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Thread: French Crusader descendants in Turkish village?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    2 members found this post helpful.

    French Crusader descendants in Turkish village?

    Hi everyone!

    Me and a male relative from the same village tested our DNA. On autosomal level our DNA was like the rest of the people from our region.

    But the Y-DNA was everything else than Turkish. We both share the Haplogroup I1 which is dominant in Northern Europe. I share the Subclade I1-L22>Z74>CTS2208>FGC12562>BY47171.
    My relative shares another subclade. I1-Z58> Z59>Z60>Z141>F2642.
    I also made the Big-Y test from FTDNA.
    The person who shares the same final subclade with me is a men from France with surname Loiseau.

    These results are very uncommon among Turks.
    I've done some research that could eventually relate to it.

    Odo of Deuil (a French historian and participant of the Second Crusade 11471149) wrote in his book ("De profectione Ludovici VII in Orientem") about 3000 Frankish soldiers who converted to Islam.
    The location of this event is near our town so I suspect that these soldiers eventually founded our Village. There is also a medieval site in our village which locals describe as "Lords graveyard" but nobody really knows the history behind.

    "Chronicle of the Odo of Deuil"-Odo from Deuil

    De Profectione Ludovici VII. In Orientem
    The Journey of Louis VII to the East edited with an English translation
    Virginia GingerickBerry
    Pp. 141 and 143
    about 1147 in Addalia (now Antalya):
    "Then, taking their bows in the hand, the seasoned youths began to leap down from the wall, so that they might either protect their own lives or those of their comrades or sell their lives dearly; and by seeking peace thus forcibly they compelled the enemy to withdraw farther. They would have had peace; but the Greeks, by confining well and ailing people in the narrow and unclean place, killed them without inflicting a single wound. And while some starved because they had no money and desease waisted others, many died from the effect of the corpses left near at hand, with the Greeks not inflicting death but awaiting it for the Franks. For this reason two troops of three or four thousand strong men died in order to avoid dying, judging that living within the city was tantamount to dying without. After taking up their arms they went forth with the intention of crossing the two rivers, which were similarly situated, but unlike in size. The first they crossed easily, but at the second they halted before a double obstacle. For they could cross the stream only if they swam across, and they could penetrate the enmy drawn up there only if they fought through, but both they could not accomplish at the same time; and, turning back for this reason, they were routed and either captured or killed. By the blood of these soldiers, the Turk's thirst was quenched and the Greek's treachery was transformed into violence; for the Turks returned to see the survivors and then gave generous alms to the sick and the poor, but the Greeks forced the stronger Franks into their service and beat them by way of payment. Some Turks bought our coins from their allies and distributed them among the poor with a liberal hand; but the Greeks robbed those who had anything left. Therefore, avoiding the fellow-believers who were so cruel to them, the Franks went safely among the unbelievers, who had compassion on them; AND, WE HAVE HEARD, MORE THAN THREE THOUSAND YOUNG MEN WENT WITH THE TURKS WHEN THEY DEPARTED.
    O pity more cruel than any betrayal, since in giving bread they took away faith (although it is certain that the Turks, content with the service they gained, did not force anyone to deny his faith)! Now God, cursing the town of Adalia, smote its people so severely with sudden death that many houses were remained empty, and the living, stunned and fearful, planned to leave it altogether. The emperor, although opposed to God in judgment, also completely despoiled the city of silver and gold, because it had prepared a fleet and a market for the king. Thus, God and the held opposite opinions, but both punished the city.
    Now after the king had spent five weeks in this city he spent three more weeks suffering shipwreck on the way to Antioch, for some of his vessels were battered and damaged, but yet, by the will of God, not sunk. Serious were the losses and hazards which he endured, Father Sugar, but you ought to be comforted by the fact that he is safe. "

    I would like to know your thoughts about this topic.

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    In today Turkey there is also Gaulish DNA,
    is it possible to be from the ones the Greeks called Galates?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia
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    Yes, but both of those I subclades are Germanic in origin; L22 is Norse while Z58 is West Germanic. The L22 is probably Norman in origin, while the Z58 could come from anywhere in northeastern France.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    In today Turkey there is also Gaulish DNA,
    is it possible to be from the ones the Greeks called Galates?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia
    Yes, the Celts were knocking around the Balkans for about 75 years. One part of them invaded Asia Minor and settled in Galatia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    In today Turkey there is also Gaulish DNA,
    is it possible to be from the ones the Greeks called Galates?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia
    they would be R1b-U152

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Welcome to the forum, acoban07!

    I love this kind of genealogical detective work. ;)

    1) Regarding your haplogroup I1-L22>Z74>CTS2208>FGC12562>BY47171, if you check the Yfull tree, it looks like this branch is found almost exclusively in Sweden, Finland and a bit in North Germany. The Z74 branch is itself already very Nordic and not normally found among the French. Therefore, in my opinion, this lineage came to Turkey with the Swedish Vikings, not French crusaders. Another possibility is the Goths, but it would also show up in Ukraine, the Balkans and Italy and/or Spain. So I think we can exclude that hypothesis.

    2) Regarding the other branch
    (I1-Z58> Z59>Z60>Z141>F2642), it is found throughout Scandinavia, including Iceland, but also in England (Yorkshire), Scotland and Ireland and even Lithuania. That distribution looks also unmistakably Viking. There are just a few samples in Germany, and a single one in the Netherlands, Paris and Switzerland, which can be explained by occasional migrations in the last 1000 years. But 99% of samples are Nordic or in places settled by the Vikings.

    Varangian Vikings traded extensively with the Byzantine Empire and a Viking sword has been found in Patara near Antalya. It could very well have belonged to your ancestors.
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    Varangian Guards were employed by the Byzantine emperors and for their faithful service were given land grants in various places in the empire particularly in depopulated areas. So it is not unusual to find their progeny in various part of the empire. The Roman emperors also employed the same tactic to reward their legionnaires.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Hi Maciamo, thanks for welcoming!
    I'm just curious about my roots

    "The Z74 branch is itself already very Nordic and not normally found among the French"
    - I think you skipped this detail "The person who shares the same final subclade (FGC12562>BY47171) with me is a men from France with surname Loiseau." Just look at the I1 Y-DNA Project on FTDNA

    Also I-FGC12562 is a quite rare branch. Apart from me, it has been found in a few men with English paternal line and one man with French paternal line. I guess it's of Norman origin.

    I forgot to add the subclade F2642>F2735. That was the final subclade of my relative.
    According to FTDNA projects it has been found in 2 families from France and the Netherlands. The man from France is someone from the Marsille family.

    There is also a family group about this surname. I found this information:

    Ancestry of the Marcil/Marsil/Marsille family of Quebec, originally from Saint-Omer, Artois (now Pas-de-Calais, France), also Mons, Bailleul, Meteren, and other old Flemish cities. Name originally spelled Marsille. Various forms: Marcil, Marcille, Marsil, Marsille, Marsilles

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Yes, the Celts were knocking around the Balkans for about 75 years. One part of them invaded Asia Minor and settled in Galatia.
    yes...the celts took over the majority of illyria, then they tried to conquer greece and failed, so they went to Turkey and settled in Galatia

    other celts, went along the danube to the black sea conquering everyone

    All before the Romans arrived in the balkans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Yes, but both of those I subclades are Germanic in origin; L22 is Norse while Z58 is West Germanic. The L22 is probably Norman in origin, while the Z58 could come from anywhere in northeastern France.
    Yes, i think that my ancestor was of Norman origin. On FTDNA i have too many matches from Norman families.

    Gesendet von meinem LYA-L29 mit Tapatalk

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    Normans were also Viking origin,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans

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    Just remember that haplogroups only tell you a very small part of the story. They don't tell you about all the admixing that went on between then and now. Unless those Normans brought over their Norman wives and then proceeded to inbreed, your haplogroups don't really matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Just remember that haplogroups only tell you a very small part of the story. They don't tell you about all the admixing that went on between then and now. Unless those Normans brought over their Norman wives and then proceeded to inbreed, your haplogroups don't really matter.
    My Haplogroup won't change my ethnicity nor identity. It's unique for a Turk like me. I am more curious about the story behind. I find the story with the crusader interesting and I'm sure that we ( my relative and me) are not the only ones with an north European haplogroup in our village.

    Gesendet von meinem LYA-L29 mit Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by acoban07 View Post
    My Haplogroup won't change my ethnicity nor identity. It's unique for a Turk like me. I am more curious about the story behind. I find the story with the crusader interesting and I'm sure that we ( my relative and me) are not the only ones with an north European haplogroup in our village.

    Gesendet von meinem LYA-L29 mit Tapatalk
    some syrians, turks and kurds fought with the crusaders, there is a dna sample recently of a crusader dead but he was a syrian, dressed in crusader gear

    some reading
    https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(19)30111-9


    SI-38
    mtDNA: J1b4a1
    Y-DNA: E-L677

    SI-39
    mtDNA: H5'36
    Y-DNA: R-P312

    SI-40
    mtDNA: U5a1g
    Y-DNA: R-P311

    SI-41
    mtDNA: HV0a
    Y-DNA: R-DF27

    SI-42
    mtDNA: J1b1a1
    Y-DNA: T-M70

    SI-44
    mtDNA: HV1b
    Y-DNA: J-M304

    SI-45
    mtDNA: J1d1a1
    Y-DNA: Q-M346

    SI-47
    mtDNA: H2a5
    Y-DNA: R-M269

    SI-53
    mtDNA: T2
    Y-DNA: R-CTS300

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Thanks for sharing. Maybe they should also dig in our village for the remains of the soldiers from the second crusade. I can imagine that there are dozens of remains.

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