Health New Coronavirus in China

[Dagne]

Coronavirus outbreak in a South Korea call center. Desks were packed into an open space. There was an airconditioning system. Who knows when the filters were changed.

Haven't seen this in movie theaters, so many it's not just close contact, but the fact they were talking all day. People talk in airplanes too so not good news for airlines, trains, buses.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/8/20-1274_article

This is really interesting!
The infected people in the call centre where seated like that (marked by blue):

I think it must related to air conditioning - otherwise, it is impossible to see a pattern - it did not spread around one person which it should if the virus was spreading by "droplets method", besides it virus attack rate among other people in the building - is considerably less - 8,5%, compared to 43,5% among call centre employees. If employees of one side of the call centre were counted, the attack rate must be been even higher - among 137 desks (we don't know if they all were filled by people) 80 persons got infected, so the attack rate must be at least 58%.

This is the extract from the study:

[FONT=&quot]We tested 1,143 people for COVID-19 - 922 employees, 201 residents, and 20 visitors.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]We identified 97 confirmed COVID-19 case-patients in building X, indicating an attack rate of 8.5%. However, if we restrict our results the 11th floor, the attack rate was as high as 43.5%.
This outbreak shows alarmingly that severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) can be exceptionally contagious in crowded office settings such as a call center. The magnitude of the outbreak illustrates how a high-density work environment can become a high-risk site for the spread of COVID-19 and potentially a source of further transmission. Nearly all the case-patients were on one side of the building on 11th floor. Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus, the predecessor of SARS-CoV-2, exhibited multiple superspreading events in 2002 and 2003, in which a few persons infected others, resulting in many secondary cases. Despite considerable interaction between workers on different floors of building X in the elevators and lobby, spread of COVID-19 was limited almost exclusively to the 11th floor, which indicates that the duration of interaction (or contact) was likely the main facilitator for further spreading of SARS-CoV-2.[/FONT]

 

[bigsnake49]

This is really interesting!
The infected people in the call centre where seated like that (marked by blue):

I think it must related to air conditioning - otherwise, it is impossible to see a pattern - it did not spread around one person which it should if the virus was spreading by "droplets method", besides it virus attack rate among other people in the building - is considerably less - 8,5%, compared to 43,5% among call centre employees. If employees of one side of the call centre were counted, the attack rate must be been even higher - among 137 desks (we don't know if they all were filled by people) 80 persons got infected, so the attack rate must be at least 58%.

This is the extract from the study:

We tested 1,143 people for COVID-19 - 922 employees, 201 residents, and 20 visitors.
We identified 97 confirmed COVID-19 case-patients in building X, indicating an attack rate of 8.5%. However, if we restrict our results the 11th floor, the attack rate was as high as 43.5%.
This outbreak shows alarmingly that severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) can be exceptionally contagious in crowded office settings such as a call center. The magnitude of the outbreak illustrates how a high-density work environment can become a high-risk site for the spread of COVID-19 and potentially a source of further transmission. Nearly all the case-patients were on one side of the building on 11th floor. Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus, the predecessor of SARS-CoV-2, exhibited multiple superspreading events in 2002 and 2003, in which a few persons infected others, resulting in many secondary cases. Despite considerable interaction between workers on different floors of building X in the elevators and lobby, spread of COVID-19 was limited almost exclusively to the 11th floor, which indicates that the duration of interaction (or contact) was likely the main facilitator for further spreading of SARS-CoV-2.

Low partitions open floor plan cubicle culture is a Petri dish. Those people should work from home until the danger is gone. They probably need the far-UVC lamps overhead and in the air-conditioning ducts (see post #1509).

 

[Dagne]

This is what I find about Duct Cleaning standards on Wiki

Duct cleaning

The position of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is that "If no one in your household suffers from allergies or unexplained symptoms or illnesses and if, after a visual inspection of the inside of the ducts, you see no indication that your air ducts are contaminated with large deposits of dust or mold (no musty odor or visible mold growth), having your air ducts cleaned is probably unnecessary."^[4] A thorough duct cleaning done by a professional duct cleaner will remove dust, cobwebs, debris, pet hair, rodent hair and droppings, paper clips, calcium deposits, children's toys, and whatever else might collect inside. Ideally, the interior surface will be shiny and bright after cleaning. Insulated fiber glass duct liner and duct board can be cleaned with special non-metallic bristles. Fabric ducting can be washed or vacuumed using typical household appliances.
Duct cleaning may be personally justifiable for that very reason: occupants may not want to have their house air circulated through a duct passage that is not as clean as the rest of the house. However, duct cleaning will not usually change the quality of the breathing air, nor will it significantly affect airflows or heating costs.


Sings when you need to clean your ventilation:

Signs and indicators

• Sweeping and dusting the furniture needs to be done more than usual.
• After cleaning, there is still left over visible dust floating around the house.
• After or during sleep, occupants experience headaches, nasal congestion, or other sinus problems.
• Rooms in the house have little or no air flow coming from the vents.
• Occupants are constantly getting sick or are experiencing more allergies than usual.
• There is a musty or stale odor when turning on the furnace or air conditioner.
• Occupants are experiencing signs of sickness, e.g. fatigue, headache, sneezing, stuffy or running nose, irritability, nausea, dry or burning sensation in eyes, nose and throat.

Commercial inspection

In commercial settings, regular inspection of ductwork is recommended by several standards. One standard recommends inspecting supply ducts every 1–2 years, return ducts every 1–2 years, and air handling units annually.^[5] Another recommends visual inspection of internally lined ducts annually^[6] Duct cleaning should be based on the results of those inspections.
Inspections are typically visual, looking for water damage or biological growth.^[5][6][7] When visual inspection needs to be validated numerically, a vacuum test (VT) or deposit thickness test (DTT) can be performed. A duct with less than 0.75 mg/100m² is considered to be clean, per the NADCA standard.^[7] A Hong Kong standard lists surface deposit limits of 1g/m² for supply and return ducts and 6g/m² for exhaust ducts, or a maximum deposit thickness of 60 µm in supply and return ducts, and 180 µm for exhaust ducts.^[8] Another UK standard recommends ducts cleaning if measured bacterial content is more than 29 colony forming units (CFU) per 10 cm²; contamination is classified as "low" below 10 CFU/cm², "medium" at up to 20 CFU/cm², and "high" when measured above 20 CFU/cm².<sup>[9]


I am afraid this does not sound good to me at all - it is an open gate for SARS-2, unless really good standard (at least MERV-13) filters are used (below is a link which explains in more detail about filter standards).
Installing a better filter in your system may be challenging, because it is way above the standard requirements and most system are not fit to work with high density filters.

This is a discussion about filters which can catch coronavirus size particles:
https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/can-your-hvac-system-filter-out-coronavirus</sup>

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

Αναρωτιεμαι τι θελει να πει ο ποιητης,

I wonder what the poet wants to say to us,

I scratch my head,

ouf, I love maths, not literature :grin:

I am as well at ha-ha mode, just finish my lunch, "beef-techs" and salad.
Anyway, I mean -for the previous- that everything will go fine.
Works for all of "us".


At the geography we had the problem Yetos...
<< this is a planet to call China? -Really?>>,

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

Αναρωτιεμαι τι θελει να πει ο ποιητης,

I wonder what the poet wants to say to us,

I scratch my head,

ouf, I love maths, not literature :grin:

Sorry for the deraiment, guys.
(I suppose it was the lockdown repurcussion effects, therefore -accidentally- related to our theme. )

 

[Angela]

This is what I find about Duct Cleaning standards on Wiki

Duct cleaning

The position of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is that "If no one in your household suffers from allergies or unexplained symptoms or illnesses and if, after a visual inspection of the inside of the ducts, you see no indication that your air ducts are contaminated with large deposits of dust or mold (no musty odor or visible mold growth), having your air ducts cleaned is probably unnecessary."^[4] A thorough duct cleaning done by a professional duct cleaner will remove dust, cobwebs, debris, pet hair, rodent hair and droppings, paper clips, calcium deposits, children's toys, and whatever else might collect inside. Ideally, the interior surface will be shiny and bright after cleaning. Insulated fiber glass duct liner and duct board can be cleaned with special non-metallic bristles. Fabric ducting can be washed or vacuumed using typical household appliances.
Duct cleaning may be personally justifiable for that very reason: occupants may not want to have their house air circulated through a duct passage that is not as clean as the rest of the house. However, duct cleaning will not usually change the quality of the breathing air, nor will it significantly affect airflows or heating costs.


Sings when you need to clean your ventilation:

Signs and indicators

• Sweeping and dusting the furniture needs to be done more than usual.
• After cleaning, there is still left over visible dust floating around the house.
• After or during sleep, occupants experience headaches, nasal congestion, or other sinus problems.
• Rooms in the house have little or no air flow coming from the vents.
• Occupants are constantly getting sick or are experiencing more allergies than usual.
• There is a musty or stale odor when turning on the furnace or air conditioner.
• Occupants are experiencing signs of sickness, e.g. fatigue, headache, sneezing, stuffy or running nose, irritability, nausea, dry or burning sensation in eyes, nose and throat.

Commercial inspection

In commercial settings, regular inspection of ductwork is recommended by several standards. One standard recommends inspecting supply ducts every 1–2 years, return ducts every 1–2 years, and air handling units annually.^[5] Another recommends visual inspection of internally lined ducts annually^[6] Duct cleaning should be based on the results of those inspections.
Inspections are typically visual, looking for water damage or biological growth.^[5][6][7] When visual inspection needs to be validated numerically, a vacuum test (VT) or deposit thickness test (DTT) can be performed. A duct with less than 0.75 mg/100m² is considered to be clean, per the NADCA standard.^[7] A Hong Kong standard lists surface deposit limits of 1g/m² for supply and return ducts and 6g/m² for exhaust ducts, or a maximum deposit thickness of 60 µm in supply and return ducts, and 180 µm for exhaust ducts.^[8] Another UK standard recommends ducts cleaning if measured bacterial content is more than 29 colony forming units (CFU) per 10 cm²; contamination is classified as "low" below 10 CFU/cm², "medium" at up to 20 CFU/cm², and "high" when measured above 20 CFU/cm².<sup>[9]


I am afraid this does not sound good to me at all - it is an open gate for SARS-2, unless really good standard (at least MERV-13) filters are used (below is a link which explains in more detail about filter standards).
Installing a better filter in your system may be challenging, because it is way above the standard requirements and most system are not fit to work with high density filters.

This is a discussion about filters which can catch coronavirus size particles:
https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/can-your-hvac-system-filter-out-coronavirus</sup>

You'd have to replace all the ducts, which I can't see happening in homes, anyway.

I think Snake is onto something with the idea of UVC lamps in the ducts, perhaps. Less expensive?

 

[Angela]

Why Florida's outcome is better than expected?
https://www.vox.com/2020/4/24/21234641/florida-coronavirus-covid-19-stay-at-home

They didn't wait for the governor to tell them to social distance.

Fewer tourists because of fears concerning plane travel.

More single home ownership than in New York City, and no public transportation.

Temperature and humidity?


I don't know, though. My single family unit was in an eight story building; not that different from apartment living, except I owned it. There's a lot of that kind of housing at beach locations. Maybe it's not a big enough percentage of the whole? Are the heating and airconditioning ducts separate? I feel stupid that it never occurred to me to think about that? We still used the elevator going up, at least.

 

[bigsnake49]

Why Florida's outcome is better than expected?
https://www.vox.com/2020/4/24/21234641/florida-coronavirus-covid-19-stay-at-home

They didn't wait for the governor to tell them to social distance.

Fewer tourists because of fears concerning plane travel.

More single home ownership than in New York City, and no public transportation.

Temperature and humidity?


I don't know, though. My single family unit was in an eight story building; not that different from apartment living, except I owned it. There's a lot of that kind of housing at beach locations. Maybe it's not a big enough percentage of the whole? Are the heating and airconditioning ducts separate? I feel stupid that it never occurred to me to think about that? We still used the elevator going up, at least.

I think the single family home vs high rise has to play a role. Visits to grocery stores going down plays a role. People on the beach is a a lesser evil particularly if they are spaced out and there is not inter-family socializing. When I went walking today I saw about 8 high schoolers going to the beach. They were definitely not related to each other. That is my fear. Inter-family infections because people are tired of isolation. I think older people are staying away from each other but young people are starting not to. Now I'd rather have them socialize out on the beach rather than in somebody's house.

 

[bigsnake49]

Italian scientists have found coronavirus in/on pollution particles:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/study-finds-coronavirus-could-more-184528558.html

It might explain the rapid infection rate in Lombardia.

 

[Angela]

Italian scientists have found coronavirus in/on pollution particles:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/study-finds-coronavirus-could-more-184528558.html

It might explain the rapid infection rate in Lombardia.

Would that apply to Spain as well, and Belgium, for example?

Also, is it like fomites on surfaces where you might have snippets of the dna but not the entire chain and so it's not infectious?

I know the air pollution in eastern Europe is horrendous, so that can't be enough. I wonder what it is in Hong Kong and South Korea?

I guess my point is that it can't be one factor. It has to be a perfect storm scenario.

 

[bigsnake49]

Would that apply to Spain as well, and Belgium, for example?

Also, is it like fomites on surfaces where you might have snippets of the dna but not the entire chain and so it's not infectious?

I know the air pollution in eastern Europe is horrendous, so that can't be enough. I wonder what it is in Hong Kong and South Korea?

I guess my point is that it can't be one factor. It has to be a perfect storm scenario.

Here is an article that explains why Lombardia became the epicenter:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/26/how...deadliest-coronavirus-outbreak-in-europe.html

One of the reasons why is that Italy got infected earlier and with asymptomatic carriers. By the time symptomatic patients started showing pneumonia symptoms those symptoms got mistaken for just seasonal pneumonia patients. Lombardia is the center of the fashion industry so lots of back & forth between Lombardia (Milan) and China.

 

[nordicwarrior]

No subway system in Florida, also far less population density than NYC and Northern Italy. Not to mention most people in the Sunshine State drive their own vehicle vs. taking public buses.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Also someone on this thread mentioned Spencer Wells (of National Graphic Genome Project) and his opinions of Covid 19.

Those Eupedia members who have been here awhile may remember the many debates we had regarding Well's ideas of genetic histories especially how these concepts factored in the field of paternal haplogroups. (I did take pleasure in debunking some of Spencer's more outlandish claims... and soon after the interbreeding of Neanderthal with Sapien was firmly established... and then later Denisovan's mixing, Wells bought a bar in Texas and called it a day.) A brief recap-- Wells main theory was that mankind originated from Africa exclusively... and he had some side theories that had haplogroup R1b as the founding haplogroup of ancient Europe as well as R1b being THE Cro-Magnon group.

So I watched his recent Covid 19 interview on YouTube (on the Vance Crowe podcast) and while I agree with much of what Wells said, for old time's sake I must point out a few of his oopsies. Around minute 25 or 26, while discussing the Corona virus global impacts with Crowe, Wells ironically blasts his fellow Americans for ignoring STEM studies while taking English literature classes instead. (Dissing Americans seems to be a default of his unfortunately.) Wells then mentions his age (51 years old) and very shortly after states that he was born in 1961. We are currently in the month of April in 2020. Somebody has been fibbing about their age, and I caught it without an extensive background in science, technology, or higher mathematics!

Spencer also poo-pooed America's response to Covid while being holed up in a gated community in Indonesia. Not a great look if I say so myself. I kept waiting for his lecture on global warming and how this certainly would bring us more deadly viruses... I know he wanted to go there... but being that he had very recently led a private tour of international jet-setting travelers on a hopscotch journey all over the globe he "wisely" avoided stepping in this giant puddle of hypocrisy. Talk about a carbon footprint.

P.S. I almost forgot this nugget. The interviewer Crowe-- a young man who does seem to have a natural gift for gab, if not yet a seasoned grasp on how the world really works-- mentioned that he spent part of his career working with genetically modified crops and that he knew first hand how incredibly important these organisms were to mankind. Crowe then asked Wells how to better explain to the masses how crucial it would be to accept forced vaccination for the good of mankind because the world faced a similar situation with the initial introduction of GMO foods. The common folk weren't quite smart enough to understand such lofty ideas and they really, really need our help.

I am not joking, Crowe really asked this...

 

[Dagne]

People on the beach is a a lesser evil particularly if they are spaced out and there is not inter-family socializing. When I went walking today I saw about 8 high schoolers going to the beach. They were definitely not related to each other. That is my fear. Inter-family infections because people are tired of isolation. I think older people are staying away from each other but young people are starting not to. Now I'd rather have them socialize out on the beach rather than in somebody's house.

I agree very much, being outside, even in bigger groups is not that dangerous. According to Chinese study on early cases, out 7324 cases, only 2 case were passed in the open (the rest in transport or inside). So it turns, as it seems, that socialising on the beach is not that dangerous.

When the virus lessens, I think it would be wise to allow group meeting in the open first.
I dream how this virus could change the world for the better - for instance, schooling could take place in the open, open summer pavilions for studying could be designed. Similar open windows working space could be arranged too.

I loved it so much when in my school they would open big widows for the summer breeze to come and cool us down. That would immediately switch our attention to outsides instead of lesson materials, but this is the beauty of the moment.

There were only 12 new infections yesterday throughout the country, so quarantine measures are lessened. Among other, open air coffee places are allowed to open since today in Lithuania. They have to ensure, though, that tables are at least 2 meters apart, and at least 1 meter away from pedestrian pavements. Besides, they have to ensure that each table is occupied by two people or a group of one family only. Along with all the disinfections rules, this will be rather tricky to implement. The city renting squares and other open spaces for restaurants and cafes for free this year. Let's see if businesses are really willing to open. McDonalds drive-in has been flourishing during the time of quarantine. One Italian living in Lithuania (who is naturally a food connoisseur) is posting photos of long lines around McDonal and can't stop wondering how come people want to eat that so much.
I understand it, people want to go out, so when everything is closed, McDonal's stuff is well packed to take with you to nature...

I have been buying take out coffees with my friend while walking dogs several times per week during all quarantine time (gasoline stations is a good option for take out coffee)

 

[Dagne]

Would that apply to Spain as well, and Belgium, for example?

Also, is it like fomites on surfaces where you might have snippets of the dna but not the entire chain and so it's not infectious?

I know the air pollution in eastern Europe is horrendous, so that can't be enough. I wonder what it is in Hong Kong and South Korea?

I guess my point is that it can't be one factor. It has to be a perfect storm scenario.

I did not find a newer map but it seems that small particle pollution (which is the carrier for the virus) is the worst in Northern Italy

PM2.5 annual mean in 2015

https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/figures/pm2-5-annual-mean-in/pm2-5-annual-mean-in-2015



This is another map showing Belgium in epicentre of the PM2.5 pollution

Loss in statistical life expectancy that can be attributed to the identified anthropogenic contributions to PM2.5 (in months), for the emissions of the year 2000 (left panel), the current legislation case of the “Climate policy” scenario in 2020 (centre panel) and the maximum feasible reduction case for 2020 (right panel). Calculation results for the meteorological conditions of 1997. Provisional calculations based on generic assumptions on urban increments in PM2.5, awaiting City-Delta results.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...e-attributed-to-the-identified_fig1_230709494


Spain, however, is not the hot spot for PM2.5 pollution. So first, you have to have enough of virus spreaders inside (in transport) and then if you have bad quality air full of small particles, it is easier for the virus to spread (somehow, I don't really see if any country has so much virus that it could spread up above the clouds... most probably it is the same spread inside, only it is easier for virus to spread if the inside air is full of small particles)

 

[Yetos]

The sea, the beach, the river delta, and the sand,

Here in Greece, they do not fear so much the open pelago sea, neither the sea near beach,
they are afraid of the sand,
and offcourse the river delta which sometimes have water from treatment,

By what I hear and read, the biggest fear of most is standing on, or playing with sand, rather to swim in sea water
and many keep precaution if this summer must allow towels and size-long chair, and sun umbrellas etc etc

 

[Angela]

Here is an article that explains why Lombardia became the epicenter:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/26/how...deadliest-coronavirus-outbreak-in-europe.html

One of the reasons why is that Italy got infected earlier and with asymptomatic carriers. By the time symptomatic patients started showing pneumonia symptoms those symptoms got mistaken for just seasonal pneumonia patients. Lombardia is the center of the fashion industry so lots of back & forth between Lombardia (Milan) and China.

I've been saying since the beginning of this nightmare that for this many people in Northern Italy to suddenly and virtually all at once be experiencing severe symptoms it must have seeded much earlier than thought, perhaps among younger people, earlier than anyone was even aware that person to person transmission was possible. Sometimes I think even scientists lose their grasp of common sense.

That intuition was borne out by the research done by NEXT STRAIN, which I've mentioned a number of times. Being the first European country to close off flights from China on January 31st didn't help much because, as I've said repeatedly, it was already there. The first documented case is 1/29. Working backwards, Next Strain indicates that indeed in was perhaps already in Belgium by 1/8/2020 or even 1/7. (85% confidence, second choice is UK 7%)

Just for clarity, the contacts with China are not just because of the fashion trade. It also involves lots of agribusiness relationships and a large amount of tourism, even in the winter months.

https://nextstrain.org/ncov/europe

What Next Strain also shows is that Italy wasn't only hit by that strain from Hangzhow. These authors should take a close look at the data on Next Strain. It was hit by strains introduced by other European countries, predominantly the UK and Belgium.

So, this as well as other parts of the article are, in my opinion, simplistic.

The issue of small particle air pollution, per the data shown by Dagne, may also be part of the making of this perfect storm. I give it more credence than I have to date since this is also an issue for Belgium, which has the highest per capita death rate in Europe. However, that wouldn't apply to Spain, which is even more hard hit than Northern Italy.

As for closing later than they should, I agree. That it was because the industrial and commercial base applied a lot of pressure I'm certainly willing to believe, although we have no proof. However, Conte is also right. Italy has a virtual federal system, largely because certain regions demanded and got a lot of autonomy. At one point Lombardia and Veneto threatened to secede. Well, they wanted a lot of autonomy; they got it. If Lombardia used it badly they should look at their own Lega politicians, and see with whom they were in bed.

I do understand and sympathize with these doctors; they had to deal with it; many of their colleagues, dozens and dozens and dozens of them are dead; they'll be traumatized for life.

However, hindsight is always 20/20.

To them I would say the same as I'd say to people in the U.S. A lot of mistakes were made, some for venal motives, but a lot because noboby really understood this virus, and that lies at the hands of the Chinese Communist party. If anyone has "blood on their hands", a terrible thing to say about anyone or any group at this terrible time, it's them.

As for the rest, there are a lot of other factors. Northern Italy does have the most 80 and 90 year olds in Europe. Younger people do interact a lot more with their parents and grandparents than do Germans and other parts of Northern Europe.

As I said, it was a perfect storm.

However, there were other perfect storms in Europe, apparently, i.e. Spain and Belgium. Perhaps everyone's expertise should be directed toward those countries and why they have such high death rates. I think the U.K is set to be another one.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Please watch this whistleblower video from Sara NP-- found on Youtube channel hipe GALAXY or on channel GulagBound (fast approaching 100,000 views). She touches on what I have been fearing about current Covid 19 treatment methods. Forced intubation has always seemed "off" to me. It stresses lung tissue, introduces Sepsis and other pathogens, plus we all know how insanely high the mortality rate is with this primitive approach.

Trump's practical solution has been sandbagged by the big pharma gang because there is simply not enough money to be made using medications that are 40 years old (and very cheap) compared to the hyped, biologically engineered, super fancy and complicated industry productions.

You don't put a cancer patient that is in hospice care on chemotherapy or radiation... nor should you put a Covid 19 test subject that is mechanically intubated on Malaria medication. Trump's solution works only if meds are given as soon as possible after initial exposure.

I am concerned by the seemingly countless financial connections between those in upper echelons of the CDC and NIH to Big Pharm.

And now Bill Gates is dedicating 100% of his "nonprofit" into Corona Virus research. Please allow me this prediction... Gates develops a vaccine, then gets a crucial stamp of approval from China (because of course the CCP will be getting a cut of the profits) and next he takes his lucrative "cure" to the CDC, and then worldwide. No one will be able to verify his company's research because his foundation is private so everything will be quite mysterious. (By the way, ask India what they think of Bill Gates and his vaccines.) There will be a lot of "you're going to have to trust us" and "we are here to help"... Um, no thank you Bill.

P.S. I have a handmade sign ready for when I eventually get dinged with Covid 19-- and in the event I can't communicate. It says "NO Ventilators Please" "Oxygen therapy is O.K. though".

 

[bigsnake49]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you have looked at this thread then you would know why the malaria drugs and other immunosuppressants do not work and can be contraindicated. They should be only given to patients with runaway autoimmune response (overabundance of cytokines). If you give them to people with normal immune response then you are lowering the capacity of the immune system to fight the disease. Not to mention the bad side effects particularly the arrhythmia. Lupus and RA patients take them at lower doses.

Trump should take his own medical advice and inject himself with disinfectant.

 

[Joey37]

Ass. I wish we had the red minus button back.