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Thread: New Coronavirus in China

  1. #1901
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I honestly don't get it.

    Make mask wearing mandatory and prohibit inside dining.
    So what do we say about Sweden? It apparently did nothing yet its death rate is half that of New York state (561 vs. 1676 per million).

    BTW, I'm happy to follow whatever rules our elected leaders come up with (we elected them to do that). I practice social distancing, wear a mask in public, and pretty much isolate myself here in the suburbs of San Diego. I just wonder how much we really know about this virus.

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    I thought the Swedish leaders were saying they didn't have to pass laws because their people just followed the directives voluntarily.

    Also, my personal opinion is that certain "continental" groups are more susceptible than others. It has been horrific among South Asians and African Americans, and among Hispanics to some extent as well.

    Like everything else my bet would be some combination of life-style and genetics.


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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    So what do we say about Sweden? It apparently did nothing yet its death rate is half that of New York state (561 vs. 1676 per million).

    BTW, I'm happy to follow whatever rules our elected leaders come up with (we elected them to do that). I practice social distancing, wear a mask in public, and pretty much isolate myself here in the suburbs of San Diego. I just wonder how much we really know about this virus.
    New York is really an outlier... but that doesn't make Sweden a good example, either. It has the 7th largest death rate by Covid-19 in the world (and that's including tiny city-states like San Marino and Andorra), for God's sake! And, unlike New York and other similar places, like São Paulo, City of Mexico and Santiago, Sweden has no huge and extremely dense metropolis or even megalopolis, it's very underpopulated in fact and has huge advantages like a high quality public health system for nearly everyone, a more evenly distributed population (so less agglomerations of people = less risk of one infected person spreading the virus to hundreds of people successively), a culture characterized by social distancing and not conducive at all to frequent and close bonding between unrelated people (totally unlike Italy, Spain, Brazil, Peru and, I'd say, at least parts of the USA), a shockingly high percentage of people (including old people) that live alone.... AND DESPITE ALL THOSE FAVORABLE CIRCUMSTANCES for the pandemic to be under control, it still managed to screw it up really badly. Just compare it to culturally and socioeconomically similar countries: Denmark, Norway, Finland, Germany, Iceland. Sweden is much worse than all of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I thought the Swedish leaders were saying they didn't have to pass laws because their people just followed the directives voluntarily.

    Also, my personal opinion is that certain "continental" groups are more susceptible than others. It has been horrific among South Asians and African Americans, and among Hispanics to some extent as well.

    Like everything else my bet would be some combination of life-style and genetics.
    Genetics must play a role. Of course not necessarily more than social conditions and lifestyle, but it makes a difference. In Brazil it's been noticed that Amerindians have a much higher likelihood to die. Of course you could say that's because 100% or mixed but still overwhelmingly Amerindian people usually live in small towns and rural villages far from the best hospitals, but it's also striking that more of them seem to get very serious symptoms than other people who aren't mostly Amerindian in ancestry. Perhaps it's no coincidence that the North of Brazil and Ceará (Northeastern Brazil) are simultaneously the places with the highest death rates by Covid-19 (despite a very hot climate) and also the places with the highest Amerindian ancestry in the entire country.

    Besides, I also read a detailed study on the demographics of critical cases of Covid-19 patients in Brazil until May 18th. We all already knew Brazilian blacks and pardos (mixed-race) tend to die in higher proportions than the whites (no surprise here, most poors are blacks or pardos), but I noticed something else that's truly surprising: black patients also died in higher proportions in most age cohorts even when you adjusted for scholarly achievement, which tends to correlate pretty well with family income and quality of life. Strange. Maybe another instance of genetics playing some role? That'd be weird considering that most of Africa is faring pretty well in this pandemic.

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    In the "Are These People Crazy Category":

    A Texas hospital says it will send Covid patients who are "too sick" home to die. Wait a minute. Didn't China do the same thing in the beginning and that spread it to all the family members? Isn't the idea to put them in special "Covid Facilities"?

    Who the hell is making these decisions?

    https://www.star-telegram.com/news/c...244443257.html


    Older children spread the virus as much as adults do:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/h...n-schools.html


    Spain is experiencing a second wave: Cataluna is closing all discos; Britain and Norway are contemplating barring travel from it. As of today, anyone who tries to enter Britain who has been in Spain has to go into quarantine for two weeks.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/ushome/index.html

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I think genetics is certainly a factor as to why minority groups may be disproportionaly affected by covid 19. Here are also some other interesting facts, that may be contributing:


    • African American women have the highest rates of obesity or being overweight compared to other groups in the United States. About 4 out of 5 African American women are overweight or obese.
    • In 2018, non-Hispanic blacks were 1.3 times more likely to be obese as compared to non-Hispanic whites.
    • In 2018, African American women were 50 percent more likely to be obese than non-Hispanic white women.
    • From 2013-2016, non-Hispanic black females were 2.3 times more likely to be overweight as compared to non-Hispanic white females.
    • People who are overweight are more likely to suffer from high blood pressure, high levels of blood fats, diabetes and LDL cholesterol – all risk factors for heart disease and stroke.1
    • In 2018, African Americans were 20 percent less likely to engage in active physical activity as compared to non-Hispanic whites.


    https://www.minorityhealth.hhs.gov/o...lvl=4&lvlid=25

    The last one kind of suprised me, considering that African-Americans excel in professional sports.

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    I definitely think it's a factor. The only people from my son's place of work who have gotten really ill and died are all South Asian of some sort.

    I still don't understand the numbers for Belgium. I remember the charts showing the spread and a lot of them started in Belgium and it seems like it got hit early without anyone knowing.

    15/17 Global death rates march onward, sadly. Latin America is getting hit hard. Total deaths per millionBelgium 846United Kingdom 670Spain 608Italy 580Sweden 561France 462Chile 456United States 433Peru 418Brazil 389Netherlands 358Ireland 355Mexico 319Ecuador 307

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    The Covid-19 regrowth map in Spain

    Sprouts
    not a second wave
    At the moment

    However, the Government assures that Spain is in a scenario of control of the epidemic and that the outbreaks "were planned" and have been detected "early". Simón, on the other hand, maintained that he does not believe that "in Spain we live a second wave, although it is always difficult to say", nor that "transmission is uncontrolled", except "perhaps in very specific areas", where " courageous measures are being implemented "to redirect the situation.

    CATALONIA
    It is one of the communities most affected by sprouts

    In the last 24 hours, Catalonia has reported 886 new coronavirus infections, compared to more than 1,400 cases the previous day, with a total of 91,337 cases accumulated since the start of the pandemic, and the figures provided by funeral companies do not record new ones. No fatalities due to coronavirus in the last hours.

    https://www.elmundo.es/ciencia-y-sal...6308b461d.html


    pd: For any subject in Spain the last thing is to read the British press

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    The coordinator of the Center for Health Alerts and Emergencies, Fernando Simón, thanked Belgium and the United Kingdom for discouraging trips to Spain, since it reduces the risk of imported coronavirus cases, although he acknowledged that for the tourism sector it is a serious problem that tourists decrease.



    https://www.heraldo.es/noticias/naci...n-1388174.html

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Two coronavirus vaccines begin the last phase of testing: 30,000-person trials

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/07/27/moderna-nih-launch-30000-person-trial-coronavirus-vaccine/

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    https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/covid-19-coronavirus-infographic-datapack/

    I've been to church a few times since the prohibition has been lifted. Everyone sits 6-feet away from one another, and wears a mask. Also, singing is prohibited, because it can spread droplets. Only the organist is allowed to sing with a mask on. We wave to each other, instead of shaking hands in a sign of peace. However, we didn't line up to receive communion, to keep social distancing. Some foolish person lowered their mask, and expected the priest to put the bread in their mouth. But he placed it in their hand instead. But even before the pandemic, I never drank the wine, for fear of germs.

    I stopped putting my fingers in the holy water too. Even the priest recommended we avoid it.

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    I avoid any church where there are images of Saint Teresa of Calcutta or the current pope, they cause herpes, she in particular. The evil one roams freely even in temples unlike other times.

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    My sister-in-law is head of infectious diseases here, part of the BJC health system in St. Louis. She said that a large part of the deaths are from including those deaths that are not verified from CV. Also that each time a person tests positive, it's counted as a covid case. So if you are positive and test later once or twice, you are counted as 2 or more cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheal View Post
    My sister-in-law is head of infectious diseases here, part of the BJC health system in St. Louis. She said that a large part of the deaths are from including those deaths that are not verified from CV. Also that each time a person tests positive, it's counted as a covid case. So if you are positive and test later once or twice, you are counted as 2 or more cases.
    Of all the stupidity. They don't keep track of the names on the computer? Is it more of these complicated confidentiality rules nonsense?

    With all these quick tests, they can't test these terribly ill people to see if they actually have Covid?

    How are policy makers supposed to make good decisions with such shoddy data?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    What happened on the Diamond Princess: transmission by small aerosol droplets that hung in the air.

    So there you go. MASKS are the answer and the more efficient the better.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/30/h...s-aerosol.html


    Oh, and another thing about which we were right: children do spread the virus, and carry large loads of it, as large as adults; it's just that if they're very young they don't get sick, or as sick.

    So, the ones who will be at risk if schools open will be the teachers, administrators, staff etc. High school students will also become ill, but most will recover.

    I'm fully aware that unless children go back to school the economy will not come back. For elementary school, when they really need guidance, and when parents really need them in a supervised setting, maybe they can reconfigure classrooms, provide "real" masks for the adults etc.

    However, for middle school and high school,I would not send my children to school. They'll bring it home to everyone else. There's no need for a thirteen year old to require a babysitter. Christ, I was paying all the family bills, going to school conferences for my brother with my mother, and doing all the "business" phone calls for my family when I was thirteen because my father was always working and my mother hadn't yet picked up English. I also can't remember my parents even looking at my homework. If these teenagers aren't doing what they should be doing it's time for the parents to step in and assert the discipline they've neglected so far. If necessary, pick a few families whom you know are social distancing, and pay the most competent parent to supervise the internet work of six or seven or ten of them in someone's living room.

    The government should be putting these programs and these suggestions out there so people can prepare.

    The poor children who will suffer will be the ones in underclass urban and rural areas where they have no computers and no one to help them. They'll just fall further behind.

    See:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/h...n-schools.html

    I knew that was part of the reason Italy and Spain were hit hard and Scandinavia wasn't. It's not going to be as bad where the majority of elderly people live alone and rarely see their grandchildren.

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    I just got my Covid-19 test, and thankfully I'm negative. This time it was a nose swab, and the results came in 20 minutes.

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    Repetead nnnnnnnnn

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    Through the eye lashes I guess that nations are coping better with corona when there is honest not too much biased information from the government (partly scientific based), when there is trust in the people to take responsibility for themselves (so not too much top down measures) with Sweden as the most prominent example. The government (national, regional, local) have to work together to response fast to outbreaks. And last but not least when there is a decent amount of welfare state (so no need when you are sick to go to work and spread the virus). The better countries are doing in this respect the better they deal with corona!

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    I wouldn’t necessarily take Sweden as an exemplar. I thought I saw a graph indicating they did the worst of all the Scandinavian countries, and I saw a video clip of the leader of their effort where he said they made a major mistake in not imposing restrictions “from the top down”. I guess the Swedes weren’t quite as responsible as he thought they’d be. Plus they hardly were in the eye of the storm with people coming from all over, like, say, England.

    Speaking of the eye of the storm...

    What the heck happened in Belgium? They have the worst stats in Europe. Are they going to blame their immigrants? France is awash with immigrants and did better if not great. If I were a citizen I’d be demanding answers.

    Also, I think we have to be careful not to take such a Eurocentric approach when reaching conclusions. China virtually eradicated it totally top down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I wouldn’t necessarily take Sweden as an exemplar. I thought I saw a graph indicating they did the worst of all the Scandinavian countries, and I saw a video clip of the leader of their effort where he said they made a major mistake in not imposing restrictions “from the top down”. I guess the Swedes weren’t quite as responsible as he thought they’d be. Plus they hardly were in the eye of the storm with people coming from all over, like, say, England.

    Speaking of the eye of the storm...

    What the heck happened in Belgium? They have the worst stats in Europe. Are they going to blame their immigrants? France is awash with immigrants and did better if not great. If I were a citizen I’d be demanding answers.

    Also, I think we have to be careful not to take such a Eurocentric approach when reaching conclusions. China virtually eradicated it totally top down.
    Yes I like the Euro approach more than the Chinese... Is that permitted? I think that ukase style doesn't work in mature democracies. Of course it makes a lot difference if the government is responsive and if there is a national, regional, local cooperation.

    Belgium is in this respect a kind of 'oddity' even admitted by the Belgians themselves, they have because of the Walloon-Flandres controversy a long tradition of the permanent government in crisis....I think that's a factor...

    The US is getting it the toughest, I think. No or worse cooperation between governments. Information about Corona by the US president on twitter is even blocked by twitter because of disinformation (my goodness here in Europe the prime minister of the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium or the Bundeskanzler in Germany would be nailed in parlement for it, checks and balances!!!).

    But most of all the healthcare care and social welfare system is in the US on a low level, that's spills lots of lives. Of course this will be denied by the dear US members on EUpedia, because the Euro-style welfare is commie like or whatever such like comments. But the sober conclusion that people in NW Europe have a better acces to health care and when they don't need to go to work (because of lock down or even worse when they are sick) they get paid, makes in the case of corona the basic difference. Simple when someone is sick has corona but doesn't get a decent payment he or she is more or less forced to work. He or she is going to hide the sickness much easier etc. That's the US situation.

    But of course all Euro style softy talk ;) It isn't because in the long run when the general public health is the best it is also the most productive in economic sense...
    Last edited by Northener; 07-08-20 at 17:35.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    How typical, Northener: ignore all the mistakes of fact I pointed out in your post and go into an anti-US rant. Your analysis was flawed and illogical. Period. Sweden did not do a good job; not all the western democracies with socialized medicine did a good job, among them Belgium.

    Also, I didn’t, btw, say that I approved of China’s methods. Please don’t put words in my mouth. I was saying that if you’d look outside of Western Europe you would see it’s false to say that bottom up methods always work better at eradicating a pandemic. Also, where the government tried to make it voluntary, I.e. Sweden, the people did not fall inline, and that comes from the remarks of their own leaders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    "Perfectly Healthy" teen according to the headline?

    Look, it is sad that he died, but this kid did not look perfectly healthy, he looks to be obese.

    https://people.com/health/16-year-old-dies-suddenly-from-covid-19/



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think genetics is certainly a factor as to why minority groups may be disproportionaly affected by covid 19. Here are also some other interesting facts, that may be contributing:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post

    • African American women have the highest rates of obesity or being overweight compared to other groups in the United States. About 4 out of 5 African American women are overweight or obese.
    • In 2018, non-Hispanic blacks were 1.3 times more likely to be obese as compared to non-Hispanic whites.
    • In 2018, African American women were 50 percent more likely to be obese than non-Hispanic white women.
    • From 2013-2016, non-Hispanic black females were 2.3 times more likely to be overweight as compared to non-Hispanic white females.
    • People who are overweight are more likely to suffer from high blood pressure, high levels of blood fats, diabetes and LDL cholesterol – all risk factors for heart disease and stroke.1
    • In 2018, African Americans were 20 percent less likely to engage in active physical activity as compared to non-Hispanic whites.


    https://www.minorityhealth.hhs.gov/o...lvl=4&lvlid=25

    The last one kind of suprised me, considering that African-Americans excel in professional sports.


    Below is from a new finding:


    Forty-two percent of the 208 children in the CDC analysis had at least one underlying condition, usually obesity.

    "Childhood obesity affects almost 1 in 5 U.S. children," the CDC authors wrote, "and is more prevalent in Black and Hispanic children."

    "There's something about obesity that causes an underlying inflammatory state that we don't understand that much about," said Dr. Josh Denson, a pulmonary medicine and critical care physician at the Tulane Medical Center in New Orleans. Denson treats severely ill adult COVID-19 patients, and has recently published research on the link between the coronavirus and obesity in the African American population.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/wel...rtan-dhp-feeds


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How typical, Northener: ignore all the mistakes of fact I pointed out in your post and go into an anti-US rant. Your analysis was flawed and illogical. Period. Sweden did not do a good job; not all the western democracies with socialized medicine did a good job, among them Belgium.

    Also, I didn’t, btw, say that I approved of China’s methods. Please don’t put words in my mouth. I was saying that if you’d look outside of Western Europe you would see it’s false to say that bottom up methods always work better at eradicating a pandemic. Also, where the government tried to make it voluntary, I.e. Sweden, the people did not fall inline, and that comes from the remarks of their own leaders.
    The last one I agree with you, but as such the Chinese methods aren't interesting in battling corona (IMO). Why? Because I can imagine things that work in a totality regime that are very effective against things like corona. But the remedy is even worse than the disease. The patient is better but has then becomes a prisoner. So I restrict it to the so called 'free' world. I admit that is a bubble but a chosen one.

    May be a country like Belgium does it beter in battling corona than Sweden. In strict sense. But taken in account that the Swedish society didn't knew a lock down and Belgium did I guess the overall conclusion is that Sweden rolls one knows a relative higher dead rate, but it has not lead to a outbreak. So they managed to keep on rolling, without a massive break out. And the figures in Belgium are rising faster now than in Sweden.....

    And I'm not anti US. But when I see how the US is coping with corona you see a country in severe decline, And I consider that as a loss, because the US is IMO a mainstay in the 'free' world. But corona has highlighted the weaknesses in the US. I sincerely regret that.

    PS and I am a patriotic Dutchman? No, because the Dutch did it quite good in battling corona, but I see a little 'searching' for the right attitude government right know, no good sign....
    Last edited by Northener; 08-08-20 at 15:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post





    Below is from a new finding:



    You must not forget that things like obese is not only related to genetics, but have a very big life style/ social-economic factor too.... The US is for the most part still a segregated society black people still live more than average in poor area's.
    Here comes much together: low income, more flex jobs, bad kind of nutricion etc. So extra vulnerable for the corona spread. You seem to neglect that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    The last one I agree with you, but as such the Chinese methods aren't interesting in battling corona (IMO). Why? Because I can imagine thing that work in a totality regime that are very effective against things like corona. But the remedy is even worse than the disease. The patient is better but has then becomes a prisoner. So I restrict it to the so called 'free' world. I admit that is a bubble but a chosen one.

    May be a country like Belgium does it beter in battling corona than Sweden. In strict sense. But taken in account that the Swedish society didn't knew a lock down and Belgium did I guess the overall conclusion is that Sweden rolls one knows a relative higher dead rate, but it has not lead to a outbreak. So they managed to keep on rolling, without a massive break out. And the figures in Belgium are rising faster now than in Sweden.....

    And I'm not anti US. But when I see how the US is coping with corona you see a country in severe decline, And I consider that as a loss, because the US is IMO a mainstay in the 'free' world. But corona has highlighted the weaknesses in the US. I sincerely regret that.

    PS and I am a patriotic Dutchman? No, because the Dutch did it quite good in battling corona, but I see a little 'searching' fro the right attitude government right know, no good sign....
    ... no US decline, ... In the USA there are 50 Governors who choose how to best fight Covid-19, the Feds gives Guidelines and Logistics Support.

    My State has been fantastic at fighting Covid-19, the latest numbers are excellent.

    50 voices and methods internally, but only one Federal Executive Voice with Power in International Affairs.

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