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Thread: Identifying the Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient Roman families through their descendants

  1. #51
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know if he belonged to that particular sub-lineage, but wasn't U.S. President Lyndon Johnson U-152?
    No, he was E-V13.
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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    There are also Johnson’s with that Haplogroup (R-CTS4528).

    Some came to the USA from Cornwall to Boston MA area in about 1626 AD :)
    There are hundreds of people who are R-CTS4528. What's your point? Why should Johnson be a Roman name?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There are hundreds of people who are R-CTS4528. What's your point? Why should Johnson be a Roman name?
    I never said that !

    The point is: if R-CTS4528 is Roman related, it was also in Cornwall in the 1600s.

    Despite the fact that LivingDNA doesn't believe there's much Roman genetic evidence in England.

    People can make of that information what they want, there are many Johnson’s out there.

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    Very interesting Maciamo. Regarding gens Licinia, there is an interesting tradition regarding the Moreno surname origin, Julio Atienza, a well known genealogist in Spain, stated that the Moreno's descends from Lucius Licinus Murena. The fact is that, at least one spanish Moreno on FTDNA is PF5456, a subclade of JL-70s.
    In my own case, my original surname was Martínez de la Jara (patronymic-toponymic surname), the patronymic, as you've said comes from Martinus, from latin god Mars, I belong to a subclade of PF5456. Regards

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I presented this before ............a paper which goes into detail about G2a-L497 clearly states it is a tyrolese and coastal northern romanian marker ............a very high % has this marker

    https://www.fsigenetics.com/article/...136-1/fulltext

    Clearly this marker entered Italy via Raetia e Vindelicia lands
    Perhaps it entered through there (especially G-L43), perhaps not. By the way, G-L497 predates well Rhaetians and Etruscans, as you know. Anyway, I do agree that it could be among them, in the case it's what you're suggesting. But if you want my opinion, this paper is 7 years old, and it looks outdated in some aspects.
    It provides a coalescent time of 13.900 years with standard error of 3.300 for East Tyrol!!
    I'm not sure, either, that those age estimations based on STR markers "necessarily" means per se that the clade did originate (or expanded from) there. The following comes from the (much more recent) paper "Prehistoric migrations through the Mediterranean basin shaped Corsican Y-chromosome diversity" (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0200641), just as an example: "Fifteen out of the 17 Corsican G2a2b2a1a1b-L497 displayed a unique Y-STR profile (S4 Table) with an estimated TMRCA of 6867 +/- 1294 years." Do we think that G-L497 arrived in Corsica abt. 7000 years ago? Likely not.
    I actually think this TMRCA based on STRs is not even accurate. I mean, if the results are correct and I checked them right, all these Corsican G-L497 men would have Y-GATA-H4=12, and sixteen out 17 would have DYS461=10, two results uncommon among G-L497 men. What a coincidence it would be. :) But no. It may actually evidence low diversity: the Corsican men involved would form together a branch not "that" old.

    Well, G-L497 does have a relatively high frequency around that part of Alps and surroundings, apparently, and Berger's map catched up that, as others - including Eupedia's. However, I'm affraid G-L497 highest SNP diversities would be somewhere else, and even the STR diversities suggested in the paper "Reconstructing the genetic history of Italians: new insights from a male (Y-chromosome) perspective" don't falsify this notion.
    Last edited by Regio X; 13-04-20 at 14:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Perhaps it entered through there (especially G-L43), perhaps not. By the way, G-L497 predates well Rhaetians and Etruscans, as you know. Anyway, I do agree that it could be among them, in the case it's what you're suggesting. But if you want my opinion, this paper is 7 years old, and it looks outdated in some aspects.
    It provides a coalescent time of 13.900 years with standard error of 3.300 for East Tyrol!!
    I'm not sure, either, that those age estimations based on STR markers "necessarily" means per se that the clade did originate (or expanded from) there. The following comes from the (much more recent) paper "Prehistoric migrations through the Mediterranean basin shaped Corsican Y-chromosome diversity" (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0200641), just as an example: "Fifteen out of the 17 Corsican G2a2b2a1a1b-L497 displayed a unique Y-STR profile (S4 Table) with an estimated TMRCA of 6867 +/- 1294 years." Do we think that G-L497 arrived in Corsica abt. 7000 years ago? Likely not.
    I actually think this TMRCA based on STRs is not even accurate. I mean, if the results are correct and I checked them right, all these Corsican G-L497 men would have Y-GATA-H4=12, and sixteen out 17 would have DYS461=10, two results uncommon among G-L497 men. What a coincidence it would be. :) But no. It may actually evidence low diversity: the Corsican men involved would form together a branch not "that" old.

    Well, G-L497 does have a relatively high frequency around that part of Alps and surroundings, apparently, and Berger's map catched up that, as others - including Eupedia's. However, I'm affraid G-L497 highest SNP diversities would be somewhere else, and even the STR diversities suggested in the paper "Reconstructing the genetic history of Italians: new insights from a male (Y-chromosome) perspective" don't falsify this notion.

    Excellent information. Thanks, Regio.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Perhaps it entered through there (especially G-L43), perhaps not. By the way, G-L497 predates well Rhaetians and Etruscans, as you know. Anyway, I do agree that it could be among them, in the case it's what you're suggesting. But if you want my opinion, this paper is 7 years old, and it looks outdated in some aspects.
    It provides a coalescent time of 13.900 years with standard error of 3.300 for East Tyrol!!
    I'm not sure, either, that those age estimations based on STR markers "necessarily" means per se that the clade did originate (or expanded from) there. The following comes from the (much more recent) paper "Prehistoric migrations through the Mediterranean basin shaped Corsican Y-chromosome diversity" (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0200641), just as an example: "Fifteen out of the 17 Corsican G2a2b2a1a1b-L497 displayed a unique Y-STR profile (S4 Table) with an estimated TMRCA of 6867 +/- 1294 years." Do we think that G-L497 arrived in Corsica abt. 7000 years ago? Likely not.
    I actually think this TMRCA based on STRs is not even accurate. I mean, if the results are correct and I checked them right, all these Corsican G-L497 men would have Y-GATA-H4=12, and sixteen out 17 would have DYS461=10, two results uncommon among G-L497 men. What a coincidence it would be. :) But no. It may actually evidence low diversity: the Corsican men involved would form together a branch not "that" old.
    Well, G-L497 does have a relatively high frequency around that part of Alps and surroundings, apparently, and Berger's map catched up that, as others - including Eupedia's. However, I'm affraid G-L497 highest SNP diversities would be somewhere else, and even the STR diversities suggested in the paper "Reconstructing the genetic history of Italians: new insights from a male (Y-chromosome) perspective" don't falsify this notion.

    Its highest diversities are in northern Romania/Moldova area
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4p
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Its highest diversities are in northern Romania/Moldova area
    There is some frequency in there, but I'm affraid the evidences are of low diversity in the East, actually. G-L42, for example, is the most frequent in Balkan as a whole, but most of them by far belong to G-Y128028. The major expansion would have happened from an area more to the West, probably not far from those where STR diversities supposedly peak. Where the MRCA lived may be another story, at least according to ancient DNA.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    There is some frequency in there, but I'm affraid the evidences are of low diversity in the East, actually. G-L42, for example, is the most frequent in Balkan as a whole, but most of them by far belong to G-Y128028. The major expansion would have happened from an area more to the West, probably not far from those where STR diversities supposedly peak. Where the MRCA lived may be another story, at least according to ancient DNA.


    The paper I presented, regardless that is is 7 yo , states that L497 is 78% of the G2a in the Tyrol-Austria/Italy

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    Roman emperors have a grave? Their Y DNA is detected in the graves?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kmak View Post
    Roman emperors have a grave? Their Y DNA is detected in the graves?
    No, they don't. It's impossible to know.

    Odds are, imo, they were R1b U-152 of some kind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's because J2a was not one of the original Indo-European haplogroup in the founding Italic population of the ancient Romans. J2a was presumably assimilated from neighbouring Etruscan and Greek populations. By the time the Romans conquered Gaul and Britain there would have been many J2a men among the Romans (be them legionaries, administrators or merchants).
    Maciamo, do you have plans to update your descriptions on J2 L70 based on this statement?

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    Quote Originally Posted by leperrine View Post
    Maciamo, do you have plans to update your descriptions on J2 L70 based on this statement?

    Studies of ancient DNA have increased in recent years, J2a has been found in the Neolithic samples in Italy, Austria, Hungary, Croatia, if I remember correctly.

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    Hi!
    I'm R-U152> Z193> FT8517
    I think my Y-Dna is related to the Romans who went to Portugal.
    Are there any genetic studies on the Romans in Portugal? Thanks !!


    Thanks

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    we must keep in mind that the Latin names were also given to the many orphans for example the surname Cicero clearly has this origin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No, they don't. It's impossible to know.

    Odds are, imo, they were R1b U-152 of some kind.

    Agree they could also so be some branches
    Of G and j2 though....

    P.s
    Most of the eastern roman emperors were likely mix of i2 and
    E-v13 as some of them can trace there paternal line to moesia
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Agree they could also so be some branches
    Of G and j2 though....
    P.s
    Most of the eastern roman emperors were likely mix of i2 and
    E-v13 as some of them can trace there paternal line to moesia
    You're right; I was thinking only of the early emperors, the ones from Italy and Italic colonies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    R1b-U152>Z56>Z145>CTS6389


    • Cecchinelli (surname found in Latium, Tuscany, Liguria and Lombardy) => possibly from Caecinus, an Etruscan gens. The Latin 'Cae' invariably becomes 'Ce' in Italian. The Latin 'ci' becomes 'chi' in Italian to keep the hard k sound. That gives the root 'Caecin' => 'Cecchin' + the '-elli' ending.



    Cecchinelli is from Cecchinello diminutive of Cecco, from Francesco. There are many variants of this surname in Italy, Cecchi, Cecchini, Ceccuzzi, Ceccarelli and so on.

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    A little bit curious about the DF90 ancient latin sample(800-500BC),seems that German Roman Empire Kaiser House of Habsburg is under DF90 too. Does this branch actually origin from latin roman, or german or celts?From the existing samples,seems have lower possibility from Sweden or north Germany (local celts most probably).U152 is harder to identify than R1b-Z2118,R1b-Z2118 has strong link with latin roman,maybe the real Latin language contributor.
    Last edited by Mario; 19-02-21 at 04:46.

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario View Post
    A little bit curious about the DF90 ancient latin sample(800-500BC),seems that German Roman Empire Kaiser House of Habsburg is under DF90 too. Does this branch actually origin from latin roman, or german or celts?From the existing samples,seems have lower possibility from Sweden or north Germany (local celts most probably).U152 is harder to identify than R1b-Z2118,R1b-Z2118 has strong link with latin roman,maybe the real Latin language contributor.
    I was wondering the same thing. Considering that the Romans did station lots of legions for 400 years along the border with Germania and that northern Switzerland where the Habsburg originated is in that area, I think that the Habsburg Y-DNA line may well be of Roman/Italian origin.

    In addition to being found in Italy, France, Switzerland, southern Germany and England (locations which could be either Celtic or Italic/Roman origin), R1b-U152>L2>DF90 is also found in Algeria and Turkey, two locations that rather point at a Roman dispersal. Anyway it was found in Iron Age Latium, so that is uncontrovertible evidence that it was Roman. The question is whether is was also Celtic, or only Roman/Italic.

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    Uh, just so we're on the right page here, the modern Habsburg line is not descended in male line from the Swiss founder. Starting with Joseph II, the modern male-line Habsburg lineage is that of the French House of Lorraine, as Joseph's father was Francis Stephen, Duke of Lorraine. The earliest recorded ancestor of that line was Gerard of Metz, with an origin in northeastern France.

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Uh, just so we're on the right page here, the modern Habsburg line is not descended in male line from the Swiss founder. Starting with Joseph II, the modern male-line Habsburg lineage is that of the French House of Lorraine, as Joseph's father was Francis Stephen, Duke of Lorraine. The earliest recorded ancestor of that line was Gerard of Metz, with an origin in northeastern France.
    That's right, but it is the original Habsburg line that is R1b-L2>DF90, not the Lorraine line. According to this page, two living members of the Habsburg-Lorraine line tested their Y-DNA, but one was G2a and the other J2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's right, but it is the original Habsburg line that is R1b-L2>DF90, not the Lorraine line. According to this page, two living members of the Habsburg-Lorraine line tested their Y-DNA, but one was G2a and the other J2.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...DNA-haplogroup

    ''The only member of the Habsburg Project related to the Habsburg-Lorraine is also the only one with a slightly different haplotype, though he also belongs to R1b-U152. That, on the other hand, would be highly unlikely for the Carolingians if they were indeed of patrilineal Germanic descent. It is not impossible though. The first documented Carolingian was Pepin of Landen, born in 580, many centuries after the Franks settled in modern Belgium. It cannot be ruled out that Pepin was paternally descended from an assimilated Gallo-Roman rather than a German.''

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmak View Post
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...DNA-haplogroup

    ''The only member of the Habsburg Project related to the Habsburg-Lorraine is also the only one with a slightly different haplotype, though he also belongs to R1b-U152. That, on the other hand, would be highly unlikely for the Carolingians if they were indeed of patrilineal Germanic descent. It is not impossible though. The first documented Carolingian was Pepin of Landen, born in 580, many centuries after the Franks settled in modern Belgium. It cannot be ruled out that Pepin was paternally descended from an assimilated Gallo-Roman rather than a German.''

    IIRC he was a Salian-Frank and they fall into ydna R-U106, L48, Z8, Z1+

    Maybe the Ottonian-Franks where different ................https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottonian_dynasty



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