed infected /1000 people Current Mortality of conf. Mortality 3 APR














    1 Italy 60318 132547 16523 2,1975 0,1247 0,1207
    2 San Marino 33 266 32 8,0606 0,1203 0,1224
    3 UK 67547 51608 5373 0,7640 0,1041 0,0866
    4 Netherlands 17425 18803 1867 1,0791 0,0993 0,0911
    5 Spain 46733 136675 13341 2,9246 0,0976 0,0923
    6 France 67022 98010 8911 1,4624 0,0909 0,0911
    7 EU 449507 578836 46113 1,2877 0,0797 0,0756
    8 Belgium 11516 20814 1632 1,8074 0,0784 0,0659
    9 sweden 10303 7206 477 0,6994 0,0662 0,0553
    10 Albania 2877 377 21 0,1310 0,0557 0,0578
    11 Hungary 9773 744 38 0,0761 0,0511 0,0417
    12 Greece 10768 1755 79 0,1630 0,0450 0,0343
    13 Romania 19402 4057 176 0,2091 0,0434 0,0424
    14 Bosnia 3511 674 29 0,1920 0,0430 0,0295
    15 Severna Mac 2077 570 23 0,2744 0,0404 0,0286
    16 mainland China 1427648 82655 3335 0,0579 0,0403 0,0403
    17 Bulgaria 7000 549 22 0,0784 0,0401 0,0252
    18 Andora 76 525 21 6,9079 0,0400 0,0280
    19 Denmark 5823 4681 187 0,8039 0,0399 0,0363
    20 Swiss 8570 21657 765 2,5271 0,0353 0,0285
    21 Ireland 6573 5364 174 0,8161 0,0324 0,0255
    22 USA 328240 368196 10986 1,1217 0,0298 0,0247
    23 Slovenia 2100 1021 30 0,4862 0,0294 0,0190
    24 Ukraine 42031 1319 38 0,0314 0,0288 0,0244
    25 Portugal 10277 11730 311 1,1414 0,0265 0,0231
    Last edited by Yetos; 07-04-20 at 07:15.

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    If someone wants Data of daily reports to WHO as Countries send them
    They can be found here.

    EU has some sites under ECDC service and Supervision that might help with your search and statistics

    https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/def...ion-worldwide-

    https://data.europa.eu/euodp/en/data...ronavirus-data

    https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/public...ases-worldwide



    And here are the data about Influenza, which this winter killed more in my country than Coronavirus (until now)

    https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/public...-13-march-2020
    Last edited by Yetos; 07-04-20 at 07:28.

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    Coronavirus and Tuberculosis

    https://www.biznews.com/inside-covid...g-vaccine-nyit


    If it is true and correct, then could explain a lot,
    like why is high on black Americans but not in Africa,
    why Italy has high mortality and Japan has not
    etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Coronavirus and Tuberculosis

    https://www.biznews.com/inside-covid...g-vaccine-nyit


    If it is true and correct, then could explain a lot,
    like why is high on black Americans but not in Africa,
    why Italy has high mortality and Japan has not
    etc
    From Wiki:

    • France: The BCG was mandatory for school children between 1950 and 2007,[39][40] and for healthcare professionals between 1947 and 2010. Vaccination is still available for French healthcare professionals and social workers but is now decided on a case-by-case basis.[41]
    • Italy: BCG mass vaccination has never been performed in Italy. [37]
    • Ireland: The BCG was mandatory for all children until 2015 when it was discontinued as a result of global supplie issues.[42]
    • Germany: Mass vaccination was performed from 1961 until 1998. [43]
    • Norway: In Norway the BCG vaccine was mandatory from 1947 to 1995. It is still available and recommended for high-risk groups.[44]
    • Spain: Past national BCG vaccination policy for all from 1965 to 1981. [37]
    • United Kingdom: The UK introduced universal BCG immunization in 1953. From then until July 2005, UK policy was to immunize all school children aged between 10 and 14 years of age, and all neonates born into high-risk groups. The injection was given only once during an individual's lifetime (as there is no evidence of additional protection from more than one vaccination). BCG was also given to protect people who had been exposed to tuberculosis. The peak of tuberculosis incidence is in adolescence and early adulthood, and an MRC trial showed efficacy lasted a maximum of 15 years.[45] Routine immunization with BCG for all school children was scrapped in July 2005 because of falling cost-effectiveness: whereas in 1953, 94 children would have to be immunized to prevent one case of TB, by 1988, the annual incidence of TB in the UK had fallen so much, 12,000 children would have to be immunized to prevent a single case of TB.[46] The vaccine is still given to at risk healthcare professionals.[47]
    • Former Soviet Union. BCG was given regularly throughout life.[citation needed]
    • Bulgaria: The BCG vaccine is mandatory in children since 1951.[48]
    • Hungary: The BCG vaccination is mandatory for most newborns since 1954.[49S


    Netherlands isn't listed, but they also don't vaccinate for it, along with Italy and the U.S.

    From what I can see, if this is correct, why does Spain have so many cases, Britain?

    These Italian researchers recommended that children be vaccinated, but from what I can see the recommendation was not followed.

    "https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/.../1/24.full.pdf

    It certainly has to be investigated, but the effect may be minor.

    Fwiw, I got the pneumonia vaccine because I'm prone to it, and I thought perhaps it might have been helpful,but who knows?

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    Young civil guards set up field hospitals.

    https://cronicaglobal.elespanol.com/...Cb0n3Kob3YflNw

    Some regions paralyze these much-needed hospitals recommended by the OMS in the face of this terrible pandemic that threatens the survival of the human species.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Sorry my man but it's not a conspiracy post unless the name Soros is in it .
    Ha, eh sure, the post I quoted just struck me as something you'd find on some conspiracy theory article is all. I really don't understand the anti-vaccine logic...

    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Is Sweden doing the right thing in fighting the coronavirus epidemic? They have not shut down their country, they have not isolated the young they have only isolated their vulnerable populations. Their ICU's numbers are declining:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/sweden-fo...103003618.html

    I always thought that the isolation should have been imposed on people that actually came from abroad in the beginning of the epidemic and the old and the frail. After that I thought that it was useless.
    Didn't Singapore also not lockdown? They have according to Worldometer, 1,375 cases and 6 deaths. Sweden's cases are increasing, albeit not as rapidly as other countries.

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    "In this Lombardian town, 2,000 people (1/3 of the population) were tested and, according to this report, 13%-14% of the population has developed immunity for COVID-19. It would be great to have data on those people, especially their age, as well as on the people who died."

    Not high enough, if, as per the other study, 60%+ are infected.

    "Niall Ferguson's latest column (paywall) notes that on Jan. 23 the Chinese cut off Hubei province from the rest of China -- but they didn't cut it off from the rest of the world. Direct flights out continued. Trump's travel restrictions kicked in only a week later."

    "Starting tomorrow all Starbuck's employees in U.S. must wear face coverings. " It should be mandated for grocery store workers as well.



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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Ha, eh sure, the post I quoted just struck me as something you'd find on some conspiracy theory article is all. I really don't understand the anti-vaccine logic...



    Didn't Singapore also not lockdown? They have according to Worldometer, 1,375 cases and 6 deaths. Sweden's cases are increasing, albeit not as rapidly as other countries.
    Singapore has now gone on lockdown, because of "unexplained" community transmission.

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    "While the focus of the COVID-19 pandemic has been on respiratory problems and securing enough ventilators, doctors on the front lines are grappling with a new medical mystery.In addition to lung damage, many COVID-19 patients are also developing heart problems — and dying of cardiac arrest.
    As more data comes in from China and Italy, as well as Washington state and New York, more cardiac experts are coming to believe the COVID-19 virus can infect the heart muscle. An initial study found cardiac damage in as many as 1 in 5 patients, leading to heart failure and death even among those who show no signs of respiratory distress."

    https://khn.org/news/mysterious-hear...d-19-patients/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    From Wiki:

    • France: The BCG was mandatory for school children between 1950 and 2007,[39][40] and for healthcare professionals between 1947 and 2010. Vaccination is still available for French healthcare professionals and social workers but is now decided on a case-by-case basis.[41]
    • Italy: BCG mass vaccination has never been performed in Italy. [37]
    • Ireland: The BCG was mandatory for all children until 2015 when it was discontinued as a result of global supplie issues.[42]
    • Germany: Mass vaccination was performed from 1961 until 1998. [43]
    • Norway: In Norway the BCG vaccine was mandatory from 1947 to 1995. It is still available and recommended for high-risk groups.[44]
    • Spain: Past national BCG vaccination policy for all from 1965 to 1981. [37]
    • United Kingdom: The UK introduced universal BCG immunization in 1953. From then until July 2005, UK policy was to immunize all school children aged between 10 and 14 years of age, and all neonates born into high-risk groups. The injection was given only once during an individual's lifetime (as there is no evidence of additional protection from more than one vaccination). BCG was also given to protect people who had been exposed to tuberculosis. The peak of tuberculosis incidence is in adolescence and early adulthood, and an MRC trial showed efficacy lasted a maximum of 15 years.[45] Routine immunization with BCG for all school children was scrapped in July 2005 because of falling cost-effectiveness: whereas in 1953, 94 children would have to be immunized to prevent one case of TB, by 1988, the annual incidence of TB in the UK had fallen so much, 12,000 children would have to be immunized to prevent a single case of TB.[46] The vaccine is still given to at risk healthcare professionals.[47]
    • Former Soviet Union. BCG was given regularly throughout life.[citation needed]
    • Bulgaria: The BCG vaccine is mandatory in children since 1951.[48]
    • Hungary: The BCG vaccination is mandatory for most newborns since 1954.[49S


    Netherlands isn't listed, but they also don't vaccinate for it, along with Italy and the U.S.

    From what I can see, if this is correct, why does Spain have so many cases, Britain?

    These Italian researchers recommended that children be vaccinated, but from what I can see the recommendation was not followed.

    "https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/.../1/24.full.pdf

    It certainly has to be investigated, but the effect may be minor.

    Fwiw, I got the pneumonia vaccine because I'm prone to it, and I thought perhaps it might have been helpful,but who knows?
    Does the BCG vaccine confer lifetime immunity or do you need "booster" shots?

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    "Swedish Prime Minister Tells Country to Prepare for ‘Thousands’ of Deaths as Pressure Builds to Abandon Lax Coronavirus Response"



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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Ha, eh sure, the post I quoted just struck me as something you'd find on some conspiracy theory article is all. I really don't understand the anti-vaccine logic...
    Gates is the new Soros. He advocates that our planet is overpopulated and is willing to donate billions for a cover-19 vaccine so the conspiracy theorists connect the two and think he's about to use the vaccine to reduce the worlds population. Oh the mind of a conspiracy theorist...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Gates is the new Soros. He advocates that our planet is overpopulated and is willing to donate billions for a cover-19 vaccine so the conspiracy theorists connect the two and think he's about to use the vaccine to reduce the worlds population. Oh the mind of a conspiracy theorist...
    hm,

    He will earn trillions,
    before ten-15 years he bought genetical mutated plants, and enough space of land in Africa,
    If food raise its price as expected, trillions is nothing,

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Does the BCG vaccine confer lifetime immunity or do you need "booster" shots?
    in Greece we do 2 the least tests until 20

    basic vacination is about 4 years old,
    started around 1930, after 1950's all population was forcced to do
    then by test at 10-12 at schools
    and males at the army test again

    we called it Μαντου,
    a test on hand, if nothing you were immune,
    if a brown or black colour appeared, they vacinate you

    interesting is data of tuberculosis in Greece,
    the time 2002-2018 the tubercolosis cases were about 520,
    from them 49% were Greeks, 50% were immigrants workers, comparing the population that Greeks and legal immigrants analogy is about 9700/2000

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Does the BCG vaccine confer lifetime immunity or do you need "booster" shots?
    I saw a bunch of papers saying boosters don't change the outcomes, and also that it's most effective in children; not as effective in adults.

    I didn't read the whole papers for the nuances, however.

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