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Thread: Upcoming Reich Lab paper on Viminacium etc

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    Upcoming Reich Lab paper on Viminacium etc

    "~30% of ancient Roman samples (0-400 AD) from Viminacium , and ~25% of Roman/Early Medieval samples (300-700 AD) from Timacum Minus are E-V13."


    (from user pribislav)

    Apparantly a new Reich lab paper is coming finally on the Balkans, and high EV13 is showing up.


    "Viminacium or Viminatium was a major city (provincial capital) and military camp of the Roman province of Moesia (today's Serbia), and the capital of Moesia Superior.


    The site is located 12 km (7.5 mi) from the modern town of Kostolac in Eastern Serbia. The city dates back to the 1st century AD, and at its peak it is believed to have had 40,000 inhabitants, making it one of the biggest cities of that time. It lies on the Roman road Via Militaris. Viminacium was devastated by Huns in the 5th century, but was later rebuilt by Justinian. It was completely destroyed with the arrival of Slavs in the 6th century.


    Viminacium holds a distinction of having the largest number of graves discovered in any Roman archaeological site. As of 2018, 15,000 graves have been discovered."




    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viminacium
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timacum_Minus
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    Regular Member Johane Derite's Avatar
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    Quoting him:

    "It's from an upcoming aDNA paper by Reich's team. Since most, if not all sequencing and subsequent analyses are done (autosomal, Y-DNA, mtDNA), I hope we'll see the paper published this year. As per usual, they didn't bother much with Y chromosome, so we'll have to wait BAM files to discover deeper subclades. There are also J2b2a-L283 and R1b-Z2103>CTS1450 samples from Timacum Minus, dated 300-500 AD."

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    Further quote:

    I see 75 samples, one of which is previously published Hun/Gepid sample Vim2b from Viminacium, so 74 new samples.

    Of those, 52 are from Viminacium:

    Four necropoli:

    19 from Pirivoj (100-400 AD)
    13 from Rit (0-300 AD)
    10 from Vie Grobalja (0-300 AD)
    10 from Pećine (0-300 AD)

    and

    17 from Timacum Minus:

    Two necropoli:

    11 from Slog (300-500 AD)
    6 from Kuline (400-700 AD)

    There are also

    1 Roman and
    1 Late Medieval sample from Lepenski Vir,
    2 Gepid samples (300-500 AD) from Mediana (near Ni/Naisos) and
    1 Medieval (850-950 AD) sample from Gomolava (this one belongs to I2-Din, so he's most likely Slavic).

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    Well, we'll finally have very proximate pre-Slavic migration samples from the Balkans.

    Can't wait. :)


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    Yes, I hope the Reich lab contacts departments from Kosovo (Ulpiana / Justiniana Secunda is a big site that has been barely worked) and Albania and Greece and does the same study. Also in North Macedonia Skopje and Shtip.

    Naissus (Nish) in Serbia would also be a very illuminating place to test.

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    E-V13 will establish itself as a fundamentally important Thracian haplogroup (Alot more important for Thracian genesis than I2a Din was for the Slavic).

    The linguistic Paleobalkan division will follow the genetic division, comparable to R-U152 - R-U106:
    E-V13 Thracian
    J-L283 Illyrian

    Minority of these ofc were present in the other groups.

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    Regular Member Johane Derite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    E-V13 will establish itself as a fundamentally important Thracian haplogroup (Alot more important for Thracian genesis than I2a Din was for the Slavic).

    The linguistic Paleobalkan division will follow the genetic division, comparable to R-U152 - R-U106:
    E-V13 Thracian
    J-L283 Illyrian

    Minority of these ofc were present in the other groups.
    The term "thracian" has unscientific baggage from being used to mean only "east balkans" and usually "satem" whereas now this "thracoid" and "satem" or "satem-like" stratum is recognized as being as west as Messapics in Apulia (See: Matzinger 2019 Messapisch).

    So were Messapics "thracians" despite never ever being called so? Their language is on the Albanoid continuum.

    There is only Italo-Celtic, Albanoid, and Hellenic stratums in the ancient balkans so far found. These are more scientific terms to use without the outdated baggage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The term "thracian" has unscientific baggage from being used to mean only "east balkans" and usually "satem" whereas now this "thracoid" and "satem" or "satem-like" stratum is recognized as being as west as Messapics in Apulia (See: Matzinger 2019 Messapisch).

    So were Messapics "thracians" despite never ever being called so? Their language is on the Albanoid continuum.

    There is only Italo-Celtic, Albanoid, and Hellenic stratums in the ancient balkans so far found. These are more scientific terms to use without the outdated baggage.
    Armenian is also a Paleobalkanic language, as proto-Armenians arrived from the Balkans.

    Regarding Matzinger I read he proposed a "third path" for the Albanian, neither classic Illyrian nor Thracian. Will have to read that Messapian article.

    Thracian language might be some late Srubnaya related arrival, in which case would also some E-V13 be involved with its spread..

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    Nice 👍😎
    So significant % of e-v13 among the moesians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    E-V13 will establish itself as a fundamentally important Thracian haplogroup (Alot more important for Thracian genesis than I2a Din was for the Slavic).

    The linguistic Paleobalkan division will follow the genetic division, comparable to R-U152 - R-U106:
    E-V13 Thracian
    J-L283 Illyrian

    Minority of these ofc were present in the other groups.
    Is this E-v13 theory based on recent Dacian papers showing a lot of this marker.....iirc something like 34 of 55 samples had this E
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-Y33791
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Is this E-v13 theory based on recent Dacian papers showing a lot of this marker.....iirc something like 34 of 55 samples had this E
    I started a topic some time ago
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ci-and-CTS9320

    Because E-V13>CTS5856 clades are very diverse in broader Thracian region.

    V13 likely original origin point is Western Balkans (since Neolithic). But their presumed culture migrated Eastwards.

    Some don't like E-V13 being big players though (mostly non E-V13 of course), some Serbian (mostly I-Y3120's ofc) and some Albanians have been actively involved in promotion of this old "Pelasgian slaves" nonsense from 10+ years ago.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Good news! I hope this help us shed some light on the origins of E-V13 (although its original dispersal appears to have been during the Middle to Late Bronze Age).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I started a topic some time ago
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ci-and-CTS9320

    Because E-V13>CTS5856 clades are very diverse in broader Thracian region.

    V13 likely original origin point is Western Balkans (since Neolithic). But their presumed culture migrated Eastwards.

    Some don't like E-V13 being big players though (mostly non E-V13 of course), some Serbian (mostly I-Y3120's ofc) and some Albanians have been actively involved in promotion of this old "Pelasgian slaves" nonsense from 10+ years ago.
    I've never understood this just from simple logic, and/or knowledge of population genetics in particular.

    Subjugated y lines don't expand, they diminish or virtually disappear. That's what happened to the older G2a lines everywhere.

    E-V13 underwent a massive expansion in the Bronze Age from what we can see given the samples we have. That means it was a highly successful y line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I started a topic some time ago
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ci-and-CTS9320

    Because E-V13>CTS5856 clades are very diverse in broader Thracian region.

    V13 likely original origin point is Western Balkans (since Neolithic). But their presumed culture migrated Eastwards.

    Some don't like E-V13 being big players though (mostly non E-V13 of course), some Serbian (mostly I-Y3120's ofc) and some Albanians have been actively involved in promotion of this old "Pelasgian slaves" nonsense from 10+ years ago.
    Who was that Albanian involved in that?

    Because, as i see you are heavilly involved to disassociate Albanians from Illyrian continuum. Bear in mind, the Bronze Age Croatian could not have been Illyrian as far as we know, so far J2b2 was found a lot among Nuragics and 1 Etruscan. South Albanians don't have important J2b2 percentage. E-V13 and R1b seems to be more consistent Albanian - Illyrian Y-DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Subjugated y lines don't expand, they diminish or virtually disappear. That's what happened to the older G2a lines everywhere.

    E-V13 underwent a massive expansion in the Bronze Age from what we can see given the samples we have. That means it was a highly successful y line.
    That is true and. I pointed out few years ago the same to one Serbian admin who claimed that "E-V13 has nothing to do with Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks, they are an older population whose communities disintegrated under the IE pressure".

    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    Who was that Albanian involved in that?
    Leki for ex. always taking about V13 being farmers, Bulgarian V13 arriving there in Medieval ages (supported by Derite also) so that it has nothing to do with Thracians, silly considering some diversity there.

    If indeed E-V13 focal expanding point is Western Balkans that is Illyrian areas, then indeed they might fit well into "Pelasgian slave farmers", because E-L618 was there in Neolithic, so if E-V13 always remained there how can they have anything to do with IE's?? You've got a V13, there 4000 BC, there 3000 BC, there 2000 BC, there 1000 BC. How can this guy be any IE arrival?

    1. Some Serbs I saw seem to support this because "for these African E's, being subservient is what is suitable for them.. all cool populations are only R and ofc I".
    2. Some Albanians want to be local in an area forever. The "we have been there before you" narrative.. Part of this are also Serbs who wish to prove that Albanians are a Paleo-balkanic group not native to Albania so that "Slavs can be both late arrivals and more indigenous to Albania than Albanians"..

    Successful groups move around, no moving around no success usually. I dont care much about these and those groups, rather my focal point is to avoid my hg being subservient.. I care little for EEF's, and even so you saw here some of my attempts to make it as if E-V13 were some separate group of EEF's who never spoke Etruscan but AA.. I like Ancient Egyptians alot, Pharaohs were the good guys for me.. (ofc these are some of my "emotional" leanings).

    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    Because, as i see you are heavilly involved to disassociate Albanians from Illyrian continuum. Bear in mind, the Bronze Age Croatian could not have been Illyrian as far as we know, so far J2b2 was found a lot among Nuragics and 1 Etruscan. South Albanians don't have important J2b2 percentage. E-V13 and R1b seems to be more consistent Albanian - Illyrian Y-DNA.
    Hehe Trojet won't like what u wrote. J2b2 were Illyrians, albeit Illyrians as a group are a more complicated case. What they were, what was their language. Albanian language just judging by some crucial phonetic traits does not fit into the dominant Illyrian frame (Illyrian groups sporting names with Sk, which evolved early in Albanian into "h").. Maybe it can fit into Messapian or some other..

    I was saying that during the LBA collapse some archaeological cultures migrated to South Albania, and that some E-V13 clades fit nicely into that. Very diverse in Albanians is PF7563. Its older branches fit into Ezero culture from Bulgaria, Luwian related, but it seems Z29758 migrated to subsequently Illyrian areas.

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    Ethnopedia just posted their results of 1067 Italian YDNA results so far. EV13 does seem to spike where the most Albanoid glosses have been found in Italy, namely the Apulia region.

    I guess it should be noted that the name Apulia comes from the Apuli tribe of Apulon.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apuli
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apulon


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Ethnopedia just posted their results of 1067 Italian YDNA results so far. EV13 does seem to spike where the most Albanoid glosses have been found in Italy, namely the Apulia region.

    I guess it should be noted that the name Apulia comes from the Apuli tribe of Apulon.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apuli
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apulon


    is this the new data from the site......it looks different and more detailed

    the hapolgroups missing from the apulian/messapic areas are ......G2a, T, J1, R1a
    all others are there

    the area which has the majority of what I noted is the Foggia area
    with E, I1 and J2 being the majority

    the interesting area for me is the Aquila area where most T show on the map......this matches the ancient samnite/sabellic finds found a few years ago......the other major haplogroup from that same area is I1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The term "thracian" has unscientific baggage from being used to mean only "east balkans" and usually "satem" whereas now this "thracoid" and "satem" or "satem-like" stratum is recognized as being as west as Messapics in Apulia (See: Matzinger 2019 Messapisch).

    So were Messapics "thracians" despite never ever being called so? Their language is on the Albanoid continuum.

    There is only Italo-Celtic, Albanoid, and Hellenic stratums in the ancient balkans so far found. These are more scientific terms to use without the outdated baggage.
    So no Armenian and Phrygian-related stratums? Or would you include them in the Albanoid and/or Hellenic group?

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Without further resolution I think we should be cautious about drawing conclusions. There's more E1b1b in Italy than just E-V13, although I think Apulia may well have the most of it. From other papers E-V13 is also heavy in Liguria and it's present in the coastal Veneto, which doesn't show up here.

    The latter highlights the fact that these are not representative samples. The academic papers are still our best bet in tracking yDna in Italy.

    Some things confirm what papers have told us. R1a is a non-factor in Italy. The R1a that shows up is from Slavic people entering areas like Friuli. Likewise, the I1 in the most far northern part of Italy can be ignored in terms of ancient migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    So no Armenian and Phrygian-related stratums? Or would you include them in the Albanoid and/or Hellenic group?
    I would possibly include Armenian, but this isn't as confirmed as being in the ancient Balkans as of yet, I don't know if they have ever found Armenoid glosses in the ancient Balkans, and there is also a group that argues for Armenian indigeneity (Eric Hamp in his paper).

    As for Phrygia, i don't know if we can classify it as it's own stratum based on a few hundred glosses.

    I think we need to simplify or rationalize the approach since very often multiple terms are used for the same people, or one tribe name is applied to the entire people sometimes, etc. For example, the Triballi were a tribe who were considered Thracians, but in the Parian Marble it is used to refer to all the Thracians. This type of thing happens often, and also the use of the terms isn't constant across time, so it get's confusing if from the roman period and if from the homeric works.

    So maybe there existed an individual Phrygian stratum, a seperate Dacian one, a seperate Triballian one, etc, but for now this is impossible to know.

    However, we know for sure there was an Italo-Celtic one that went all the way into Greece also, a Hellenic one, Anatolian ones, and Albanoid ones, possibly Armenoid also, (but not aware of any found).

    When we say Italo-Celtic, Proto-Albanian, etc, I think this is clearer.

    For now I think that at a deeper point in antiquity the ancestor of proto-Albanian and the Thracian, Dacian, Messapic and "Illyri-Proper" languages was one common language that was satem-like, but that this split happened a while ago, and is confused by the urnfield element which seems to have been Italo-Celtic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    is this the new data from the site......it looks different and more detailed

    the hapolgroups missing from the apulian/messapic areas are ......G2a, T, J1, R1a
    all others are there

    the area which has the majority of what I noted is the Foggia area
    with E, I1 and J2 being the majority

    the interesting area for me is the Aquila area where most T show on the map......this matches the ancient samnite/sabellic finds found a few years ago......the other major haplogroup from that same area is I1
    Aquila
    macro-haplogroup LT is 30% in L'Aquila population. This was the land of Samnium inhabited by the Caraceni
    I wonder is there is some haplogroup LT instead of L and T ( 6 of 30 samples )

    Messina F, Finocchio A, Rolfo MF, De Angelis F, Rapone C, Coletta M, Martínez-Labarga C, Biondi G, Berti A, Rickards O (2015). "Traces of forgotten historical events in mountain communities in Central Italy: A genetic insight"

    2/18 in Vallepietra
    1/9 in Matelica
    2/17 in Filettino

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    I don't think anyone really disputes E-V13 is quite old in the Balkans. You guys aren't trying to push an eastern Ukraine, maybe Samara region origin as well are you? Nothing at all wrong with farmers, in fact the city builders of the Balkans (most definitely rich in E-V13) were more advanced than the steppe intruders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    I don't think anyone really disputes E-V13 is quite old in the Balkans. You guys aren't trying to push an eastern Ukraine, maybe Samara region origin as well are you? Nothing at all wrong with farmers, in fact the city builders of the Balkans (most definitely rich in E-V13) were more advanced than the steppe intruders.
    nope, the city builders were gone by the time E-V13 started to expand
    the steppe intruders were allready in the Carpathian Basin
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
    the E-V13 godfather had probably learned his stricks from them

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    nope, the city builders were gone by the time E-V13 started to expand
    the steppe intruders were allready in the Carpathian Basin
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
    the E-V13 godfather had probably learned his stricks from them
    There is no evidence for what you are saying but there is a lot of evidence that E-V13 and the direct ancestor of all E-V13'S today lived in the Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian culture.
    And these guys were among the first builders of large settlements in Europe, way before the Steppe invaders came and destroyed those settlements.
    It extended from the Carpathian Mountains to the Dniester and Dnieper regions, centred on modern-day Moldova and covering substantial parts of western Ukraine and northeastern Romania, encompassing an area of 350,000 km2 (140,000 sq mi), with a diameter of 500 km (300 mi; roughly from Kyiv in the northeast to Brașov in the southwest).[1][2]
    The majority of Cucuteni–Trypillia settlements consisted of high-density, small settlements (spaced 3 to 4 kilometres apart), concentrated mainly in the Siret, Prut and Dniester river valleys.[3] During the Middle Trypillia phase (c. 4000 to 3500 BC), populations belonging to the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture built the largest settlements in Neolithic Europe, some of which contained as many as 3,000 structures and were possibly inhabited by 20,000 to 46,000 people.[4][5][6]
    Most likely the Steppe invaders have learned to build cities from the Neolithic people to which the ancestor of all modern E-V13 most likely belong.
    And even more likely is that this ancestor was in the Balkans way before any Steppe people.

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