Dema
Regular Member
- Messages
- 545
- Reaction score
- 93
- Points
- 28
- Ethnic group
- Albanian
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- J2-M205
and the fun continues,
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and the fun continues,
.You have literally no evidence that suggests that the area of modern day Albania historically had a high percentage of J2a-M410, there is no real diversity of M410 across the nation nor a high presence of basal clades.
Thank you, we agree. The proliferation of J2b in Albanians of different regions show a recent and rabid expansion and from a very small population.Which is what i said the evidence suggest.Whether J2b clades had presence in the region it is besides the point and something i didnt argue for or against.It has presence all over Eurasia, so what? I argued for the unusual concentration of it in Ghegs, and the also unusual absence of J2a in them.When you compare it to J2b-L283, It's clear which cluster has actually had an older presence in the region. As for the high presence of J2b-L283, yes there may have been an increase in frequency in post-Ottoman times due to the fact that much of the diversity was likely reduced as certain tribes went extinct, however most of the Albanian clusters of L283 actually have TMRCAs that go back to late Antiquity or the Early Medieval. Diversity of these clades also suggests a historical presence in the region.
We are talking in cross purposes here budy. The Subject here is whether Ghegs were present in Albania in 1500 AD. They could have as easily originated from other parts of the Balkans. As for Yfull,it is a company deeply embeded with the Russian state institutions. Uless i understood the Yfull FAQ on their page incorectley, The Adamov et all method they use postulates a one-fit-all mutation rate (on which their dating is based) for all haplogroups.The adamov method heavily based on studies on ancient Amerindians, uses their mutationa rate to calibrate the dating of all other haplogroups.We dont know at all that:Again, stop talking about things you know nothing about with such certainty. The clusters of J2b-L283 and R1b present in Albania show local origin for the most part, however the TMRCA for some suggests a bottleneck during the Early Medieval period. As for R1a and I2a-CTS10228, if you seriously believe that these haplogroups did not arrive via the Slavic expansion into the region, then I don't know what to say to you.
At least you are learning English
This is funny if he really thinks that. I think the guy is obvious troll. J2b-L283 was in West Iran or rather to say in Zagros mountains probably in time of 9600 ybp (late hunter-gatherers or first farmers). And expanded from Zagros to north Caucasus in time of 5700 ybp.
So there was really no Iranians neither Persians in time when J2b-L283 already left Zagros and spread to northern Black Sea shores where it was eventually picked up by R1b Indo-Europeans from Yamnaya culture and eventually spread to Europe with IE.
Also as a nail to the coffin goes fact that in Iran there is not even 1 % of J2b. And in India brother clade of European J2b2 is found but its more concentrated in south at Dravidians who are supposed to be more native to the territories, unlike more recent arriving Indo-Aryans.
Therefore J2b2 has nothing to do with Iranians, but i can say with very high certainty that when R1a Indo-Aryan tribes spread to Iran and India J2b2 was already native there and fact that we dont have J2b in modern Iran tells a story how J2 lost these territories to Iranians and was practically wiped out there.
When J2b2 is considered Iran is actually similar to Dalmatia since J2b was present in both of these territories at some point and then lost these territories to R1a Indo-Aryan tribes in Iran and India and R1a Slavic tribes in Dalmatia.
.
You are half right. We have little evidence to suggest that there was any J2a present in Ghegs.
We have plenty of evidence that both South Albanian inhabitands and Arbereshe all have healthy amounts of J2a as all other nations of the Balkans.
Here are 3 maps that explain things better. They are rather crude but they make the points suffieciently.
View attachment 11979
View attachment 11980
View attachment 11981
(edit: by 1500 AD i really meant 15th century, before the ottoman conquest, and by 'balkans' in the 3rd map, lower Balkans)
The presence of Ghegs in the region is a paradox either you like it or not.
Many of the other haplogroups follow similar paterns.
Reconstructing the Illyrian populations haplogroups will be very informative too.
Thank you, we agree. The proliferation of J2b in Albanians of different regions show a recent and rabid expansion and from a very small population.Which is what i said the evidence suggest.Whether J2b clades had presence in the region it is besides the point and something i didnt argue for or against.It has presence all over Eurasia, so what? I argued for the unusual concentration of it in Ghegs, and the also unusual absence of J2a in them.
If a Population for example had no E-v13 then then than population cant be from the Balkans, same is true about J2a.
We are talking in cross purposes here budy. The Subject here is whether Ghegs were present in Albania in 1500 AD. They could have as easily originated from other parts of the Balkans. As for Yfull,it is a company deeply embeded with the Russian state institutions. Uless i understood the Yfull FAQ on their page incorectley, The Adamov et all method they use postulates a one-fit-all mutation rate (on which their dating is based) for all haplogroups.The adamov method heavily based on studies on ancient Amerindians, uses their mutationa rate to calibrate the dating of all other haplogroups.We dont know at all that:
a) all Haplogroups mutate at the same rate
b) Haplogroups mutate at the same rate under different enviromental, physical and social, pressures.
In fact a study that came out last year from a Belgian University suggests otherwise.It reports different mutation rates in different haplogroups, although they coexist in the same space and are subjected the same pressures.
View attachment 11978
.
You are half right. We have little evidence to suggest that there was any J2a present in Ghegs.
We have plenty of evidence that both South Albanian inhabitands and Arbereshe all have healthy amounts of J2a as all other nations of the Balkans.
This is troll thread lol
lol great job in creating some maps that have no backing whatsoever.. Post evidence that backs your claims and then come and discuss. I see that you placed the Arbereshe in present day northern and central Albania, again they were from south Albania and even Greece. It seems as if you are purposely ignoring somethings. Also in regards to the J2a-M410 in Tosk-speaking Albanians, the vast majority of it doesn't even seem to be directly connected to Greeks. Most from what I have seen are likely the result of migrations during the Roman period from the Italian Peninsula or eastern Mediterranean. Wouldn't surprise me if most is actually from assimilated Aromanians given that they match some..
You are half right. We have little evidence to suggest that there was any J2a present in Ghegs.
We have plenty of evidence that both South Albanian inhabitands and Arbereshe all have healthy amounts of J2a as all other nations of the Balkans.
Here are 3 maps that explain things better. They are rather crude but they make the points suffieciently.
View attachment 11979
View attachment 11980
View attachment 11981
(edit: by 1500 AD i really meant 15th century, before the ottoman conquest, and by 'balkans' in the 3rd map, lower Balkans)
The presence of Ghegs in the region is a paradox either you like it or not.
Many of the other haplogroups follow similar paterns.
Reconstructing the Illyrian populations haplogroups will be very informative too.
Thank you, we agree. The proliferation of J2b in Albanians of different regions show a recent and rabid expansion and from a very small population.Which is what i said the evidence suggest.Whether J2b clades had presence in the region it is besides the point and something i didnt argue for or against.It has presence all over Eurasia, so what? I argued for the unusual concentration of it in Ghegs, and the also unusual absence of J2a in them.
If a Population for example had no E-v13 then then than population cant be from the Balkans, same is true about J2a.
We are talking in cross purposes here budy. The Subject here is whether Ghegs were present in Albania in 1500 AD. They could have as easily originated from other parts of the Balkans. As for Yfull,it is a company deeply embeded with the Russian state institutions. Uless i understood the Yfull FAQ on their page incorectley, The Adamov et all method they use postulates a one-fit-all mutation rate (on which their dating is based) for all haplogroups.The adamov method heavily based on studies on ancient Amerindians, uses their mutationa rate to calibrate the dating of all other haplogroups.We dont know at all that:
a) all Haplogroups mutate at the same rate
b) Haplogroups mutate at the same rate under different enviromental, physical and social, pressures.
In fact a study that came out last year from a Belgian University suggests otherwise.It reports different mutation rates in different haplogroups, although they coexist in the same space and are subjected the same pressures.
View attachment 11978
This picture is from Arberesh study, but topic starter somehow didnt want to show it. If Greek primary haplogroups are Albanian E-v13 and Slavic I2a1 and R1a, then i ask myself who are the real Greeks lol?
I guess J2a guys, but most of them are pre-IE so they cant be connected to Greek language
But many Greek E-V13's can so it would be nice of more Greeks to test. They have far less deep tested E-V13 than I-Y3120's because of anti E-V13 "Pellasgoi slave" propaganda propagated by various people including some Greeks and Albanian themselves.. But more facts will teach these a lesson..
E-V13 can hardly be more Albanian in general than Greek because when V13 started expanding if it was anything defined the most likely version is: proto-Greek (among few others ofc)
I remember you trolling my Greek V13 analysis post where I said still there are many clearly Greek clades.
LBA saw many Greek Dorians coming to Mycenean Greece from some formerly (prior to LBA) Greek areas in the Central Balkans or elsewhere..
E-V13 met proto-Illyrian J-L283 or whatever other hg 4500 years ago but went with R-KMS67 and other Yamnaya.. That's what happened.. Archaeological evidence paints a crystal clear picture.
And if you read RafC's work on V13 he went for the same E-V13=proto-Greek. And it seems he was fundamentally right in that point (there are other things such as various V13 clades taking other paths).
Sure there are various Greeks of Arvanite origin but nowhere near the amount that Albanians claim. In fact there are some samples without Arvanites, such as in Korinthia where E-V13 is 25 %. (I don't think single Arvanite haplotype was there and I looked at them).
We really don't care. I get a lot more DNA matches from Greek immigrants in Germany that Greeks that live in Greece. Greeks in Greece would rather spend their money elsewhere. We are secure of our place in history. We don't have to justify who we are or when we got here or whether there are some Arvanites or some Slavs or some people from Asia Minor that are Hellenized locals.
Actually the psychological motivator behind not testing is to not disrupt and challenge the constructed fantasy. Avoid examination and study.
Where is that RafC work? Are you talking about Argonauts of the Balkans?E-V13 can hardly be more Albanian in general than Greek because when V13 started expanding if it was anything defined the most likely version is: proto-Greek (among few others ofc)
I remember you trolling my Greek V13 analysis post where I said still there are many clearly Greek clades.
LBA saw many Greek Dorians coming to Mycenean Greece from some formerly (prior to LBA) Greek areas in the Central Balkans or elsewhere..
E-V13 met proto-Illyrian J-L283 or whatever other hg 4500 years ago but went with R-KMS67 and other Yamnaya.. That's what happened.. Archaeological evidence paints a crystal clear picture.
And if you read RafC's work on V13 he went for the same E-V13=proto-Greek. And it seems he was fundamentally right in that point (there are other things such as various V13 clades taking other paths).
Sure there are various Greeks of Arvanite origin but nowhere near the amount that Albanians claim. In fact there are some samples without Arvanites, such as in Korinthia where E-V13 is 25 %. (I don't think single Arvanite haplotype was there and I looked at them).
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