Arbereshe(pre 1500 Albanians) Y-DNA Vs (post 1500)Albanian Y-DNA. Big Differences!

I don't know how accurate this anthropogenic map of the "Dinaric" type is, but it seems to correlate with the IndoEuropean.eu map of EV13. Probably a coincidence and incorrect data, but if correct, maybe EV13 and Dinaricism are connected?

If any Albanian Y-DNA is connected with "Dinaric" type it must be J-L283. German BB's were predominately Dinaric. Though their type should not be confused with the various subsequent "Dinarics".

Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 3.4715% / 3.47149623
61.2 I3589_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp
38.8 I3948_Croatia_Cardial_N_7860_ybp

Cetina (likely E-V13) people were not "Dinaric". They weren't EEF Gracile Meds either.
 
Y-SNP analysis of I4331, J2b2a-L283, Bronze Age Croatia – Mathieson et al. 2018



December 2019 update

Due to higher resolution NGS tests, it was recently discovered that SNP FT92472 is equivalent to J-Z38240. I4331 has no reads for Z38240, but is positive for FT92472. Therefore he can further be assigned to: J-Y15058>FT92472(xZ38241,BY48225) or at YFull’s J-Z38240 level.


Quite interesting.

No Albanians in this subclade thus far as I can see in their project but there are Bulgarians, Greek Vlachs and Serbs. Possibly mediated by the Balkan Latinophone people in the Slavic countries of the Balkans.
Also, one of the Etruscans in the resent study about Rome in regards of the IA populations in Italy was found to belong to J-CTS6190 which is downstream of Z38240.

This might give some insight of the origins of the Vlach people and their complex history. I've heard many theories trying to assign the Vlachs of Thracian extract but giving the complex history of the region and the Balkan Latinophone people it seems that Thracian origin only is quite doubtful.

A mix of different tribes and people is the most probable answer.
 
JLC62cm.jpg



https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...lyrian)/page19?p=594593&viewfull=1#post594593


ROFL The Scythians :LOL: :LOL:


that is why Albanians have one PIE strange aspiration simmilar with Persians?



Again Thank you guys
 
I read through this thread and I can not seem to understand the implication or motive of this post? Is it just me?
Does the thread starter mean to say that Arbereshe living and mixing in Italy for 500 years are more representative of what Albanian means than modern Albanians?

Is the author of this thread trying to say J2B2 L283 are not true Albanians or what?
For example my Y-DNA is terminal for Y21878... TMRCA 3600 before present. Also the age and diversity of mutations for L283 is astounding. So how exactly is L283 a result of Ottoman invasion? When it is inexistant in Anatolia?

pjeduwl.jpg
L7UbJ0b.jpg
HFbnfqd.jpg
 
The animosity of Greeks toward Albanians date back in Christian times. Albanians were mostly Catholic and were more tied to Roman Catholic Church. Greek dynasties started to Hellenize the Byzantine Empire after the Justinian Plague when the Macedonian dynasty took over. Prior to that, Byzantine Empire was dominated by Thracian and Illyrian dynasties.

And obviously, no. There were never any Gheg contact with Greeks during Middle Ages/Ottoman times. the thread opener is making things out of his ass.
 
ROFL The Scythians :LOL: :LOL:


that is why Albanians have one PIE strange aspiration simmilar with Persians?



Again Thank you guys


Who ever mentioned Scythians and why are you laughing entire time while i fail to see what is laughable here except that most of you Greeks have broken English and therefore its hard to understand you... Schythians and Persians in Iran in time of 9700 BCE ?


You yourself also have a Caucasus haplogroup and pretty much have similar history with J2a which also spread from Caucasus and Turkey to Greece..
 
The animosity of Greeks toward Albanians date back in Christian times. Albanians were mostly Catholic and were more tied to Roman Catholic Church. Greek dynasties started to Hellenize the Byzantine Empire after the Justinian Plague when the Macedonian dynasty took over. Prior to that, Byzantine Empire was dominated by Thracian and Illyrian dynasties.

And obviously, no. There were never any Gheg contact with Greeks during Middle Ages/Ottoman times. the thread opener is making things out of his ass.



:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
 
If you take the samples from Laberia and compare to arberesh, data is similar.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
I don't know what's so funny about the truth:
https://i.imgur.com/akjNcSv.jpg
What is most interesting is that the defter of 1583, the vast majority of the recorded anthroponyms are typical Albanian names or Albanian variants of names that ultimately have Greek, Slavic or Latin etymologies. Clearly suggesting that there area had a predominately Albanian-speaking population http://arberiaonline.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=168. Interestingly, it was a similar case for the region of Dropull, which in the defter of 1520 also had primarily Albanian anthroponyms.

Himara itself:
1.Lirbo? Mujo - 2. Todor Kudhes? - 3. Gjoka Boga - 4. Andrea Musica - 5. Balsh Dhima - 6. Komin Voja, Doja? - 7. Gjoka Dhamo - 8. Petri Gjoni - 9. Todor Brati, Perlin? - 10. Mitri… - 11. Mark Gjoni - 12. Gjika Gjoni - 13. Todor Lumadhi - 14. Dhimo Papa - 15. Kondi Petri - 16. - Andon Ajas - 17. Todor Kondavik? - 18. Meksi Palloshi - 19. Gjon Palloshi - 20 - Dede Kola - 21. Dhuman Gjipali, Gjikalli? - 22. Nikola Gjin Miri? 23. Gjek Leka - 24. - Gjoka Nika - 25. Mark Suvari? - 26. Gjon Palloshi - 27. Kondi Camije? - 28. - Petri Gjini - 29. Petri Petri - 30. Todor Gjinok? - 31. Pteri Gjoni - 32. Gjik Llanka - 33. - Gjin Gjon Aleksi - 34. - Mihran? Levendari? - 35. Kond Martini - 36. Dembllar? Dimitrie - 37. Nike Martini - 38. Gjok Alemdari - 39. Gjok Dhim Gjini - 40. Dole Mandashi - 41. Martin Zylkader? - 42. Kondaramo Muka - 43. Si i pari - 44. Aleks Peci - 45. Gjini Gjorzaj - 46. Gjika Llazari - 47 Dhimo Tanushi - 48. Pali Dhjako - 49. Martin Tanushi, Janushi? - 50 Gjika Mehilli - 51. Emeklu? Dhjako - 52. Gjon Pavllari Mehilli - 53. Dhimo Gjon Vllasi - 54. Petri Dhima - 55. Dhima Emelkuri? - 56. Thanas Jorgonllu? - 57. Nika Kallandori - 58. Aleks Menko, Nenko? - 59. Dhimo Dermali - 60. Leka Dermali - 61. Kuka Leondari - 62. Selka Ulmi, Almi? - 63 Todor Gjini - 64. Gjok Gjini - 65. Simon Nika - 66. Dhimo Mamija? - 67. Meks Mamija - 68. gjon Leondari - 69. Kond Andredo? - 70 Gjin Todori - 71. Pal Melani - 72. Meks Mitrije - 73. Andrea Gjomija? - 74. Pali Panajoti - 75. Kont Lela, Della? - 76. Gjurka Kondi - 77. Gjika Dhima - 78. Dhima Gjon Meshi - 79. Nika Dhima - 80. Kont Gjoni - 81. Dhima Mihallo? Limarho? - 82. Andrea Zota, Voja? - 83. Dhima Nika - 84. Papa Thanasi - 85. Todor Nika - 86. Kond Todori - 87. Gjoka Jorgo - 88. Papa Aleksi - 89. Andrea Petri - 90. Leondar Meksi - 91. Todor Meksi - 92. Nika Plaku - 93. Gjon Menika, Mnika? - 94. Gjin Meksi - 95. Meks Mnika, Menika? - 96. Gjok Pali - 97. Kond Papa - 98. Dhimo Papa - 99. Muji… - 100. Gjin Pali - 101. Todor Gjin Gjoni - 102. Dhimo Gjin Dhima - 103. Nika Leka - 104. Dhimo Andrea - 105. Andrea Menkuli - 106. Gjok Menkuli - 107. Bardho? Ali Kopalli? - 108. Gjin Jorga - 109. Gjok Gjin Pjetri - 110. Nikolla Gjoni - 111. Kont Premti - 112. Papa Nikolla - 113. Kont Gjoni - 114. Nika Gjin 115. … Zoto - 116. Gjok Jorgo - 117. Dhimo Pelikani - 118. Menkul Gjoni - 119. Kont Panomllu - 120. Andrea Jorgo - 121. Kond Andrea - 122. Petri … - 123. Todor Mirdemko - 124. Dhimo Andrea - 125. Todor … - 126. Aleksi Papa - 127. Zot Gjoni - 128. Niko Mirini? - 129. Dhimo Kondi - 130. … Bardhi - 131. Dhimo Leka - 132. Gjoka Dhimo - 133. Lika Kondi - 134. Petri Todori - 135. Jorgo Andrea - 136……. - 137. Martin Gjini
Gjithsej 137 shtepi: hane (me kryefamiljare) 130, me myxhered (me jetime) 7. Tatimet nga fshati Himare: Ispenxhe - 3425 akce, Hinta (drithe) - 2250 akce, Musht (Shaire) - 6000 akce, E dhejta e ullinjve - 1600 akce, e dhjeta benakut - 600 akce, resm-i bostan - 260 akce, badihava - 13 akce.

Dhermi:
1.Leka Gjini - 2. Petri Dhima - 3. Andrea Caco Caco? - 4. Zot Dhimo - 5. Kristo Dhimo - 6. Manush Adeti - 7. Gjin Gjoni - 8. Gjin Kondi - 9. Kondi Zoto - 10. Leka Gjini - 11. Gjin Mavllari? - 12. Kondi Streli - 13. Papa Jorgi - 14. Vojo Jak - 15. Vojo Kondi - 16. Todor Stimaqi? - 17. Todor Mehilli - 18. Dhimo Kondi - 19. Vaso Damo - 20 Llazar Petro - 21… Kondi - 22. Gjin Piro? Poro? - 23. Kondi Dhima - 24. Gjika Todor - 25. Leka todor - 26. Gjin Dhima - 27. Zot Todori - 28. Gjin Ruqi? Zhuqi? - 29. Pal Nika - 30. Gjoka Qezari - 31. Gjin Dhima - 32. Nikoll Kosta - 33. Todor Kosta - 34. Gjika Pano - 35. Leondar Pali - 36. Gjon Panoja - 37. Kristok Pano - 38. Andorce Pano - 39. … Deda - 40. Gjin Demi? Remi? - 41. Leka Nika - 42. Todor Andrea - 43. Papa Patro - 44. Kondi Merkuri - 45. Brumo Madhima? - 46. Kondi Bukali? Bucali? Mucali - 47. Gjin Bucali? Bukali, Mucali? - 48. Dhimo Dhamo - 49. Todor Pali - 50. Nikolla Livrani? Lehrani?
Gjithsej 53 shtepi: hane (me kryefamiljare) 50, me myxhered (me jetime) 3. Tatimet nga fshati Dhermi: ispenxha 1325 akce, hinta (drithe) 900 akce, shair (theker) 290 akce, e dhjeta e mushtit 840 akce, e dhjeta e alef 28 akce, e dhjeta e ullinjve 23 akce, resm-i bennak 250 akce, resm-i bostan 100 akce, badihava 1138 akce, shuma 4999 akce.

Palase:
1.Papa Nikolla - 2. Dhimo Jorgo, Bojko? - 3. Gjin Gjoni - 4. Dhimo Nasto - 5. Pali Lihori? - 6. Meks Sinani - 7. Nika Thanasi - 8. Papa Meksi - 9. Miro Petro Kasto? Marito? 10. andrea Stavro - 11. Gjon Lehamo? - 12. Aleks Paskali - 13. Lehamo? Dhimo - 14. Dhrako? Kola - 15. Dhimo Jari? Pari, Nari? 16. Pal Lehkani? - 17. Qezar Nikolla - 18. Kostri… 19. Qirjako Paskali - 20. Nika … 21. Kond Panuci - 22. Dhimo Pobrat - 23. Leka Kosta - 24. Zot Demka - 25. Dhimo Jorgji - 26. Dhimo Kondi - 27. Jorgo Pali - 28. Nika Pali - 29. Jorgo Medrosi? Drosi? - 30. Paskal Dhimaqi - 31. Dhimo Petro - 32. Lika … 33. Nika Marko - 34. Dhamo Marko - 35. Andrea Qezari - 36. Todor Lohomo? - 37. Gjon Lohomo? 38. Gjon Gjirace - 39. Gjika Gjirace - 40. dhimo Musuni? - 41. Gjon Mihali - 42. Dhimo Mastro? - 43. Dhimo Nikolla - 44. Kosta Kondi - 45. Dhimo Mihali - 46. Niko Dhimo - 47. Thanas Lehamo? 48. Todor Zagori - 49. Gjon shiko 42 - 50. Gjik Todori - 51. Andrea Komnini - 52. Jorgji Komnini - 53. Dhimo shiko 42 - 54. Todor Bojko - 55. Kondi Kosta Nasto - 56. Nika Lindo - 57. Nika Marini - 58… Kodheli - 59. Dhimo Sinani - 60. Gjin Sallaja - 61. Deliro …62. Dhimo Muja - 63. Andrea Andoni - 64. Pali Papa - 65. Dhimo Paskali - 66. Dhimo Bojko - 67. Andrea Dumani - 68. Dhimo Pali? Jani? - 69. Jorgo Kristuli - 70. Pali Paskali - 71. Pali Dhimo - 72. … Bero? - 73. Mano si 72 - 74. Miho Thanasi - 75. Andrea Lihamoqi? - 76. Lika Gjuhamoli? - 77. Jorgji Memlima? - 78. Gjoka … - 79. Menko Paskali - 80. Gjoka Pali? Jani? - 81. Todor Dhimo - 82. Konti Dhimo - 83. andrea Vasili - 84. Vaso Dhimja - 85. Kosta Nenko? Petko? - 86. Qiro Nikolla - 87. Apostol Petro - 88. Petko Mihali - 89. Deliro Mihali - 90. Qezar Damiani - 91. Jorgji … - 92. Dhimo Vasili - 93. Petko Sima - 94. Petko …95. Vaso Petko
Tatimet nga fshati Palase: ispenxhe 1250 akce, hinta (drithe) 1350 akce, e dhjeta e shairit 580 akce, e dhjeta e mushtit 360 akce, resm-i bennak 400 akce, resm-i bostan 1600 akce, resma i kovan (blet) 200 akce, e dhjeta e ullinjve 400 akce, e dhjeta e Pallamudhit 65 akce, badihava 861 akce, shuma 6629 akce.
 
Who ever mentioned Scythians and why are you laughing entire time while i fail to see what is laughable here except that most of you Greeks have broken English and therefore its hard to understand you... Schythians and Persians in Iran in time of 9700 BCE ?


You yourself also have a Caucasus haplogroup and pretty much have similar history with J2a which also spread from Caucasus and Turkey to Greece..

Scythians and Persians are both central Asian people ...................the Persians left central Asia ( Uzbekistan areas ) circa 1000BC and went to modern Iran ..............so he means they are similar race due to area of origin .................unsure how much this counts though
 
Scythians and Persians are both central Asian people ...................the Persians left central Asia ( Uzbekistan areas ) circa 1000BC and went to modern Iran ..............so he means they are similar race due to area of origin .................unsure how much this counts though

we can realize a lot

attachment.php
 
we can realize a lot

attachment.php
Would you care to elaborate?

If it's the presence of J2b-L283 in the Volga region of Russia (Mordovia, Tatarstan etc) you're talking about, It's best that you know that this means nothing whatsoever in relation to the presence of L283 in Albanians. The vast majority of the L283 from this region of Russia comes under Y12000 which has a relatively recent TMRCA suggesting an expansion during the early Medieval. Y12000 is a downstream of Z631 which ultimately suggests that this branch arrived to the Volga district from the west. Nothing to do with Scythians or any Iranic group.
 
Would you care to elaborate?

If it's the presence of J2b-L283 in the Volga region of Russia (Mordovia, Tatarstan etc) you're talking about, It's best that you know that this means nothing whatsoever in relation to the presence of L283 in Albanians. The vast majority of the L283 from this region of Russia comes under Y12000 which has a relatively recent TMRCA suggesting an expansion during the early Medieval. Y12000 is a downstream of Z631 which ultimately suggests that this branch arrived to the Volga district from the west. Nothing to do with Scythians or any Iranic group.

JLC62cm.jpg


attachment.php




who draw the first map?
and can give dates? not only subclades?
 
JLC62cm.jpg


attachment.php




who draw the first map?
and can give dates? not only subclades?
Dema drew that map if I recall correctly, however he clearly was suggesting an expansion during the Bronze Age with early Indo-European-speaking populations from the steppe. Not the Scythians or other Iranic groups.

You know that you can look the dates up, right? J2b-Y12000 has a TMRCA of ~1,200ybp which places the common ancestor during the early 9th Century AD. Then if you look at where every other Z631 downstream is distributed, you would realise that Y12000 has an origin to the west and expanded east only during the Medieval.
 
Dema drew that map if I recall correctly, however he clearly was suggesting an expansion during the Bronze Age with early Indo-European-speaking populations from the steppe. Not the Scythians or other Iranic groups.

You know that you can look the dates up, right? J2b-Y12000 has a TMRCA of ~1,200ybp which places the common ancestor during the early 9th Century AD. Then if you look at where every other Z631 downstream is distributed, you would realise that Y12000 has an origin to the west and expanded east only during the Medieval.

and Z361? what was it? a cucumber seed that drop from god to ground and spring?
I don't know if the map is correct, but no problem.
I think it is East of Caspian, I repeat I think,.or maybe via minor Asia etc etc

so the xistance of J2b at Dalmatia means that was present in Area.
but how it get there? from where it came etc is another discuss,
And what left behind on his way to Dalmatia is a bigger discuss.

cause if consider Z361 as primary, and from West to East,
seems rather that is a sea transfered, from dry continental areas, to Dalmatian shores.
 
Hey there Yetos, long time no see, hope you are doing well. The point of my post was that J2B2-L283 has been in Albania and probably Greece most likely for as long as 3600 years, this assumption I base on the diversity and age of the mutations for J2B2-L283 as well as J-Z638.

zwLPqeq.jpg

g15dMh8.jpg

As you can see the branching for L283 starts off over 5300 years ago, with one branch being confirmed in the Balkans 3600 years ago.
Furthermore just in modern Albanians we have a huge diversity of branches such as: Z638 TMRCA 4300 years with subranches Z631 2900 TMRCA, Y21878 TMRCA 3600 Years, Y23094 TMRCA 3600 Years, Y161916 TMRCA 3300 years, and much more subranches with lower TMRCA. This hints at an early branching of of mutations in the Balkans.

Take for example my terminal YDNA, Y21878 TMRCA 3600 years:


1XdP0R0.jpg

The only terminal Y21878 is Albanian as you can see from YFULL.

Futhermore I posted the other pictures to prove to you that L283 is quite represented in Greece, despite what the thread starter seemed to imply. I am not sure why your eyes went straight to Russia, when it is obvious that Greece, especially Epirus and Peloponnese are lit green (or red depending which one you pay attention to).

Dvi65SW.jpg8VNPmBY.jpg

So, key takeaways.

L283 is quite represented in Greece, especially Epirus, Peloponnese and Athens.
L283, Z638 has huge diversity and great age in the Albania, over 3000 years.
L283 is inexistant in Anatolia.

So again how can the thread starter pretend L283 is a result of the Ottoman Invasion, and is not a "real Albanian" haplogroup?

I hope you understand where I am coming with this post.
Best regards, Archetype0ne.
 
J2b is present 3700 years now in Dalmatia,
it even might be more older some centuries.
or just a decade of chronology estimation.

the Balkans show a strange boom, on West Balkans, of J2b that is not connected with other J2b areas,
so ....


the % on a population means something, but also means notthing
only the plaques in Balkans, also religions, priviledges, wars etc change the % very very much,
today is x% tomorow maybe y% and 3 generations after is big Z%

Yet J2b is connected higly with modern West Balkanic populations,
and it is very normal to connect it with Albanians, since was present at the Unification of ALbanians

It is like J2a in Minoans-Myceneans,
Many J2a are considered Greek or Helladic Area origin, but not all J2a are Greeks,

And I ask you,
How sure you are, that the J2b found in Dalmatia wasn't part of GregoBrygians when descent from Vucedol-Vucocar to Ohrid,
offcourse it may also has nothing to do with above, it can be related 100% or absolut 0%
or it was a wave of early Scythians that reach Adriatic?
or it came from Anatolia, or Phoenicia, or early pre-Minoan Crete or Cyprus, through the sea.
if remember correct an ancient geographer names Ulcini as a colony of Colhians today Lazistan-Georgia,

before 3700 its max numbers and % could be in Danube, or at East Balkans, etc
even before black death, Justinian plague etc,

Epilogos
The truth is that J2b was present in the Albanian ethogenesis,
and a part of it is connected with Albanian diaspora.
But also prexisted the Albanian ethnogenesis and diaspora, elsewhere.
 
Scythians and Persians are both central Asian people ...................the Persians left central Asia ( Uzbekistan areas ) circa 1000BC and went to modern Iran ..............so he means they are similar race due to area of origin .................unsure how much this counts though


This is funny if he really thinks that. I think the guy is obvious troll. J2b-L283 was in West Iran or rather to say in Zagros mountains probably in time of 9600 ybp (late hunter-gatherers or first farmers). And expanded from Zagros to north Caucasus in time of 5700 ybp.

So there was really no Iranians neither Persians in time when J2b-L283 already left Zagros and spread to northern Black Sea shores where it was eventually picked up by R1b Indo-Europeans from Yamnaya culture and eventually spread to Europe with IE.

Also as a nail to the coffin goes fact that in Iran there is not even 1 % of J2b. And in India brother clade of European J2b2 is found but its more concentrated in south at Dravidians who are supposed to be more native to the territories, unlike more recent arriving Indo-Aryans.

Therefore J2b2 has nothing to do with Iranians, but i can say with very high certainty that when R1a Indo-Aryan tribes spread to Iran and India J2b2 was already native there and fact that we dont have J2b in modern Iran tells a story how J2 lost these territories to Iranians and was practically wiped out there.

When J2b2 is considered Iran is actually similar to Dalmatia since J2b was present in both of these territories at some point and then lost these territories to R1a Indo-Aryan tribes in Iran and India and R1a Slavic tribes in Dalmatia.
 
and the fun continues,
 

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