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Thread: What do you think about the latest publication on the Eurogenes blog?

  1. #26
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    Therefore, it's possible that herding was adopted by the ancestors of the Yamnaya people as a result of their sporadic contacts with populations living on the western edge of the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

    Eneolithic steppe is currently represented by just three samples in the ancient DNA record, and all of these individuals are from sites on the North Caucasus Piedmont steppe (two from Progress 2 and one from Vonyuchka 1).

    As a result, it might be tempting to argue that cultural, if not genetic, impulses from the Caucasus did play an important role in the formation of the Yamnaya and related peoples. However, it's important to note that the North Caucasus Piedmont steppe was the southern periphery of Eneolithic steppe territory.


    Since none of these Maykop individuals carried haplogroup R1b1a2, which is typical among Yamnaya steppe herders, this blogger may be right to argue that cultural influences from the south of the Pontic-Caspian steppe played an important role in the formation of the Yamnaya culture. Some Yamnaya individuals were buried in Maykop graves and it is certain that there was a cultural overlap between the two cultures. Even if there were a genetic overlap between the two peoples through intermarriages, its impact would have been marginal.


    Sample Site Age, BP Culture mtDNA Y-DNA

    AY2001.A0101.TF1.1 Aygurskiy 2 5271.5 Steppe Maykop T2e
    AY2003.A0101.TF1.1 Aygurskiy 2 5455.5 Steppe Maykop H2a1
    MK3003.A0101 Marinskaya 3 4476.5 Catacomb U4a2
    MK5012.A0101 Marinskaya 5 4663.5 Catacomb U5a1b1e ?
    RK4002.B0101 Rasshevatskiy 4 4610.0 Catacomb U4d3 R1b1a2
    RK4001.A0101 Rasshevatskiy 4 4277.0 Catacomb U5a1i R1b1a2
    SA6003.B0101 Sharakhalsun 6 4292.5 Catacomb U2e3a R1b1a2
    I6278 Shepsi 5200.0 Dolmen BA T1a2 ..
    I6281 Shepsi 5200.0 Dolmen BA U2e1 ..
    I2051 Marchenkova Gora, D13 3260.0 Dolmen LBA H6a1a2a J
    I2055 Unakozovskaya 6533.0 Eneolithic Caucasus R1a J
    I2056 Unakozovskaya 6477.5 Eneolithic Caucasus R1a J2a
    I1722 Unakozovskaya 6403.5 Eneolithic Caucasus R1a
    PG2001 Progress 2 6207.0 Eneolithic steppe I3a R1b1
    PG2004 Progress 2 6090.0 Eneolithic steppe H2 R1b1
    VJ1001 Vonyuchka 1 6242.0 Eneolithic steppe T2a1b
    ARM001.A0101 Kaps 5329.5 Kura-Araxes R1a1
    ARM002.A0101; ARM003 Kaps 5148.0 Kura-Araxes K3 G2b
    VEK006.A0101 Velikent 4850.0 Kura-Araxes U4a2
    VEK007.A0101; VEK009 Velikent 4850.0 Kura-Araxes U4a2 J1
    VEK008.A0101 Velikent 4850.0 Kura-Araxes U4a2 ?
    MK5008.B0101 Marinskaya 5 5185.5 Late Maykop T1a2 ?
    MK5004 Marinskaya 5 5171.0 Late Maykop T2al L
    MK5001 Marinskaya 5 5141.5 Late Maykop K1a4 L
    SIJ003.A0101 Sinyukha 5174.0 Late Maykop U4c1
    SIJ002.A0101 Sinyukha 5173.5 Late Maykop U4c1 L
    SIJ001.A01(SA6002.A01) Sinyukha 5125.5 Late Maykop U4c1
    KBD001 Kabardinka 4036.5 Late North Caucasus I4a R1b1a2
    KBD002.A0101 Kabardinka 4057.0 Late North Caucasus W1+119
    NV3001 Nevinnomiskiy 3 3970.5 Lola R1b Q1a2
    I1720 Baksanenok 5300.0 Maykop HV ?
    MK5007.B0101 Marinskaya 5 5455.0 Maykop U5a1b1
    OSS001.A0101 Nogir 3 5570.0 Maykop J2a1
    I6268 Klady 5564.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya R1a J2a1
    I6267 Klady 5438.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya T2c1
    I6270 Klady 5434.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya U1b ?
    I6266 Klady 5200.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya X2f J2a1
    I6272 Dlinnaya Polyana 5200.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya U1b1 G2a2a
    KDC001.A0101 Kudachurt 3823.5 MBA North Caucasus X2i J2b
    KDC002.A0101 Kudachurt 3734.5 MBA North Caucasus HV1a1
    BU2001.A0101 Beliy Ugol 2 4674.0 North Caucasus R1b1a2a2
    GW1001.A0101 Goryachevodskiy 2 4726.0 North Caucasus U2e1b R1b1a2a2
    I1723 Goryachevodskiy 2 4702.0 North Caucasus U5b2a1a R1b1a1a2a
    LYG001.A0101 Lysogorskaya 6 4672.0 North Caucasus H13a1a2 R1b1a2
    MK5009.A0101 Marinskaya 5 4710.0 North Caucasus R1a1a R1b1a2
    PG2002.A0101 Progress 2 4362.5 North Caucasus U1a1a3
    RK1003.C0101 Rasshevatskiy 1 4750.5 North Caucasus R1a1a
    SA6001.A0101 Sharakhalsun 6 5444.0 Steppe Maykop U7b
    SA6004 Sharakhalsun 6 5170.5 Steppe Maykop U7b Q1a2
    IV3002.A0101 Ipatovo 3 5206.5 Steppe Maykop outlier X1'2'3 ?
    SA6013.B0101 Sharakhalsun 6 5180.0 Steppe Maykop outlier I5b R1
    RK1007.A0101 Rasshevatskiy 1 5123.0 Yamnaya Caucasus T2a1
    RK1001.C0101 Rasshevatskiy 1 4726.0 Yamnaya Caucasus U5a1d R1b1a2
    SA6010.A0101 Sharakhalsun 6 4731.5 Yamnaya Caucasus U5a1g ?
    ZO2002.C0101 Zolotarevka 2 4850.0 Yamnaya Caucasus [email protected]
    Last edited by ThirdTerm; 06-03-20 at 00:17.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdTerm View Post

    Since none of these Maykop individuals carried haplogroup R1b1a1, which is typical among Yamnaya steppe herders, this blogger may be right to argue that cultural influences from the south of the Pontic-Caspian steppe played an important role in the formation of the Yamnaya culture. Some Yamnaya individuals were buried in Maykop graves and it is certain that there was a cultural overlap between the two cultures. Even if there were a genetic overlap between the two peoples through intermarriages, its impact would have been marginal.
    indeed, the genetic impact of Maykop to steppe is restricted to those 2 outliers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is not directed at you, Ygorcs, but imo this is all "much ado about nothing."

    Who cares if it went onto the steppe in the 6th millennium BC or the 4th millennium BC? Does that change the genomics of it? Who cares if there are some minute differences between the "CHG" on the steppe and that in the Middle East?

    It's just stupid semantics or making claims he can't possibly prove just so he doesn't have to admit that the "steppe" people have a lot of ancestry very similar to that in Near Easterners. It's like his idiotic insistence that the ancestry in steppe people was "NEVER IN IRAN".

    What, doesn't he get paid unless he proves that? It's sickening but typical of him.
    for anyone who is interested in archeogenomics the how and when of the formation of CHG and steppe admixture should be a topic

    I explained before, I even started a thread on the subject, IMO CHG and steppe were formed at the same time 15 - 14 ka on both sides of the Caucasus
    that means that the formation of CHG was induced as much by admixture from the north as the formation of steppe was induced by admixture coming from Transcaucasia

    EHG is more or less on a cline between WHG and ANE

    and CHG and steppe are both on a cline between Dzudzuana and a EHG/ANE mixture

    can anyone check that?

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    What I think about the latest publication is what I think about most of his publications. I take it with a grain of salt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's just stupid semantics or making claims he can't possibly prove just so he doesn't have to admit that the "steppe" people have a lot of ancestry very similar to that in Near Easterners. It's like his idiotic insistence that the ancestry in steppe people was "NEVER IN IRAN".
    That is actually what he is trying to prove over and over again. That the CHG in the Yamnaya has ideally did not come from the Caucasus or at least had no connection to the Iranian Plateau. Since I was away I looked from time to time into his blog (once per month maybe) and it has always been about this. Disproving any connection from Yamnaya to anything south of it, especially the South Caucasus or the Iranian Plateau.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    for anyone who is interested in archeogenomics the how and when of the formation of CHG and steppe admixture should be a topic

    I explained before, I even started a thread on the subject, IMO CHG and steppe were formed at the same time 15 - 14 ka on both sides of the Caucasus
    that means that the formation of CHG was induced as much by admixture from the north as the formation of steppe was induced by admixture coming from Transcaucasia

    EHG is more or less on a cline between WHG and ANE

    and CHG and steppe are both on a cline between Dzudzuana and a EHG/ANE mixture

    can anyone check that?
    Here is the wikipedia page, on ANE, it seems to have a pretty comprehensive breakdown. Though I would need to verify if the sources actually say what is written:

    Groups derived from the Ancient North Eurasians

    Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) is a lineage derived predominantly (75%) from ANE.[2] It is represented by two individuals from Karelia, one of Y-haplogroup R1a-M417, dated c. 8.4 kya, the other of Y-haplogroup J, dated c. 7.2 kya; and one individual from Samara, of Y-haplogroup R1b-P297, dated c. 7.6 kya. This lineage is closely related to the ANE sample from Afontova Gora, dated c. 18 kya. After the end of the Last Glacial Maximum, the WHG and EHG lineages merged in Eastern Europe, accounting for early presence of ANE-derived ancestry in Mesolithic Europe. Evidence suggests that as Ancient North Eurasians migrated West from Eastern Siberia, they absorbed Western Hunter-Gatherers and other West Eurasian populations as well.[8]



    Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer (CHG) is represented by the Satsurblia individual dated ~13 kya (from the Satsurblia cave in Georgia), and carried 36% ANE-derived admixture.[9] While the rest of their ancestry is derived from the Dzudzuana cave individual dated ~26 kya, which lacked ANE-admixture,[9] Dzudzuana affinity in the Caucasus decreased with the arrival of ANE at ~13 kya Satsurblia.[9]



    Scandinavian Hunter-Gatherer (SHG) is represented by several individuals buried at Motala, Sweden ca. 6000 BC. They were descended from Western Hunter-Gatherers who initially settled Scandinavia from the south, and later populations of EHG who entered Scandinavia from the north through the coast of Norway.[10][11][12][13][14]



    Iran Neolithic (Iran_N) individuals dated ~8.5 kya carried 50% ANE-derived admixture and 50% Dzudzuana-related admixture,[9] marking them as different from other Near-Eastern and Anatolian Neolithics who didn't have ANE admixture.[9] Iran Neolithics were later replaced by Iran Chalcolithics, who were a mixture of Iran Neolithic and Near Eastern Levant Neolithic.[2]



    Ancient Beringian/Ancestral Native American are specific archaeogenetic lineages, based on the genome of an infant found at the Upward Sun River site (dubbed USR1), dated to 11,500 years ago.[15] The AB lineage diverged from the Ancestral Native American (ANA) lineage about 20,000 years ago. The ANA lineage was estimated as been formed 20,000 ago by a mixture of and Ancient North Eurasian (42-43%) and East Eurasian (57-58%) lineage consistent with the model of the peopling of the Americas via Beringia during the Last Glacial Maximum.[16]



    West Siberian Hunter-Gatherer (WSG) are a specific archaeogenetic lineage, first reported in a genetic study published in Science in September 2019. WSGs were found to be of about 30% EHG ancestry, 50% ANE ancestry, and 20% East Asian ancestry.[17]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_North_Eurasian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here is the wikipedia page, on ANE, it seems to have a pretty comprehensive breakdown. Though I would need to verify if the sources actually say what is written:
    The Wikipedia article isn't very correct though. EHG is more like 40-50% ANE.
    I doubt the other 50% in Iran_Neo is real Dzudzuana. More like a relative pop. And before the appearancr of this Dzudzuana sample CHG was modeled like 70% ANE like. Makes me wonder that Dzudzuana has shared ancestry with Mal'ta.
    In fact I believe this Dzudzuana individual might be best represented by Haplogroup IJ.
    In fact I always thought Basal Eurasian is best represented by yDNA G (E and F represent pre Basal pre Dzudzuana Eurasians before the split.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    The Wikipedia article isn't very correct though. EHG is more like 40-50% ANE.
    I doubt the other 50% in Iran_Neo is real Dzudzuana. More like a relative pop. And before the appearancr of this Dzudzuana sample CHG was modeled like 70% ANE like. Makes me wonder that Dzudzuana has shared ancestry with Mal'ta.
    In fact I believe this Dzudzuana individual might be best represented by Haplogroup IJ.
    In fact I always thought Basal Eurasian is best represented by yDNA G (E and F represent pre Basal pre Dzudzuana Eurasians before the split.)
    I think Dzudzuana = haplogroup IJ + Basal Eurasian,
    and Basal Eurasian was brought by haplogroups G and H2.

    Furthermore, haplogroup I2 (the Villabruna cluster, mesolithic western Europe) = haplogroup IJ + some drift.

    This is speculation of course, but it fits with the modelling in the Laziridis Dzudzuana paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    The Wikipedia article isn't very correct though. EHG is more like 40-50% ANE.
    I doubt the other 50% in Iran_Neo is real Dzudzuana. More like a relative pop. And before the appearancr of this Dzudzuana sample CHG was modeled like 70% ANE like. Makes me wonder that Dzudzuana has shared ancestry with Mal'ta.
    In fact I believe this Dzudzuana individual might be best represented by Haplogroup IJ.
    In fact I always thought Basal Eurasian is best represented by yDNA G (E and F represent pre Basal pre Dzudzuana Eurasians before the split.)
    Here is the reference that the wiki page cites, for EHG being 75% ANE:

    Eastern Hunter Gatherers (EHG) derive ~3/4 of their ancestry from the ANE (Supplementary Information, section 11);

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5003663/

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    [QUOTE=bicicleur;598244]I think Dzudzuana = haplogroup IJ + Basal Eurasian,
    and Basal Eurasian was brought by haplogroups G and H2.

    Furthermore, haplogroup I2 (the Villabruna cluster, mesolithic western Europe) = haplogroup IJ + some drift.

    But Dzudzuana itself is made up of a Villabruna like population ( very old WHG) and Basal Eurasian . IIRC Dzudzuana is 72% Villabruna and 28% Basal.

    So the steppe eneolithic cluster ( EHG+CHG) could very well be something like 50% WHG. Even if the WHG in CHG and EHG are of a different time. WHG in EGH is clearly younger and likely is Mesolithic WHG ( Villabruna proper).

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    [QUOTE=etrusco;598248]
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I think Dzudzuana = haplogroup IJ + Basal Eurasian,
    and Basal Eurasian was brought by haplogroups G and H2.
    Furthermore, haplogroup I2 (the Villabruna cluster, mesolithic western Europe) = haplogroup IJ + some drift.
    But Dzudzuana itself is made up of a Villabruna like population ( very old WHG) and Basal Eurasian . IIRC Dzudzuana is 72% Villabruna and 28% Basal.
    So the steppe eneolithic cluster ( EHG+CHG) could very well be something like 50% WHG. Even if the WHG in CHG and EHG are of a different time. WHG in EGH is clearly younger and likely is Mesolithic WHG ( Villabruna proper).
    please check

    Attachment 11846

    supplements p32 : modelling CHG



    tree.jpg
    main tree :
    IMO common west Eurasian = haplo IJ
    Villabruna = haplo I2, common west Eurasian + drift

    and EHG = 75 % ANE
    ANE = Mal'ta in the tree = haplo QR during LGM

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I explained before, I even started a thread on the subject, IMO CHG and steppe were formed at the same time 15 - 14 ka on both sides of the Caucasus
    that means that the formation of CHG was induced as much by admixture from the north as the formation of steppe was induced by admixture coming from Transcaucasia

    EHG is more or less on a cline between WHG and ANE

    and CHG and steppe are both on a cline between Dzudzuana and a EHG/ANE mixture

    can anyone check that?
    But where would that 15-14 ka Steppe Admixture be located? Steppe Admixture, with its typical combination of a lot of EH with some significant proportion of CHG, can only be found in the aDNA ataset from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe from the 5th millennium B.C. I think it's probable that it was already found at least in the vicinity of the North Caucasus before that, but, if it had been formed a lot before the 5000-4300 B.C. period, then it was very restricted to the North Caucasus piedmont area before the Neolithic. I say that because all the HG aDNA samples from the Ukrainian and Russian steppe are overwhelmingly EHG and/or CHG, and there's a sudden increase in the CHG admixture when Khvalynsk, Sredny Stog and Eneolithic Steppe Piedmont (Progress/Vonyuchka) appear in the 5th millennium B.C. Before that, the CHG in Ukraine and Russia seems to have been very, very minor, and in Ukraine there was a lot of WHG that disappeared after the Neolithic except in the Dereivka samples (which also saw a significant increase in the CHG component)... so I think the data are telling us that some major changes happened between the Neolithic and the Eneolithic in the entire Pontic-Caspian zone.

    See what my models show for the available G25 samples from Ukraine: https://imgur.com/a/CWeVy3X

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    But where would that 15-14 ka Steppe Admixture be located? Steppe Admixture, with its typical combination of a lot of EH with some significant proportion of CHG, can only be found in the aDNA ataset from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe from the 5th millennium B.C. I think it's probable that it was already found at least in the vicinity of the North Caucasus before that, but, if it had been formed a lot before the 5000-4300 B.C. period, then it was very restricted to the North Caucasus piedmont area before the Neolithic. I say that because all the HG aDNA samples from the Ukrainian and Russian steppe are overwhelmingly EHG and/or CHG, and there's a sudden increase in the CHG admixture when Khvalynsk, Sredny Stog and Eneolithic Steppe Piedmont (Progress/Vonyuchka) appear in the 5th millennium B.C. Before that, the CHG in Ukraine and Russia seems to have been very, very minor, and in Ukraine there was a lot of WHG that disappeared after the Neolithic except in the Dereivka samples (which also saw a significant increase in the CHG component)... so I think the data are telling us that some major changes happened between the Neolithic and the Eneolithic in the entire Pontic-Caspian zone.

    See what my models show for the available G25 samples from Ukraine: https://imgur.com/a/CWeVy3X
    indeed, it would have been restricted to Ciskaukasia untill ca 8,2 ka when hunter-fishers started moving up the lower Volga area eventualy reaching the Samara bend ca 6.6 ka
    the majority of these fisher-hunters were R1b, and I suspect R1b-V1636

    the oldest DNA from Ciskaukasia we have is from the Wang paper, with R1b-V1636
    there is appearantly a new paper behind a paywall : New paper (behind paywall) by David Anthony, Archaeology, Genetics, and Language in the Steppes: A Comment on Bomhard
    check this out : https://indo-european.eu/2019/08/don...naya-ancestry/ (take his conclusions with a pinch of salt)
    and this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khvaly...lture#Genetics

    it makes sense to me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here is the reference that the wiki page cites, for EHG being 75% ANE:
    In G25 all models I tried also give ~75% ANE to EHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    indeed, it would have been restricted to Ciskaukasia untill ca 8,2 ka when hunter-fishers started moving up the lower Volga area eventualy reaching the Samara bend ca 6.6 ka
    the majority of these fisher-hunters were R1b, and I suspect R1b-V1636

    the oldest DNA from Ciskaukasia we have is from the Wang paper, with R1b-V1636
    there is appearantly a new paper behind a paywall : New paper (behind paywall) by David Anthony, Archaeology, Genetics, and Language in the Steppes: A Comment on Bomhard
    check this out : https://indo-european.eu/2019/08/don...naya-ancestry/ (take his conclusions with a pinch of salt)
    and this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khvaly...lture#Genetics

    it makes sense to me
    If that were the case, then that could explain why I always get some % of Vonyuchka_Eneolithic or Progress_Eneolithic in nearly all the samples from Chalcolithic and EBA West Asia and Turan, as part of the best fitting model for them using all the available average population DNA samples from before the Bronze Age. The Vonyucha/Progress-like admixture from just north of the Caucasus may have already spilled southward (maybe via Dagestan and modern Azerbaijan) to Transcaucasia and beyond even before the end of the Copper Age (maybe that's why Anatolian was so divergent?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    If that were the case, then that could explain why I always get some % of Vonyuchka_Eneolithic or Progress_Eneolithic in nearly all the samples from Chalcolithic and EBA West Asia and Turan, as part of the best fitting model for them using all the available average population DNA samples from before the Bronze Age. The Vonyucha/Progress-like admixture from just north of the Caucasus may have already spilled southward (maybe via Dagestan and modern Azerbaijan) to Transcaucasia and beyond even before the end of the Copper Age (maybe that's why Anatolian was so divergent?).
    the Progress/Vonyuchka are R1b-V1636. They split from R1b-P297 ca 15,7 ka.
    R1b-P297 went upstream the Volga basin and R1b-V1636 went south to Ciskaukasia where they admixed with the Dzudzuana creating steppe.
    The Dzudzuana in Transcaucasia admixed with R1b-V1636 creating CHG.
    CHG and steppe should be more or less on a cline between ANE/EHG and Dzudzuana

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    If that were the case, then that could explain why I always get some % of Vonyuchka_Eneolithic or Progress_Eneolithic in nearly all the samples from Chalcolithic and EBA West Asia and Turan, as part of the best fitting model for them using all the available average population DNA samples from before the Bronze Age. The Vonyucha/Progress-like admixture from just north of the Caucasus may have already spilled southward (maybe via Dagestan and modern Azerbaijan) to Transcaucasia and beyond even before the end of the Copper Age (maybe that's why Anatolian was so divergent?).
    Yes, my opinion is tilting in the same direction, a small group related to the Khvalynsk (mainly R1b-V1636) must have crossed the Caucasus and have been succesfull enough to sustain and spread the Anatolian languages, but I have no clue how and when this happened. I'd say somewhere between 6,5 and 5 ka.

    Samara HG was probably R1b-P297* (according to Genetiker), Khvalynsk was probably a merger between the R1b-V1636 fisher-gatherers from Ciskaukasia with a few of the Samara HG. None of them were R1b-M269.
    My guess is that the Khvalynsk spoke PIE and the Repin which arrived 5,95 ka in the Don-Volga area were the R1b-M269 tribe coming from the north. R1b-M269 was still a small tribe then, they were EHG but through admixing with the larger Khvalynsk tribes they got the Khvalynsk steppe DNA and IE language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I suspect their much of their phenotypic traits are a result of admixture with CHG. Especially if the EHG looked more like other Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherers, like the dark-skinned Cheddar man. The light skin mutation emerged in the middle east.
    We don't know exactly when and where the first mutation arise (more than one, do keep in mind). It could have arisen between S-E Europe and Anatolia as well or even rather than in Middle East.
    Apparently one of the principal ones would have appeared first among Neolithic people, rather on the EEF/ANF side (Dzudzuana heritages rather than the ghost 'basal eurasian'???); concerning the second more important mutation, I don't know for sure. Maybe I forgot something?
    After, the selection(s) of all kinds make the job.

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    Without criticizing Davidski's "work", as supporter or opponent (I haven't the skills, spite I find his approach is sometimes very "selective"), I think the point is not without importance: the dates of crossings between EHG and CHG can have some weight in the linguisitic/cultural debate about IEans, so History.
    Otherwise, as say someones, EHG and CHG shared a lot of common far ancestry, as all of us, and after some (back)matings, the differences could have been gradual among some between groups North the Caucasus, since a long enough time. Maybe am I wrong.

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    Discussing CHG or Light Skin with personal opinions do not make a slight sense either when trying to disprove someones opinion.

    I think Davidski has mostly the idea that CHG is a long standing component of the Caucasus, coming from both North and South of it from long before the whole Chalcolithic Steppe Indo-European et caetera problem. Probably going along the idea that maybe Southern Steppe and Caucasus was populated by Dzudzuana-like population already in the Paleolithic and becoming CHG when they got some EHG input at some point in the Epipaleolithic/Mesolithic.

    The idea of linking whole CHG with Iran_Neo or even the territory of Iran is speculative anyway. Why should it be from South and not from North? It's a component build up from a Southern one ( Dzudzuana ) and a Northern one ( ANE-EHG ) and we still dont know where it formed or the extent of its range.

    However as someone that kind of read the comments section on eurogenes, i have multiple times stumble onto davidski saying " let's see for it with more datas ", especially with potential sources like Shulaveri-Shomu that could have contributed this ancestry to southern steppe. Meaning he is not that stubborn about his own hypothesis that some people would think.

    Also, putting forwards what davidski said 10-5 years ago in a certain topic as a way to disprove is actual work, or some of its actual work, is wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I suspect their much of their phenotypic traits are a result of admixture with CHG. Especially if the EHG looked more like other Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherers, like the dark-skinned Cheddar man. The light skin mutation emerged in the middle east.
    EHG was quite different from WHG. Based on what I have seen, late ANE like AG2 and basically all EHG had light skin and on pigmentation charts EHG turns up lighter than CHG and Yamnaya in all aspects (skin, eyes and hair).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    as I see it now, the light skin is likely coming from the Basal Eurasian, and it spread through Dzudzuana
    but maybe ANE reinforced it

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    as I see it now, the light skin is likely coming from the Basal Eurasian, and it spread through Dzudzuana
    but maybe ANE reinforced it
    I doubt that it is basal with a broad brush since one of the most basal rich samples known: the Zagros neolithic ones were only partially selected for the derived variant of A5 and only had the ancestral variant for A2. Has to be a more specific basal subpopulation. Anatolia did have light/derived pigmentation of both kinds early on in the pre pottery neolithic, but I am not sure if those were present in the epipaleolithic Pinarbasi. Does someone know about the Pinarbasi details? As far as I know, AG2 has the light variants for SLC24A5.
    The coalescence of the light skin variant for SLC24A5 is dated to somewhere between 22,000 and 28,000 years ago while the selective sweeps happened 11,000 to 19,000 years ago. For all we know both Epipaleolithic Anatolia and late western ANE could have had a moderately high frequency of the 2 light skinned variants and we just don't have a large enough sample size to prove it yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    as I see it now, the light skin is likely coming from the Basal Eurasian, and it spread through Dzudzuana
    but maybe ANE reinforced it
    you do not think that skin colour is a change of pigmentation over time ( a long long time ) depending on where one lives?

    Eskimo people have dark skin to protest themselves from the suns rays .............lighter skin is due to the body wanting to absorb more vitamin D via the sun ............
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-Y33791
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    you do not think that skin colour is a change of pigmentation over time ( a long long time ) depending on where one lives?

    Eskimo people have dark skin to protest themselves from the suns rays .............lighter skin is due to the body wanting to absorb more vitamin D via the sun ............
    it's a matter of genes, isn't it?
    some genes will prosper through selection and adaptations to new environments or diets,
    but that is a matter of several generations

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