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Thread: massacre in 7,3 ka Els Trocs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I respect your point of view; I just don't share it. I still maintain that different countries react differently when leaders push for extermination of groups of people. That's why Italy was so different from Germany during World War II. I'm confident of that, and I don't think I'm unduly influenced by the fact that so many of the horrors inflicted on Italians by the Germans took place in my own area, and that one of my distant cousins was sent to a concentration camp. I reveal all that in the interest of full disclosure.

    If you don't see that, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

    Usually, I hope, when I sound harsh it's not in response to some genuine, agenda free poster with whom I just happen to disagree. After more years than I care to count in this field and on this site I know the posters, even when they are trying to disguise their identities by using sock accounts. You can't hide your "voice", if you know what I mean: your preoccupations, turns of phrase, etc. Sometimes they just list whole sentences from things they've posted before under other names. So, I give them short shrift.

    I never mean to do that to honest posters like you. :) I'll try to be more conscious of that with "unknown" posters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I respect your point of view; I just don't share it. I still maintain that different countries react differently when leaders push for extermination of groups of people. That's why Italy was so different from Germany during World War II. I'm confident of that, and I don't think I'm unduly influenced by the fact that so many of the horrors inflicted on Italians by the Germans took place in my own area, and that one of my distant cousins was sent to a concentration camp. I reveal all that in the interest of full disclosure.

    If you don't see that, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

    Usually, I hope, when I sound harsh it's not in response to some genuine, agenda free poster with whom I just happen to disagree. After more years than I care to count in this field and on this site I know the posters, even when they are trying to disguise their identities by using sock accounts. You can't hide your "voice", if you know what I mean: your preoccupations, turns of phrase, etc. Sometimes they just list whole sentences from things they've posted before under other names. So, I give them short shrift.

    I never mean to do that to honest posters like you. :) I'll try to be more conscious of that with "unknown" posters.
    :)

    Let me agree with you on the fact that different countries react differently, I didn't say that this wasn't true. I had casualties in my own family, murdered by the fascist regime. I could also hate. However, I see that there's not just one blood thirsty nation with monopoly on brutality. There's also no excuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    What's at play here? Is it more territorialism, more hatred of the other? Is it a character trait where people are more often blindly obedient to any authority figures? Is it the presence of more people who lack empathy? Is it a question of group loyalty versus individual connections, i.e. the Jewish grocer down the street who has always been kind to you?

    All I know is that there are definite differences.
    so your theory is that germans are genetically or culturally more prone to killing innocents? since culture is tied to genetics for you i assume you place emphasis on genetics. maybe that is the case maybe not. i'll try to give some more possible explanations for those differences between the treatments of jewish people in germany, or to some extent eastern europe, and italy.

    first the numbers. there were living around 500'000 jewish people in germany in 1930 mostly concentrated in the big cities. there were around 50'000 jewish people living in italy. maybe the jewish community was more visible in germany than in italy due to this.

    then there was germany's defeat in WW1 and all the repressions that came with it. the jews were one of the groups, another one were the socialists, which were held responsible for the defeat. already during the war one accusation was that the jewish men were physically inferior and unfit for beeing soldiers. many believed the jewish men were shirkers who used excuses money and connections to get away from the war. a census of the army was made and the results were not made public because it would be dangerous for the jewish community. nowadays we know that many jewish german people fought at the front and died for germany like all the others but back then this propaganda was increasing antisemitism in germany more and more. italy was neutral during WW1 so there was no need for a black sheep.

    and another explanation, could be that the jewish people who lived in italy were phenotypically not as different from the non-jewish italians around them as german jews were from the other germans. so maybe it was way harder to create an antisemitic sentiment among the italians and make them cold or racist against jewish people because ethnically the overlap between the two groups was bigger than it was the case in germany.

    now when it comes to punitive actions against civilians, including women and children, on occupied territory italy was far away from beeing innocent. someone like Graziani would have at least deserved a death sentence instead he was sitting in a prison for 4 months. Roatta too, he was responsible for the death of thousands of civilians. he was sentenced to life imprisonment and fled to spain. in 1948 his sentence was revoked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    so your theory is that germans are genetically or culturally more prone to killing innocents? since culture is tied to genetics for you i assume you place emphasis on genetics. maybe that is the case maybe not. i'll try to give some more possible explanations for those differences between the treatments of jewish people in germany, or to some extent eastern europe, and italy.

    first the numbers. there were living around 500'000 jewish people in germany in 1930 mostly concentrated in the big cities. there were around 50'000 jewish people living in italy. maybe the jewish community was more visible in germany than in italy due to this.

    then there was germany's defeat in WW1 and all the repressions that came with it. the jews were one of the groups, another one were the socialists, which were held responsible for the defeat. already during the war one accusation was that the jewish men were physically inferior and unfit for beeing soldiers. many believed the jewish men were shirkers who used excuses money and connections to get away from the war. a census of the army was made and the results were not made public because it would be dangerous for the jewish community. nowadays we know that many jewish german people fought at the front and died for germany like all the others but back then this propaganda was increasing antisemitism in germany more and more. italy was neutral during WW1 so there was no need for a black sheep.

    and another explanation, could be that the jewish people who lived in italy were phenotypically not as different from the non-jewish italians around them as german jews were from the other germans. so maybe it was way harder to create an antisemitic sentiment among the italians and make them cold or racist against jewish people because ethnically the overlap between the two groups was bigger than it was the case in germany.

    now when it comes to punitive actions against civilians, including women and children, on occupied territory italy was far away from beeing innocent. someone like Graziani would have at least deserved a death sentence instead he was sitting in a prison for 4 months. Roatta too, he was responsible for the death of thousands of civilians. he was sentenced to life imprisonment and fled to spain. in 1948 his sentence was revoked.
    As always you bring up irrelevancies or straw man arguments.

    Who the hell says Italy was totally innocent of any wrongdoing during the war? I already pointed that out when talking about the bombing of Ethiopia, and also when I pointed out that after the establishment of the Salo' puppet government there were Italian Fascists who worked with the Nazis. There were also Italians, unfortunately, who informed on Jews or Resistance members for that matter, or who took advantage of the anti-Semitic laws to make money. No country is completely populated with empathetic, compassionate, people. That's human nature. I'm talking about differences in degree.

    You either don't read very carefully or you just deliberately want to mislead by creating straw man arguments.

    As for how many Jews there were in Italy it's irrelevant. The issue is what percent were saved. The percent saved is huge: 80%.

    Next, it's indeed true that to Germans most Ashkenazim, not all, look closer to Italians, particularly Italians south of Rome, in phenotype than they do to Germans. So, what are you saying? People should only be expected to have fellow feeling for other human beings if they look a bit like them? Nominal Italian Fascists helped British and American POWs too, even though they looked rather different. All that this phenotype "closeness" meant was that in a cursory, visual check the Germans might not pick out the Jews. However, if you didn't have the correct papers you were done for as they were requested constantly. Even then, if there was the slightest suspicion of a man, all they had to do was make him drop his pants, which they did.

    Your longest paragraph is an apologia for mass murder and so is disgusting. Also, for your information, Italy was very hard hit by the Great Depression, and after Mussolini allied himself with that monster Hitler, Italy did adopt anti-Semitic Laws at Hitler's insistence. People were bombarded with anti-Semitic propaganda, the same propaganda you cite, at every turn: on the walls, in the newspapers, music etc. The difference is that when facing actual human beings being hunted and killed, the response was different, even though they knew there was terrible risk not only to themselves but to their families and communities.

    Please don't presume to argue Italian history when you know nothing about it.

    People differ in the amount of empathy they feel for other human beings, and in how much importance they place on obedience to the collective or group versus the needs of individuals. Why not nations? I hope I don't have to explain that when talking about nations one can only speak about averages.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As always you bring up irrelevancies or straw man arguments.
    so i guess discussing other reasons other than genetic differences is irrelevant for you. do you really want it to be solely because of genetic differences? you said its because of genetics and culture, culture is also determined by genetics. what else coud be different then? in that case i'll just look at modern societies and see which work best. maybe higher rates of corruption and clannish behaviour are also solely due to genetic differences.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As for how many Jews there were in Italy it's irrelevant. The issue is what percent were saved. The percent saved is huge: 80%.
    no it isn't irrelevant. at least it was already back then considered as a factor that might have played a role

    this was written in 1938 by Martin Agronsky
    "Italy is one of the last countries in Europe where anti-Semitism might normally be expected to gain much headway. Roughly estimated, one Italian out of a thousand is Jewish -- an exceedingly small proportion when compared for instance with the situation in Poland, where the ratio is one in ten, or in pre-Nazi Germany, where it was one in a hundred. Consequently, the relentless "race" campaign inaugurated by the Fascist Government early last summer surprised and puzzled Italians and non-Italians, Jews and non-Jews."


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Your longest paragraph is an apologia for mass murder and so is disgusting.
    i really want to know how this was an appology for mass murder if saying that throwing gas bombs is easier and needs less moral degeneracy than shooting people from close isn't apologia. or that italian war crimes in yugoslavia aren't that bad because they treated themselves a few decades later even more brutal anyway. that is disgusting apologia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Also, for your information, Italy was very hard hit by the Great Depression
    that is definitly not comparable to post war germany.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Next, it's indeed true that to Germans most Ashkenazim, not all, look closer to Italians, particularly Italians south of Rome, in phenotype than they do to Germans. So, what are you saying? People should only be expected to have fellow feeling for other human beings if they look a bit like them? Nominal Italian Fascists helped British and American POWs too, even though they looked rather different.
    why make it so absolute? i didn't say "People should only be expected to have fellow feeling for other human beings if they look a bit like them", i made the theory that it is harder to make people hate another group because of their ethnicity, when this group looks more similar. maybe you don't read carefully and deliberatly want to mislead?
    it is harder to convince an uneducated and ignorant person that another person is inferior when that other person looks identical than when that other person looks more different. the jews in italy were considered to be mediterraneans just like the italians. the antisemitic propaganda in italy tried to replace this mediterranean mindset with one that is more centered around an "aryan" race based around a blonde and blue eyed ubermensch, which was more like a uncivilized barbarian in the italian eyes. how successful could this propaganda be? we are deeply superficial creatures if you haven't realized yet. today phenotype and is extremely important in racism. i doubt it was that different 100 years ago. it's just human nature, which is, i guess, the topic of this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    All that this phenotype "closeness" meant was that in a cursory, visual check the Germans might not pick out the Jews.
    maybe that's because for racism or generally discriminating another group the individuals don't matter that much. what matters more is the size of the difference between the average picture of the own ethnic group/ culture shaped by own experiences, like own physical appearance or that of people around you, and propaganda, and the average picture of other people also shaped by own experiences and propaganda. maybe they also thought that if someone who looked german must have been mixed or that the behaviour, which was also considered to be inheritable, was still "jewish".

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I just don't share it. I still maintain that different countries react differently when leaders push for extermination of groups of people. That's why Italy was so different from Germany during World War II. I'm confident of that, and I don't think I'm unduly influenced by the fact that so many of the horrors inflicted on Italians by the Germans took place in my own area, and that one of my distant cousins was sent to a concentration camp.
    did you know, that the italian fascists were treating the people in occupied regions the same way?

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    Discussing things with you is just useless. You go on ignore.

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    ok since i'm on Angelas long ignore list, can someone else tell me what i said wrong or why it was irrelevance and "disgusting" apologia?

    or how this from another thread isn't apologia?
    "Mussolini fashioned fascism, a fact of which I'm not proud, but the Germans added the racism, anti-semitism, mass enslavement and killing. So, I suppose it's easier for his daughter to try to whitewash him."

    "I don't think anything that Italians might have done in the Balkans begins to compare with what they have done to each other, and that barely a generation ago, so I don't know where you're going with that, either."

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    just let it be

    we drifted a long way from the 7,3 ka massacres

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