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Thread: What do you think about the latest publication on the Eurogenes blog?

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    What do you think about the latest publication on the Eurogenes blog?

    Is the presence of the genetic component 'CHG' in the steppe a consensus? There seems to be a consensus that CHG is a relevant part of the steppe mixture, but in some media - such as Eurogenes - it still generates controversy. What do you think?


    Note: my intention is not to attack anyone in particular, just to probe opinions

    Link: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/0...iente-lux.html

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    what is the controversy?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ack View Post
    Is the presence of the genetic component 'CHG' in the steppe a consensus? There seems to be a consensus that CHG is a relevant part of the steppe mixture, but in some media - such as Eurogenes - it still generates controversy. What do you think?


    Note: my intention is not to attack anyone in particular, just to probe opinions

    Link: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/0...iente-lux.html
    Fear - I'd say "terror" - of not being "northern" enough ;)

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    Could you explain it better? Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    Fear - I'd say "terror" - of not being "northern" enough ;)

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    what's wrong with it?
    what's your explanation?
    you both comment as if you know better
    so, share me your knowledge

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    40%-50% CHG in Yamnaya is a fact based on David Anthony's reference from Lazaridis.
    There can be no covenants between men and lions

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    40%-50% CHG in Yamnaya is a fact based on David Anthony's reference from Lazaridis.
    I suspect their much of their phenotypic traits are a result of admixture with CHG. Especially if the EHG looked more like other Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherers, like the dark-skinned Cheddar man. The light skin mutation emerged in the middle east.

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    I did not understand your participation in the publication. I asked a question, but instead of answering it, you were hostile to it from the start. Then you said that we were both being arrogant? Be less passive aggressive and contribute by discussing the topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    what's wrong with it?
    what's your explanation?
    you both comment as if you know better
    so, share me your knowledge
    I did not understand your participation in the publication. I asked a question, but instead of answering it, you were hostile to it from the start. Then you said that we were both being arrogant? Be less passive aggressive and contribute by discussing the topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    40%-50% CHG in Yamnaya is a fact based on David Anthony's reference from Lazaridis.
    From what I know based on the scientific articles you are right, but then why does the Eurogenes blog do everything to soften the genetic influence 'CHG' in the steppe?

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    what's wrong with it?
    what's your explanation?
    you both comment as if you know better
    so, share me your knowledge
    Anyone with a minimum of practice here, knows very well that some blogs are heavily oriented with their agenda. Eurogenes - which will also have its merits and no one disputes them - still remains one of those.
    Their site can be controlled and remains available in its entirety to be sieved and understood or interpreted: CHG is a component that directly or indirectly is mainly linked to populations that currently do not enjoy great favors in the world imagination. Caucasians, Mediterranean, Levantines. I can understand that for those who have made hyperboreas their reason for living, being offered around 50% autosomal of Caucasian / Middle Eastern derivation is not particularly welcome.

    We will make it right

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    Anyone with a minimum of practice here, knows very well that some blogs are heavily oriented with their agenda. Eurogenes - which will also have its merits and no one disputes them - still remains one of those.
    Their site can be controlled and remains available in its entirety to be sieved and understood or interpreted: CHG is a component that directly or indirectly is mainly linked to populations that currently do not enjoy great favors in the world imagination. Caucasians, Mediterranean, Levantines. I can understand that for those who have made hyperboreas their reason for living, being offered around 50% autosomal of Caucasian / Middle Eastern derivation is not particularly welcome.

    We will make it right

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    Very good explanation for what has been obvious for years.


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    all of you, explain me what is wrong with the blog
    we all agree steppe has a large amount of CHG
    I don't see that disputed in the blog

    so tell me what is wrong with this blog, apart from being Eurogenes which you all obviously dislike
    still, you seem to read all these blogs, which I don't

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    if you want to know my view on the subject, here it is :

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...?highlight=chg

    steppe ancestry and CHG were formed at the same time, on a cline between Dzudzuana ancestry and ANE

    and this is how steppe ancestry moved north from the Caucasus to the Samara area :

    https://indo-european.eu/2019/08/don...naya-ancestry/

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    all of you, explain me what is wrong with the blog
    we all agree steppe has a large amount of CHG
    I don't see that disputed in the blog

    so tell me what is wrong with this blog, apart from being Eurogenes which you all obviously dislike
    still, you seem to read all these blogs, which I don't
    Do you really read the blog posts and the blog author's comments on the posts? It seems not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ack View Post
    Do you really read the blog posts and the blog author's comments on the posts? It seems not.
    Probably instead of searching peer validation, give us some concrete exemples so we can have our own jugement about the exemples in question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ack View Post
    Do you really read the blog posts and the blog author's comments on the posts? It seems not.
    no, I don't read Eurogenes, I just read this one in diagonal because you seem so interested
    for the third time, I ask you to point out what is wrong with it

    you seem to be looking around here for friends that share the same dislike of Eurogenes and Davidski
    well, there are some here

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The Eurogenes "fix" to the "calculator effect", only makes more biased results:

    On the so-called "Calculator Effect"


    The genome blogger Polako recently announced a calculator effect (May 2012) affecting admixture estimates:

    However, many people are getting skewed results, despite doing everything right. For instance, users from the UK often come out much more continental European than they should. Some of them actually believe that this is because they're genetically more Norman or Saxon than the average Brit. Nope, the real reason is what I call the "calculator effect". This is when the algorithm produces different results for people who are part of the original ADMIXTURE runs that set up the allele frequencies used by the calculators, than those who aren't, even though both sets of users are of exactly the same origin, and should expect basically identical results.

    This, however, was described by myself many months prior, in Novemeber 2011, following up on observations made during my first analysis of Yunusbayev et al. Armenians in September 2011. It has been listed in the Technical Stuff at the bottom of this blog ever since.

    I had observed at the time that the newly available Yunusbayev et al. Armenian sample appeared more "European" using the Dodecad v3 calculator tool, which had been built using the Project Armenians (Armenian_D) as well as the Armenian sample of Behar et al.

    I then explained why this was happening, and released new versions of the Dodecad tools, such as K12a, and K12b, and more recently K10a as new scientific and project participant samples became available.



    Polako also proposes a "solution" to the problem:

    I actually designed my Eurogenes ancestry tests for Gedmatch with this problem in mind, by only using academic references to source the allele frequencies. This means that test results for Eurogenes project members and non-members are directly comparable. Perhaps other genome bloggers can eventually do the same?
    The only effect of this "solution" is to ensure that there is a "calculator effect" for everyone using his tools. For example, if he uses only published Finns and Lithuanians to build his calculator, then every Finn and Lithuanian who takes his test will wonder why he is "different" from the published Finns and Lithuanians, because they will all suffer a "calculator effect" with respect to the reference populations. So, perhaps they will all be on equal footing with respect to each other, but their results will all be biased because of the issue I had identified.

    Moreover, their results will never improve as more people join his Project, because these new people will not be included in newer versions of calculators: all users of DIY Eurogenes tools will continue to receive sub-par results. Well, small consolation, at least they'll all receive comparable sub-par results.


    The solution to this problem was also described in my original post, and it's not an unimaginative quick fix of biasing everyone's results with respect to the reference populations:

    What can we do to solve this problem? Sample, sample, sample. There is no shortcut. The gross details of the genetic landscape (such as the relationship between major continental groups) are easy to infer, but the details will always have room for improvement.
    It is only by adequate sampling, that is by including more and more people, rather than excluding even the ones we have, that ever more accurate admixture estimators can be devised. As sample sizes grow (= more scientists publish their data, and more people join projects such as this one), allele frequencies of the different components will become ever more secure, and deviations of individuals who did not contribute to the inference of the genetic components will converge to zero.

    I am already quite confident that inclusion biases amount to only a few percent for Dodecad Project tools and only for the closely related components (e.g., West Asian vs. North European); as mentioned in my original post, these biases are trivial for more distantly related components (e.g., European vs. East Asian).

    And, the way to further reduce biases that do persist is to foster participation, rather than consign everyone to a sort of fossilized mediocrity, excluding whole populations of active direct-to-consumer customers (e.g., Norwegians, or Assyrians, or Iraqis, or Germans, or Koreans, or, ...) on the basis that no "academic reference" has made dense genotype data on them freely and publicly accessible.

    http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/08/...or-effect.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The Eurogenes "fix" to the "calculator effect", only makes more biased results:
    Are some people, including Eurogenes, still bringing up this red herring?

    Dienekes made mincemeat out of this argument long ago. I remember when he published this, and I remember people on various sites discussing it and admitting that he was correct. (Not Eurogenes, of course. He just ignored it.)

    Now the usual suspects have resurrected it hoping everyone has forgotten? Whether one agreed with all his conclusions or not, Dienekes' mastery of statistics was always obvious, as was the fact that Eurogenes just applies other people's programs.

    Not that you really needed advanced degrees in statistics to understand Dienekes' exposition. One just needs some reasoning ability.

    Anyway, thanks for republishing it, Jovialis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Are some people, including Eurogenes, still bringing up this red herring?
    That's exactly what he did when I posted my Ancient Rome Test based on Dodecad K12b:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post637802

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    That's exactly what he did when I posted my Ancient Rome Test based on Dodecad K12b:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post637802
    What a completely dishonest, unscrupulous man he is. I don't think he knows the meaning of the word integrity. A couple of days ago I went to his site after seeing some comments on this thread, and it was clear he was at it again with his tinkering with the data. A poster named Henrique Pais clearly showed how he cherry picks populations to get the results he wants from the algorithms.

    Not that it was any news to me, nor should it be any news to anyone who has been paying attention. I can just imagine his pms. Oh me, I'm such a victim. People are bullying me, trying to destroy my reputation when I've only ever been trying to do good work, and the worst are those people at eupedia, that joke of a site, who just hate me because I show they're not Indo-European like me and other Poles.

    As if I've ever given the slightest indication that I would prefer to be more Indo-European.

    Don't expect an honest debate from him; you won't get it.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ack View Post
    Is the presence of the genetic component 'CHG' in the steppe a consensus? There seems to be a consensus that CHG is a relevant part of the steppe mixture, but in some media - such as Eurogenes - it still generates controversy. What do you think?


    Note: my intention is not to attack anyone in particular, just to probe opinions

    Link: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/0...iente-lux.html
    I don't think the point of Davidski in Eurogenes is that it is not CHG. His belief is that "the" CHG we all talk about had is not directly ancestral to the related and broadly CHG admixture in the Pontic-Caspian Eneolithic and Bronze Age, but rather that a proto-CHG divided between a northern and a southern group, and part of that northern CHG migrated to the steppe and mixed there with EHG at a very early date in the steppe on the piedmont of the Caucasus, probably still in the 6th millennium B.C. or even before that.

    In any case, that CHG-like people were very closely related to "the" CHG we all know, so I don't see any reason to object using CHG as a proxy population until we have an unmixed Northern Caucasus CHG in the archaogenetic record. And that northern vs. southern divide probably didn't date to any time before the Mesolithic, therefore by the Eneolithic the CHG in the Pontic-Caspian Eneolithic and the CHG in the South Caucasus wouldn't be very drifted and different.

    Incidentally, I did such a hypothetical experiment by "simulating" the G25 coordinates of the CHG in the Eneolithic Steppe_Piedmont and Eneolithic Khvalynsk samples. The results were unsurprising: plotting the coordinates of that "hypothetical Northern CHG" on a West Eurasian PCA chart, the hypothetical Northern_CHG plots very close to the Kotias/Satsurblia CHG we all know, though it does not overlap it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I suspect their much of their phenotypic traits are a result of admixture with CHG. Especially if the EHG looked more like other Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherers, like the dark-skinned Cheddar man. The light skin mutation emerged in the middle east.
    The EHG had relatively light skin, so they were not like the WHG. Only about 1/4 to 1/3 of their ancestry was WHG-like.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    This is not directed at you, Ygorcs, but imo this is all "much ado about nothing."

    Who cares if it went onto the steppe in the 6th millennium BC or the 4th millennium BC? Does that change the genomics of it? Who cares if there are some minute differences between the "CHG" on the steppe and that in the Middle East?

    It's just stupid semantics or making claims he can't possibly prove just so he doesn't have to admit that the "steppe" people have a lot of ancestry very similar to that in Near Easterners. It's like his idiotic insistence that the ancestry in steppe people was "NEVER IN IRAN".

    What, doesn't he get paid unless he proves that? It's sickening but typical of him.
    Last edited by Angela; 05-03-20 at 01:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is not directed at you, Ygorcs, but imo this is all "much ado about nothing."

    Who cares if it went onto the steppe in the 6th millennium BC or the 4th millennium BC? Does that change the genomics of it? Who cares if there are some minute differences between the "CHG" on the steppe and that in the Middle East?

    It's just stupid semantics or making claims he can't possibly prove just so he doesn't have to admit that the "steppe" people have a lot of ancestry very similar to that in Near Easterners. It's like his idiotic insistence that the ancestry in steppe people was "NEVER IN IRAN".

    What, doesn't he get paid unless he proves that? It's sickening but typical of him.
    Hahaha good point about his unhealthy insistence on CHG "never in Iran, never, ever!" Why should it matter so much? I mean, it's not like the Piedmont Steppe just north of the North Caucasus is very far away from the Northern Iranian coast on the shores of the Caspian Sea. That area is almost, God forbid!, West Asian! Quite on the contrary, it's really, really close to northern Iran and Azerbaijan, especially if people knew how to navigate that closed ocean, which is very probably, given that many of those tribes once lived mainly as fishers and hunters. I also don't get Davidski's insistence on separating the CHG south of the Caucasus from the CHG north of it, the structure was probably not any higher than the internal structure between distinct EHG and WHG groups. I do get that he may be trying to say what I also believe, which is that the timing of the initial formation of the typical "steppe admixture" and the most likely timing of the early PIE language indicate a language being born in the steppe, not brought to the steppe... but he seems to be trying to make that CHG+EHG merge as early as possible. I think we can only say that it probably happened before the mid 5th millennium B.C., which is already old enough.

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