Health New Coronavirus in China

No. Do you know why? Because this is a BRAND NEW virus.

Modern medicine has developed a level of rigidity in it's thinking that is not only makes it impractical when facing never before encountered problems, it's actually dangerous over the long haul. Here's why...

Allow me to set up this scenario. Covid 19 is a large lumbering one-eyed monster heading straight for mankind. All of us humans are standing on the side of a steep cliff cowering in fear for the inevitable meeting. There is nothing around but an old toolshed that isn't that well stocked. There's no weapons, no guns, not even a pitchfork. In short, we are screwed.

As the monster gets closer, some panic and jump off the cliff. Some run in the toolshed and desperately search for ANYTHING to help. A few strap some painters tarp to their backs in hopes the tarp will fill with air on the way down and cushion the blow.

A guy named "Modern Medicine" starts drawing up plans for a Boeing 737 so he can fly off the cliff safely , and he begins tinkering around the shed. He won't move forward though until each step is approved by an intergovernmental agency... permission from this board, from that board... and of course the entire project has to be certified Green to keep the environment spotless.

But remember a giant one-eyed monster is attacking all of us. Tens of thousands, even millions will die soon. No time for tinkering. No time for jet airplanes, we need a functional parachute cobbled together with bungee cords, painters tarp, and duct tape. A fancy plane can come later.

What we have now is anecdotes from survivors, hints at how they pulled through their encounters, and I have watched as many as I possible. I have heard success with deep breathing techniques (Mr. Abel-- British survivor from ship stranded off coast of Japan), noticed that others report feeling way better after drinking orange juice (vitamin C) and felt horrible after drinking dairy. We have experiences from other monsters, yes, but none quite like this.

If all modern medicine can currently offer is ventilators (intubation) and non-invasive oxygen therapy, and they for whatever reason decide to scrimp on the non-invasive oxygen... that's a problem.

Modern medicine will lose trust with the people for being too strict and too slow. We need some out of the box thinking while we are building the escape vehicle. This should be encouraged, not mocked.

Because their ain't squat in the toolbox and we all know it. Be honest about it.
 
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And by the way, I will gladly fly in the eventual airplane. I have only one requirement that I touched upon earlier. We need to very careful about the ingredients used for the cure.
 
nordicwarrior said:
No. Do you know why? Because this is a BRAND NEW virus.
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I am aware, however my point is, the individuals you cite who’ve allegedly used this form of treatment have not initiated or done so in a trial with a relatively meaningful population size (AFAIK). So it shouldn’t be touted as a cure or a therapy. Secondly, modern medicine may seem slow, but approval for treatments by larger governing bodies through peer review is what prevents potentially dangerous treatments from being widely used. Remember thalidomide, its teratogenic effects began the formation of several regulatory bodies and for good reason. Is this process slow? Yes, however, during a global crisis they are pushing their hardest to get things examined and given the stamp of approval, recklessly using whatever tool for the sake of doing something has its own drawbacks as well, immediate and latent effects from a potential treatment could result in more illness and death.
 
Consider this the last warning. No conspiracy theory nonsense, and no pseudo-science. Post about papers conducted by reputable scientific groups or don't post at all. Monitor yourselves or I'll monitor you.
 
I'm hearing all this chatter in the media about how only the nearly dead already are dying of this virus, implying, I suppose, that it's a price we should be willing to pay. Maybe that will prove true here; we'll have to wait and see. It isn't true in Italy, however, although the skew is definitely higher among older people.

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Of course, this is based on people who are working, so there are fewer 70-79 year olds among them.
 
The WHO is pushing the "Sweden model", the same group which told us it was a mistake to cut down on international travel, and said there was no person to person transmission.

Is this what success looks like?

2DpchT4.png


Yes, it's a small number, but they're a small country. Yes, a lot of those cases are among the old. Is that something that countries like the U.S. would accept as the cost of doing business?

By the way, the Swedes said their plan would work because the Swedes would follow the directives against large gatherings, and the Swedes trust their government.

Well, reports are that the restaurants and pubs are thronged, and while they promised their elderly they would be protected, even in nursing homes, in fact the same carnage is taking place there as everywhere else in the world.

I've always believed too much trust in anyone or anything, particularly governments, is foolish.

Plus, they are a country on the periphery, so they weren't seeded multiple times from all around the world, their number of initial cases was very small, and we don't know how genetics factors in all of this.
 
Angela said:
The WHO is pushing the "Sweden model", the same group which told us it was a mistake to cut down on international travel, and said there was no person to person transmission.

Is this what success looks like?

2DpchT4.png


Yes, it's a small number, but they're a small country. Yes, a lot of those cases are among the old. Is that something that countries like the U.S. would accept as the cost of doing business?

By the way, the Swedes said their plan would work because the Swedes would follow the directives against large gatherings, and the Swedes trust their government.

Well, reports are that the restaurants and pubs are thronged, and while they promised their elderly they would be protected, even in nursing homes, in fact the same carnage is taking place there as everywhere else in the world.

I've always believed too much trust in anyone or anything, particularly governments, is foolish.

Plus, they are a country on the periphery, so they weren't seeded multiple times from all around the world, their number of initial cases was very small, and we don't know how genetics factors in all of this.
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Trust can also pointing at something else. The PM here in the Netherlands also stresses that we are living in a grown up democracy and that means no 'ukazes' from government and also trust in citizens and mutual trust is decisive....

Nice essay about this:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...ow-well-countries-respond-coronavirus/609025/
 
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Angela said:
The WHO is pushing the "Sweden model", the same group which told us it was a mistake to cut down on international travel, and said there was no person to person transmission.

Is this what success looks like?

2DpchT4.png


Yes, it's a small number, but they're a small country. Yes, a lot of those cases are among the old. Is that something that countries like the U.S. would accept as the cost of doing business?

By the way, the Swedes said their plan would work because the Swedes would follow the directives against large gatherings, and the Swedes trust their government.

Well, reports are that the restaurants and pubs are thronged, and while they promised their elderly they would be protected, even in nursing homes, in fact the same carnage is taking place there as everywhere else in the world.

I've always believed too much trust in anyone or anything, particularly governments, is foolish.

Plus, they are a country on the periphery, so they weren't seeded multiple times from all around the world, their number of initial cases was very small, and we don't know how genetics factors in all of this.
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I also find it very sinister and cynical that Sweden willingly plans 10 times or so more deaths for its older generation compared to other Nordic countries and also Baltic countries. Swedes are such dutiful and conscientious people and especially the older generation who worked so hard to build welfare society Sweden has now. And in return the younger generation decides that it is no harm if many of them die before their time.
And it is all for the sake of the economy - which will plunge anyway with the current trend. Governments should not think about getting back the economy but rather use this crisis for a restructuring towards sustainable future.
 
Dagne said:
I also find it very sinister and cynical that Sweden willingly plans 10 times or so more deaths for its older generation compared to other Nordic countries and also Baltic countries. Swedes are such dutiful and conscientious people and especially the older generation who worked so hard to build welfare society Sweden has now. And in return the younger generation decides that it is no harm if many of them will die before their time.
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We still have no light at the end of the tunnel. After a lock down the virus can return....So in the long run we don't know if the Swedes have made the wrong or the sinister choice....it's way to early to draw such conclusions.
 
True, we don't know how the situation will develop in the future, I agree. There could be scenarios where Sweden's move towards more infections could protect them more in the longer run.
But somehow, I don't think it is likely. The soundest way is to protect the population by quarantine before the full blown epidemic and then use the time to prepare for the second wave in autumn. Lithuania has way less resources compared to the Netherlands or Sweden, but still decided to start quarantine much faster in order not to "burn" the health care system and protect the elderly/sick. Now the restrictions are gradually moved away, and it seems to have been the right strategy. Of course, the situation may change very fast.
Last summer our prime minister was diagnosed with blood cancer and managed to heal from it while remaining a prime minister. It changed him also in terms of valuing human life no matter how frail, sick or old person may be.
 
Dagne said:
True, we don't know how the situation will develop in the future, I agree. There could be scenarios where Sweden's move towards more infections could protect them more in the longer run.
But somehow, I don't think it is likely. The soundest way is to protect the population by quarantine before the full blown epidemic and then use the time to prepare for the second wave in autumn. Lithuania has way less resources compared to the Netherlands or Sweden, but still decided to start quarantine much faster in order not to "burn" the health care system and protect the elderly/sick. Now the restrictions are gradually moved away, and it seems to have been the right strategy. Of course, the situation may change very fast.
Last summer our prime minister was diagnosed with blood cancer and managed to heal from it while remaining a prime minister. It changed him also in terms of valuing human life no matter how frail, sick or old person may be.
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Ok I guess the advantage in the Baltic is that it's mostly not a crowded house, so not so dense populated like the Netherlands. We have a pretty low IC capacity here, but the (partly) lockdown seems to work. But as everywhere is the big question now: economy need exchange but exchange has health risks....What I have heard and talked about a while ago with some persons from the Baltics the ICT is pretty advanced. May be your country can use this now at its advantage?
 
Angela said:
Consider this the last warning. No conspiracy theory nonsense, and no pseudo-science. Post about papers conducted by reputable scientific groups or don't post at all. Monitor yourselves or I'll monitor you.
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Was this directed toward me? If so could you please explain where I have devolved into a "conspiracy theory". I cited a practice (peroxide placed in a nebulizer) that three highly accredited doctors, specifically M.D.'s, are now touting.

Taking vitamins and eating fresh fruit/vegetables are part of basic health maintenance. Is this a "conspiracy theory" or pseudo-science? I'm confused.

Please don't allow political differences to color enforcement parameters. I have been respectful to other members. If there are problems with Covid 19 protocols in my country-- or any country-- I will address it and share it with others.
 
And as far as the concept "we have to sacrifice older citizens for the good of the economy", that is disingenous. I am on the side of opening earlier rather than later, and yes this may indeed help the economy recover faster... but this is not the reason why many of us are gearing up for a return to normal.

The real reason is simple. Food security. Only very recently have I heard politicians openly discuss this matter (probably because the meat processing plants here have been hit hard by Covid). And avoiding the subject is understandable because it can spark fear, and even panic that could result in a much bigger problem than the virus itself.

Everyone I have talked to "in real life" that shares my political leaning... all are very aware of what this can do to food supply lines.

Personally I work in commercial construction and most people wouldn't associate this type of job that would impact food supply... but it really does considering we are now days away from finishing a large grocery store. I'm thankful we didn't have to spend the first six months on this job in full PPE (ie. face mask) because after only a few weeks I'm spent. You're airflow is massively reduced no matter how you slice it and it is a serious bummer. Strap a sock over your mouth and pop a 50 lb bag of cement on your shoulder and then walk up two flights of stairs. Now do it another 25 times.

And the sweet, sweet irony is this... the amount of expense and effort that goes into a modern supermarket in the West is astounding. Refrigeration units, insane amounts of copper piping, insulation around each pipe, insulation around the walls, around the freezers, insulation IN THE CONCRETE FLOOR, massive motors that drive the freezers, the electrical supporting various departments, plumbing to everywhere, Cat five (or Cat six) to support registers... everything is to support efficiency, cleanliness, and food safety. EVERYTHING supports food safety in one way or another.

And some stubborn fool half way around the world insists on eating fresh bat or snake or whatever animal caused this … and it all the work described above is pointless. Your virus is my virus.
 
nordicwarrior said:
... I cited a practice (peroxide placed in a nebulizer) that three highly accredited doctors, specifically M.D.'s, are now touting.
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3 individuals who allegedly support this and this is reported on obscure websites, many of which are “holistic” based blogs. Secondly, several of those very websites which report this have a disclaimer so as to alert readers to not to do this without their doctor’s advice. Also worth noting that they make a distinction between food-grade 3% H2O2 and the more potent forms.

Taking vitamins and eating fresh fruit/vegetables are part of basic health maintenance. Is this a "conspiracy theory" or pseudo-science? I'm confused.
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No one said this, where did you get this idea from? I would think the conspiracy theory tag comes from the NWO-esque (microchips, various government inner workings, etc) discussions.

Please don't allow political differences to color enforcement parameters. I have been respectful to other members. If there are problems with Covid 19 protocols in my country-- or any country-- I will address it and share it with others.
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I don’t see anyone doing that, however, it is within perfect reason to criticize the current US administration for the handling of this crisis. The same can be said of any country, blind support (not accusing anyone of this BTW) of a leader can be very problematic.
 
spruithean said:
No one said this, where did you get this idea from? I would think the conspiracy theory tag comes from the NWO-esque (microchips, various government inner workings, etc) discussions.
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Yeah I hear you, except the FBI recently came after a healthcare provider/physician/doctor (will have to clarify name and position with and edit) for recommending vitamin C, vitamin D, and zinc to his patients as a way to deal with Covid. Apparently there was violation of social distancing in the waiting room as well. But this strikes me as bizarre to say the least.


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EDIT

Dr. Charles Mok Shelby Township Giving patients high dose of vitamin C intravenously. And Angela, I am NOT advocating for this treatment. Only commenting on what I view as government overreach here.

Spruithean, when you (or anyone) wants to defend the current methods of intubation and ventilation found in NYC after what we have learned from the two whistleblowers, and more importantly what we have learned from the sky-high mortality rates, please let me know. I notice you have avoided the whistleblower concerns completely.
 
I did address intubation, I acknowledged that it has an increased mortality rate, however, again, those who end up intubated are often in a critical state (can’t acquire enough oxygen on their own) prior to intubation, and they often have co-morbidities. We can’t say that intubation directly leads to an increased death rate with COVID-19. We need more information. I already mentioned the use of other methods, especially prone positioning of the patient to help with their SaO2 levels in a relatively non-threatening position.
Read: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ctors-rethink-rush-to-ventilate-idUSKCN2251PE
 
Prone is good. I have asthma and can tell you during a flare-up if I try to lay on my back, well it will soon be time to put my affairs in order.

Spruithean, yes you have addressed mortality rates in the general sense, but you are ignoring what Dr. Cameron Kyle-Siddell has brought up. He is encountering what presents as high altitude sickness and the ventilators are simply blowing up peoples lung tissue. Sara NP has touched on related issues, but her story is more disturbing because it goes to quality of care.

This is going to be something we have to address. In full defense of the health care workers-- I have sampled a tiny taste of what they have to contend with in full PPE. Face shield, mask, gown... until you try it on a work a complete shift, there is no way to describe it. I don't care if you are an Iron Man top twenty finisher... this gear will completely effect your energy level, your ability to perform your job, everything. It is a strength sapper. And I have heard some workers are pulling eight or twelve hour shifts, they should be working two hour shifts, at a maximum. Maybe even 20 minute shifts. It is that bad.
 
@nordicwarrior ... hope you get better fast ... besides, we need you November 3rd :)
 
nordicwarrior said:
Prone is good. I have asthma and can tell you during a flare-up if I try to lay on my back, well it will soon be time to put my affairs in order.

Spruithean, yes you have addressed mortality rates in the general sense, but you are ignoring what Dr. Cameron Kyle-Siddell has brought up. He is encountering what presents as high altitude sickness and the ventilators are simply blowing up peoples lung tissue. Sara NP has touched on related issues, but her story is more disturbing because it goes to quality of care.
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I'm aware of what Dr. Kyle-Sidell describes, I've seen this reported in several instances elsewhere, however there is also plenty of evidence to the contrary to what he is saying. Notably: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30076-X/fulltext, an article by Dr. Labos: https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-pseudoscience/no-covid-19-isnt-altitude-sickness, and here: https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/ham.2020.0055.

This is a difficult place we are in right now, as we just don't know enough about this virus, nor the disease it causes.
 
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