Arbereshe(pre 1500 Albanians) Y-DNA Vs (post 1500)Albanian Y-DNA. Big Differences!

You have literally no evidence that suggests that the area of modern day Albania historically had a high percentage of J2a-M410, there is no real diversity of M410 across the nation nor a high presence of basal clades.
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You are half right. We have little evidence to suggest that there was any J2a present in Ghegs.
We have plenty of evidence that both South Albanian inhabitands and Arbereshe all have healthy amounts of J2a as all other nations of the Balkans.
Here are 3 maps that explain things better. They are rather crude but they make the points suffieciently.
Untitledccdc1.jpg
Untitledccdc2.jpg
Untitledccdc3.jpg
(edit: by 1500 AD i really meant 15th century, before the ottoman conquest, and by 'balkans' in the 3rd map, lower Balkans)
The presence of Ghegs in the region is a paradox either you like it or not.
Many of the other haplogroups follow similar paterns.
Reconstructing the Illyrian populations haplogroups will be very informative too.

When you compare it to J2b-L283, It's clear which cluster has actually had an older presence in the region. As for the high presence of J2b-L283, yes there may have been an increase in frequency in post-Ottoman times due to the fact that much of the diversity was likely reduced as certain tribes went extinct, however most of the Albanian clusters of L283 actually have TMRCAs that go back to late Antiquity or the Early Medieval. Diversity of these clades also suggests a historical presence in the region.
Thank you, we agree. The proliferation of J2b in Albanians of different regions show a recent and rabid expansion and from a very small population.Which is what i said the evidence suggest.Whether J2b clades had presence in the region it is besides the point and something i didnt argue for or against.It has presence all over Eurasia, so what? I argued for the unusual concentration of it in Ghegs, and the also unusual absence of J2a in them.
If a Population for example had no E-v13 then then than population cant be from the Balkans, same is true about J2a.
Again, stop talking about things you know nothing about with such certainty. The clusters of J2b-L283 and R1b present in Albania show local origin for the most part, however the TMRCA for some suggests a bottleneck during the Early Medieval period. As for R1a and I2a-CTS10228, if you seriously believe that these haplogroups did not arrive via the Slavic expansion into the region, then I don't know what to say to you.
We are talking in cross purposes here budy. The Subject here is whether Ghegs were present in Albania in 1500 AD. They could have as easily originated from other parts of the Balkans. As for Yfull,it is a company deeply embeded with the Russian state institutions. Uless i understood the Yfull FAQ on their page incorectley, The Adamov et all method they use postulates a one-fit-all mutation rate (on which their dating is based) for all haplogroups.The adamov method heavily based on studies on ancient Amerindians, uses their mutationa rate to calibrate the dating of all other haplogroups.We dont know at all that:
a) all Haplogroups mutate at the same rate
b) Haplogroups mutate at the same rate under different enviromental, physical and social, pressures.
In fact a study that came out last year from a Belgian University suggests otherwise.It reports different mutation rates in different haplogroups, although they coexist in the same space and are subjected the same pressures.
t5t4fg5t4gf.jpg
 
Smells like inferiority complex...

Any source for the 3 map pictures your flaunting? Never saw something that made less sense.
First of all what do the colors represent, there is no key telling you what the colors even mean.
Secondly, one needs no more than two brain cells and a synapse to be able to tell that there is no way for those pictures to come from any peer reviewed academic study. Last I checked there is no time traveling machine as of yet... So how do you mean to tell me someone has the concentration of J2A, or even J2B2-L283 in 1500 AD AND 500 AD.
The funniest part, the "Ghegs in 500 AD" pic xD... I don't even think you know what "Gheg" means bro.

Holy f**k, I lost IQ just reading that post.
Also, you stink of inferiority complex!
 
At least you are learning English

in your map the line is after West Caucasos,

Is that also due to R1a invasions in Balkans? or Iran?

thank you for calling me a troll,
(y) :cool-v:


This is funny if he really thinks that. I think the guy is obvious troll. J2b-L283 was in West Iran or rather to say in Zagros mountains probably in time of 9600 ybp (late hunter-gatherers or first farmers). And expanded from Zagros to north Caucasus in time of 5700 ybp.
So there was really no Iranians neither Persians in time when J2b-L283 already left Zagros and spread to northern Black Sea shores where it was eventually picked up by R1b Indo-Europeans from Yamnaya culture and eventually spread to Europe with IE.

Also as a nail to the coffin goes fact that in Iran there is not even 1 % of J2b. And in India brother clade of European J2b2 is found but its more concentrated in south at Dravidians who are supposed to be more native to the territories, unlike more recent arriving Indo-Aryans.

Therefore J2b2 has nothing to do with Iranians, but i can say with very high certainty that when R1a Indo-Aryan tribes spread to Iran and India J2b2 was already native there and fact that we dont have J2b in modern Iran tells a story how J2 lost these territories to Iranians and was practically wiped out there.

When J2b2 is considered Iran is actually similar to Dalmatia since J2b was present in both of these territories at some point and then lost these territories to R1a Indo-Aryan tribes in Iran and India and R1a Slavic tribes in Dalmatia.



:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
 
.

You are half right. We have little evidence to suggest that there was any J2a present in Ghegs.
We have plenty of evidence that both South Albanian inhabitands and Arbereshe all have healthy amounts of J2a as all other nations of the Balkans.
Here are 3 maps that explain things better. They are rather crude but they make the points suffieciently.
View attachment 11979
View attachment 11980
View attachment 11981
(edit: by 1500 AD i really meant 15th century, before the ottoman conquest, and by 'balkans' in the 3rd map, lower Balkans)
The presence of Ghegs in the region is a paradox either you like it or not.
Many of the other haplogroups follow similar paterns.
Reconstructing the Illyrian populations haplogroups will be very informative too.


Thank you, we agree. The proliferation of J2b in Albanians of different regions show a recent and rabid expansion and from a very small population.Which is what i said the evidence suggest.Whether J2b clades had presence in the region it is besides the point and something i didnt argue for or against.It has presence all over Eurasia, so what? I argued for the unusual concentration of it in Ghegs, and the also unusual absence of J2a in them.
If a Population for example had no E-v13 then then than population cant be from the Balkans, same is true about J2a.

We are talking in cross purposes here budy. The Subject here is whether Ghegs were present in Albania in 1500 AD. They could have as easily originated from other parts of the Balkans. As for Yfull,it is a company deeply embeded with the Russian state institutions. Uless i understood the Yfull FAQ on their page incorectley, The Adamov et all method they use postulates a one-fit-all mutation rate (on which their dating is based) for all haplogroups.The adamov method heavily based on studies on ancient Amerindians, uses their mutationa rate to calibrate the dating of all other haplogroups.We dont know at all that:
a) all Haplogroups mutate at the same rate
b) Haplogroups mutate at the same rate under different enviromental, physical and social, pressures.
In fact a study that came out last year from a Belgian University suggests otherwise.It reports different mutation rates in different haplogroups, although they coexist in the same space and are subjected the same pressures.
View attachment 11978

Most idiotic thing i have seen on this site yet.
 
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You are half right. We have little evidence to suggest that there was any J2a present in Ghegs.
We have plenty of evidence that both South Albanian inhabitands and Arbereshe all have healthy amounts of J2a as all other nations of the Balkans.

J2a barely reaches 7~ in Tosks. Slavic R1a and I2a both get higher percentage. It is clear that most of it is from assimilated greeks.

Your desperate attempts to damage control are cringe inducing.

It is obvious this is a coping tactic to deal with the fact that Peloponesian Greeks have significant Albanian admixture.
 
This is troll thread lol
 
This is troll thread lol

Eupedia has failed. Most people have migrated to anthrogenica as it doesn't allow these type of trolls. I barely come on here anymore, and probably will stop altogether as anthrogenica has way better moderation.
 
This picture is from Arberesh study, but topic starter somehow didnt want to show it. If Greek primary haplogroups are Albanian E-v13 and Slavic I2a1 and R1a, then i ask myself who are the real Greeks lol?

I guess J2a guys, but most of them are pre-IE so they cant be connected to Greek language


Gm0n494.jpg
 
Have to agree with Derite and Dema.

I think its a low effort troll so I wont go in depth in debunking this nonesensse.
First of all he thinks Geghs in middle ages were a lake? - Shkodra Lake? Otherwise what is even that white region? As far as I know no administrative region of Albania has that shape? The highlighted region in white is basically sparsely habitated mountains.
Secondly, he thinks that there is a way to know % of a haplotype in the past retroactively.
Third, he makes the claim that J2A percentage in the past is equivalent to and I quote "reconstructing the pre-slavic population based on the non slavic haplogroups", think about that for a moment xD.
Last but not least, he 100% fabricated the three images he is not providing a source for. I am so sure of it that: if he did not fabricate the images I am willing to delete my Eupedia account.


So my rant, question... whatever you want to call it... How is this allowed in a serious forum? Makes me think it was healthy to stay away from Eupedia for a while.

I do not think he even realizes what the implications of what he is saying mean... Basically that J2B2-L283 was inexistant in 15th century... That somehow in 500 years they were so successful that today ~10% of all lineages in Epirus, Peloponnese and Athens are of Albanian descent. I mean how would a nationalistic donkey want to claim over 10% of male lineages in the three most ancient Greek regions are of Albanian descent...

If he even knew what the implications of his fabricated maps are, I am 100% sure he would not fabricate them.
Or maybe he is right, LMAO, and my forefathers somehow got it on with his foremothers en masse.
 
This picture is from Arberesh study, but topic starter somehow didnt want to show it. If Greek primary haplogroups are Albanian E-v13 and Slavic I2a1 and R1a, then i ask myself who are the real Greeks lol?

I guess J2a guys, but most of them are pre-IE so they cant be connected to Greek language
 
.

You are half right. We have little evidence to suggest that there was any J2a present in Ghegs.
We have plenty of evidence that both South Albanian inhabitands and Arbereshe all have healthy amounts of J2a as all other nations of the Balkans.
Here are 3 maps that explain things better. They are rather crude but they make the points suffieciently.
View attachment 11979
View attachment 11980
View attachment 11981
(edit: by 1500 AD i really meant 15th century, before the ottoman conquest, and by 'balkans' in the 3rd map, lower Balkans)
The presence of Ghegs in the region is a paradox either you like it or not.
Many of the other haplogroups follow similar paterns.
Reconstructing the Illyrian populations haplogroups will be very informative too.


Thank you, we agree. The proliferation of J2b in Albanians of different regions show a recent and rabid expansion and from a very small population.Which is what i said the evidence suggest.Whether J2b clades had presence in the region it is besides the point and something i didnt argue for or against.It has presence all over Eurasia, so what? I argued for the unusual concentration of it in Ghegs, and the also unusual absence of J2a in them.
If a Population for example had no E-v13 then then than population cant be from the Balkans, same is true about J2a.

We are talking in cross purposes here budy. The Subject here is whether Ghegs were present in Albania in 1500 AD. They could have as easily originated from other parts of the Balkans. As for Yfull,it is a company deeply embeded with the Russian state institutions. Uless i understood the Yfull FAQ on their page incorectley, The Adamov et all method they use postulates a one-fit-all mutation rate (on which their dating is based) for all haplogroups.The adamov method heavily based on studies on ancient Amerindians, uses their mutationa rate to calibrate the dating of all other haplogroups.We dont know at all that:
a) all Haplogroups mutate at the same rate
b) Haplogroups mutate at the same rate under different enviromental, physical and social, pressures.
In fact a study that came out last year from a Belgian University suggests otherwise.It reports different mutation rates in different haplogroups, although they coexist in the same space and are subjected the same pressures.
View attachment 11978
lol great job in creating some maps that have no backing whatsoever.. Post evidence that backs your claims and then come and discuss. I see that you placed the Arbereshe in present day northern and central Albania, again they were from south Albania and even Greece. It seems as if you are purposely ignoring somethings. Also in regards to the J2a-M410 in Tosk-speaking Albanians, the vast majority of it doesn't even seem to be directly connected to Greeks. Most from what I have seen are likely the result of migrations during the Roman period from the Italian Peninsula or eastern Mediterranean. Wouldn't surprise me if most is actually from assimilated Aromanians given that they match some.

As for the expansion from a small population of J2b-L283 carriers, this is very incorrect given the high diversity of L283+ clusters among Albanians. Suggesting an early presence in the area and separate origins. About the comment if a population is lacking in J2a it cannot be from the Balkans, this is complete BS that is very illogical and quite stupid to be frank. Haplogroup percentages can fluctuate pretty easily, with some groups going extinct in some populations. This would mean something if say Gheg Albanians were lacking in J2b-L283, R-Z2705 and E-V13. But that isn't the case.

Are you seriously questioning if Gheg Albanians were present in Albania or their current regions during the 16th century AD? We have Venetian, Serbian and Ottoman records from the 14th and 15th centuries that confirm the presence of an Albanian population in northern Albania, Montenegro, North Macedonia and Kosovo. Put aside your nationalistic agendas and then lets have a conversation.
 
This picture is from Arberesh study, but topic starter somehow didnt want to show it. If Greek primary haplogroups are Albanian E-v13 and Slavic I2a1 and R1a, then i ask myself who are the real Greeks lol?

E-V13 can hardly be more Albanian in general than Greek because when V13 started expanding if it was anything defined the most likely version is: proto-Greek (among few others ofc)

I remember you trolling my Greek V13 analysis post where I said still there are many clearly Greek clades.

LBA saw many Greek Dorians coming to Mycenean Greece from some formerly (prior to LBA) Greek areas in the Central Balkans or elsewhere..

E-V13 met proto-Illyrian J-L283 or whatever other hg 4500 years ago but went with R-KMS67 and other Yamnaya.. That's what happened.. Archaeological evidence paints a crystal clear picture.

And if you read RafC's work on V13 he went for the same E-V13=proto-Greek. And it seems he was fundamentally right in that point (there are other things such as various V13 clades taking other paths).

Sure there are various Greeks of Arvanite origin but nowhere near the amount that Albanians claim. In fact there are some samples without Arvanites, such as in Korinthia where E-V13 is 25 %. (I don't think single Arvanite haplotype was there and I looked at them).
 
I guess J2a guys, but most of them are pre-IE so they cant be connected to Greek language

But many Greek E-V13's can so it would be nice of more Greeks to test. They have far less deep tested E-V13 than I-Y3120's because of anti E-V13 "Pellasgoi slave" propaganda propagated by various people including some Greeks and Albanian themselves.. But more facts will teach these a lesson..
 
But many Greek E-V13's can so it would be nice of more Greeks to test. They have far less deep tested E-V13 than I-Y3120's because of anti E-V13 "Pellasgoi slave" propaganda propagated by various people including some Greeks and Albanian themselves.. But more facts will teach these a lesson..

We really don't care. I get a lot more DNA matches from Greek immigrants in Germany that Greeks that live in Greece. Greeks in Greece would rather spend their money elsewhere. We are secure of our place in history. We don't have to justify who we are or when we got here or whether there are some Arvanites or some Slavs or some people from Asia Minor that are Hellenized locals.
 
E-V13 can hardly be more Albanian in general than Greek because when V13 started expanding if it was anything defined the most likely version is: proto-Greek (among few others ofc)

I remember you trolling my Greek V13 analysis post where I said still there are many clearly Greek clades.

LBA saw many Greek Dorians coming to Mycenean Greece from some formerly (prior to LBA) Greek areas in the Central Balkans or elsewhere..

E-V13 met proto-Illyrian J-L283 or whatever other hg 4500 years ago but went with R-KMS67 and other Yamnaya.. That's what happened.. Archaeological evidence paints a crystal clear picture.

And if you read RafC's work on V13 he went for the same E-V13=proto-Greek. And it seems he was fundamentally right in that point (there are other things such as various V13 clades taking other paths).

Sure there are various Greeks of Arvanite origin but nowhere near the amount that Albanians claim. In fact there are some samples without Arvanites, such as in Korinthia where E-V13 is 25 %. (I don't think single Arvanite haplotype was there and I looked at them).



Yes but still, they are saying that Ghegs arrived in 15 century AD while these same Ghegs have at least double the amount of main Greek haplogroup, so E-v13.

Majority of Greek E-v13 must be from assimilated Illyrians and later Albanians/Arvanites. Even if its not, how can they be alien when they have double the amount of main Greek haplogroup, if anything they are more Greek then Greeks are. You dont know all the E-v13 clades ancient Illyrians and even Albanians had 1000 years ago. You only see modern result after severe bottlenecks and then expansions.

How do you explain this picture when Albanians have double the amount of main Greek haplogroup and Greek second and third largest groups are R1a and I2a-CTS10228 which are Slavic in origin ?

Where are Greeks in this story ? And even tho i agree with you that real Greeks would have to be E-v13, E-v13 cant be proto Illyrian neither proto Greek. Proto Greek and Illyrian can be only R1b since they are original Indo-European centum carriers. E-v13 and J2b2 also J2a for that matter got indo-europeanised by R1b therefore we cant consider them true proto-Greeks neither proto-Illyrians.

Somehow i had a feeling that i will activate you if i say that E-v13 is Albanian hehe, but you can't deny that there is nowhere in the world E-v13 percentage like in Albanians. Also accompanied with fair diversity. Geographically further from Albanians less E-v13 we find, simple as that.

Just explain this to me ? Why Greeks have only the half of main Albanian haplogroup while the other two of their primary haplogroups are Slavic in origin.... Where are real Greeks ?

1NjGqXy.jpg
 
We really don't care. I get a lot more DNA matches from Greek immigrants in Germany that Greeks that live in Greece. Greeks in Greece would rather spend their money elsewhere. We are secure of our place in history. We don't have to justify who we are or when we got here or whether there are some Arvanites or some Slavs or some people from Asia Minor that are Hellenized locals.

Actually the psychological motivator behind not testing is to not disrupt and challenge the constructed fantasy. Avoid examination and study.
 
Actually the psychological motivator behind not testing is to not disrupt and challenge the constructed fantasy. Avoid examination and study.

I don’t think so. Actually a lot of Greeks have tested, and it’s growing, based on results posted in social media, where many can see and share. I think the academic studies so far have established that Greeks weren’t completely obliterated or replaced by medieval invasions. Rather, the invaders likely more or less blended in with pre-existing populations. Studies appear to have discredited the opposite propaganda, that of complete replacement. That may not be sitting very well with replacement proponents, be they Nordicists, Fallmerayer types, etc.
 
J2b2 presence among Etruscans and Nuragic Sardinians is a big hint between. That Bronze Age Croatian might well have been part of a population related to Etruscans. J2b2 spread doesn't fit with IE language model. It's only present among Gheg Albanians.
 
E-V13 can hardly be more Albanian in general than Greek because when V13 started expanding if it was anything defined the most likely version is: proto-Greek (among few others ofc)

I remember you trolling my Greek V13 analysis post where I said still there are many clearly Greek clades.
LBA saw many Greek Dorians coming to Mycenean Greece from some formerly (prior to LBA) Greek areas in the Central Balkans or elsewhere..
E-V13 met proto-Illyrian J-L283 or whatever other hg 4500 years ago but went with R-KMS67 and other Yamnaya.. That's what happened.. Archaeological evidence paints a crystal clear picture.
And if you read RafC's work on V13 he went for the same E-V13=proto-Greek. And it seems he was fundamentally right in that point (there are other things such as various V13 clades taking other paths).
Sure there are various Greeks of Arvanite origin but nowhere near the amount that Albanians claim. In fact there are some samples without Arvanites, such as in Korinthia where E-V13 is 25 %. (I don't think single Arvanite haplotype was there and I looked at them).
Where is that RafC work? Are you talking about Argonauts of the Balkans?
Anyway, I wouldn't be so sure about it. Western Europeans in general are huge Greek larpers because of their 'democracy' fetish.
On the other hand, they hugely underestimate the influence of other Balkan people especially during the Roman times.
Once again, it's very hard for me to believe that E-V13 has anything to do with proto-Greeks, that's just wishes of some people.
Don't be confused by modern distribution of E-V13.
So far we haven't found any V13 among the ancient Greeks although the ancient Greeks are some of the most represented in the archeogenetic studies.
I've heard they found couple of R1b among them in the upcoming papers by leaks on Anthrogenica and I haven't heard anything of V13.
On other hand, I have informations that some upcoming papers will throw light upon V13 in the near feature and the Carpathian basin will be very important for this group.
So judging by archeogenetics so far, neither Pelasgians nor proto-Greeks were E-V13. The Pelasgians would just be a mainland version of the Minoans and probably mostly J2a and G, while R1b brought the proto-Greeks.
Anyway, pls share what RafC paper you was talking about.
 

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