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Thread: New studies says that Anatolian IEs came from East

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    What I find implausible about Reich's South Caucasus hypothesis is that PIE clearly spread and diverged at least as late as the Copper Age, but the South Caucasus and even, in fact, the North Caucasus were already packed with ANF and some Iran_Neolithic ancestry by that time, but very little EHG admixture, whereas the PIE expansion seems to be related with a much more Progress or Vonyuchka-like genetic profile, that is, a mix of a "pure" CHG-related people with a lot of EHG-related people (in fact, the steppe admixture in most Europeans have more EHG than the average Yamnaya and Progress/Vonyuchka, suggesting some dilution from mixing with Sredny Stog II and Late Khvalynsk-like groups before spreading to other parts of Europe). Therefore, I still think a steppe origin just north of the Caucasus is more likely.

    And the presence of some small percentage of Progress/Vonyuchka-like admixture virtually everywhere in West Asia from Chalcolithic Anatolia to Chalcolithic Turkmenistan is really intriguing for me, though it could be explained by something else, like a higher than average ANE influence in those lands from older times (but it could also mean ancestry from a people with very similar genetic history to those presumably early PIE speakers in the Caucasus piedmont).
    Interestingly the two male samples of Progress, PG2001 and PG2004 are the one that were found as R1b-V1636, such as the one from Late Kura-Araxes. Coincidence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    In the extended datas Conservative and Speculative, CHG has at least more than 10% of Deep Ancestry and almost the same % of AG3 so ANE ancestry. So i might guess the 37% are ANE from Dzudzuana + AG3? But then where comes into that picture the Deep Ancestry?
    further in the supplements CHG is also modelled with 3 and 4 ancestors, but Dzudzuana and ANA remain the main components

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    further in the supplements CHG is also modelled with 3 and 4 ancestors, but Dzudzuana and ANA remain the main components
    What does ANA stands for? Ancient North African?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    What I find implausible about Reich's South Caucasus hypothesis is that PIE clearly spread and diverged at least as late as the Copper Age, but the South Caucasus and even, in fact, the North Caucasus were already packed with ANF and some Iran_Neolithic ancestry by that time, but very little EHG admixture, whereas the PIE expansion seems to be related with a much more Progress or Vonyuchka-like genetic profile, that is, a mix of a "pure" CHG-related people with a lot of EHG-related people (in fact, the steppe admixture in most Europeans have more EHG than the average Yamnaya and Progress/Vonyuchka, suggesting some dilution from mixing with Sredny Stog II and Late Khvalynsk-like groups before spreading to other parts of Europe). Therefore, I still think a steppe origin just north of the Caucasus is more likely.

    And the presence of some small percentage of Progress/Vonyuchka-like admixture virtually everywhere in West Asia from Chalcolithic Anatolia to Chalcolithic Turkmenistan is really intriguing for me, though it could be explained by something else, like a higher than average ANE influence in those lands from older times (but it could also mean ancestry from a people with very similar genetic history to those presumably early PIE speakers in the Caucasus piedmont).
    there was already U2,U4 and U5 mtDNA in the Caucasus

    Y & mtDNA statrs.jpg

    and R1b-V1636 was already in Transcaucasia Kura-Araxes

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    What does ANA stands for? Ancient North African?
    sorry, typo, it should have been ANE - anciant north eurasian

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    sorry, typo, it should have been ANE - anciant north eurasian
    Ok but the question now is, what was the Deep Ancestry in Iran_Neo? Clearly, CHG is not Iran_Neo right? And Dzudzuana and therefore ANF didn't have ( or not that much ) Deep Ancestry, so was the CHG in Steppe, CHG, Dzudzuana or Iran_Neo or even Something Else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    What I find implausible about Reich's South Caucasus hypothesis is that PIE clearly spread and diverged at least as late as the Copper Age, but the South Caucasus and even, in fact, the North Caucasus were already packed with ANF and some Iran_Neolithic ancestry by that time, but very little EHG admixture, whereas the PIE expansion seems to be related with a much more Progress or Vonyuchka-like genetic profile, that is, a mix of a "pure" CHG-related people with a lot of EHG-related people (in fact, the steppe admixture in most Europeans have more EHG than the average Yamnaya and Progress/Vonyuchka, suggesting some dilution from mixing with Sredny Stog II and Late Khvalynsk-like groups before spreading to other parts of Europe). Therefore, I still think a steppe origin just north of the Caucasus is more likely.

    And the presence of some small percentage of Progress/Vonyuchka-like admixture virtually everywhere in West Asia from Chalcolithic Anatolia to Chalcolithic Turkmenistan is really intriguing for me, though it could be explained by something else, like a higher than average ANE influence in those lands from older times (but it could also mean ancestry from a people with very similar genetic history to those presumably early PIE speakers in the Caucasus piedmont).
    dating PCA K=x.jpg

    do we have autosomal in the Caucasus prior to the eneolithic (>6.7 ka)?

    I think the Anatolian neolithic arrived not before the eneolithic in the Caucasus.
    Deduct the Anatolian neolithic in the Caucasus, and Caucasus and steppe become pretty similar

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    there was already U2,U4 and U5 mtDNA in the Caucasus

    Y & mtDNA statrs.jpg

    and R1b-V1636 was already in Transcaucasia Kura-Araxes
    The Progress R1b-V1636 individuals are dated 1000 years earlier than the Late Kura-Araxes one. The idea of Anatolian languages coming from Late KA, but originally from Piedmont of North Caucasus can make sense, and also explain the " archaism " of Anatolian Languages with others. But if this is what happened, we could argue that the entire Steppe spoked something related with each other and PIE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    further in the supplements CHG is also modelled with 3 and 4 ancestors, but Dzudzuana and ANA remain the main components
    Still Lazaridis is saying :

    " According to this model, a common population contributed ancestry to Gravettians (represented by Vestonice16) and to a “Common West Eurasian” population that contributed all the ancestry of Villabruna and most of the ancestry of Dzudzuana which also had 28.4±4.2% Basal Eurasian ancestry21 "

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Still Lazaridis is saying :
    " According to this model, a common population contributed ancestry to Gravettians (represented by Vestonice16) and to a “Common West Eurasian” population that contributed all the ancestry of Villabruna and most of the ancestry of Dzudzuana which also had 28.4±4.2% Basal Eurasian ancestry21 "
    Attachment 11811


    yes, dzudzuana is modelled 72 % Common West Eurasian and 28 % Basal Eursian
    IMO Common West Eurasian is haplo IJ when it split into I and J (43 ka)
    Vestonice is Common West Eurasian admixed with Kostenki-Sungir
    Magdalenian (El Miron cluster) is Common West Eurasian admixed with West-European Aurignacian (Goyet 35 ka)
    WHG (Villabruna cluster) is Common West Eurasian with some drift

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Attachment 11811


    yes, dzudzuana is modelled 72 % Common West Eurasian and 28 % Basal Eursian
    IMO Common West Eurasian is haplo IJ when it split into I and J (43 ka)
    Vestonice is Common West Eurasian admixed with Kostenki-Sungir
    Magdalenian (El Miron cluster) is Common West Eurasian admixed with West-European Aurignacian (Goyet 35 ka)
    WHG (Villabruna cluster) is Common West Eurasian with some drift
    Is it safe to label an ancestral component to specific haplogroups?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Is it safe to label an ancestral component to specific haplogroups?
    in this case, I think it is a good bet
    43 ka, and I guess in Transcaucasia, arrival of the first humans in what was Neanderthal territory before
    isolated from other modern humans
    I don't think much admixing happened there and then, but they thrived and expanded, some into Europe (Mezmayskaya 39 ka, also inhabited by Neanderthals before)

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