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Thread: Alternation of words wth L or R in IEan languages

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    Alternation of words wth L or R in IEan languages



    I have remarked that IE roots attached to close enough meanings differed between them only by the alternation of R/L or the reverse.
    According to M. POKORNIK (old reconstructions, but sensible):


    *bal-bal- babbling, unclear speech

    *bar-bar- babbling, unclear speech

    *bhel- glittering white > bheleg to shine
    *bher- shining, bright brown > bherəg, bhrēg to shine, bright, white
    *bhlēu- < bhel- to bloat, to swell, to blow up, to flow
    *bhrēu- > bhreu-d to swell, to sprout
    *gel- to curl, to form into ball, round
    *ger- to curl to wind, to turn
    hel- (*ghel-?) >ğhle- to shine, to glare, to glow, gold, yellow, bright colour
    *ğher- (-g-), *ğhre- to shine, to beam, to shimmer
    *kal- hard, callous, blister
    *kar- hard
    *kel- to cut
    *ker- to cut
    ? *kwel- to turn, wheel + ? neck
    ? *kwer- dish, pot (? meaning of roundness, or turned pots?)
    *krā-(-u), *krə-, *krŭ- to heap up, to pile together, heap, roof
    *klā- to lade, to place, to heap up, to lay down
    *mel-, *melə- dark colour, dirty
    *mer-, *mor- > *moru-, *moro- to blacken, dark colour, dirt spot
    ? *pel- to fold > pleǩ- to plait, to ply, to weave
    ? *prā- to bend
    *wel-, *wlē- to turn, to wind, round, voluble
    *wer- to turn, to bend, to wrap


    So a repetition of the same phenomenon cannot be due to pure hazard. We could think that this alternation is old among IE languages ; in today dialects, it’s true, it ‘s a constant and so is not so surprising; it doesn’t need exchanges between remote IE dialects because it occurs on little scale too. I suppose it occurs also among other groups of languages.
    What is your opinion? Could you post some similar examples in diverse languages?

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    - breton
    karreg reef
    krag sandstone > kragell -
    kloc’h bell (resounding stone at first) - klopenn < klog-penn skull, crania – kleger rocks pile or rocks mass - ? krug, krugell stone tumulus (meaning of stone pile or meaning of circle?)
    - welsh
    carreg stone, rock - craig rock, crag -
    cloch bell – penglog skullclogfaen boulder - clegyr rock, cliff, crag -
    ? crug hillock, heap, cairn -
    - irish
    carraig rock - carn cairn, stones heap - creag/creig crag, rocky eminence, rock -
    clog bell - cloch stone – cladrach stony place -
    - scot gaelic
    carn heap of stone – carragh erect stone –carraig rock jutting into the sea, cliff, headland -
    creagach rocky, craggy, cliffy, roughcreig rock -
    clag bell - clach stone – cladach shore (stony or sandy) -
    -
    serbo-croatian

    kršrock
    + maybe, from ? *s-k°l-
    -tchèque

    skàla rock -
    -russe skala rock -
    -bulgarian
    skala rock
    -polish
    skała rock




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    Serbo-Croatian: krš [kïrsh] : rock - sorry

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    Meanings of curve, round, circle
    greek- kurtos curved, bent - korônos curved, bent, hooked - lat- + corona crown – corolla corolla >> anc-fre- corb- >> courbe – incurver – couronne – couronner – corolle – corollaire - Esp- corvo – encorvar – corona – coronar - It- curvo – incurvare – coronare - >> Slav- Srb-Cro kruna crown -
    enlarged form (sic!) *kerk- same basic meaning
    - greek- kirkos / krikos = ring - kerkos = animals tail
    - lat- circus = circle, creek, inlet - circa = around (close) (loaned by other groups of languages) – circuire – circulus - circellus – circare – circulare – circinus compass
    - anc-fre cerche round, tour - cerchier to go circularly > to search - cernel small hole/opening -
    - fre- cirque – cercle – circonférence – circuit – circuler – circonspect – cerceau – chercher (sercher) – recherche – cerne – cerner - >> eng- search – germ- zirkel – bezirk district
    - span- circo – cerco – cerca – circuir – circulo – cercillo, zarcillo earing- cercar to gird on, to put on, to surround - cercenar to trim, to cut down
    - it- circa – cerchia surrounding wall, enclosure – cerchio – circuire - circolo – cerchiello – cercare – cercine roll/fold of flesh -
    let’s note cercle, circle, circuler < ? *k°r-k°l ?!? or *k°r-kw°l ???
    greek cyclos (kuklos) < *kwekwl-

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    -russian
    krug round, circle – krugljij curved - krutitj to spin, to drill – krutic(j)a to turn around – kružitjto revolve, to wring – krivój curved, bent - -
    korónka crown (loan, not cognate?)
    klanjats(j)a to slope oneself -
    kalítka small door, gate, wicket – koleno knee – koljcevóljcircular – kolj ring – koleso wheel -
    - bulgarian
    krivbent, twisted, + hunchback ? - krivina curve – krʌgcircle, round - krʌgal circular, rounded -
    + ? krjučok hook, staple
    korona crown (loan, not cognate?)
    koljanoknee – kolelo wheel -
    - serbo-croatian
    kriv = bent, curved >> to dip, to take a downturn, guilty, culprit - krivina bend, curve-
    krug circle, round - kružiti to circulate -
    - czech
    kruh / kružnice circle - kružitko compass
    kolo wheel
    - pol
    krąg round (let’s remark the mark on the 'a' of the infix 'n', see english hring, french rang !) - okrągły = round, curved
    koło wheel

    the proximity of the roots of some of these words doesn't prove that they are immediate cognates (ATW PIE it's reconstruction), but it seems they have a remote common origin, IMO. But sometimes I could be abused by the hazard of semantic proximities, vagueness and drifts.

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    -breton
    kromm curved, bendkronn > krenn 1 round, circular - kerc’hlenn circle -
    krec’h fuzzy, frizzy – kris creased, wrinkled - gronnañ << °kronnañ =to surround
    ? krenn 2 mean, small, iminished by round about cutting < > krennañ > kriniañ to gnaw, to eat away ? - krek core, stalk -
    kelc’h circle –
    ? kleis (< kleiz) left (side) ?
    -welsh

    crwm/crom curved, bendcrwn/cron round, circular – cronhoi to surround -
    cylch circle - ?cledd left (side) ? -
    -scot gaelic
    cruim curved, bend – croch to hang, to suspend > croich gibbet – crom to bend, to stoop, to decline - cruinn circle + round, circular, rotund - cruinnim/cruinnich = to aggregate, to gather < to surround -
    claon to incline, to rebel > claonadh slanting, inclining, squinting -
    clearc ringlet, curl, lock of hair – clichd hook, crook – clip hand hook, large hook -

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    My first hypothesis would be: remnants of a former dialectal variation that was mostly overrun by a homogeneization caused by the dominance of one particular dialect over the others, with only remnants of phonetic differences between distinct dialects, such as these you found, surviving that linguistic convergence, sometimes with slightly different meanings, as it often happens in the case of regional slangs and dialectal forms of words that are kept in use even after the people shift to another more prestigious dialect or related language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    My first hypothesis would be: remnants of a former dialectal variation that was mostly overrun by a homogeneization caused by the dominance of one particular dialect over the others, with only remnants of phonetic differences between distinct dialects, such as these you found, surviving that linguistic convergence, sometimes with slightly different meanings, as it often happens in the case of regional slangs and dialectal forms of words that are kept in use even after the people shift to another more prestigious dialect or related language.
    Even if some hazardous coincidences could have occurred, it seems that the most of these roots groups are linked in a more or less far past, some with R some with L.
    So, if true, I agree 100% with you. In times when writings were absent or almost, in a rather uncentralized but satellized group of tribes, variants were born and after that absorbed here and there by dominant groups, in the kind of process you explain well, I think. It's probable that a lot of ancient dialects, in between at he margins of the today "winners", have been swallowed by history.

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    - russian
    vraščatj to do turn (turbine) – vraščatjsjato turn (satellite) – vertetjto roll (to wheel) – vertetjsja to swirn, to whirl, to spin – virtjsja to twist, to buckle, to wringvoróčatjsja to turn round (oneself) -

    val cylinder – vàlik bolster – valjatjsja to wallow, to roll oneself on in –
    ? volnà wave – volvénie trouble, excitement, bustle -
    ? vlévoleft -


    -bulgarian
    vʌrtja to turn – vʌrtjašta turnstile – vratadoorvrʌštam to give back -vrʌštam se to return -
    valcuvam to roll -


    -czech
    vrata door – vrt boring, drilling – vrtàk gimlet + spin ? - vrtkavost fickleness, inconstancy – vrtohlavost turnsick, sturdy – vrtoch whim, caprice – vrtule helix, propeller -
    + verze version (latin loan?)
    valcovàni cylindring – vàlec rolling – valitito wheel, to roll -
    ? vlevo left -

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    some Slavic words in VR- exist with meanings like damage or enemy (enemy: opposite, reverse, contrary...) ???

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    - russian
    vlitj, vlivatj to pour -
    - polish
    wracać to go back, to turn – warkocz braid, plait – wir whirl(wind) -
    + ? wrog enemy ? -
    - serbo-croatian
    vir whirl(wind)vrata (door) – vrat (neck > throat) – vratiti to give back, to pay backvrtlog whirl(wind), swirl + vrdatito warp, to distort
    + ? varanje deception, trickery – varati to deceive -
    valjak cylinder, roll, roller – valjati to laminate > to wallow, to flatten – val wave -

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    english
    to wring wrong to wrap wrinkle wrist + ? root < *wrot/*wort ?
    wry neck 'torticolis' – wreath : crown

    ? wrestle
    - german

    wirbel whirl -
    walze roll, cylinderwalzen to roll - welle wave – wellen to undulate, to curl –
    - dutch
    wervel turnstile, spinner + vertebra -
    wals roll, cylinder – walsen to laminate -
    ?wars opponent, adversary – walving bend, curvature -
    ?wortel(s) root > (carots)wringen to wring -
    - swedish
    vrida to twist, to wring, to bend
    välvd arched, bow, hooked -

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    - french
    vrille spin, gimlet > vriller to drill, to spin > to bore into -
    verser to pour - + renverser to overturn, to upset – inverser to reverse – envers 2 other side, wrong side – versatile fickle, changeable – versant slope, hillside – intervertir to invert, to reverse
    volute curl of smoke – voûte > voûté bent, stooped, arched, vaulted – volte volte > révolte rebellion, revolt -
    see italian voltare, spanish voltar to turn -

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    the roots in cause would be
    *wel IV- to wheel, to roll

    greek elub < *welub > eilô, êllo to wheel? + helix, helikos spiral - french hélice
    latin volvere (volutum) to wheel, to roll - volumen roll, roller - > volubilis, evolutio, evolvere...

    see spanish volver, voluta, vuelta, voltear, volumen... + desenvuelto, revuelta, vale
    italian volgere, volta < volvita, voltolare + valle, vallone, rivolta
    lat > english voluble, devolve, involve, revolve, revolution > "franglais" revolver

    *wer- IVto turn, to twist
    sanskrit vàrtate "he turns" -
    latin vortere/vertere > versum to turn - versare to turn often - vortex whirl - verticalis vertical -
    vertigo whirl -
    dorsum? <*devorsum back of body - universus wholy turned towards - adversitas opposition convertere to turn -
    I don't put here all the derived words from latin in romances languages; here under their "brothers" loaned by english language
    versed, verse, vertical, universe, adversary, aversion, versus...
    + *wer-g-
    verge, to converge, to divergeassumed by more than one:
    english worth :german wert = dutch waarde, swedish värda, concept of revolving < > to exchange < > to sell = welsh gwerthu, breton gwerthañ


    not finished: it stays *wer-b- and *wer-m-

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    A rolled "r" would be very close phonetically (and "anatomically") to an "l". To such a point that the very nature of the consonant may have been ambiguous in some dialects, and the shift from one to the other almost "natural".

    Compare Spanish "blanco" and Portuguese "branco".

    Same thing, only older : Latin "Flamen", Ancient Geek "Βραχμᾶνες, Brakhmanes", Sanskrit "Brahmana". (Allegedly from PIE *bhlagh-men, priest)
    Last edited by hrvclv; 11-03-20 at 12:07.
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Agree totally.
    and portuguese praya compared to spanish playa and surely a lot of examples...
    I occurs frequently nowadays, why not before.
    dial.breton braouac'h/blaouac'h terror - dial. luskellad/ruskellad to rock
    breton treud thin, "skinny", meager - welsh tlawd poor -
    &: one hypothesis is that the etnic name Alan would come from Aryan

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    *wer-/*wel- meaning of twist, curve, ring, turn, reverse


    - irish
    féire/ crookedness, obliqueness – fiar(adh) slant, tilt, bias, obliquity + to veer, to turn, to bend, to twist, to distort – fiaras crookedness, perversion – fiarlàn zigzag – forneàil act of rolling - freang to twist, to contort, to wrench – freangach contorted, twisted – freas- prefix marking meanings as reverse, … back, reaction, opposition … > freaschuir to reverse (juridic) -
    ? fréamh root ? - ? fris- > frisnéis refuse, rebut ? … frith- > anti-, conter- ...
    fail 1 ring, bracelet – faoileàil to wheel, to spin, to revolve – fill to bend, to turn back, to fold -filleasc fold – filleadh fold, ply -
    ? feall trichery, deceit, failure ? -
    - gaelic
    fiar crooked, aslant, inclining, oblique – frideag ring-worm -
    ? freagairt reply, answer ? (same in irish, I suppose) -
    ? feall deceit + false words
    - breton
    gwar twisted > gwareg bow, arch > gwareger archer -
    gwrac’higenniñ to wrinkle ?gwrac’hell rounded haystack ? + derived words –
    ? gwrizienn root ? - ? gouris < *gwregis belt ? -
    gwalenn ring, finger ring + rod - gwelch bias, partisanship (from french gauche) -
    ? gwall bad + evil ? -
    - welsh
    gwargam stooping - gwargrymu to stoop – gwarrog yoke – gwragen > gwragennus curved, bent, hump-backed – gwrth- suffix meaning : counter-, opposition, return - gwrym seam, band -
    ? gwreiddyn root ? - ? gwregys belt, girdle, truss ? -
    ? gwall defect, mistake + want – ? gwallogfaulty, fallacious ? -

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    As everybody can see, the meaning of a word and even more of a "root" (radical) can evolve very far. we could tempted to think that the semantic evolves from concrete/palpable to abstract(ive), but it's not so sure.
    some changes: bend > fold > 1 wrapping > hiding 2 > wheel, roll> pivot > to rotate > rotating door > to reverse, ASO...
    bend > twist > wrong (abstr-) > false > evil (# right > direct + > correct > good > ...)
    the question is that at a certain point, the semantic evolution can put to converge words having roots which had different meanings at first; the game is exciting but unsure.
    Is the meaning of value/worth derived from a sale/exchange/reverse/rotating one? Not sure.
    So after the game for the fun it's wiser to read the specialists works based upon a long collective work implying also ancient forms.
    Just a ( )!

  19. #19
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    *wer- IV
    *wer-b-
    greek rhabdos < *wrabdos stick, rhapizô to whip -
    lat- reverbere to reject, to throw back/off > fr- réverbérer to reflect -
    germ- werfen to throw, Wurf throwing, Würfel dice – engl- to warp to distort -


    *wer-m-
    lat- vermis worm > fr- ver, vermisseau worm, little worm, vermoulu worm-eaten -
    goth- waurms, germ- Wurm, engl- worm, dutch worm -




    Here under I ‘ii use C for any kind of consonnant and ° for any kind of vowel
    It seems to me that in the groups where we find the association *C- with R or L, it’s often possible to find derived words in *C°l-, *C°r- or *Cl°-, *Cr°-
    specialists of IE have determined precise vowels sounds according to dialect and period. It’s surely valuable for accentuated roots syllabes to have the *C°l- / *C°r- with determined value for ‘°’ ; but with long derived plurisyllabic words, the stress change place one time or another. It is known in a lot of languages and dialects ; it’s even the rule, for the most of the cases. And then, according to the strength place in the word, some inaccentued vowels are dropped, more often in some families of languages than in other ones, it’s true.
    In written standard French we have vrai : true , from provençal verai < veragus < Lat- verus ths last word gave also ver > *veir > *vair > today voire : eventually, even # voir < Lat- vedere : to see – Welsh calon heart > calonnog hearty > said[kloNog] – cymydog > cymdogion neighbour > neighbours – Bulg-den day > dnes today – in French we have hesitations in long derived words, when the stress is lost by a syllable: verb to come back : (je) reviens > revenu /rv’ny/ /rv’ny/ -

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Serbo-Croatian: krš [kïrsh] : rock - sorry
    its karst, rock is stijena

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    in my dictionary it is rock and also rubble - for rock it gave also stena, a written form of your stijena; if I recall well, Bulgarian says stena for wall

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