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Thread: Dodecad K12b Ancient Extended [by Eupedia Team]

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If the Moots paper taught us anything, it's that the "change" in the area of Rome started taking place in the time of the Republic, and was pretty complete by the Imperial Era. After that, in Late Antiquity to the Medieval period, the "tail to the Levant" disappeared.

    Whether that wasn't the case in the South is something which must wait for ancient dna from the South ranging from the Neolithic to the present day, and including the Medieval period during which the Muslims dominated Sicily for over two hundred years.

    I can say that my husband, whose account I manage, is mostly Calabrian (three-quarters). He is extremely close to many of the Imperial Era "Romans" found in the Moots sample, but not to the ones who place in the Levant. So, there's no evidence of any "open tap" which has continued to affect his genetics beyond that time, and his ancestry is from Reggio Calabria, so Sikeliot's musings about this supposed huge movement of Sicilians to Calabria certainly didn't affect him. (Fwiw, to my knowledge most of the migration was in the opposite direction, as when Calabrians went in to settle in Messina after it was destroyed in the earthquake.)

    Big changes in genomic structure come from folk migrations, not a few thousand refugees.

    Even the Longobardi, who did arrive as a folk migration, didn't make a huge dent in Italy. All one has to do is look at the ydna.

    I know of no evidence whatsoever for the movement of such large numbers of Greeks, either from the mainland or "Syria", that they could change the genetic composition of Southern Italians.

    These are the musings of people like Sikeliot, whatever name he goes by currently here, and maybe that racist mad man from Lombardia, but it's not science.
    @Angela, @ Palermo Trapani


    yes, it's true: the paper by Moots in the end concerns only the case of Rome. My imprecision, it was not the rule, is not a thing to generalize, but scrolling for example the late antiquity and Byzantine prosopographic lists a certain variety of allochthonous presences along the Peninsula is present (in the North as in the South), probably quite superficial but not even zero.
    I didn't want to marry the thesis of Sikeliotis & co, but only to show some hypotheses that are often proposed in Byzantine history and linguistics to justify the persistent and almost stainless "Greekness" (or close proximity to "Greekness") of the 'Southern Italy.
    Check the cards for example of various names in the Ethnicity section of the PBE by Martindale (list of Greek, Isaurian, Syrian) or in the List of locations (Sicily or other places ...).
    The most famous case is perhaps Pope Sergius I and his father Tiberius, Syrian natives, but first documented in Palermo


    Nothing apodictic, nothing definitive, but the Byzantinists split their brains over these matters :)


    http://www.storiaromanaebizantina.it...a-e-conflitti/

    http://www.pbe.kcl.ac.uk/data/index.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    @Angela, @ Palermo Trapani


    yes, it's true: the paper by Moots in the end concerns only the case of Rome. My imprecision, it was not the rule, is not a thing to generalize, but scrolling for example the late antiquity and Byzantine prosopographic lists a certain variety of allochthonous presences along the Peninsula is present (in the North as in the South), probably quite superficial but not even zero.
    I didn't want to marry the thesis of Sikeliotis & co, but only to show some hypotheses that are often proposed in Byzantine history and linguistics to justify the persistent and almost stainless "Greekness" (or close proximity to "Greekness") of the 'Southern Italy.
    Check the cards for example of various names in the Ethnicity section of the PBE by Martindale (list of Greek, Isaurian, Syrian) or in the List of locations (Sicily or other places ...).
    The most famous case is perhaps Pope Sergius I and his father Tiberius, Syrian natives, but first documented in Palermo


    Nothing apodictic, nothing definitive, but the Byzantinists split their brains over these matters :)


    http://www.storiaromanaebizantina.it...a-e-conflitti/

    http://www.pbe.kcl.ac.uk/data/index.htm

    Stuvane: No I took nothing in your post to be pushing this Sikeliot fellow and his toadies. For the record, I early on when I first registered here got caught up in a thread where this guy under an alias or one of his toadies got me into one these types of threads and I posted stuff that overlapped multiple forum topics into one post. My ignorance of the rules was my own fault for the record. As a result, I was sort of lumped in with this Sikeliot guy and his cohort, mistakenly and I can see why this fellow caught a lot of heat from the Advisors and Mods with his anti Sicilian and Southern Italian nonsense. I have no problem with honest discussion of DNA but it do it with legitimate academic research, not agendas based on pseudo Science. And I tend to stay in my own lane so to speak here on Eupedia. Mostly I stay with the ancient DNA stuff and DNA forums dealing with Italy only, sometimes Greek. If I get comfortable posting with someone who is not of Italian ancestry, then yes I may correspond with them. Two posters I enjoy discussing topics with are Carlos from Spain and Duarte From Brazil. As for Sikeliot and Company types, probably a good thing this guy is no longer here or Mods and Advisors have got him under control as my Sicilian temper might get the best of me (Americano-Siciliano that is). My favorite TV show is Commassario Montalbano and I would likely end up responding to that guy the way Montalbano does to his Deputy Mimi Augello when he gets ticked off at Mimi. I must confess, I know Luca the actor that Plays Montalbano is from Rome but he says that saying (which I will not say here) with a Sicilian flare!. If you watch the Show you know what I am getting at (hopefully I want get a minus for this). I have run into the thesis that Sikeliot and Co and people who push it on other blogs (ItalianAnthro is one) and Youtube videos so I have to watch my temper with those types. But like I said, I personally took nothing wrong in your post. You were among the first people here that I think I was able to discuss results with respect to these Ancient Samples that the Eupedia team put together so I appreciate that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Stuvane: No I took nothing in your post to be pushing this Sikeliot fellow and his toadies. For the record, I early on when I first registered here got caught up in a thread where this guy under an alias or one of his toadies got me into one these types of threads and I posted stuff that overlapped multiple forum topics into one post. My ignorance of the rules was my own fault for the record. As a result, I was sort of lumped in with this Sikeliot guy and his cohort, mistakenly and I can see why this fellow caught a lot of heat from the Advisors and Mods with his anti Sicilian and Southern Italian nonsense. I have no problem with honest discussion of DNA but it do it with legitimate academic research, not agendas based on pseudo Science. And I tend to stay in my own lane so to speak here on Eupedia. Mostly I stay with the ancient DNA stuff and DNA forums dealing with Italy only, sometimes Greek. If I get comfortable posting with someone who is not of Italian ancestry, then yes I may correspond with them. Two posters I enjoy discussing topics with are Carlos from Spain and Duarte From Brazil. As for Sikeliot and Company types, probably a good thing this guy is no longer here or Mods and Advisors have got him under control as my Sicilian temper might get the best of me (Americano-Siciliano that is). My favorite TV show is Commassario Montalbano and I would likely end up responding to that guy the way Montalbano does to his Deputy Mimi Augello when he gets ticked off at Mimi. I must confess, I know Luca the actor that Plays Montalbano is from Rome but he says that saying (which I will not say here) with a Sicilian flare!. If you watch the Show you know what I am getting at (hopefully I want get a minus for this). I have run into the thesis that Sikeliot and Co and people who push it on other blogs (ItalianAnthro is one) and Youtube videos so I have to watch my temper with those types. But like I said, I personally took nothing wrong in your post. You were among the first people here that I think I was able to discuss results with respect to these Ancient Samples that the Eupedia team put together so I appreciate that.
    @Palermo Trapani,

    I am the first to lean towards very local phenomena. (But sometimes my old academic deformations and reminiscences of my PhD wake up and they want to elbow around ;P )
    PS. I like very much Montalbano series. I'm a fan of Mimì Augello, but my absolute top is Dr. Pasquano, the late and irascible coroner

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    @Palermo Trapani,

    I am the first to lean towards very local phenomena. (But sometimes my old academic deformations and reminiscences of my PhD wake up and they want to elbow around ;P )
    PS. I like very much Montalbano series. I'm a fan of Mimì Augello, but my absolute top is Dr. Pasquano, the late and irascible coroner
    Dr. Pasquano is/was a great character, unfortunately Marcello Perracchio past away in 2017 and last summer both Andrea Camilleri and Sironi (Director of all the Movies) past away. I hope going forward the new movies with a new Director and Camilleri no longer available to consult are up the standard that was set in the past.

    As for the local phenomena, I agree. Angela mentioned the Antonio/Moots et al 2019 paper on ancient Romans and I think if a paper would do a longitudinal study in Sicily starting with the WHG Samples, the Sicilian Bell Beaker Sample (who had no Steppe), the Steppe admixture, then Pheonician/Greek/Roman era well into the Kingdom to Two Sicilies/Naples era, the results would be similar. 1)WHG for a long time then 2) EEF-Anatolian type ancestry dominates then 3) Some Steppe ancestry which in Sicily includes some CHG and Iran type ancestry and over time there are some subtle shifts here and there, etc. As Angela noted it would be good to see what happened during the Saracen period then what happened right after they were expelled and the Normans along with mainland Italian families came in with there Roman Rite Sons who were Priests and then some additional Greek/Albanian influx. So looking at the Sicilian data over a long time-series I think it would show again the same type pattern as the data from the Roman paper and the samples would plot within the same general area with some slight shifts here and there.

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    IMO, just looking at two cemeteries outside of the city of Rome, and claiming it says something about the peninsula as a whole, creates a tyranny of averages.

    Also, there are "Imperial Romans" that plot in Northern, and Southern Italian clusters; areas that are consistent in all ages, from the Iron age, to the present. Not just the extinct cluster.
    There can be no covenants between men and lions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    IMO, just looking at two cemeteries outside of the city of Rome, and claiming it says something about the peninsula as a whole, creates a tyranny of averages.

    Also, there are "Imperial Romans" that plot in Northern, and Southern Italian clusters; areas that are consistent in all ages, from the Iron age, to the present. Not just the extinct cluster.
    I didn't mean it as a statement of fact, more of a hypothesis. Just speaking of Sicily the sample from Palermo (Favignana, Grotta d Oriente) is a Western Hunter Gather (WHG) similar to what was all over Western Europe. Best I can tell the Sicilian Bell Beaker is mostly Neolithic Early European Farmer (EEF) maybe with some Iran Neolithic. Next the the recent paper by the Reich team documents Steppe Ancestry. Just my quick observation of the Antonio/Moots et al 2019 paper (Figure 2) which shows this basic pattern in Rome (WHG, then EEF and Iran Neolithic, then Steppe). The same pattern seems to be present in Sicily at least to Iron Age period. Whatever happened during that period up to the Imperial period as you said shows some Imperial Romans cluster with Northern Italians and some Southern. In Sicily there were the Phoenicians, Greeks and Romans (but there were already Italic tribes in Sicily before the Romans came in at the end of the 3rd Century BC). The Antonio/Moots paper documents a move Eastward during this period somewhat but not enough that it caused the Imperial Romans to cluster with non Modern Italian populations. It seems to me the significant majority of these ancient Imperial Roman samples cluster mostly in Figure 2 in a circle that includes all of Modern Italy, again some more North shifted, some more Southern Shifted. So I think as we get more samples, I would like to see Sicilian Time Series type analysis done from the Imperial Period to Modern similar to what Antonio/Moots et al did for Lazio-Rome. It would be good to see that done with other Italian samples from various regions using a longitudinal type analysis as well.

    Again, I did not mean to present anything I wrote in post #154 as a statement of fact, more of a hypothesis and thinking of how I would like to see future research papers address Italian genetic history overall, and in my case, Sicily in particular. Sorry if my post was cryptically written.

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    ^^I was actually referring more to the conclusion made by the authors of the paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^I was actually referring more to the conclusion made by the authors of the paper.

    Oh, my bad again. Well I agree I have issues with the conclusions in the Antonio/Moots et al 2019 paper and the recent paper on Steppe Ancestry into Sardinia/Sicily (Reich team) and some of there sample choices they used to fit models, and not properly explaining why and what the admixture of certain samples that were chosen. You correctly pointed out the Morocco_LN sample and Phoenician_Ibiza sample both cluster with ancient Greeks/Eastern Med Populations and if I remember both were used in at least one or both of those papers.

    Have a question, have you or Duarte run the Dodecad K12 Coordinates for the Morocco_EN, Morocco_LN and Ibiza_Phoenician samples?

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