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Thread: Asian "grooming gangs" in England

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    Lol you people are so pathetic.
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    [QUOTE=Tutkun Arnaut;596523]
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Stop spreading such complete misinformation. This wasn't about 20 year old women white women having affairs with British Pakistani guys and then they didn't marry them.

    It helps to educate oneself before opining.

    This was indeed about rape and when it wasn't about "actual" rape it was about grooming vulnerable CHILDREN from dysfunctional families with drugs, alcohol, gifts etc.

    Eventually some men were convicted. Not enough of them, however, and not harshly enough. I always did think chemical castration has its place.

    "The abuse of underage girls that occurred in 2008 and 2009 centred around two takeaways in Heywood near Rochdale. Despite one victim going to the police in 2008 to report the child grooming, the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) decided not to prosecute two men, invoking the witness's credibility.Attempts by Rochdale Crisis Intervention Team co-ordinator for the NHS, Sara Rowbotham to alert police and authorities to "patterns of sexual abuse" were ignored. Between 2003 and 2014, Sara Rowbotham, made more than 180 attempts to alert police and social services but was told the witnesses were not reliable.[14]
    As a result of the CPS dropping the case, the police halted their investigation, which was resumed when a second girl made complaints of a similar nature in December 2009.[15] The CPS's original decision was overturned in 2011 when a new chief prosecutor for the region, Nazir Afzal, a first generation British-Pakistani,[16] was appointed.[2]
    The victims, vulnerable teenagers from deprived, dysfunctional backgrounds, were targeted in "honeypot locations" where young people congregated, such as takeaway food shops. One victim, a 15-year-old known as the Honey Monster, acted as a recruiter, procuring girls as young as 13 for the gang. The victims were coerced and bribed into keeping quiet about the abuse by a combination of alcohol and drugs, food, small sums of money and other gifts.[1][2]
    The oldest person to be convicted, Shabir Ahmed,[17] was for a while the main trafficker of the victims. On one occasion he ordered a girl aged 15 to have sex with Kabeer Hassan, as a "treat" for his birthday — Hassan then raped the girl himself.[18] Abdul Aziz, a married father of three, took over from Shabir Ahmed as the main trafficker and was paid by various men to supply underage girls for sex.[18]
    Victims were physically assaulted and raped by as many as five men at a time,[1] or obliged to have sex with "several men in a day, several times a week".[9] The victims, plied with drugs and alcohol, were passed around friends and family,[19] and taken to various locations in the north of England, including Rochdale, Oldham, Nelson, Bradford and Leeds.[1] The abusers paid small sums of money for the encounters.[1] One 13-year-old victim recounted that, after being forced to have sex in exchange for vodka, her abuser immediately raped her again and gave her £40 to not say anything about the incident.[19] Among the incidents recorded by the police were a 15-year-old victim too drunk to recall being raped by 20 men, one after the other; and another victim so drunk that she vomited over the side of the bed as she was being raped by two men.[2] One thirteen-year-old victim had an abortion after becoming pregnant.[9]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochda...sex_abuse_ring
    [/QU

    You over react Angela! Nobody is spreading misinformation! Probably you spilled a hot spoon of soup while writing! I was talkin for 10 years ago, not now.
    You're proving my point.

    It was precisely ten years ago that this was at its height, although, trust me, we always have sexual predators with us.

    The point is that if the discussion is about Asian "grooming gangs", it should be obvious that we're not talking about a twenty year old European British woman having an affair with a British Pakistani and then being upset when he marries a Pakistani.

    That's stupidity on her part, not a crime!

    My nonna used to say you should think twice before you speak.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Farstar View Post
    Maybe you are right, at least partly. I am willing to concede my faults. And despite my claim, I do not think left wingers are bad per se. I think they are (often) bad now. Maybe one hundred years ago, they were good people.

    The key issue is to be able to concede one is sometimes (often?) wrong. Me, I am the first to accept this, and to accept that others may enrich me with their opinions.

    My alarms start to sound when I see people acting religiously on their opinions. In other periods of history, those were probably fascists, communists ... Now, I think the danger comes from the Left.

    But I could be wrong.
    That must be a very country-specific issue, but my perception is that excessive and widespread political polarization, with people acting like overconfident zealots in their respective political/cultural ideologies, is a much bigger issue all over the political spectrum nowadays than a focus on the Left would make it believe, as if the Left has some kind of problem that is totally specific to it. I don't notice that when I read comments and posts online and read the news. An increasingly large number of people on the Right side of politics are acting in a very militant, black-and-white fashion, and often resorting to downright dehumanization of the Left and other groups that they perceive as adversaries or even personal enemies. Maybe it's not so common in your country, but here where I live, in Brazil, this trend of people "acting religiously on their opinions" has been all over the place, but particularly stronger among right-wingers, the majority of whom are increasingly looking like actual extremist ideologues (sometimes literally "religious" about their political ideology, I have literally read people claiming that certain political leaders of the Brazilian Right are messengers sent by God, and that there is a "crusade" between God and Satan represented by the righteous Right vs. the satanic Left - I swear I'm not kidding).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That must be a very country-specific issue, but my perception is that excessive and widespread political polarization, with people acting like overconfident zealots in their respective political/cultural ideologies, is a much bigger issue all over the political spectrum nowadays than a focus on the Left would make it believe, as if the Left has some kind of problem that is totally specific to it. I don't notice that when I read comments and posts online and read the news. An increasingly large number of people on the Right side of politics are acting in a very militant, black-and-white fashion, and often resorting to downright dehumanization of the Left and other groups that they perceive as adversaries or even personal enemies. Maybe it's not so common in your country, but here where I live, in Brazil, this trend of people "acting religiously on their opinions" has been all over the place, but particularly stronger among right-wingers, the majority of whom are increasingly looking like actual extremist ideologues (sometimes literally "religious" about their political ideology, I have literally read people claiming that certain political leaders of the Brazilian Right are messengers sent by God, and that there is a "crusade" between God and Satan represented by the righteous Right vs. the satanic Left - I swear I'm not kidding).
    yes, when I see supporters of Bolsonaro, it seems to me quite a few are religious and dogmatic
    but I can assure you, here in western Europe, it is the other way around
    the left is not religious, but many of them are very dogmatic
    those religious and dogmatic in Brasil seem to act like that because they are raised with the idea they are right in their convictions
    here in Europe, school education during the last few decades has been heavily influenced by leftist administrators and teachers
    and the dogmatic left is convinced about what they were tought at school when they grew up

    apart from schools, the media play an important role too, and national televiosion used to be sponsored and partly managed by the government where the left used to have the majority
    religious authorities don't play a role in Europe any more, at least not with the natives

    if you have education and the media ..
    Fidel Castro is still a hero in his own country
    so are Stalin and Lenin, even though they killed more people than Hittler, and most of them were their own countrymen

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    “The earth is flat. Creationism is the correct science and not the theory of the evolution of species. Rock'n'roll was a KGB invention to destabilize the West and and stimulates drugs, sex, abortion and Satanism. Nazism is left-wing. Indigenous people need to integrate with society to become human. There was no military dictatorship in Brazil. Torturers are heroes and Pinochet saved Chile. Sex education must focus on sexual abstinence.”

    These are some of the pearls of thinking of the extreme right that governs Brazil today.

    God above all and save yourself if you can.

    OMG!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    “The earth is flat. Creationism is the correct science and not the theory of the evolution of species. Rock'n'roll was a KGB invention to destabilize the West and and stimulates drugs, sex, abortion and Satanism. Nazism is left-wing. Indigenous people need to integrate with society to become human. There was no military dictatorship in Brazil. Torturers are heroes and Pinochet saved Chile. Sex education must focus on sexual abstinence.”

    These are some of the pearls of thinking of the extreme right that governs Brazil today.

    God above all and save yourself if you can.

    OMG!!!!
    Slow down, I'm trying to get this down* . . . : ).

    * I think this is a Doonesbury reference

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    I know it's not funny, but I had an image of Elvis swinging his pelvis around and remembering that news reports from the time had people saying some of the same things. A famous tv host had to have him on the show (showing him only from the waist up) and tell everyone he was a nice, God-fearing boy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMmljYkdr-w

    To be fair, Jerry Lee Lewis also thought they were going to hell, not that he stopped singing it.

    Someone should tell these people rock and roll developed from blues and other heavily African influenced music. Also, so far as I know, the KGB isn't known for its rhythm.

    Someone should also tell them to aim for the horizon and let us watch what happens when they fall off.

    It's hard for me to credit that the Catholic Church, whose schools here in the U.S. all teach evolution, and where we have "rock masses", allows this crap to be put out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That must be a very country-specific issue, but my perception is that excessive and widespread political polarization, with people acting like overconfident zealots in their respective political/cultural ideologies, is a much bigger issue all over the political spectrum nowadays than a focus on the Left would make it believe, as if the Left has some kind of problem that is totally specific to it. I don't notice that when I read comments and posts online and read the news. An increasingly large number of people on the Right side of politics are acting in a very militant, black-and-white fashion, and often resorting to downright dehumanization of the Left and other groups that they perceive as adversaries or even personal enemies. Maybe it's not so common in your country, but here where I live, in Brazil, this trend of people "acting religiously on their opinions" has been all over the place, but particularly stronger among right-wingers, the majority of whom are increasingly looking like actual extremist ideologues (sometimes literally "religious" about their political ideology, I have literally read people claiming that certain political leaders of the Brazilian Right are messengers sent by God, and that there is a "crusade" between God and Satan represented by the righteous Right vs. the satanic Left - I swear I'm not kidding).
    Yes, true, it is country specific. I understand the issue with the extreme right wing in Brazil. But without knowing anything at all about Brazil, it seems clear to me, given the Spanish experience, that Brazilian politicians are amateurs, since they still have not found the Fountain of Youth: declaring oneself of the Left.

    This has many advantages: while an extreme right wing policy is really hard to sustain (you need police, etc, since people want to have sex, for example), if you tell "I am of the Left", all your sins are forgiven, despite how despicable human being you are.

    Every time I see I am surprised at how well it works. So, be assured that in a few years, these extreme right politicians in Brazil will be "destroyed" by attention-seeking psycopaths, arguing they are from the Left. Then, you will really know what repression is. And you will not be able to complain, since otherwise you will be accused of being a capitalist pig or something.

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    It should be on the front pages. And it wasn't for 15 years. And that was a political choice, as local police and city authorities kept it quiet.
    Just in Rotherham, a small size city of 100 000, of whom only 2/3rds are English, more than 1500 English girls felt pray to Pakistanic pedophilic gangs over a 15 year period(late 90s until 5 years ago).
    That's is at least 1 in 20 women of all ages, and if you exclude elderly and middle aged women, then the horrific magnitude of the problem is truly shown.
    That's far more than 1 in 10 young women. And if you break down further the ages, as they usually attacked girls between 9 and 15, you could be talking about up to one in 5 girls of those ages, at any time over the last 20 years, was raped by these animals.
    Do the Maths yourself.
    What's the age pyramid for english females?
    Something like that.
    thgvgetb.jpg
    So we are speaking about the victims as proportion of the 15 to 40 female population(all the girls that they were 10 5-6 years ago, and all the adult females that were at least 10 but below 15, 20 years ago), which are roughly 25% of the female population.
    By Rotherham Data, that is 9000 females. The victims were at least 1500. At least.

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    I am not a leftist but you have to stop accusing the left of condoning pedophilia. The problem was at a local level not at national party level. Where were the parents in all of this? Did they even know where their kids were?

    The state of Florida decided to put pedestrian crossings on the beachside community where I live. These pedestrian crossings are not at red lights but between lights. We never had a problem with people getting killed crossing Hwy A1A. You teach your kids how to cross the street in between lights. Well the state decided that we need protecting so they installed these pedestrian crossing lights at great expense and inconvenience. After couple of months we had a 12 year old girl killed at one of these crossings because she trusted that since she pressed the button and the lights were flashing that she was safe and she did not see the truck that was barreling towards her. Ultimately, you are responsible for your own safety and your children's. Teenagers will lie to you. Double check where they are. Limit their social media exposure.

    This should not be taken as excusing pedophilia, far from it. But we also have a responsibility to protect our kids and to teach them how not to get in vulnerable situations.
    Last edited by bigsnake49; 06-02-20 at 20:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    “The earth is flat. Creationism is the correct science and not the theory of the evolution of species. Rock'n'roll was a KGB invention to destabilize the West and and stimulates drugs, sex, abortion and Satanism. Nazism is left-wing. Indigenous people need to integrate with society to become human. There was no military dictatorship in Brazil. Torturers are heroes and Pinochet saved Chile. Sex education must focus on sexual abstinence.”

    These are some of the pearls of thinking of the extreme right that governs Brazil today.

    God above all and save yourself if you can.

    OMG!!!!
    Preach, Duarte. I don't think most people out there are really aware of the kind of lunatic beliefs and paranoid and radical statements that we have been listening to here. It seems like they simply decided that the kind of knowledge produced by reputable scholars, scientists and artists is "tainted" by their "modernist" and "leftist" credentials ("leftist" being any ideological leanings to the left ot the conservative alt-right, of course, that includes even the center-right groups) and is therefore "dangerous". It's a really worrisome situation, not just because of what it can cause in the short term, but mainly because of its possible long-term effects, creating an environment even less favorable to education, science, reasonability and intellectual progress than Brazil already has.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farstar View Post
    Yes, true, it is country specific. I understand the issue with the extreme right wing in Brazil. But without knowing anything at all about Brazil, it seems clear to me, given the Spanish experience, that Brazilian politicians are amateurs, since they still have not found the Fountain of Youth: declaring oneself of the Left.

    This has many advantages: while an extreme right wing policy is really hard to sustain (you need police, etc, since people want to have sex, for example), if you tell "I am of the Left", all your sins are forgiven, despite how despicable human being you are.

    Every time I see I am surprised at how well it works. So, be assured that in a few years, these extreme right politicians in Brazil will be "destroyed" by attention-seeking psycopaths, arguing they are from the Left. Then, you will really know what repression is. And you will not be able to complain, since otherwise you will be accused of being a capitalist pig or something.
    I'm not sure that's the case, though. We had a self-proclaimed leftist government for 13 years (2003-2016), often accused by the now ruling right-wing of being "communist" (total nonsense, obviously), and even though there were a lot of political and socioeoconomic issues during their tenure, I honestly can't say there was any remarkable repression against personal or public freedoms. In fact, never in Brazil's history had right-wing propaganda run as freely and ostensibly as during that time, including pretty extremist material.

    What took place in Brazil was quite the opposite of what you're saying based on the Spanish experience. Here, it was the "communist" (sic) leftist dominance that was completely destroyed by "attention-seeking psycopaths" linked to the alt-right who are very skilled in using political propaganda disguised as disinterested memes and news (mainly through the internet, using WhatsApp, Facebook, YouTube, Instagram etc.), and in resorting to all sorts of means, including controversial ones, to show off and get the attention of voters. And that's how they became popular (and populist) enough to go from 2-3% in the election survey of 2014-2015 to an electoral victory (55% of the valid votes) in 2018.

    My impression is that what you are describing is simply the modus operandi of the extremist populism, regardless if it's on the right or on the left of the ideological spectrum. They always dehumanize and demonize the "other" so much that saying someone is leftist or rightist (depending on the case) becomes a demeaning word on itself. That's not an exclusive trait of the Left. It's a typical effect of the extremist propaganda of populists with authoritarian leanings. And the right is full with such people, too, especially nowadays with the rise of the conservative alt-right in many countries.

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    There are totalitarians of the left as well as the right.

    Bernie Sanders' campaign manager was captured on a "hot" mic saying that right wing people would have to be sent to re-education camps and other horrific things. The radicals of the 1960s and 1970s proposed the same thing, and remnants of it were still around when I went to the university. It seems nothing has changed.

    Yes, we have some Neo-Nazi types around who propose things like that, but from what I've seen they're almost all lone wolves, young, with significant psychiatric disorders. I don't know of any of them in responsible positions in Republican circles.

    There's a difference.

    Of course, the young psychopath who acts out with a gun is splattered all over the headlines, whereas the Sanders' aide story made barely a ripple. That's either because the members of the "mainstream" media agree with him, or because they just want a Democrat to win so badly that they're content to bury it, hoping it's an anomaly.

    Also, what we have to contend with here, at least, is that the threat to free speech is not coming from the right, but from the left. Yale won't teach Art History because it was all created by white males? Awards should be given out not based on achievement but according to your group's proportion of the community? Scientists can't investigate whether there are IQ differences by group? Universities won't hire unless you sign a document saying you will do everything you can to promote diversity? In the 1950s, the same universities were making professors sign statements to the effect that they weren't Communists. Same behavior, different group is in power.

    I'm beyond sick of all of that. I don't want my damn doctor to have gotten a place in medical school because she helped fill a quota. Applications should be gender, race, color, and ethnicity neutral. We're not helping anyone by doing it any other way.

    I approach each situation on a case by case basis.

    I don't want "anyone" deciding what is "permissible" speech or a "permissible" line of inquiry. I don't want anyone "blackballed" because of their beliefs. So, whoever is doing it is wrong, whether of the right or left, and that's going to change depending on the time and place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There are totalitarians of the left as well as the right.

    Bernie Sanders' campaign manager was captured on a "hot" mic saying that right wing people would have to be sent to re-education camps and other horrific things. The radicals of the 1960s and 1970s proposed the same thing, and remnants of it were still around when I went to the university. It seems nothing has changed.

    Yes, we have some Neo-Nazi types around who propose things like that, but from what I've seen they're almost all lone wolves, young, with significant psychiatric disorders. I don't know of any of them in responsible positions in Republican circles.

    There's a difference.

    Of course, the young psychopath who acts out with a gun is splattered all over the headlines, whereas the Sanders' aide story made barely a ripple. That's either because the members of the "mainstream" media agree with him, or because they just want a Democrat to win so badly that they're content to bury it, hoping it's an anomaly.

    Also, what we have to contend with here, at least, is that the threat to free speech is not coming from the right, but from the left. Yale won't teach Art History because it was all created by white males? Awards should be given out not based on achievement but according to your group's proportion of the community? Scientists can't investigate whether there are IQ differences by group? Universities won't hire unless you sign a document saying you will do everything you can to promote diversity? In the 1950s, the same universities were making professors sign statements to the effect that they weren't Communists. Same behavior, different group is in power.

    I'm beyond sick of all of that. I don't want my damn doctor to have gotten a place in medical school because she helped fill a quota. Applications should be gender, race, color, and ethnicity neutral. We're not helping anyone by doing it any other way.

    I approach each situation on a case by case basis.

    I don't want "anyone" deciding what is "permissible" speech or a "permissible" line of inquiry. I don't want anyone "blackballed" because of their beliefs. So, whoever is doing it is wrong, whether of the right or left, and that's going to change depending on the time and place.
    BTW Sanders is not a Democrat, he is a Socialist. They are so afraid that he will run as a 3rd party candidate that they let him caucus with the Democrats. They will deal with him at the convention. He's the Democrat's Trump, a cantankerous old man with a populist message. In Sander's case it is climate change, universal health care, student debt, tax the super rich, bring jobs back by protectionist policies.

    BTW, the extreme white nationalist are not lone wolves. There are organized militias around in some of the western states.

    I pray for the old days without the rancor and the extreme positions and without 24hr news channels that keep fanning the flames on both sides. Manufactured outrage as a business model.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Actually, I think the current label is "Democratic Socialist". :)

    I don't care what people call it, as I suspect you don't care either; what I care about are the policy proposals.

    To my knowledge no whacko militia man from out west advocating putting people who disagree with him in camps has a senior position on the staff of a current presidential candidate.

    There's a long history of Marxist propaganda. I've been listening to it since I first went to listen to Herbert Marcuse. It hasn't changed.

    I don't want these 18-29 year old college students, which is Sanders' entire base going by the Iowa results, although maybe that isn't the best marker, becoming the Mao like Cultural Revolutionaries of America.

    As for the rancor between the parties, there have been other periods like this in American history, and we didn't need a 24 hour news cycle. Around the time of the Revolutionary War thousands of Loyalists felt they couldn't live here anymore, they were being harassed, and they moved to Canada. The pre-Civil War period was horrible, with duels, men in Congress attacking and seriously injuring each other in the halls of Congress itself, and then, ultimately, war. The atmosphere before WWI was also terrible.

    Maybe we were just spoiled by an unusually calm period. :)

    I agree, however, that I wish it weren't this way.

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    About the US I do not know, but in Europe while anybody having connections to the extreme right is boo-ed (I extremely support this position; see e.g. the recent case in German regional elections), connections to Communism are considered to be ok, and even positive. In Catalonia, we have a political party that sympathises with Communism and even Stalinism. Representatives of such a party have said so many times in the media, and nobody criticises them for that. There is a clear asymmetry here regarding tolerance towards totalitarianism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    The same thing happened in Greece @farstar. Now my family and I have known many Albanians that came to Greece for work. They are very hard workers that scrimped and saved and made something of themselves. Some of them became Greek citizens, others went back to Albania and bought houses and opened up shops. But it is the .5% of Albanian/Kossovars that came to Greece that brought violent crime to levels never seen in Greece. Before that, the only violent crimes were crimes of passion and in the modern era those were actually going down. So the reputation of Albanians/Kossovars now is of a violent race when only very few engage in such behavior.
    Its true that many Albanian criminals have committed various crimes in Greece. True also Greek government has shown Olympic patience about it. True also many criminals have paid dearly with their lives( over 30 killed while in jail). True Albanian government has not complained about those killings. False Greeks think Albanians are criminals. Over 400000 Albanians have friendship and good working relations with Greeks. Nature of Albanian crimes has been mostly narcotics or property thievery, rarely rapes or sexual crimes.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Asian, by which I assume South Asian gangs "groomed" young English girls for sexual abuse for years without repercussions out of fear it would damage "race relations". Officers were told to go look for offenders of other ethnic groups.

    This is political correctness gone amok and is an absolute disgrace. I hope whoever the incompetents and toadies were who promulgated this policy of neglect were that they all get sacked and prosecuted criminally.

    Disgusting; really disgusting.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ited-grooming/
    Yes, because in these cultures, if a woman/female doesn't dress modestly, I imagine in head to toe garment, she is the low hanging fruit that their religion will grant them access to. It doesn't matter if a man has chastity, just the female. However, here in the west, we need to keep pretending this is acceptable behaviour, else be labeled a racist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The Chinese with their concentration camps for Uighurs is an excellent example. Where is the condemnation in the UN? Where are the marches, and petitions, and calls for boycotts? Where is the acknowledgement and condemnation of the Saudis, who still practice slavery? There are Europeans who even turn a blind eye to Muslims practicing child marriage and female genital mutilation, but they want to outlaw kosher butchers.

    When the UN starts bleating about human rights, women's rights, children's rights, I feel my head exploding. What about how women are treated in Africa, what about the fact that in certain countries girls are disfigured for trying to go to school? Do they pass resolutions against those countries? That was a rhetorical question. They don't. It's all very selective, and against a country facing an existential threat.

    You can't make this freaking stuff up.

    If it were up to me I'd close the UN down tomorrow. Build some middle income housing or put up parking garages. It would be a much better use of that real estate.
    whats your opinion on trumps support for saudi arabia?
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/nat...rabia-n1026926

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farstar View Post
    About the US I do not know, but in Europe while anybody having connections to the extreme right is boo-ed (I extremely support this position; see e.g. the recent case in German regional elections), connections to Communism are considered to be ok, and even positive. In Catalonia, we have a political party that sympathises with Communism and even Stalinism. Representatives of such a party have said so many times in the media, and nobody criticises them for that. There is a clear asymmetry here regarding tolerance towards totalitarianism.
    maybe it's because the reasons to be far left are different than the reasons to be far right. both positions are unhealthy but they aren't the same.

    which party do you mean? if the connections to communism are something positive in catalonia i assume this party must be quite popular

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    A nation's foreign policy is, frankly, not normally a question of ethics, it's a tool for the advancement of a nation's self interest. During the American Revolution we received, and appreciated, French support, but they didn't do it because they liked us or liked democracy, they did it (that is, they used us) to get back at the British. That's the way it works. American support for Saudi Arabia is the same, and has been since Franklin Roosevelt. The problem has been to what extent our support for the Sauds is against our own interest, i.e. the spread of wahabism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    A nation's foreign policy is, frankly, not normally a question of ethics, it's a tool for the advancement of a nation's self interest. During the American Revolution we received, and appreciated, French support, but they didn't do it because they liked us or liked democracy, they did it (that is, they used us) to get back at the British. That's the way it works. American support for Saudi Arabia is the same, and has been since Franklin Roosevelt. The problem has been to what extent our support for the Sauds is against our own interest, i.e. the spread of wahabism.
    so basically morals do not count as long as it hurts us.
    is there critique on these politics in the U.S population? and from where does the critique come from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    so basically morals do not count as long as it hurts us.
    is there critique on these politics in the U.S population? and from where does the critique come from?
    I can't say I know what you mean, but if you're asking if we have robust debate in this country, well yeah, we do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    I can't say I know what you mean, but if you're asking if we have robust debate in this country, well yeah, we do.
    i mean, does this critique come from trump supporters?

    and regarding the moral matters as long as it doesn't go against our interests. maybe its rather morals only matter when it's in our interest.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...injiang-muslim

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    The critique has come from many sides, including supporters of the President. At the grass roots level the Saudis are not generally popular. Why would they be?

    As to the Uighurs, many nations have put national interest over ethics. Some nations ignore the issue because they like Chinese money (or are afraid of Chinese influence) and others publicly deplore it because they think it gives them leverage. As I said, foreign policy is interest, not ethics.

    During WWII Britain allied with the Soviet Union. Churchill had never had anything good to say about Stalin, but he made the strategic calculation that is was better to ally with the Soviets than let Hitler win. In foreign policy, everything is interest.

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