Upcoming Reich Lab paper on Viminacium etc

Without further resolution I think we should be cautious about drawing conclusions. There's more E1b1b in Italy than just E-V13, although I think Apulia may well have the most of it. From other papers E-V13 is also heavy in Liguria and it's present in the coastal Veneto, which doesn't show up here.

The latter highlights the fact that these are not representative samples. The academic papers are still our best bet in tracking yDna in Italy.

Some things confirm what papers have told us. R1a is a non-factor in Italy. The R1a that shows up is from Slavic people entering areas like Friuli. Likewise, the I1 in the most far northern part of Italy can be ignored in terms of ancient migrations.
 
So no Armenian and Phrygian-related stratums? Or would you include them in the Albanoid and/or Hellenic group?

I would possibly include Armenian, but this isn't as confirmed as being in the ancient Balkans as of yet, I don't know if they have ever found Armenoid glosses in the ancient Balkans, and there is also a group that argues for Armenian indigeneity (Eric Hamp in his paper).

As for Phrygia, i don't know if we can classify it as it's own stratum based on a few hundred glosses.

I think we need to simplify or rationalize the approach since very often multiple terms are used for the same people, or one tribe name is applied to the entire people sometimes, etc. For example, the Triballi were a tribe who were considered Thracians, but in the Parian Marble it is used to refer to all the Thracians. This type of thing happens often, and also the use of the terms isn't constant across time, so it get's confusing if from the roman period and if from the homeric works.

So maybe there existed an individual Phrygian stratum, a seperate Dacian one, a seperate Triballian one, etc, but for now this is impossible to know.

However, we know for sure there was an Italo-Celtic one that went all the way into Greece also, a Hellenic one, Anatolian ones, and Albanoid ones, possibly Armenoid also, (but not aware of any found).

When we say Italo-Celtic, Proto-Albanian, etc, I think this is clearer.

For now I think that at a deeper point in antiquity the ancestor of proto-Albanian and the Thracian, Dacian, Messapic and "Illyri-Proper" languages was one common language that was satem-like, but that this split happened a while ago, and is confused by the urnfield element which seems to have been Italo-Celtic.
 
is this the new data from the site......it looks different and more detailed

the hapolgroups missing from the apulian/messapic areas are ......G2a, T, J1, R1a
all others are there

the area which has the majority of what I noted is the Foggia area
with E, I1 and J2 being the majority

the interesting area for me is the Aquila area where most T show on the map......this matches the ancient samnite/sabellic finds found a few years ago......the other major haplogroup from that same area is I1

Aquila
macro-haplogroup LT is 30% in L'Aquila population. This was the land of Samnium inhabited by the Caraceni
I wonder is there is some haplogroup LT instead of L and T ( 6 of 30 samples )

Messina F, Finocchio A, Rolfo MF, De Angelis F, Rapone C, Coletta M, Martínez-Labarga C, Biondi G, Berti A, Rickards O (2015). "Traces of forgotten historical events in mountain communities in Central Italy: A genetic insight"

2/18 in Vallepietra
1/9 in Matelica
2/17 in Filettino
 
I don't think anyone really disputes E-V13 is quite old in the Balkans. You guys aren't trying to push an eastern Ukraine, maybe Samara region origin as well are you? Nothing at all wrong with farmers, in fact the city builders of the Balkans (most definitely rich in E-V13) were more advanced than the steppe intruders.
 
I don't think anyone really disputes E-V13 is quite old in the Balkans. You guys aren't trying to push an eastern Ukraine, maybe Samara region origin as well are you? Nothing at all wrong with farmers, in fact the city builders of the Balkans (most definitely rich in E-V13) were more advanced than the steppe intruders.

nope, the city builders were gone by the time E-V13 started to expand
the steppe intruders were allready in the Carpathian Basin
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
the E-V13 godfather had probably learned his stricks from them
 
nope, the city builders were gone by the time E-V13 started to expand
the steppe intruders were allready in the Carpathian Basin
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
the E-V13 godfather had probably learned his stricks from them
There is no evidence for what you are saying but there is a lot of evidence that E-V13 and the direct ancestor of all E-V13'S today lived in the Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian culture.
And these guys were among the first builders of large settlements in Europe, way before the Steppe invaders came and destroyed those settlements.
It extended from the Carpathian Mountains to the Dniester and Dnieper regions, centred on modern-day Moldova and covering substantial parts of western Ukraine and northeastern Romania, encompassing an area of 350,000 km2 (140,000 sq mi), with a diameter of 500 km (300 mi; roughly from Kyiv in the northeast to Brașov in the southwest).[1][2]
The majority of Cucuteni–Trypillia settlements consisted of high-density, small settlements (spaced 3 to 4 kilometres apart), concentrated mainly in the Siret, Prut and Dniester river valleys.[3] During the Middle Trypillia phase (c. 4000 to 3500 BC), populations belonging to the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture built the largest settlements in Neolithic Europe, some of which contained as many as 3,000 structures and were possibly inhabited by 20,000 to 46,000 people.[4][5][6]
Most likely the Steppe invaders have learned to build cities from the Neolithic people to which the ancestor of all modern E-V13 most likely belong.
And even more likely is that this ancestor was in the Balkans way before any Steppe people.
 
i think the romans were impressed by the dacian civilization (i may be wrong )
http://www.angelfire.com/journal/dacians/

and it wouldn't surprise anyone here if e-v13 was also significant among them ....
 
There is no evidence for what you are saying but there is a lot of evidence that E-V13 and the direct ancestor of all E-V13'S today lived in the Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian culture.
And these guys were among the first builders of large settlements in Europe, way before the Steppe invaders came and destroyed those settlements.
It extended from the Carpathian Mountains to the Dniester and Dnieper regions, centred on modern-day Moldova and covering substantial parts of western Ukraine and northeastern Romania, encompassing an area of 350,000 km2 (140,000 sq mi), with a diameter of 500 km (300 mi; roughly from Kyiv in the northeast to Brașov in the southwest).[1][2]

Most likely the Steppe invaders have learned to build cities from the Neolithic people to which the ancestor of all modern E-V13 most likely belong.
And even more likely is that this ancestor was in the Balkans way before any Steppe people.

just check the TMRCA's of the E-V13 subclades to see they expanded around 4,7 ka, way after the end of the Cucuteni
and the steppe invaders, they remained herders, they didn't build cities at that time
well, I guess some of them became traders
 
pribislav from anthrogenica:
posted the y haplogroups from those serbian roman and late antiquity:)
but i am not sure about the veracity of them so i will wait for the real paper to come out .....:unsure:
 
nope, the city builders were gone by the time E-V13 started to expand
the steppe intruders were allready in the Carpathian Basin
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
the E-V13 godfather had probably learned his stricks from them

We are grandsons of a man called Proteus( in Ancient Egyptian inscription prt ) who lived somewhere in Early Bronze Age. He was a farmer and warrior who lived in the Alpine region, descended of Old Neolithic Farmers. His family and tribe was killed by some invaders from the East, Bull Beakers. Proteus revenged his family by killing two of the sons of Bull Beaker leader then he escaped further south in Italian Penninsula where he was welcomed and entered the services of the King of Rutulis.
 






Viminacium - 28 (labeled Serbia_Roman):

E x 13 (L618 x 6; L618>V13 x 3; Z830 x 1; Z830>M123 x 1; Z1902 x 1; M96 x 1)

G x 5 (PF3148 x 1; PF3148>L91 x 1; P303 x 1; L497 x 1; L497>Z1815 x 1)

R1b x 3 (Z2103 x 1; U106 x 1; U152>L2>Z367 x 1)

R1a x 2 (Z2124>Z2122 x 1; Z2124>Z2123 x 1)

J x 2 (M304 x 1; L24 x 1)

T x 1 (M184)

I1 x 1 (M253)

I2 x 1 (L596)


Timacum Minus, Slog necropolis - 10 (labeled Serbia_Roman):

E x 3 (M35 x 1; L618 x 1; L618>V13 x 1)

J x 3 (M304 x 1; M410 x 1; M241 x 1)

R1b x 2 (Z2103 x 1; Z2103>CTS1450 x 1)

G x 1 (CTS342>FGC12126)

I1 x 1 (Z58>CTS8647)


Timacum Minus, Kuline necropolis - 5 (labeled Serbia_Early_Middle_Age):

I2 x 2 (M423 x 2)

E x 1 (L618)

J x 1 (M304)

R1b x 1 (P312>DF99)


Lepenski Vir - 2:

E x 1 (M35) - Serbia_Roman

J x 1 (M102) - Serbia_Medieval


Mediana - 2 (labeled Serbia_Gepid):

G x 1 (P287)

I1 x 1 (Z58>CTS8647)


Gomolava - 1 (labeled Serbia_Medieval):

I2 x 1 (M423>L621>CTS4002)


from pribislav :

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...arian-Iron-Age&p=695643&viewfull=1#post695643



Originally Posted by Aspar
Are these SNP confirmed or just predicted from STR markers?



All samples were 1240K sequenced at Reich Lab, so they are SNP confirmed. They obviously haven't paid much attention to Y-haplogroups, so we'll have to wait for paper to be published to check the BAM files for downstream SNPs.



One more thing, I've only seen samples from Serbia, but this paper should be massive, with hundreds of samples from all across the Roman Empire, so we can expect samples from other Balkan countries as well. I'm pretty sure there will be samples from Bulgaria, Macedonia, Greece and Hungary, but I'm hoping there will also be some from Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegowina, Montenegro, Albania and Romania.




p.s
the e-z830 and e-m123 from
Viminacium can turn e-m123* or E-L791 like napoleon :)
 






Viminacium - 28 (labeled Serbia_Roman):

E x 13 (L618 x 6; L618>V13 x 3; Z830 x 1; Z830>M123 x 1; Z1902 x 1; M96 x 1)

G x 5 (PF3148 x 1; PF3148>L91 x 1; P303 x 1; L497 x 1; L497>Z1815 x 1)

R1b x 3 (Z2103 x 1; U106 x 1; U152>L2>Z367 x 1)

R1a x 2 (Z2124>Z2122 x 1; Z2124>Z2123 x 1)

J x 2 (M304 x 1; L24 x 1)

T x 1 (M184)

I1 x 1 (M253)

I2 x 1 (L596)


Timacum Minus, Slog necropolis - 10 (labeled Serbia_Roman):

E x 3 (M35 x 1; L618 x 1; L618>V13 x 1)

J x 3 (M304 x 1; M410 x 1; M241 x 1)

R1b x 2 (Z2103 x 1; Z2103>CTS1450 x 1)

G x 1 (CTS342>FGC12126)

I1 x 1 (Z58>CTS8647)


Timacum Minus, Kuline necropolis - 5 (labeled Serbia_Early_Middle_Age):

I2 x 2 (M423 x 2)

E x 1 (L618)

J x 1 (M304)

R1b x 1 (P312>DF99)


Lepenski Vir - 2:

E x 1 (M35) - Serbia_Roman

J x 1 (M102) - Serbia_Medieval


Mediana - 2 (labeled Serbia_Gepid):

G x 1 (P287)

I1 x 1 (Z58>CTS8647)


Gomolava - 1 (labeled Serbia_Medieval):

I2 x 1 (M423>L621>CTS4002)


from pribislav :

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...arian-Iron-Age&p=695643&viewfull=1#post695643



Originally Posted by Aspar
Are these SNP confirmed or just predicted from STR markers?



All samples were 1240K sequenced at Reich Lab, so they are SNP confirmed. They obviously haven't paid much attention to Y-haplogroups, so we'll have to wait for paper to be published to check the BAM files for downstream SNPs.



One more thing, I've only seen samples from Serbia, but this paper should be massive, with hundreds of samples from all across the Roman Empire, so we can expect samples from other Balkan countries as well. I'm pretty sure there will be samples from Bulgaria, Macedonia, Greece and Hungary, but I'm hoping there will also be some from Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegowina, Montenegro, Albania and Romania.




p.s
the e-z830 and e-m123 from
Viminacium can turn e-m123* or E-L791 like napoleon :)

Wow this is so exciting, thanks for sharing. Any word yet on autosomal results of the Serbia samples, or any other samples? Hopefully we will see the downstream Y DNA clades.
 
You welcome... 😉
No i don't think anyone know on the autosomal
Results of the serbian samples
I also think it would be very cool
Paper and when the bam file will be out
Someone would check for downstream clades
In each haplogroup..🤔
P.s
The autosomal picture is important
For us to know or to make good guess
On the ethnicity of each remain
is he local moesian.... ?
Is he roman soldier from legion... ?
Is he auxilary soldier..... ?
🤔

Roman ruins in serbia .. :)


https://davidsbeenhere.com/2016/08/29/video-roman-ruins-serbia/
 
Last edited:
it would be interesting if the 2 e-m35 samples from timacum minus and lepenski vir ( which are not asign to e-z830 or e-L618 and it's dervied clade E-V13
will end up in e-L19 or e-m81 :unsure:

Timacum Minus, Slog necropolis - 10 (labeled Serbia_Roman):

E x 3 (M35 x 1;
L618 x 1; L618>V13 x 1)

J x 3 (M304 x 1; M410 x 1; M241 x 1)

R1b x 2 (Z2103 x 1; Z2103>CTS1450 x 1)

G x 1 (CTS342>FGC12126)

I1 x 1 (Z58>CTS8647)


Lepenski Vir - 2:

E x 1 (M35) - Serbia_Roman

J x 1 (M102) - Serbia_Medieval


p.s
as there where north african auxilary units in the roman army :unsure:

i now notice that in
Viminacium
there is 1 sample of z1902 :)
E x 13 (L618 x 6; L618>V13 x 3; Z830 x 1; Z830>M123 x 1; Z1902 x 1; M96 x 1)
z1902 is the common ancestor of e-v12 and e-v65
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z1902/ fascinating :cool-v:
wonder if this sample will end in e-v12 or e-v65 after bam files release
:unsure:
 
this is the name of the paper that will be published : ( from where the leak came)

Olalde Iñigo: Human mobility at the Roman Danubian Limes before and after the fall of the Empire:cool-v:olalde is the same dude who made the great paper : on 8000 years of iberian history
so i am looking forward to this paper :)
 


thanks blevins for the link (y)
that is very cool there are many gifts in session 3 :cool-v:

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Sorry for the noob question, but when and where can we read the paper, since it's supposed to be published somewhere today?
 
Sorry for the noob question, but when and where can we read the paper, since it's supposed to be published somewhere today?

i think today it is only the date of the presentation of this paper in the conference
not the actual date this paper will be published
 

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