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Thread: Identifying the Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient Roman families through their descendants

  1. #51
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know if he belonged to that particular sub-lineage, but wasn't U.S. President Lyndon Johnson U-152?
    No, he was E-V13.
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  2. #52
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    There are also Johnson’s with that Haplogroup (R-CTS4528).

    Some came to the USA from Cornwall to Boston MA area in about 1626 AD :)
    There are hundreds of people who are R-CTS4528. What's your point? Why should Johnson be a Roman name?

  3. #53
    Regular Member Salento's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There are hundreds of people who are R-CTS4528. What's your point? Why should Johnson be a Roman name?
    I never said that !

    The point is: if R-CTS4528 is Roman related, it was also in Cornwall in the 1600s.

    Despite the fact that LivingDNA doesn't believe there's much Roman genetic evidence in England.

    People can make of that information what they want, there are many Johnson’s out there.

  4. #54
    Regular Member Juan.delajara's Avatar
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    Very interesting Maciamo. Regarding gens Licinia, there is an interesting tradition regarding the Moreno surname origin, Julio Atienza, a well known genealogist in Spain, stated that the Moreno's descends from Lucius Licinus Murena. The fact is that, at least one spanish Moreno on FTDNA is PF5456, a subclade of JL-70s.
    In my own case, my original surname was Martínez de la Jara (patronymic-toponymic surname), the patronymic, as you've said comes from Martinus, from latin god Mars, I belong to a subclade of PF5456. Regards

  5. #55
    Regular Member Regio X's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I presented this before ............a paper which goes into detail about G2a-L497 clearly states it is a tyrolese and coastal northern romanian marker ............a very high % has this marker

    https://www.fsigenetics.com/article/...136-1/fulltext

    Clearly this marker entered Italy via Raetia e Vindelicia lands
    Perhaps it entered through there (especially G-L43), perhaps not. By the way, G-L497 predates well Rhaetians and Etruscans, as you know. Anyway, I do agree that it could be among them, in the case it's what you're suggesting. But if you want my opinion, this paper is 7 years old, and it looks outdated in some aspects.
    It provides a coalescent time of 13.900 years with standard error of 3.300 for East Tyrol!!
    I'm not sure, either, that those age estimations based on STR markers "necessarily" means per se that the clade did originate (or expanded from) there. The following comes from the (much more recent) paper "Prehistoric migrations through the Mediterranean basin shaped Corsican Y-chromosome diversity" (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0200641), just as an example: "Fifteen out of the 17 Corsican G2a2b2a1a1b-L497 displayed a unique Y-STR profile (S4 Table) with an estimated TMRCA of 6867 +/- 1294 years." Do we think that G-L497 arrived in Corsica abt. 7000 years ago? Likely not.
    I actually think this TMRCA based on STRs is not even accurate. I mean, if the results are correct and I checked them right, all these Corsican G-L497 men would have Y-GATA-H4=12, and sixteen out 17 would have DYS461=10, two results uncommon among G-L497 men. What a coincidence it would be. :) But no. It may actually evidence low diversity: the Corsican men involved would form together a branch not "that" old.

    Well, G-L497 does have a relatively high frequency around that part of Alps and surroundings, apparently, and Berger's map catched up that, as others - including Eupedia's. However, I'm affraid G-L497 highest SNP diversities would be somewhere else, and even the STR diversities suggested in the paper "Reconstructing the genetic history of Italians: new insights from a male (Y-chromosome) perspective" don't falsify this notion.
    Last edited by Regio X; 13-04-20 at 14:48.

  6. #56
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Perhaps it entered through there (especially G-L43), perhaps not. By the way, G-L497 predates well Rhaetians and Etruscans, as you know. Anyway, I do agree that it could be among them, in the case it's what you're suggesting. But if you want my opinion, this paper is 7 years old, and it looks outdated in some aspects.
    It provides a coalescent time of 13.900 years with standard error of 3.300 for East Tyrol!!
    I'm not sure, either, that those age estimations based on STR markers "necessarily" means per se that the clade did originate (or expanded from) there. The following comes from the (much more recent) paper "Prehistoric migrations through the Mediterranean basin shaped Corsican Y-chromosome diversity" (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0200641), just as an example: "Fifteen out of the 17 Corsican G2a2b2a1a1b-L497 displayed a unique Y-STR profile (S4 Table) with an estimated TMRCA of 6867 +/- 1294 years." Do we think that G-L497 arrived in Corsica abt. 7000 years ago? Likely not.
    I actually think this TMRCA based on STRs is not even accurate. I mean, if the results are correct and I checked them right, all these Corsican G-L497 men would have Y-GATA-H4=12, and sixteen out 17 would have DYS461=10, two results uncommon among G-L497 men. What a coincidence it would be. :) But no. It may actually evidence low diversity: the Corsican men involved would form together a branch not "that" old.

    Well, G-L497 does have a relatively high frequency around that part of Alps and surroundings, apparently, and Berger's map catched up that, as others - including Eupedia's. However, I'm affraid G-L497 highest SNP diversities would be somewhere else, and even the STR diversities suggested in the paper "Reconstructing the genetic history of Italians: new insights from a male (Y-chromosome) perspective" don't falsify this notion.

    Excellent information. Thanks, Regio.


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  7. #57
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Perhaps it entered through there (especially G-L43), perhaps not. By the way, G-L497 predates well Rhaetians and Etruscans, as you know. Anyway, I do agree that it could be among them, in the case it's what you're suggesting. But if you want my opinion, this paper is 7 years old, and it looks outdated in some aspects.
    It provides a coalescent time of 13.900 years with standard error of 3.300 for East Tyrol!!
    I'm not sure, either, that those age estimations based on STR markers "necessarily" means per se that the clade did originate (or expanded from) there. The following comes from the (much more recent) paper "Prehistoric migrations through the Mediterranean basin shaped Corsican Y-chromosome diversity" (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0200641), just as an example: "Fifteen out of the 17 Corsican G2a2b2a1a1b-L497 displayed a unique Y-STR profile (S4 Table) with an estimated TMRCA of 6867 +/- 1294 years." Do we think that G-L497 arrived in Corsica abt. 7000 years ago? Likely not.
    I actually think this TMRCA based on STRs is not even accurate. I mean, if the results are correct and I checked them right, all these Corsican G-L497 men would have Y-GATA-H4=12, and sixteen out 17 would have DYS461=10, two results uncommon among G-L497 men. What a coincidence it would be. :) But no. It may actually evidence low diversity: the Corsican men involved would form together a branch not "that" old.
    Well, G-L497 does have a relatively high frequency around that part of Alps and surroundings, apparently, and Berger's map catched up that, as others - including Eupedia's. However, I'm affraid G-L497 highest SNP diversities would be somewhere else, and even the STR diversities suggested in the paper "Reconstructing the genetic history of Italians: new insights from a male (Y-chromosome) perspective" don't falsify this notion.

    Its highest diversities are in northern Romania/Moldova area
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4o
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

  8. #58
    Regular Member Regio X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Its highest diversities are in northern Romania/Moldova area
    There is some frequency in there, but I'm affraid the evidences are of low diversity in the East, actually. G-L42, for example, is the most frequent in Balkan as a whole, but most of them by far belong to G-Y128028. The major expansion would have happened from an area more to the West, probably not far from those where STR diversities supposedly peak. Where the MRCA lived may be another story, at least according to ancient DNA.


  9. #59
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    There is some frequency in there, but I'm affraid the evidences are of low diversity in the East, actually. G-L42, for example, is the most frequent in Balkan as a whole, but most of them by far belong to G-Y128028. The major expansion would have happened from an area more to the West, probably not far from those where STR diversities supposedly peak. Where the MRCA lived may be another story, at least according to ancient DNA.


    The paper I presented, regardless that is is 7 yo , states that L497 is 78% of the G2a in the Tyrol-Austria/Italy

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    Roman emperors have a grave? Their Y DNA is detected in the graves?

  11. #61
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmak View Post
    Roman emperors have a grave? Their Y DNA is detected in the graves?
    No, they don't. It's impossible to know.

    Odds are, imo, they were R1b U-152 of some kind.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's because J2a was not one of the original Indo-European haplogroup in the founding Italic population of the ancient Romans. J2a was presumably assimilated from neighbouring Etruscan and Greek populations. By the time the Romans conquered Gaul and Britain there would have been many J2a men among the Romans (be them legionaries, administrators or merchants).
    Maciamo, do you have plans to update your descriptions on J2 L70 based on this statement?

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    Quote Originally Posted by leperrine View Post
    Maciamo, do you have plans to update your descriptions on J2 L70 based on this statement?

    Studies of ancient DNA have increased in recent years, J2a has been found in the Neolithic samples in Italy, Austria, Hungary, Croatia, if I remember correctly.

  14. #64
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    Hi!
    I'm R-U152> Z193> FT8517
    I think my Y-Dna is related to the Romans who went to Portugal.
    Are there any genetic studies on the Romans in Portugal? Thanks !!


    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    ...
    • Cecchinelli (surname found in Latium, Tuscany, Liguria and Lombardy) => possibly from Caecina, an Etruscan gens. The Latin 'Cae' invariably becomes 'Ce' in Italian. The Latin 'ci' becomes 'chi' in Italian to keep the hard k sound. That gives the root 'Caecin' => 'Cecchin' + the '-elli' ending.

    ...
    I think these may have common origins with the name Ciochina used in Romania. Ciochina is even closer to Caecina than Ciocchinelli.

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