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Thread: Dodecad K12b Ancient West Eurasia [by Eupedia Team]

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If the Moots paper taught us anything, it's that the "change" in the area of Rome started taking place in the time of the Republic, and was pretty complete by the Imperial Era. After that, in Late Antiquity to the Medieval period, the "tail to the Levant" disappeared.

    Whether that wasn't the case in the South is something which must wait for ancient dna from the South ranging from the Neolithic to the present day, and including the Medieval period during which the Muslims dominated Sicily for over two hundred years.

    I can say that my husband, whose account I manage, is mostly Calabrian (three-quarters). He is extremely close to many of the Imperial Era "Romans" found in the Moots sample, but not to the ones who place in the Levant. So, there's no evidence of any "open tap" which has continued to affect his genetics beyond that time, and his ancestry is from Reggio Calabria, so Sikeliot's musings about this supposed huge movement of Sicilians to Calabria certainly didn't affect him. (Fwiw, to my knowledge most of the migration was in the opposite direction, as when Calabrians went in to settle in Messina after it was destroyed in the earthquake.)

    Big changes in genomic structure come from folk migrations, not a few thousand refugees.

    Even the Longobardi, who did arrive as a folk migration, didn't make a huge dent in Italy. All one has to do is look at the ydna.

    I know of no evidence whatsoever for the movement of such large numbers of Greeks, either from the mainland or "Syria", that they could change the genetic composition of Southern Italians.

    These are the musings of people like Sikeliot, whatever name he goes by currently here, and maybe that racist mad man from Lombardia, but it's not science.
    @Angela, @ Palermo Trapani


    yes, it's true: the paper by Moots in the end concerns only the case of Rome. My imprecision, it was not the rule, is not a thing to generalize, but scrolling for example the late antiquity and Byzantine prosopographic lists a certain variety of allochthonous presences along the Peninsula is present (in the North as in the South), probably quite superficial but not even zero.
    I didn't want to marry the thesis of Sikeliotis & co, but only to show some hypotheses that are often proposed in Byzantine history and linguistics to justify the persistent and almost stainless "Greekness" (or close proximity to "Greekness") of the 'Southern Italy.
    Check the cards for example of various names in the Ethnicity section of the PBE by Martindale (list of Greek, Isaurian, Syrian) or in the List of locations (Sicily or other places ...).
    The most famous case is perhaps Pope Sergius I and his father Tiberius, Syrian natives, but first documented in Palermo


    Nothing apodictic, nothing definitive, but the Byzantinists split their brains over these matters :)


    http://www.storiaromanaebizantina.it...a-e-conflitti/

    http://www.pbe.kcl.ac.uk/data/index.htm

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    @Angela, @ Palermo Trapani


    yes, it's true: the paper by Moots in the end concerns only the case of Rome. My imprecision, it was not the rule, is not a thing to generalize, but scrolling for example the late antiquity and Byzantine prosopographic lists a certain variety of allochthonous presences along the Peninsula is present (in the North as in the South), probably quite superficial but not even zero.
    I didn't want to marry the thesis of Sikeliotis & co, but only to show some hypotheses that are often proposed in Byzantine history and linguistics to justify the persistent and almost stainless "Greekness" (or close proximity to "Greekness") of the 'Southern Italy.
    Check the cards for example of various names in the Ethnicity section of the PBE by Martindale (list of Greek, Isaurian, Syrian) or in the List of locations (Sicily or other places ...).
    The most famous case is perhaps Pope Sergius I and his father Tiberius, Syrian natives, but first documented in Palermo


    Nothing apodictic, nothing definitive, but the Byzantinists split their brains over these matters :)


    http://www.storiaromanaebizantina.it...a-e-conflitti/

    http://www.pbe.kcl.ac.uk/data/index.htm

    Stuvane: No I took nothing in your post to be pushing this Sikeliot fellow and his toadies. For the record, I early on when I first registered here got caught up in a thread where this guy under an alias or one of his toadies got me into one these types of threads and I posted stuff that overlapped multiple forum topics into one post. My ignorance of the rules was my own fault for the record. As a result, I was sort of lumped in with this Sikeliot guy and his cohort, mistakenly and I can see why this fellow caught a lot of heat from the Advisors and Mods with his anti Sicilian and Southern Italian nonsense. I have no problem with honest discussion of DNA but it do it with legitimate academic research, not agendas based on pseudo Science. And I tend to stay in my own lane so to speak here on Eupedia. Mostly I stay with the ancient DNA stuff and DNA forums dealing with Italy only, sometimes Greek. If I get comfortable posting with someone who is not of Italian ancestry, then yes I may correspond with them. Two posters I enjoy discussing topics with are Carlos from Spain and Duarte From Brazil. As for Sikeliot and Company types, probably a good thing this guy is no longer here or Mods and Advisors have got him under control as my Sicilian temper might get the best of me (Americano-Siciliano that is). My favorite TV show is Commassario Montalbano and I would likely end up responding to that guy the way Montalbano does to his Deputy Mimi Augello when he gets ticked off at Mimi. I must confess, I know Luca the actor that Plays Montalbano is from Rome but he says that saying (which I will not say here) with a Sicilian flare!. If you watch the Show you know what I am getting at (hopefully I want get a minus for this). I have run into the thesis that Sikeliot and Co and people who push it on other blogs (ItalianAnthro is one) and Youtube videos so I have to watch my temper with those types. But like I said, I personally took nothing wrong in your post. You were among the first people here that I think I was able to discuss results with respect to these Ancient Samples that the Eupedia team put together so I appreciate that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Stuvane: No I took nothing in your post to be pushing this Sikeliot fellow and his toadies. For the record, I early on when I first registered here got caught up in a thread where this guy under an alias or one of his toadies got me into one these types of threads and I posted stuff that overlapped multiple forum topics into one post. My ignorance of the rules was my own fault for the record. As a result, I was sort of lumped in with this Sikeliot guy and his cohort, mistakenly and I can see why this fellow caught a lot of heat from the Advisors and Mods with his anti Sicilian and Southern Italian nonsense. I have no problem with honest discussion of DNA but it do it with legitimate academic research, not agendas based on pseudo Science. And I tend to stay in my own lane so to speak here on Eupedia. Mostly I stay with the ancient DNA stuff and DNA forums dealing with Italy only, sometimes Greek. If I get comfortable posting with someone who is not of Italian ancestry, then yes I may correspond with them. Two posters I enjoy discussing topics with are Carlos from Spain and Duarte From Brazil. As for Sikeliot and Company types, probably a good thing this guy is no longer here or Mods and Advisors have got him under control as my Sicilian temper might get the best of me (Americano-Siciliano that is). My favorite TV show is Commassario Montalbano and I would likely end up responding to that guy the way Montalbano does to his Deputy Mimi Augello when he gets ticked off at Mimi. I must confess, I know Luca the actor that Plays Montalbano is from Rome but he says that saying (which I will not say here) with a Sicilian flare!. If you watch the Show you know what I am getting at (hopefully I want get a minus for this). I have run into the thesis that Sikeliot and Co and people who push it on other blogs (ItalianAnthro is one) and Youtube videos so I have to watch my temper with those types. But like I said, I personally took nothing wrong in your post. You were among the first people here that I think I was able to discuss results with respect to these Ancient Samples that the Eupedia team put together so I appreciate that.
    @Palermo Trapani,

    I am the first to lean towards very local phenomena. (But sometimes my old academic deformations and reminiscences of my PhD wake up and they want to elbow around ;P )
    PS. I like very much Montalbano series. I'm a fan of Mimì Augello, but my absolute top is Dr. Pasquano, the late and irascible coroner

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    @Palermo Trapani,

    I am the first to lean towards very local phenomena. (But sometimes my old academic deformations and reminiscences of my PhD wake up and they want to elbow around ;P )
    PS. I like very much Montalbano series. I'm a fan of Mimì Augello, but my absolute top is Dr. Pasquano, the late and irascible coroner
    Dr. Pasquano is/was a great character, unfortunately Marcello Perracchio past away in 2017 and last summer both Andrea Camilleri and Sironi (Director of all the Movies) past away. I hope going forward the new movies with a new Director and Camilleri no longer available to consult are up the standard that was set in the past.

    As for the local phenomena, I agree. Angela mentioned the Antonio/Moots et al 2019 paper on ancient Romans and I think if a paper would do a longitudinal study in Sicily starting with the WHG Samples, the Sicilian Bell Beaker Sample (who had no Steppe), the Steppe admixture, then Pheonician/Greek/Roman era well into the Kingdom to Two Sicilies/Naples era, the results would be similar. 1)WHG for a long time then 2) EEF-Anatolian type ancestry dominates then 3) Some Steppe ancestry which in Sicily includes some CHG and Iran type ancestry and over time there are some subtle shifts here and there, etc. As Angela noted it would be good to see what happened during the Saracen period then what happened right after they were expelled and the Normans along with mainland Italian families came in with there Roman Rite Sons who were Priests and then some additional Greek/Albanian influx. So looking at the Sicilian data over a long time-series I think it would show again the same type pattern as the data from the Roman paper and the samples would plot within the same general area with some slight shifts here and there.

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    IMO, just looking at two cemeteries outside of the city of Rome, and claiming it says something about the peninsula as a whole, creates a tyranny of averages.

    Also, there are "Imperial Romans" that plot in Northern, and Southern Italian clusters; areas that are consistent in all ages, from the Iron age, to the present. Not just the extinct cluster.
    There can be no covenants between men and lions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    IMO, just looking at two cemeteries outside of the city of Rome, and claiming it says something about the peninsula as a whole, creates a tyranny of averages.

    Also, there are "Imperial Romans" that plot in Northern, and Southern Italian clusters; areas that are consistent in all ages, from the Iron age, to the present. Not just the extinct cluster.
    I didn't mean it as a statement of fact, more of a hypothesis. Just speaking of Sicily the sample from Palermo (Favignana, Grotta d Oriente) is a Western Hunter Gather (WHG) similar to what was all over Western Europe. Best I can tell the Sicilian Bell Beaker is mostly Neolithic Early European Farmer (EEF) maybe with some Iran Neolithic. Next the the recent paper by the Reich team documents Steppe Ancestry. Just my quick observation of the Antonio/Moots et al 2019 paper (Figure 2) which shows this basic pattern in Rome (WHG, then EEF and Iran Neolithic, then Steppe). The same pattern seems to be present in Sicily at least to Iron Age period. Whatever happened during that period up to the Imperial period as you said shows some Imperial Romans cluster with Northern Italians and some Southern. In Sicily there were the Phoenicians, Greeks and Romans (but there were already Italic tribes in Sicily before the Romans came in at the end of the 3rd Century BC). The Antonio/Moots paper documents a move Eastward during this period somewhat but not enough that it caused the Imperial Romans to cluster with non Modern Italian populations. It seems to me the significant majority of these ancient Imperial Roman samples cluster mostly in Figure 2 in a circle that includes all of Modern Italy, again some more North shifted, some more Southern Shifted. So I think as we get more samples, I would like to see Sicilian Time Series type analysis done from the Imperial Period to Modern similar to what Antonio/Moots et al did for Lazio-Rome. It would be good to see that done with other Italian samples from various regions using a longitudinal type analysis as well.

    Again, I did not mean to present anything I wrote in post #154 as a statement of fact, more of a hypothesis and thinking of how I would like to see future research papers address Italian genetic history overall, and in my case, Sicily in particular. Sorry if my post was cryptically written.

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    ^^I was actually referring more to the conclusion made by the authors of the paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^I was actually referring more to the conclusion made by the authors of the paper.

    Oh, my bad again. Well I agree I have issues with the conclusions in the Antonio/Moots et al 2019 paper and the recent paper on Steppe Ancestry into Sardinia/Sicily (Reich team) and some of there sample choices they used to fit models, and not properly explaining why and what the admixture of certain samples that were chosen. You correctly pointed out the Morocco_LN sample and Phoenician_Ibiza sample both cluster with ancient Greeks/Eastern Med Populations and if I remember both were used in at least one or both of those papers.

    Have a question, have you or Duarte run the Dodecad K12 Coordinates for the Morocco_EN, Morocco_LN and Ibiza_Phoenician samples?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Here are all of the Scythian, Sarmatian, Cimmerian, and Srubnaya samples. This one was tricky to get, but I found away to get the files to convert. You had to save them to a desktop, rather than an individual folder. Idk why, but it made the software work correctly:

    Ancient genomes suggest the eastern Pontic-Caspian steppe as the source of western Iron Age nomads

    Krzewińska et al. 2018

    https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/10/eaat4457
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB27628


    Code:
    chy001_Sarmatian,22.69,8.21,0,0,13.39,40.51,3.2,0.68,0,0.12,11.2,0
    chy002_Sarmatian,25.87,8.68,0,0,12.38,37.73,0.98,0,0,5.7,7.85,0.82
    cim357_Cimmerian,17.43,8.06,0,1.02,16.1,42.32,3.11,0,0,1.06,10.9,0
    cim358_Cimmerian,22.58,11.12,0,3.04,8.31,32.3,3.23,1.43,0,5.24,12.76,0
    cim359_Cimmerian,13.81,23.13,0,1.62,7.05,33.66,3.7,0.01,0,12.42,3.99,0.62
    kzb001_Srubnaya,12.46,2.5,2.64,1.76,22.63,47.36,2.83,1.29,0,0.82,5.72,0
    kzb002_Srubnaya,21.09,3.59,0,0,18.79,54.68,0.81,0,0,0,0.91,0.12
    kzb003_Srubnaya,20.86,0.61,1.59,0,27.72,47.14,2.09,0,0,0,0,0
    kzb004_Srubnaya,9.17,8.33,0,0,24.07,58.42,0,0,0,0,0,0
    kzb005_Srubnaya,17.86,1.95,0,0,13.6,56.88,0,1.68,0,0,7.96,0.06
    kzb006_Srubnaya,18.13,1.71,0,0,22.3,51.06,1.34,0,0,0,4.15,1.3
    kzb007_Srubnaya,18.39,1.92,0,0,21.93,52.11,0,1.15,0,0,3.94,0.57
    kzb008_Srubnaya,19.26,2.85,0,0.02,14.65,56.62,0.35,1.24,0,0,4.84,0.16
    kzb009_Srubnaya,18.12,2.94,0,0,22.91,51.61,0,0,0.27,0,3.22,0.93
    mur001_Srubnaya,21.99,3.22,0,0,18.4,55.26,0,0,0,0,0.84,0.29
    mur002_Srubnaya,20.07,0.7,0,4.28,16.77,54.31,1.06,2.8,0,0,0,0
    mur003_Srubnaya,19.28,2.35,0,0,22.87,53.76,0,0,0,0,1.1,0.64
    mur004_Srubnaya,17.15,3.53,0,0,16.72,54.14,0,0,0,0,7.68,0.78
    scy006_Scythian,13.82,0,6.4,3.46,14.64,45.37,0,0,12.79,0,3.51,0
    scy009_Scythian,4.23,0,0.79,0,28.83,51.34,0,0.44,1.95,0,10.18,2.24
    scy010_Scythian,9.55,0,0,0,26.15,42.92,0.16,0,0.37,0.48,18.85,1.52
    scy011_Scythian,16.47,8.21,1.55,0,13.83,38.9,0,2.41,0.95,2.23,15.44,0
    scy192_Scythian,6.15,2.19,2.36,0,33.03,20.16,0.24,0,8.81,0,27.04,0
    scy193_Scythian,26.88,0.89,5.86,3.62,4.91,41.86,5.06,3.64,7.27,0,0,0
    scy197_Scythian,3.49,0.62,0.2,0,34.96,21.32,0,0.65,5.34,2.18,30.87,0.39
    scy300_Scythian,5.95,1.42,0,1.64,33.53,20.09,0,0,10.58,0,26.79,0
    scy301_Scythian,12.78,6.07,0,0,21.44,31.2,0.66,0,3.58,1.56,22.02,0.69
    scy303_Scythian,9.62,0.42,0,0,34.83,50.06,0,0,0,0,3.54,1.52
    scy304_Scythian,12.02,0,4.91,1.76,28.54,36.4,0.53,0.93,0,0,13.33,1.58
    scy305_Scythian,6.81,0.44,0,0.24,25.58,27.17,0,0,6.57,3.55,29.64,0
    scy311_Scythian,14.93,1.03,0,4.47,29.91,24.38,0,0,4.36,0.37,20.21,0.35
    scy332_Scythian,0,38.92,0,0,0,9.86,0,0,0,47.11,0,4.11
    tem001_Sarmatian,25.16,5.97,0,0,12.41,44.18,0,0,0,5.3,6.98,0
    tem002_Sarmatian,26.74,8.42,0,0.75,13.66,40.74,1.66,0,0,1.4,5.72,0.91
    tem003_Sarmatian,22.48,5.77,0,0,9.89,44.11,1.85,0,0,5.08,9.97,0.85

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here are all of the Scythian, Sarmatian, Cimmerian, and Srubnaya samples. This one was tricky to get, but I found away to get the files to convert. You had to save them to a desktop, rather than an individual folder. Idk why, but it made the software work correctly:

    Ancient genomes suggest the eastern Pontic-Caspian steppe as the source of western Iron Age nomads

    Krzewińska et al. 2018

    https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/10/eaat4457
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB27628


    Code:
    chy001_Sarmatian,22.69,8.21,0,0,13.39,40.51,3.2,0.68,0,0.12,11.2,0
    chy002_Sarmatian,25.87,8.68,0,0,12.38,37.73,0.98,0,0,5.7,7.85,0.82
    cim357_Cimmerian,17.43,8.06,0,1.02,16.1,42.32,3.11,0,0,1.06,10.9,0
    cim358_Cimmerian,22.58,11.12,0,3.04,8.31,32.3,3.23,1.43,0,5.24,12.76,0
    cim359_Cimmerian,13.81,23.13,0,1.62,7.05,33.66,3.7,0.01,0,12.42,3.99,0.62
    kzb001_Srubnaya,12.46,2.5,2.64,1.76,22.63,47.36,2.83,1.29,0,0.82,5.72,0
    kzb002_Srubnaya,21.09,3.59,0,0,18.79,54.68,0.81,0,0,0,0.91,0.12
    kzb003_Srubnaya,20.86,0.61,1.59,0,27.72,47.14,2.09,0,0,0,0,0
    kzb004_Srubnaya,9.17,8.33,0,0,24.07,58.42,0,0,0,0,0,0
    kzb005_Srubnaya,17.86,1.95,0,0,13.6,56.88,0,1.68,0,0,7.96,0.06
    kzb006_Srubnaya,18.13,1.71,0,0,22.3,51.06,1.34,0,0,0,4.15,1.3
    kzb007_Srubnaya,18.39,1.92,0,0,21.93,52.11,0,1.15,0,0,3.94,0.57
    kzb008_Srubnaya,19.26,2.85,0,0.02,14.65,56.62,0.35,1.24,0,0,4.84,0.16
    kzb009_Srubnaya,18.12,2.94,0,0,22.91,51.61,0,0,0.27,0,3.22,0.93
    mur001_Srubnaya,21.99,3.22,0,0,18.4,55.26,0,0,0,0,0.84,0.29
    mur002_Srubnaya,20.07,0.7,0,4.28,16.77,54.31,1.06,2.8,0,0,0,0
    mur003_Srubnaya,19.28,2.35,0,0,22.87,53.76,0,0,0,0,1.1,0.64
    mur004_Srubnaya,17.15,3.53,0,0,16.72,54.14,0,0,0,0,7.68,0.78
    scy006_Scythian,13.82,0,6.4,3.46,14.64,45.37,0,0,12.79,0,3.51,0
    scy009_Scythian,4.23,0,0.79,0,28.83,51.34,0,0.44,1.95,0,10.18,2.24
    scy010_Scythian,9.55,0,0,0,26.15,42.92,0.16,0,0.37,0.48,18.85,1.52
    scy011_Scythian,16.47,8.21,1.55,0,13.83,38.9,0,2.41,0.95,2.23,15.44,0
    scy192_Scythian,6.15,2.19,2.36,0,33.03,20.16,0.24,0,8.81,0,27.04,0
    scy193_Scythian,26.88,0.89,5.86,3.62,4.91,41.86,5.06,3.64,7.27,0,0,0
    scy197_Scythian,3.49,0.62,0.2,0,34.96,21.32,0,0.65,5.34,2.18,30.87,0.39
    scy300_Scythian,5.95,1.42,0,1.64,33.53,20.09,0,0,10.58,0,26.79,0
    scy301_Scythian,12.78,6.07,0,0,21.44,31.2,0.66,0,3.58,1.56,22.02,0.69
    scy303_Scythian,9.62,0.42,0,0,34.83,50.06,0,0,0,0,3.54,1.52
    scy304_Scythian,12.02,0,4.91,1.76,28.54,36.4,0.53,0.93,0,0,13.33,1.58
    scy305_Scythian,6.81,0.44,0,0.24,25.58,27.17,0,0,6.57,3.55,29.64,0
    scy311_Scythian,14.93,1.03,0,4.47,29.91,24.38,0,0,4.36,0.37,20.21,0.35
    scy332_Scythian,0,38.92,0,0,0,9.86,0,0,0,47.11,0,4.11
    tem001_Sarmatian,25.16,5.97,0,0,12.41,44.18,0,0,0,5.3,6.98,0
    tem002_Sarmatian,26.74,8.42,0,0.75,13.66,40.74,1.66,0,0,1.4,5.72,0.91
    tem003_Sarmatian,22.48,5.77,0,0,9.89,44.11,1.85,0,0,5.08,9.97,0.85
    My results:




  11. #161
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Distance to: Torziok12b
    10.92719543 scy192_Scythian
    11.37866424 scy300_Scythian
    11.73701410 scy311_Scythian
    12.83619102 scy197_Scythian
    14.00646279 scy305_Scythian
    16.18537612 scy304_Scythian
    17.29987861 scy301_Scythian
    19.10218836 scy010_Scythian
    27.20967107 scy009_Scythian
    28.74615279 scy011_Scythian
    28.98577410 scy303_Scythian
    29.43384277 kzb001_Srubnaya
    30.28082892 cim357_Cimmerian
    33.20941282 kzb003_Srubnaya
    33.38890834 chy001_Sarmatian
    34.13015822 kzb006_Srubnaya
    34.32554588 scy006_Scythian
    34.74650198 kzb009_Srubnaya
    35.17982518 kzb007_Srubnaya
    35.96522070 cim358_Cimmerian
    36.31048471 chy002_Sarmatian
    37.13595024 mur004_Srubnaya
    37.26386185 tem002_Sarmatian
    37.30820017 tem003_Sarmatian
    37.69555942 mur003_Srubnaya




    39.8 scy192_Scythian
    24.2 scy300_Scythian
    15.8 scy304_Scythian
    13.6 scy303_Scythian
    6.6 scy197_Scythian

  12. #162
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    my cousin ...she is from my paternal side ...she is closer ..........seems to be be mother side getting the closeness

    Distance to: TrentinoCles
    7.85726415 scy197_Scythian
    8.70577969 scy192_Scythian
    8.94655241 scy300_Scythian
    13.26567752 scy305_Scythian
    15.85937893 scy311_Scythian
    20.66576880 scy301_Scythian
    21.82181936 scy304_Scythian
    23.07017989 scy010_Scythian
    31.15605559 scy009_Scythian
    33.09582300 scy011_Scythian
    34.06267899 scy303_Scythian
    34.78304328 kzb001_Srubnaya
    35.29715003 cim357_Cimmerian
    38.54526430 chy001_Sarmatian
    39.49995570 kzb003_Srubnaya
    39.50365932 scy006_Scythian
    39.80757591 kzb006_Srubnaya
    40.31317030 cim358_Cimmerian
    40.43142837 kzb009_Srubnaya
    40.80034926 kzb007_Srubnaya
    41.69505127 chy002_Sarmatian
    42.18629635 mur004_Srubnaya
    42.36484628 tem003_Sarmatian
    42.94599166 tem002_Sarmatian
    43.39586847 tem001_Sarmatian


    70.6 scy197_Scythian
    18.0 scy300_Scythian
    11.4 scy303_Scythian

  13. #163
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    @Jovialis

    can you do these ancient swiss samples

    https://trace.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Trace...tudy=SRP250694

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    ^Sure, I'll see what I can do, thanks for the link.

  15. #165
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Done my Scythians


    Distance to: Dodecadk12bStuvanè

    5.19567128 scy192_Scythian
    5.64705233 scy300_Scythian
    8.05853585 scy197_Scythian
    10.79158932 scy305_Scythian
    13.98167730 scy311_Scythian
    18.54923179 scy301_Scythian
    21.73006213 scy304_Scythian
    23.45796240 scy010_Scythian
    31.36011320 scy011_Scythian
    32.28959585 scy009_Scythian
    34.12785080 cim357_Cimmerian
    34.69652576 kzb001_Srubnaya
    35.47595101 scy303_Scythian
    36.87101029 chy001_Sarmatian
    37.56804626 scy006_Scythian
    37.96383147 cim358_Cimmerian
    39.42665723 kzb003_Srubnaya
    39.61944093 kzb006_Srubnaya
    39.78438010 chy002_Sarmatian
    40.29729023 kzb009_Srubnaya
    40.62261070 kzb007_Srubnaya
    40.71274002 tem003_Sarmatian
    41.28396783 tem002_Sarmatian
    41.73612105 mur004_Srubnaya
    41.86091256 tem001_Sarmatian


    Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    Distance: 2.3304% / 2.33037350 | ADC: 0.25x
    46.0 scy192_Scythian
    33.4 scy300_Scythian
    11.0 scy009_Scythian
    9.6 scy197_Scythian

  16. #166
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks J :)




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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Clearly, Scythian is a multi-ethnic designation.

    Distance to: Angela
    8.27433985 scy197_Scythian
    8.83698478 scy192_Scythian
    9.50336256 scy300_Scythian
    17.91613798 scy311_Scythian
    18.11062395 scy305_Scythian
    25.59229767 scy301_Scythian
    26.90442900 scy304_Scythian
    30.01286224 scy010_Scythian
    38.40274860 scy009_Scythian
    38.49088983 scy011_Scythian
    39.91316324 scy303_Scythian
    40.81249441 cim357_Cimmerian
    40.89165685 kzb001_Srubnaya
    43.35175544 chy001_Sarmatian
    44.08333472 cim358_Cimmerian
    44.29896839 kzb003_Srubnaya
    45.50706978 scy006_Scythian
    45.72603416 kzb006_Srubnaya
    45.81639881 chy002_Sarmatian
    46.36033757 kzb009_Srubnaya
    46.80573042 kzb007_Srubnaya
    47.30932361 tem002_Sarmatian
    47.64050902 tem003_Sarmatian
    48.36738467 tem001_Sarmatian
    48.69347903 mur004_Srubnaya

    Closest modern population to my two best matches:

    Distance to: scy197_Scythian
    6.50429089 Italy_Romagna
    7.27741012 Italy_Marche
    7.48716569 Italy_Tuscany
    7.66083572 Italy_Lazio
    8.36653040 Italy_Emilia
    9.14755705 Albanian_Kosovo
    9.22685732 France_Corsica
    9.27352199 Italy_Liguria
    9.62437011 Albanian_North
    10.63150740 Italy_Lombardy
    10.63743434 Italy_Veneto
    10.98316894 Greek
    11.20703965 Italy_Abruzzo
    11.66363014 Italy_Piedmont
    12.56188680 Turk_Macedonia
    12.67955425 Italy_FriuliVG
    12.70763424 Italy_Apulia
    13.41172644 Italy_Campania
    13.69688286 Turk_Greece
    13.84070853 Swiss_Italian
    14.37500678 Italy_Trentino
    14.51107508 Gagauz
    14.53967348 Italy_Sicily
    15.47337067 Macedonian
    16.77276690 Italy_Calabria

    Distance to: scy192_Scythian
    2.90891732 Italy_Romagna
    3.31831644 Italy_Lazio
    3.41690474 Italy_Marche
    5.16991199 Italy_Tuscany
    6.63997523 Italy_Emilia
    7.27998723 Italy_Liguria
    7.87435686 France_Corsica
    8.50234085 Albanian_Kosovo
    8.64415327 Italy_Abruzzo
    9.53821262 Albanian_North
    9.87368884 Italy_Veneto
    9.92527179 Italy_Piedmont
    10.04034350 Italy_Lombardy
    10.36420803 Italy_Apulia
    11.16022114 Italy_FriuliVG
    11.19733004 Turk_Macedonia
    11.38685057 Italy_Campania
    11.59306689 Turk_Greece
    11.71316972 Italy_Sicily
    12.21097867 Greek
    13.43338053 Swiss_Italian
    13.52782688 Gagauz
    13.82780171 Italy_Trentino
    14.61846435 Turk_Romania
    14.62992326 Italy_Calabria

    My worst Scythian match:
    Distance to: scy303_Scythian
    6.27656753 Norwegian
    6.52972434 Dutch
    7.53361135 German
    7.73222478 Mixed_Germanic
    7.82925922 Swedish
    8.68327703 CEU30
    8.89747717 English
    9.04142135 Orkney
    9.06340444 British_Isles
    9.38271283 Argyll
    9.54715664 Kent
    9.89339679 Orcadian
    10.27437103 Irish
    11.28349680 British
    11.88256285 Cornwall
    16.32113048 Hungarians
    16.94028925 French
    17.62272113 French
    19.70687190 Croat
    21.18208677 Bosnian
    23.08905801 Polish
    25.59175235 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    26.77794988 Mixed_Slav
    27.43846388 Ukranians
    27.55617717 Tatar_Kazan

    They must have picked up more EEF like people or mixed people along the way into western Europe. The Sarmatians were not at all as inclusive.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  18. #168
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Clearly, Scythian is a multi-ethnic designation.
    Indeed, the dark green squares are Scythians:


  19. #169
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    thanks jovialis

    i am not close to them at all .....
    Distance to: adam
    13.82457233 scy192_Scythian
    14.40325658 scy300_Scythian
    15.92065325 scy305_Scythian
    17.04597900 scy197_Scythian
    21.41811149 scy311_Scythian
    23.80827167 scy301_Scythian
    32.99629979 scy304_Scythian
    34.65056421 scy010_Scythian
    35.90271995 scy011_Scythian
    38.90588259 cim358_Cimmerian
    40.75740424 cim357_Cimmerian
    41.42351265 chy001_Sarmatian
    43.48882960 chy002_Sarmatian
    44.27517250 scy006_Scythian
    45.15418253 tem003_Sarmatian
    45.19227036 kzb001_Srubnaya
    45.57104563 scy009_Scythian
    46.06873343 tem002_Sarmatian
    46.98691307 tem001_Sarmatian
    49.05645421 cim359_Cimmerian
    49.61631687 kzb006_Srubnaya
    49.62143388 scy303_Scythian
    50.11595854 kzb003_Srubnaya
    50.35501564 mur004_Srubnaya
    50.50050693 kzb009_Srubnaya

  20. #170
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Buona Pasqua a tutti: My Single Distances Scy 192 and Scy300 are my best 2, both < 10, and the only 2 that show up in the single tab results. SC 197 is in the 10-15 range (12.88) and then one at 16.7 (Scy305), everything else > 20. Thanks again Jovialis for your hard work

    Distance to: PalermoTrapani
    9.64176851 scy192_Scythian
    9.83474962 scy300_Scythian
    12.88004270 scy197_Scythian
    16.71679694 scy305_Scythian
    20.23002224 scy311_Scythian
    25.63240722 scy301_Scythian
    32.38220345 scy304_Scythian
    34.90977943 scy010_Scythian
    38.60798363 scy011_Scythian
    42.25677224 cim358_Cimmerian
    42.68582786 cim357_Cimmerian
    43.98668094 chy001_Sarmatian
    44.96534777 scy009_Scythian
    45.59871051 kzb001_Srubnaya
    45.91385194 scy006_Scythian
    46.01443035 chy002_Sarmatian
    48.00665475 tem003_Sarmatian
    48.14089114 scy303_Scythian
    48.29581245 tem002_Sarmatian
    49.39169465 tem001_Sarmatian
    49.92060897 kzb003_Srubnaya
    50.29634380 kzb006_Srubnaya
    51.08110120 kzb009_Srubnaya
    51.29574836 kzb007_Srubnaya
    51.36883880 cim359_Cimmerian
    51.95131471 mur004_Srubnaya
    54.08736266 scy193_Scythian
    54.15616216 mur003_Srubnaya
    54.94479229 kzb005_Srubnaya
    56.16210466 kzb002_Srubnaya
    56.16294152 kzb008_Srubnaya
    56.66215668 mur002_Srubnaya
    56.91261284 mur001_Srubnaya
    57.41231227 kzb004_Srubnaya
    76.88158362 scy332_Scythian

    Target: PalermoTrapani
    Distance: 9.6418% / 9.64176851 | ADC: 2x
    100.0 scy192_Scythian


    Target: PalermoTrapani
    Distance: 9.5780% / 9.57803907 | ADC: 1x
    80.2 scy192_Scythian
    19.8 scy300_Scythian


    Target: PalermoTrapani
    Distance: 9.5643% / 9.56433510 | ADC: 0.5x
    69.0 scy192_Scythian
    31.0 scy300_Scythian



    Target: PalermoTrapani
    Distance: 9.5634% / 9.56342324 | ADC: 0.25x
    66.0 scy192_Scythian
    34.0 scy300_Scythian
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 11-04-20 at 18:52. Reason: clarification

  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here are all of the Scythian, Sarmatian, Cimmerian, and Srubnaya samples. This one was tricky to get, but I found away to get the files to convert. You had to save them to a desktop, rather than an individual folder. Idk why, but it made the software work correctly:

    Ancient genomes suggest the eastern Pontic-Caspian steppe as the source of western Iron Age nomads

    Krzewińska et al. 2018

    https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/10/eaat4457
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB27628


    Code:
    chy001_Sarmatian,22.69,8.21,0,0,13.39,40.51,3.2,0.68,0,0.12,11.2,0
    chy002_Sarmatian,25.87,8.68,0,0,12.38,37.73,0.98,0,0,5.7,7.85,0.82
    cim357_Cimmerian,17.43,8.06,0,1.02,16.1,42.32,3.11,0,0,1.06,10.9,0
    cim358_Cimmerian,22.58,11.12,0,3.04,8.31,32.3,3.23,1.43,0,5.24,12.76,0
    cim359_Cimmerian,13.81,23.13,0,1.62,7.05,33.66,3.7,0.01,0,12.42,3.99,0.62
    kzb001_Srubnaya,12.46,2.5,2.64,1.76,22.63,47.36,2.83,1.29,0,0.82,5.72,0
    kzb002_Srubnaya,21.09,3.59,0,0,18.79,54.68,0.81,0,0,0,0.91,0.12
    kzb003_Srubnaya,20.86,0.61,1.59,0,27.72,47.14,2.09,0,0,0,0,0
    kzb004_Srubnaya,9.17,8.33,0,0,24.07,58.42,0,0,0,0,0,0
    kzb005_Srubnaya,17.86,1.95,0,0,13.6,56.88,0,1.68,0,0,7.96,0.06
    kzb006_Srubnaya,18.13,1.71,0,0,22.3,51.06,1.34,0,0,0,4.15,1.3
    kzb007_Srubnaya,18.39,1.92,0,0,21.93,52.11,0,1.15,0,0,3.94,0.57
    kzb008_Srubnaya,19.26,2.85,0,0.02,14.65,56.62,0.35,1.24,0,0,4.84,0.16
    kzb009_Srubnaya,18.12,2.94,0,0,22.91,51.61,0,0,0.27,0,3.22,0.93
    mur001_Srubnaya,21.99,3.22,0,0,18.4,55.26,0,0,0,0,0.84,0.29
    mur002_Srubnaya,20.07,0.7,0,4.28,16.77,54.31,1.06,2.8,0,0,0,0
    mur003_Srubnaya,19.28,2.35,0,0,22.87,53.76,0,0,0,0,1.1,0.64
    mur004_Srubnaya,17.15,3.53,0,0,16.72,54.14,0,0,0,0,7.68,0.78
    scy006_Scythian,13.82,0,6.4,3.46,14.64,45.37,0,0,12.79,0,3.51,0
    scy009_Scythian,4.23,0,0.79,0,28.83,51.34,0,0.44,1.95,0,10.18,2.24
    scy010_Scythian,9.55,0,0,0,26.15,42.92,0.16,0,0.37,0.48,18.85,1.52
    scy011_Scythian,16.47,8.21,1.55,0,13.83,38.9,0,2.41,0.95,2.23,15.44,0
    scy192_Scythian,6.15,2.19,2.36,0,33.03,20.16,0.24,0,8.81,0,27.04,0
    scy193_Scythian,26.88,0.89,5.86,3.62,4.91,41.86,5.06,3.64,7.27,0,0,0
    scy197_Scythian,3.49,0.62,0.2,0,34.96,21.32,0,0.65,5.34,2.18,30.87,0.39
    scy300_Scythian,5.95,1.42,0,1.64,33.53,20.09,0,0,10.58,0,26.79,0
    scy301_Scythian,12.78,6.07,0,0,21.44,31.2,0.66,0,3.58,1.56,22.02,0.69
    scy303_Scythian,9.62,0.42,0,0,34.83,50.06,0,0,0,0,3.54,1.52
    scy304_Scythian,12.02,0,4.91,1.76,28.54,36.4,0.53,0.93,0,0,13.33,1.58
    scy305_Scythian,6.81,0.44,0,0.24,25.58,27.17,0,0,6.57,3.55,29.64,0
    scy311_Scythian,14.93,1.03,0,4.47,29.91,24.38,0,0,4.36,0.37,20.21,0.35
    scy332_Scythian,0,38.92,0,0,0,9.86,0,0,0,47.11,0,4.11
    tem001_Sarmatian,25.16,5.97,0,0,12.41,44.18,0,0,0,5.3,6.98,0
    tem002_Sarmatian,26.74,8.42,0,0.75,13.66,40.74,1.66,0,0,1.4,5.72,0.91
    tem003_Sarmatian,22.48,5.77,0,0,9.89,44.11,1.85,0,0,5.08,9.97,0.85
    The term Scythian of these samples represents the Getae-Thracian group in NW black sea area and the Cimmerians as NE black sea lands

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^Sure, I'll see what I can do, thanks for the link.
    below is the Ydna found from these neolithic swiss

    Aesch1 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch4 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch6 G2a2a-Z6484
    Aesch7 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch12 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch13 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch14 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch17 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch19 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch20 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch21 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch22 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch23 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch24 G2a2a-Z6484
    Aesch25 R1b-L151* (xP312,U106)
    MX150 G2a2a-L91
    MX182 G2a2a-PF3239
    MX183 G2a2a-PF3239
    MX187 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX188 I2a1a2-Y3104*
    MX190 I2a1a2-Y3104*
    MX191 I2a1a2-Y3104*
    MX192 I2a1a2-Y3104*
    MX195 I2a1a2a-pre-L161?
    MX204 G2a2a-Z6484
    MX209 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX210 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX211 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX212 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX213 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX219 G2a2a-PF3147
    MX252 R1b-L2
    MX254_2 R1b-L2
    MX257 R1b-L2
    MX258 R1b-P312
    MX259 R1b-P312
    MX265 R1a-M458
    MX270 R1b-L20
    MX275 R1b-L2
    MX279 R1b-L2
    MX283 R1b-L2
    MX286 R1b-L2
    MX288 R1b-L2
    SNPRA58 G2a2a-Z6484
    SNPRA61 G2a2a-pre-L166
    SNPRA62 G2a2a-pre-L166
    SNPRA63 R1b-L2
    SNPRA64 R1b-L2
    SX10 G2a2a-L166
    SX11 G2a2b-PF3345*
    SX20 R1b-P312
    SX29 I2a1a2-M423 (xL621)
    SX32 R1b-L52 (xP312,U106)
    SX33 I2a1a2a-L161

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    below is the Ydna found from these neolithic swiss

    Aesch1 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch4 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch6 G2a2a-Z6484
    Aesch7 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch12 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch13 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch14 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch17 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch19 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch20 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch21 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch22 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch23 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch24 G2a2a-Z6484
    Aesch25 R1b-L151* (xP312,U106)
    MX150 G2a2a-L91
    MX182 G2a2a-PF3239
    MX183 G2a2a-PF3239
    MX187 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX188 I2a1a2-Y3104*
    MX190 I2a1a2-Y3104*
    MX191 I2a1a2-Y3104*
    MX192 I2a1a2-Y3104*
    MX195 I2a1a2a-pre-L161?
    MX204 G2a2a-Z6484
    MX209 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX210 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX211 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX212 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX213 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX219 G2a2a-PF3147
    MX252 R1b-L2
    MX254_2 R1b-L2
    MX257 R1b-L2
    MX258 R1b-P312
    MX259 R1b-P312
    MX265 R1a-M458
    MX270 R1b-L20
    MX275 R1b-L2
    MX279 R1b-L2
    MX283 R1b-L2
    MX286 R1b-L2
    MX288 R1b-L2
    SNPRA58 G2a2a-Z6484
    SNPRA61 G2a2a-pre-L166
    SNPRA62 G2a2a-pre-L166
    SNPRA63 R1b-L2
    SNPRA64 R1b-L2
    SX10 G2a2a-L166
    SX11 G2a2b-PF3345*
    SX20 R1b-P312
    SX29 I2a1a2-M423 (xL621)
    SX32 R1b-L52 (xP312,U106)
    SX33 I2a1a2a-L161
    Thank you, torzio.
    Curiously, lots of G2a2a (uncommon in the area nowadays) and just a single G2a2b (more common nowadays).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Thank you, torzio.
    Curiously, lots of G2a2a (uncommon in the area nowadays) and just a single G2a2b (more common nowadays).
    It usually is seen along the Rhine , belgium , flanders and in old german area

    Halberstadt in Germany

    G2a2a1-PF3170 and negative for subgroups is found in an ancient skeleton dated about 7000 years old, in a man buried in Halberstadt, Germany. sample I0659 from grave #35

    near where they found the 3 x T1a1 ydna in Karlsdorf ...same time period ...........and also with ydna H


    some have this theory below ...........note also the L497 areas


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    It usually is seen along the Rhine , belgium , flanders and in old german area

    Halberstadt in Germany

    G2a2a1-PF3170 and negative for subgroups is found in an ancient skeleton dated about 7000 years old, in a man buried in Halberstadt, Germany. sample I0659 from grave #35

    near where they found the 3 x T1a1 ydna in Karlsdorf ...same time period ...........and also with ydna H


    some have this theory below ...........note also the L497 areas

    Interesting hypotheses. Thanks for sharing.
    Indeed, there would have been more than one route and more than one wave in Neolithic, from Anatolia. IIRC, Cardial (Mediterranean route) was poor in G-P303, like the first wave through the so-called Danubian route, whereas the second wave would be rich in G-P303. I'd have to revisit the old papers to confirm it. :)

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