What do you think about the latest publication on the Eurogenes blog?

If that were the case, then that could explain why I always get some % of Vonyuchka_Eneolithic or Progress_Eneolithic in nearly all the samples from Chalcolithic and EBA West Asia and Turan, as part of the best fitting model for them using all the available average population DNA samples from before the Bronze Age. The Vonyucha/Progress-like admixture from just north of the Caucasus may have already spilled southward (maybe via Dagestan and modern Azerbaijan) to Transcaucasia and beyond even before the end of the Copper Age (maybe that's why Anatolian was so divergent?).

the Progress/Vonyuchka are R1b-V1636. They split from R1b-P297 ca 15,7 ka.
R1b-P297 went upstream the Volga basin and R1b-V1636 went south to Ciskaukasia where they admixed with the Dzudzuana creating steppe.
The Dzudzuana in Transcaucasia admixed with R1b-V1636 creating CHG.
CHG and steppe should be more or less on a cline between ANE/EHG and Dzudzuana
 
If that were the case, then that could explain why I always get some % of Vonyuchka_Eneolithic or Progress_Eneolithic in nearly all the samples from Chalcolithic and EBA West Asia and Turan, as part of the best fitting model for them using all the available average population DNA samples from before the Bronze Age. The Vonyucha/Progress-like admixture from just north of the Caucasus may have already spilled southward (maybe via Dagestan and modern Azerbaijan) to Transcaucasia and beyond even before the end of the Copper Age (maybe that's why Anatolian was so divergent?).

Yes, my opinion is tilting in the same direction, a small group related to the Khvalynsk (mainly R1b-V1636) must have crossed the Caucasus and have been succesfull enough to sustain and spread the Anatolian languages, but I have no clue how and when this happened. I'd say somewhere between 6,5 and 5 ka.

Samara HG was probably R1b-P297* (according to Genetiker), Khvalynsk was probably a merger between the R1b-V1636 fisher-gatherers from Ciskaukasia with a few of the Samara HG. None of them were R1b-M269.
My guess is that the Khvalynsk spoke PIE and the Repin which arrived 5,95 ka in the Don-Volga area were the R1b-M269 tribe coming from the north. R1b-M269 was still a small tribe then, they were EHG but through admixing with the larger Khvalynsk tribes they got the Khvalynsk steppe DNA and IE language.
 
I suspect their much of their phenotypic traits are a result of admixture with CHG. Especially if the EHG looked more like other Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherers, like the dark-skinned Cheddar man. The light skin mutation emerged in the middle east.

We don't know exactly when and where the first mutation arise (more than one, do keep in mind). It could have arisen between S-E Europe and Anatolia as well or even rather than in Middle East.
Apparently one of the principal ones would have appeared first among Neolithic people, rather on the EEF/ANF side (Dzudzuana heritages rather than the ghost 'basal eurasian'???); concerning the second more important mutation, I don't know for sure. Maybe I forgot something?
After, the selection(s) of all kinds make the job.
 
Without criticizing Davidski's "work", as supporter or opponent (I haven't the skills, spite I find his approach is sometimes very "selective"), I think the point is not without importance: the dates of crossings between EHG and CHG can have some weight in the linguisitic/cultural debate about IEans, so History.
Otherwise, as say someones, EHG and CHG shared a lot of common far ancestry, as all of us, and after some (back)matings, the differences could have been gradual among some between groups North the Caucasus, since a long enough time. Maybe am I wrong.
 
Discussing CHG or Light Skin with personal opinions do not make a slight sense either when trying to disprove someones opinion.

I think Davidski has mostly the idea that CHG is a long standing component of the Caucasus, coming from both North and South of it from long before the whole Chalcolithic Steppe Indo-European et caetera problem. Probably going along the idea that maybe Southern Steppe and Caucasus was populated by Dzudzuana-like population already in the Paleolithic and becoming CHG when they got some EHG input at some point in the Epipaleolithic/Mesolithic.

The idea of linking whole CHG with Iran_Neo or even the territory of Iran is speculative anyway. Why should it be from South and not from North? It's a component build up from a Southern one ( Dzudzuana ) and a Northern one ( ANE-EHG ) and we still dont know where it formed or the extent of its range.

However as someone that kind of read the comments section on eurogenes, i have multiple times stumble onto davidski saying " let's see for it with more datas ", especially with potential sources like Shulaveri-Shomu that could have contributed this ancestry to southern steppe. Meaning he is not that stubborn about his own hypothesis that some people would think.

Also, putting forwards what davidski said 10-5 years ago in a certain topic as a way to disprove is actual work, or some of its actual work, is wrong.
 
as I see it now, the light skin is likely coming from the Basal Eurasian, and it spread through Dzudzuana
but maybe ANE reinforced it
 
as I see it now, the light skin is likely coming from the Basal Eurasian, and it spread through Dzudzuana
but maybe ANE reinforced it

you do not think that skin colour is a change of pigmentation over time ( a long long time ) depending on where one lives?

Eskimo people have dark skin to protest themselves from the suns rays .............lighter skin is due to the body wanting to absorb more vitamin D via the sun ............
 
you do not think that skin colour is a change of pigmentation over time ( a long long time ) depending on where one lives?

Eskimo people have dark skin to protest themselves from the suns rays .............lighter skin is due to the body wanting to absorb more vitamin D via the sun ............

it's a matter of genes, isn't it?
some genes will prosper through selection and adaptations to new environments or diets,
but that is a matter of several generations
 
It's all probably more complicated than that, and probably has much more to do with nutrition and environment than with any specific sub-population.

Light skin : Afontovagora 2, Satsturblia, Natufian I1072, Near East PPN Bon002, Ukraine Meso, Iran EN WC1, Kotias Meso, Norway Hummer Vik Meso, Serbia Meso, Sweden Meso, Latvia Meso, Kennewick man, etc...

Also, see the very "unpredictable" distribution of blond hair, scattered randomly among ancient samples, until it seems to finally aggregate around the Baltic, notably among GAC people, and derived. There's even a light-skinned, blond-haired, blue-eyed guy in North West Early Neolithic Anatolia (I1580)!

It's all there : https://genetiker.wordpress.com/pigmentation/
 
I still bet at some point Denisova or Neanderthal will turn with fair features.
 
I still bet at some point Denisova or Neanderthal will turn with fair features.

Pigmentation:

What
A unique Neanderthal version of the gene MC1R, associated with fair or red hair and lighter skin.

Why
A genetic variant that became widespread among modern humans because of the advantages it conferred in areas with less sunlight.

How
Interbreeding between modern humans and Neanderthals.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-(Neanderthal)?p=565357&viewfull=1#post565357
 
Pigmentation:

What
A unique Neanderthal version of the gene MC1R, associated with fair or red hair and lighter skin.

Why
A genetic variant that became widespread among modern humans because of the advantages it conferred in areas with less sunlight.

How
Interbreeding between modern humans and Neanderthals.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-(Neanderthal)?p=565357&viewfull=1#post565357


Not sure to understand, is this confirmed in some previous studies that some Neanderthals had a unique version of the MC1R gene and that it made some of them fair?
 
It's all probably more complicated than that, and probably has much more to do with nutrition and environment than with any specific sub-population.

Light skin : Afontovagora 2, Satsturblia, Natufian I1072, Near East PPN Bon002, Ukraine Meso, Iran EN WC1, Kotias Meso, Norway Hummer Vik Meso, Serbia Meso, Sweden Meso, Latvia Meso, Kennewick man, etc...

Also, see the very "unpredictable" distribution of blond hair, scattered randomly among ancient samples, until it seems to finally aggregate around the Baltic, notably among GAC people, and derived. There's even a light-skinned, blond-haired, blue-eyed guy in North West Early Neolithic Anatolia (I1580)!

It's all there : https://genetiker.wordpress.com/pigmentation/


I agree as a whole; but mutations are at first linked to individual(s) and then to pop (even if not general in it) and need exchanges and crossings to expand and to be selected. After that, yes, climate and diet can do the work, it's evident.
to others:
our light skin mutated genes (Europeans) as the East-Asians one, have not been inherited from Neanderthal who had another mutation: it is not very new. ATW, all Neanderthals were not light skinned by force, according to places.
Concerning the selection of light skin genes, I think the process has been more complicated than believed by someones. Perhaps the selection (beside a possible sexual one) was favoured or hindered by a polygenic problem implying at the same time more than a vital vs letal question ?
&: apart: I have always thought that a late selection of light skin in North was curious for people living often warmly dressed against cold weather. It seems weather has been a bit warmer at some time there, but not 6 ky ago or sooner?...
 
Not sure to understand, is this confirmed in some previous studies that some Neanderthals had a unique version of the gene and that it made some of them fair?
MRC1 - MC1R

... MRC1 was sequenced using DNA from two Neanderthal specimens from Spain and Italy ...

... Modern humans display similar mutations of MC1R ...

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence...and-neanderthals/dna-genotypes-and-phenotypes


I think: MRC1 is the Neanderthal version of the Modern Human MC1R
 
@Salento and others
Let's recall

Ancient DNA has been used to show aspects of Neanderthal appearance. A fragment of the gene for the melanocortin 1 receptor (MRC1) was sequenced using DNA from two Neanderthal specimens from Spain and Italy: El Sidrón 1252 and Monte Lessini (Lalueza-Fox et al. 2007). MC1R is a receptor gene that controls the production of melanin, the protein responsible for pigmentation of the hair and skin. Neanderthals had a mutation in this receptor gene which changed an amino acid, making the resulting protein less efficient and likely creating a phenotype of red hair and pale skin. (The reconstruction below of a male Neanderthal by John Gurche features pale skin, but not red hair) .How do we know what this phenotype would have looked like? Modern humans display similar mutations of MC1R, and people who have two copies of this mutation have red hair and pale skin. However, no modern human has the exact mutation that Neanderthals had, which means that both Neanderthals and humans evolved this phenotype independent of each other.

similar # identical
MRC1 & MC1R are maybe the same thing in different languages? (as DNA and ADN in English and French)
But no, these mutations were not exactly the same ones, but had the same effect: red hair and lightER skin (not by force very light skin, maybe?: I saw some metis of the blend "white"-"negro" with red hair but not fully white skin surely because other genes or loci (darkening) were at work, inherited from SSA.
 
erratum: from wikipedia
I wrote : "MRC1 & MC1R are maybe the same thing in different languages? (as DNA and ADN in English and French)..."
I'm laughable! Here under the explanation: it seems they are 2 different things
Mannose receptor C-type 1 MC1R (one variant: there are too MC2R, MC3R, MC4R & MC5R) is a protein that in humans is encoded by the MRC1 gene
# MelanoCortin 1 Receptor: MC1R

But no only me was wrong: MRCA could not be for MelanoCortin 1 Receptor!!! it's typo in the paper report.
 
I'm tired! I crossed my writings:
put in order: for melanin, only MC1R (or MC2R etc...)
# MRC1: mannose receptor C 1
Sorry, too much pancakes this evening, and too much wine? I'm going to bed!
 
erratum: from wikipedia
I wrote : "MRC1 & MC1R are maybe the same thing in different languages? (as DNA and ADN in English and French)..."
I'm laughable! Here under the explanation: it seems they are 2 different things
Mannose receptor C-type 1 MC1R (one variant: there are too MC2R, MC3R, MC4R & MC5R) is a protein that in humansis encoded by theMRC1gene
# MelanoCortin 1 Receptor: MC1R

But no only me was wrong: MRCA could not be for MelanoCortin 1 Receptor!!! it's typo in the paper report.

I do not have the MC1R variants related to red hair,
yDjIkbq.jpg


CtH2GQl.jpg



But I have these ones modern variants that influence the final phenotype, according “yourDNAportal”.

daSIGnv.jpg


7cFAvFK.jpg


N8nfaZA.jpg
 
erratum: from wikipedia
I wrote : "MRC1 & MC1R are maybe the same thing in different languages? (as DNA and ADN in English and French)..."
I'm laughable! Here under the explanation: it seems they are 2 different things
Mannose receptor C-type 1 MC1R (one variant: there are too MC2R, MC3R, MC4R & MC5R) is a protein that in humansis encoded by theMRC1gene
# MelanoCortin 1 Receptor: MC1R

But no only me was wrong: MRCA could not be for MelanoCortin 1 Receptor!!! it's typo in the paper report.

The example of the world wide more seldom red hair snp in MCR1 shows IMO these trait has most probably multiple sources.

This is from 23and Me:

5frbom99.png


My impression:

MC1R R51C is most 'Celtic' West European red hair type, connected with Indo-Europeans?

MC1R D294H is Isles and France/Belgium, Swiss, looks a bit LaTene.

MC1R R160W is typical NE European (high in Sweden/ Baltic), the parts of Europe with the highest HG level, we already found this along Moltala samples.

The last one is also my red hair variant (my HG level is that of Sweden/Poland).

ysei0g7.50.08.png
 
Thnaks, Northerner, mijn beste vriend (Dutch ancient learner's tempered humor), I saw this maps (found on this forum, I suppose);
in Australia they found 7 variants associated with to hair on their Euro's, but with different penetrance (efficacity).
BTW the third variant on the above maps, rather high in percentage there, seem having produced less characterised red hair than the two "Western" ones. But I'm not sure these % reflect accutely the true input of these variants in the pops, because I think there has not been sufficient samples in everyplace to make it sure.
And I wonder what kind of mutation has Mordwins.
Goede slaap, slimme en leergierige vriend.
 

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