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    massacre in 7,3 ka Els Trocs

    Violence seems deeply rooted in human nature and an endemic potential for such is today frequently associated with differing ethnic, religious or socio-economic backgrounds. Ethnic nepotism is believed to be one of the main causes of inter-group violence in multi-ethnic societies. At the site of Els Trocs in the Spanish Pyrenees, rivalling groups of either migrating early farmers or farmers and indigenous hunter-gatherers collided violently around 5300 BCE. This clash apparently resulted in a massacre of the Els Trocs farmers.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-58483-9

    https://www.realclearscience.com/qui...0LiPtuDbsilhhk

    it was when first farmers arrived at Els Trocs

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I've said it before and I'll say it again. If anyone wants to know what behaviors are baked into human dna, look at the apes. It's all there.

    All that Rousseau inspired belief in the pacific nature of hunter-gatherers was crap. There was no Eden where humans were pacific.

    I also doubt that evolution has changed us all that much in this regard. Imagine any doomsday apocalypse scenario you like, with a breakdown in law and order, and I would bet you it would all come out again.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I also doubt that evolution has changed us all that much in this regard. Imagine any doomsday apocalypse scenario you like, with a breakdown in law and order, and I would bet you it would all come out again.
    Indeed, one doesn't even have to imagine that much. The way colonists behaved in the remote lawless lands during the colonization of much of the Americas, away from any law, church and bureaucracy, was pretty much caotic and often even gratuitously violent like that. The chaos of post-Revolution Russia, until some sort of law and order was established (even if an evil one), was pretty much the same way. Ditto for the worst parts of the eastern front in the World War II.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Indeed, one doesn't even have to imagine that much. The way colonists behaved in the remote lawless lands during the colonization of much of the Americas, away from any law, church and bureaucracy, was pretty much caotic and often even gratuitously violent like that. The chaos of post-Revolution Russia, until some sort of law and order was established (even if an evil one), was pretty much the same way. Ditto for the worst parts of the eastern front in the World War II.
    Said more simply, if people are in a position of power, many of them will abuse it unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Indeed, one doesn't even have to imagine that much. The way colonists behaved in the remote lawless lands during the colonization of much of the Americas, away from any law, church and bureaucracy, was pretty much caotic and often even gratuitously violent like that. The chaos of post-Revolution Russia, until some sort of law and order was established (even if an evil one), was pretty much the same way. Ditto for the worst parts of the eastern front in the World War II.
    Indeed. Those German troops taxed with the massacres in the East like Babi Yar were brought to Italy after the landing of the Allies and unleashed on Northern Italy wherever partisans were helping the Allies. The situation was exactly the same as that described in the first post: old people, women and children massacred without mercy along with their priests, in this case with rifles and bombs and then fire, sometimes while trapped in their churches.



    Some of the children they machine gunned and then burned. What darkness lies in the heart of men.





    I'm not a great believer in how mankind has changed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Indeed. Those German troops taxed with the massacres in the East like Babi Yar were brought to Italy after the landing of the Allies and unleashed on Northern Italy wherever partisans were helping the Allies. The situation was exactly the same as that described in the first post: old people, women and children massacred without mercy along with their priests, in this case with rifles and bombs and then fire, sometimes while trapped in their churches.



    Some of the children they machine gunned and then burned. What darkness lies in the heart of men.





    I'm not a great believer in how mankind has changed.
    Oh, it was so distressing for me to contemplate these innocent faces and think of what happened to them and to millions of other similar people during WW2 and other wars... This world is indeed a "valley of tears" as the Catholic prayer goes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Oh, it was so distressing for me to contemplate these innocent faces and think of what happened to them and to millions of other similar people during WW2 and other wars... This world is indeed a "valley of tears" as the Catholic prayer goes.
    Back in the day, that was my favorite prayer. :)

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    In those times for God would be careful both the gatherer hunters and the farmers that I imagine they also hunted I do not think they were angels.


    Sometimes I am in a Supermarket and I see people shopping apparently calm and I think all these people how they would behave before a state of siege or an hecatomb would be able to kill for a carton of milk or any food. Then I feel fear and I wonder what I would do, and I don't get an answer.

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    The article has been very funky with xenophobia, ethnicities, racial issues. It is none of that.


    The massacre of the Trocs was a punishment and they ordered to kill them because they had other deities and different rites and for those lands there was an old shaman with a lot of power in the tribe and was suspicious of those neighbors who did not need him or his idols and discovered that They did different rituals and worshiped other deities and one of the women knew how to heal and had knowledge of herbs and people began to go to that woman to heal etc. then the old shaman made a plan and convinced the bosses that these people should receive a punishment and the chief or the most important saw him with good eyes because the fame of those others endangered his own hierarchy in the area since having magical powers Healing gave great power within the communities. It was an undercover punishment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    The article has been very funky with xenophobia, ethnicities, racial issues. It is none of that.


    The massacre of the Trocs was a punishment and they ordered to kill them because they had other deities and different rites and for those lands there was an old shaman with a lot of power in the tribe and was suspicious of those neighbors who did not need him or his idols and discovered that They did different rituals and worshiped other deities and one of the women knew how to heal and had knowledge of herbs and people began to go to that woman to heal etc. then the old shaman made a plan and convinced the bosses that these people should receive a punishment and the chief or the most important saw him with good eyes because the fame of those others endangered his own hierarchy in the area since having magical powers Healing gave great power within the communities. It was an undercover punishment.
    or maybe it was a carjacking gone wrong

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    or maybe it was a carjacking gone wrong
    It is what they have failed to say in the article.

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    So will we all, if we're honest . . .

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    We can find enough such examples even today. Some of us forum members lived for a while within a war zone in the heart of Europe, not that long ago. Such scenes were no rarity even less than 3 decades ago. But we can take contemporary Mexico as a example of brutality. Or how many members of the same family died today again due to a failed drone attack on terrorist cells in Middle East? 15 civilians dead in Yemen is small news in the West.

    There are 2 phenomena which are repeating and playing together throughout history. The first one is that in any society we have around 5% of people with personality disorder, e.g. psychopats (narcissistic, sociopats and other), they feel no empathy. A long story short, they find their way up the social ladder due to their unscrupulousness. The most obvious result is if you look at the management board in your company. The chance is high that you'll find the best examples exactly there. The psycho ratio rises to maybe 20%. From average of 5% to probably 20% with the leading positions, or from every 20th person to every 5th. With a bit of manipulation they get often to the very top. Just look at some country presidents today, formally not dictators.

    The other phenomenon is the "sheep syndrome" - follow the leader. A critical mind combined with courage is not a quality that many possess. It's more comfortable to go with the flow when things turn wrong and we can always find an excuse for it to justify our actions. It's much safer to obey, as long as we are not the direct victim.

    Exactly this combination of these two is what we witness so often in all areas of our life. Brutality is a result of lack of empathy of the initiator and executioner with the logic better your ass than mine. Capitalism, communism...they don't fail necessary always as an idea, it's only the fact that when only a small board of people decides for all the others, the time comes sooner or later when someone sees himself as the highest priority no matter how high the costs are.

    This slaughter from the OP might have been just an isolated incindent. We can't be certain and make a judgment based on 5 individuals. Same as today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_joe View Post
    We can find enough such examples even today. Some of us forum members lived for a while within a war zone in the heart of Europe, not that long ago. Such scenes were no rarity even less than 3 decades ago. But we can take contemporary Mexico as a example of brutality. Or how many members of the same family died today again due to a failed drone attack on terrorist cells in Middle East? 15 civilians dead in Yemen is small news in the West.

    There are 2 phenomena which are repeating and playing together throughout history. The first one is that in any society we have around 5% of people with personality disorder, e.g. psychopats (narcissistic, sociopats and other), they feel no empathy. A long story short, they find their way up the social ladder due to their unscrupulousness. The most obvious result is if you look at the management board in your company. The chance is high that you'll find the best examples exactly there. The psycho ratio rises to maybe 20%. From average of 5% to probably 20% with the leading positions, or from every 20th person to every 5th. With a bit of manipulation they get often to the very top. Just look at some country presidents today, formally not dictators.

    The other phenomenon is the "sheep syndrome" - follow the leader. A critical mind combined with courage is not a quality that many possess. It's more comfortable to go with the flow when things turn wrong and we can always find an excuse for it to justify our actions. It's much safer to obey, as long as we are not the direct victim.

    Exactly this combination of these two is what we witness so often in all areas of our life. Brutality is a result of lack of empathy of the initiator and executioner with the logic better your ass than mine. Capitalism, communism...they don't fail necessary always as an idea, it's only the fact that when only a small board of people decides for all the others, the time comes sooner or later when someone sees himself as the highest priority no matter how high the costs are.

    This slaughter from the OP might have been just an isolated incindent. We can't be certain and make a judgment based on 5 individuals. Same as today.
    I agree with a lot of what you said, don joe, but I don't believe the number is that small. What the Nazis did during World War II required not only the complicity but the active participation of a lot more than 5% of the population. There were whole regiments of these men, not only manning the concentration camps, but slaughtering civilians all over Europe.

    Ed. To return to the topic of the paper. It seems that the majority of the Red Army soldiers participated in this horror. As I said, I think your 4% figure is much too low. You don't have to be an outright psychopath to commit horrors on other people.
    Last edited by Angela; 16-02-20 at 16:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree with a lot of what you said, don joe, but I don't believe the number is that small. What the Nazis did during World War II required not only the complicity but the active participation of a lot more than 5% of the population. There were whole regiments of these men, not only manning the concentration camps, but slaughtering civilians all over Europe.
    You're absolutely right. Like my theory that I've explained, psychos are manipulators and initiators. The "sheep" carry it out, for many reasons. It can be a sense of belonging and protection within a group, our old need we inherit as animals. It can be just fear for own life or whatever. We are not talking only about Nazis or Germans in general. A few other European countries have organized killing of indigineous people in millions around the globe in the name of god, crown or whatever. The regiments were made mostly of peasants living a hard pious life, careing about their families with the last thought about murdering some natives many thousand miles away. But they did. Manipulators said natives are half humans like Jewish were for some others. That's an excuse when you're to afraid to swim against the flow to deal with your own conscience. Milgram experiment on a larger scale. No nation is special, it can happen and it happened everywhere.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    even empathic people can become monsters towards others with the right propaganda and brain washing. our tribal nature enables us to feel empathy for those who we think are part of our group but feel almost nothing towards others. my theory is this trait is more developed in men. maybe this evolved because individuals who showed no mercy towards outsiders deleted a possible genetic contribution from outside so that their own has less competition and they also made sure that there is no danger in the future. it is also beneficial in the moment of fighting to be cold blooded and thus be less hesitant to stab an opponent or to smash someones skull.
    today most xenophobes are male so that might not be comming from nowhere.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I agree for the most with don joe.
    Your "psychos" don't need to be so numerous (I am not one of them), but they can account upon cowards (I'm maybe among these last ones, not tested yet and feel no need). And Germans of the ""last" world war were ordinary people, as a whole. But perhaps too much used to order and discipline?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I agree for the most with don joe.
    Your "psychos" don't need to be so numerous (I am not one of them), but they can account upon cowards (I'm maybe among these last ones, not tested yet and feel no need). And Germans of the ""last" world war were ordinary people, as a whole. But perhaps too much used to order and discipline?
    You're right that they are used to order. But every colonization and genocide happened in the same manner. The Nazis weren't inventors and don't own the exlusive rights. Hereby I would only concentrate on the Europian countries and their imperialistic history, even before the WWII.

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    No imperialist European country ever had as its stated goal the extermination of whole groups of people, i.e. the Jews and Gypsies first, along with anyone whom they considered to have physical or mental defects, to be followed by the Slavs, although the German colonies in Africa were the most brutally run.

    There is absolutely no comparison.

    Nor do all European countries have as hallmarks of their culture slavish obedience to civic authority figures. The concentration and extermination camps were built in, and manned from, only certain areas.

    Despite having a Fascist leader and government, not a single person from Italy was sent to an extermination camp until after Mussolini had been deposed and placed under arrest, and the Germans raced in to release him and set up a puppet government. One of the nicest things ever said about Italians was the comment made by a German general who advised the other generals and the Nazi officials not to inform the Italians about what was going on because "They'd never stomach it." He may not have meant it as a compliment, but a compliment it was.

    Not, of course, that there weren't Italians who were complicit with the Nazis in implementing "racial" policy. However, the vast majority of the Italian Jews were saved precisely because humanity, human relationships, trumped obedience to rules, even the rules of their own party. A lot of nominal fascists were involved in saving Jews, at risk of their own lives. As for the Italian army, they placed the Jews in the corner of France they controlled under their protection. Only when they were gone did the transports begin.

    How much of that took place in Germany? The answer is: none of it.

    Let's try not to rewrite history, ok?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No imperialist European country ever had as its stated goal the extermination of whole groups of people, i.e. the Jews and Gypsies first, along with anyone whom they considered to have physical or mental defects, to be followed by the Slavs, although the German colonies in Africa were the most brutally run.

    There is absolutely no comparison.

    Nor do all European countries have as hallmarks of their culture slavish obedience to civic authority figures. The concentration and extermination camps were built in, and manned from, only certain areas.

    Despite having a Fascist leader and government, not a single person from Italy was sent to an extermination camp until after Mussolini had been deposed and placed under arrest, and the Germans raced in to release him and set up a puppet government. One of the nicest things ever said about Italians was the comment made by a German general who advised the other generals and the Nazi officials not to inform the Italians about what was going on because "They'd never stomach it." He may not have meant it as a compliment, but a compliment it was.

    Not, of course, that there weren't Italians who were complicit with the Nazis in implementing "racial" policy. However, the vast majority of the Italian Jews were saved precisely because humanity, human relationships, trumped obedience to rules, even the rules of their own party. A lot of nominal fascists were involved in saving Jews, at risk of their own lives. As for the Italian army, they placed the Jews in the corner of France they controlled under their protection. Only when they were gone did the transports begin.

    How much of that took place in Germany? The answer is: none of it.

    Let's try not to rewrite history, ok?
    You're talking about the impact, I'm talking about mobilizing ordinary people for murder. I'm not an advocate of any evil. I'm not discussing who is worse than who, I just say that there were fine other examples of brutality even before. It wasn't invented with the WWII.

    Apropos rewriting history, Italian troops didn't bring flowers to the Ethiopians, did they?

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_joe View Post
    You're talking about the impact, I'm talking about mobilizing ordinary people for murder. I'm not an advocate of any evil. I'm not discussing who is worse than who, I just say that there were fine other examples of brutality even before. It wasn't invented with the WWII.

    Apropos rewriting history, Italian troops didn't bring flowers to the Ethiopians, did they?
    You clearly haven't been reading my posts. The slaughter of other men for resources and "ancestral" lands and the rape of women as an act of war are horrors as old as man and as recent as the war in the Balkans a few decades ago.

    Nor are my comments about differing impact because of the use of modern technology and transport.

    My point is that Nazism was an ideology which had as one of its central tenets that there are superior peoples and people who are not quite human, and that the wealth, territory etc. that these untermenschen or "not quite human" people possess are therefore ripe for the taking. Indeed, the very existence of this different "breed" of human is an affront and a danger if they are allowed to mix with the ubermenschen and so it is a goal, an ultimate good and moral imperative to exterminate them.

    Please tell me of another country, especially another European country, where such beliefs were adopted so readily and by such huge proportions, or where such a huge proportion of the population was so craven that there was virtually NO resistance to it.

    So, no, it's absolutely not just about "impact".

    It's about whether there was a clear, deliberate, intention, an ideological imperative to exterminate whole groups of people which was methodically planned and carried out. The only close parallel which occurs to me at the moment is the Armenian genocide and even that is not really analogous.

    I'm also talking about mobilizing large segments of ordinary people for murder. There will always be psychopaths and sociopaths in any country. If you're going to be able to succeed in putting into practice a mass extermination of millions of people, you're going to need to mobilize a large percentage of your country for murder, and the rest of the populace is going to have to just stand by.

    The question is whether there are differences between groups of people or cultures. I believe people, their genetic predispositions, are partly responsible for culture. Historical experiences are definitely another factor. Whichever is at play and in what percentages varies.There was NO resistance whatsoever in Germany. In eastern Europe most of the camps were partly staffed by locals. Sale of Jews for a loaf of bread was commonplace. Priests preached the Jew were Christ killers and brought this on themselves. That's why extermination camps were built in Germany and countries in the east. The German planners talked about it openly. It's all there in the records.

    What's at play here? Is it more territorialism, more hatred of the other? Is it a character trait where people are more often blindly obedient to any authority figures? Is it the presence of more people who lack empathy? Is it a question of group loyalty versus individual connections, i.e. the Jewish grocer down the street who has always been kind to you?

    All I know is that there are definite differences.

    Is Italy's misguided attempt to colonize Ethiopia supposed to be a gotcha moment? That's not logical. I've already stated in this very thread that of course there were some Italian fascists who went along with the Germans once they came in and set up the puppet government in Northern Italy. Each and every one of them should have been hung, along with any partisans who might have committed atrocities. You really think I'm the kind of person who would excuse such activities because it was a countryman who committed them?

    I've also often stated that the Ethiopian campaign is a blot on Italian history. No country is free of them. It's much easier, however, as anyone should understand, to drop a bomb from a plane than to stand in front of women and children and old people and set fire to them as you look them in the face and hear their screams and pleas for mercy.

    Plus, that's a tangent. The question is whether it is easier in some countries and cultures to mobilize the entire population into either active participation in a killing frenzy or slavish adherence to the "group" imperative, or both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You clearly haven't been reading my posts. The slaughter of other men for resources and "ancestral" lands and the rape of women as an act of war are horrors as old as man and as recent as the war in the Balkans a few decades ago.

    Nor are my comments about differing impact because of the use of modern technology and transport.

    My point is that Nazism was an ideology which had as one of its central tenets that there are superior peoples and people who are not quite human, and that the wealth, territory etc. that these untermenschen or "not quite human" people possess are therefore ripe for the taking. Indeed, the very existence of this different "breed" of human is an affront and a danger if they are allowed to mix with the ubermenschen and so it is a goal, an ultimate good and moral imperative to exterminate them.

    Please tell me of another country, especially another European country, where such beliefs were adopted so readily and by such huge proportions, or where such a huge proportion of the population was so craven that there was virtually NO resistance to it.

    So, no, it's absolutely not just about "impact".

    It's about whether there was a clear, deliberate, intention, an ideological imperative to exterminate whole groups of people which was methodically planned and carried out. The only close parallel which occurs to me at the moment is the Armenian genocide and even that is not really analogous.

    I'm also talking about mobilizing large segments of ordinary people for murder. There will always be psychopaths and sociopaths in any country. If you're going to be able to succeed in putting into practice a mass extermination of millions of people, you're going to need to mobilize a large percentage of your country for murder, and the rest of the populace is going to have to just stand by.

    The question is whether there are differences between groups of people or cultures. I believe people, their genetic predispositions, are partly responsible for culture. Historical experiences are definitely another factor. Whichever is at play and in what percentages varies.There was NO resistance whatsoever in Germany. In eastern Europe most of the camps were partly staffed by locals. Sale of Jews for a loaf of bread was commonplace. Priests preached the Jew were Christ killers and brought this on themselves. That's why extermination camps were built in Germany and countries in the east. The German planners talked about it openly. It's all there in the records.

    What's at play here? Is it more territorialism, more hatred of the other? Is it a character trait where people are more often blindly obedient to any authority figures? Is it the presence of more people who lack empathy? Is it a question of group loyalty versus individual connections, i.e. the Jewish grocer down the street who has always been kind to you?

    All I know is that there are definite differences.

    Is Italy's misguided attempt to colonize Ethiopia supposed to be a gotcha moment? That's not logical. I've already stated in this very thread that of course there were some Italian fascists who went along with the Germans once they came in and set up the puppet government in Northern Italy. Each and every one of them should have been hung, along with any partisans who might have committed atrocities. You really think I'm the kind of person who would excuse such activities because it was a countryman who committed them?

    I've also often stated that the Ethiopian campaign is a blot on Italian history. No country is free of them. It's much easier, however, as anyone should understand, to drop a bomb from a plane than to stand in front of women and children and old people and set fire to them as you look them in the face and hear their screams and pleas for mercy.

    Plus, that's a tangent. The question is whether it is easier in some countries and cultures to mobilize the entire population into either active participation in a killing frenzy or slavish adherence to the "group" imperative, or both.
    There was indeed resistance in Germany, the 20 July plot. And I'll name you just one country: Belgian occupation of Congo. Atrocities and slavery, milions of dead people. They only didn't call themselves Übermenschen.

    Don't get upset. I'm seeking no conflict, you accused me for rewriting history and then for not reading your posts. Your posts are getting longer and longer to try to prove your point, especially about things that I didn't even say.

    All the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_joe View Post
    There was indeed resistance in Germany, the 20 July plot. And I'll name you just one country: Belgian occupation of Congo. Atrocities and slavery, milions of dead people. They only didn't call themselves Übermenschen.

    Don't get upset. I'm seeking no conflict, you accused me for rewriting history and then for not reading your posts. Your posts are getting longer and longer to try to prove your point, especially about things that I didn't even say.

    All the best.
    I don't want any conflict either, Joe.

    I'm just trying to set the historical record straight.

    Yes, the Belgian occupation of the Congo was a horror, and the German colonies were terrible, as indeed I mentioned, but it wasn't, imo, the same.

    The July 20 plot was an attempt by a few German generals to take back control of their country from a madman leading their army to destruction. It failed dismally because it didn't have broad support, not just because the bomb didn't work as planned. It had nothing to do with the extermination camps per se, and there were almost no German civilians who seem to have objected to them. I've read dozens and dozens of books on the subject and the evidence is clear.

    My point is that there seems to me, from the historical record, to be a difference between countries in terms of the incidence of these kinds of things.

    My posts are long because I'm trying to cover all the issues raised. Blame it on a career writing briefs and then contracts that cover every area of possibility. :) It's also that I find that younger people in particular are lacking in historical context. Apologies if that doesn't apply to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    What's at play here? Is it more territorialism, more hatred of the other? Is it a character trait where people are more often blindly obedient to any authority figures? Is it the presence of more people who lack empathy? Is it a question of group loyalty versus individual connections, i.e. the Jewish grocer down the street who has always been kind to you?

    All I know is that there are definite differences.
    so your theory is that germans are genetically or culturally more prone to killing innocents? since culture is tied to genetics for you i assume you place emphasis on genetics. maybe that is the case maybe not. i'll try to give some more possible explanations for those differences between the treatments of jewish people in germany, or to some extent eastern europe, and italy.

    first the numbers. there were living around 500'000 jewish people in germany in 1930 mostly concentrated in the big cities. there were around 50'000 jewish people living in italy. maybe the jewish community was more visible in germany than in italy due to this.

    then there was germany's defeat in WW1 and all the repressions that came with it. the jews were one of the groups, another one were the socialists, which were held responsible for the defeat. already during the war one accusation was that the jewish men were physically inferior and unfit for beeing soldiers. many believed the jewish men were shirkers who used excuses money and connections to get away from the war. a census of the army was made and the results were not made public because it would be dangerous for the jewish community. nowadays we know that many jewish german people fought at the front and died for germany like all the others but back then this propaganda was increasing antisemitism in germany more and more. italy was neutral during WW1 so there was no need for a black sheep.

    and another explanation, could be that the jewish people who lived in italy were phenotypically not as different from the non-jewish italians around them as german jews were from the other germans. so maybe it was way harder to create an antisemitic sentiment among the italians and make them cold or racist against jewish people because ethnically the overlap between the two groups was bigger than it was the case in germany.

    now when it comes to punitive actions against civilians, including women and children, on occupied territory italy was far away from beeing innocent. someone like Graziani would have at least deserved a death sentence instead he was sitting in a prison for 4 months. Roatta too, he was responsible for the death of thousands of civilians. he was sentenced to life imprisonment and fled to spain. in 1948 his sentence was revoked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    so your theory is that germans are genetically or culturally more prone to killing innocents? since culture is tied to genetics for you i assume you place emphasis on genetics. maybe that is the case maybe not. i'll try to give some more possible explanations for those differences between the treatments of jewish people in germany, or to some extent eastern europe, and italy.

    first the numbers. there were living around 500'000 jewish people in germany in 1930 mostly concentrated in the big cities. there were around 50'000 jewish people living in italy. maybe the jewish community was more visible in germany than in italy due to this.

    then there was germany's defeat in WW1 and all the repressions that came with it. the jews were one of the groups, another one were the socialists, which were held responsible for the defeat. already during the war one accusation was that the jewish men were physically inferior and unfit for beeing soldiers. many believed the jewish men were shirkers who used excuses money and connections to get away from the war. a census of the army was made and the results were not made public because it would be dangerous for the jewish community. nowadays we know that many jewish german people fought at the front and died for germany like all the others but back then this propaganda was increasing antisemitism in germany more and more. italy was neutral during WW1 so there was no need for a black sheep.

    and another explanation, could be that the jewish people who lived in italy were phenotypically not as different from the non-jewish italians around them as german jews were from the other germans. so maybe it was way harder to create an antisemitic sentiment among the italians and make them cold or racist against jewish people because ethnically the overlap between the two groups was bigger than it was the case in germany.

    now when it comes to punitive actions against civilians, including women and children, on occupied territory italy was far away from beeing innocent. someone like Graziani would have at least deserved a death sentence instead he was sitting in a prison for 4 months. Roatta too, he was responsible for the death of thousands of civilians. he was sentenced to life imprisonment and fled to spain. in 1948 his sentence was revoked.
    As always you bring up irrelevancies or straw man arguments.

    Who the hell says Italy was totally innocent of any wrongdoing during the war? I already pointed that out when talking about the bombing of Ethiopia, and also when I pointed out that after the establishment of the Salo' puppet government there were Italian Fascists who worked with the Nazis. There were also Italians, unfortunately, who informed on Jews or Resistance members for that matter, or who took advantage of the anti-Semitic laws to make money. No country is completely populated with empathetic, compassionate, people. That's human nature. I'm talking about differences in degree.

    You either don't read very carefully or you just deliberately want to mislead by creating straw man arguments.

    As for how many Jews there were in Italy it's irrelevant. The issue is what percent were saved. The percent saved is huge: 80%.

    Next, it's indeed true that to Germans most Ashkenazim, not all, look closer to Italians, particularly Italians south of Rome, in phenotype than they do to Germans. So, what are you saying? People should only be expected to have fellow feeling for other human beings if they look a bit like them? Nominal Italian Fascists helped British and American POWs too, even though they looked rather different. All that this phenotype "closeness" meant was that in a cursory, visual check the Germans might not pick out the Jews. However, if you didn't have the correct papers you were done for as they were requested constantly. Even then, if there was the slightest suspicion of a man, all they had to do was make him drop his pants, which they did.

    Your longest paragraph is an apologia for mass murder and so is disgusting. Also, for your information, Italy was very hard hit by the Great Depression, and after Mussolini allied himself with that monster Hitler, Italy did adopt anti-Semitic Laws at Hitler's insistence. People were bombarded with anti-Semitic propaganda, the same propaganda you cite, at every turn: on the walls, in the newspapers, music etc. The difference is that when facing actual human beings being hunted and killed, the response was different, even though they knew there was terrible risk not only to themselves but to their families and communities.

    Please don't presume to argue Italian history when you know nothing about it.

    People differ in the amount of empathy they feel for other human beings, and in how much importance they place on obedience to the collective or group versus the needs of individuals. Why not nations? I hope I don't have to explain that when talking about nations one can only speak about averages.

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