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Thread: Arbereshe(pre 1500 Albanians) Y-DNA Vs (post 1500)Albanian Y-DNA. Big Differences!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    OK, so local Italian men were let into the Arbereshe tribes. Do we have a good idea of what the prevalent Y-DNA haplogroups of the locals were?

    Why does talking with Albanians remind me of trying to talk with Trumpists? They always answer, "But Hillary...".
    From my experience, it's more often that the Arbereshe melted into the surrounding community than that Italians were incorporated into the Arbereshe community. I've known people for 20 years whom I found out only recently had quite a bit of Arbereshe ancestry. They married out, men and women, changed religion etc. They identify as Sicilian, Calabrian, whatever.

    If the yDna in those who still adhere to the customs, religious rites etc. is different from that of the Albanians in Albania, then they must indeed have incorporated Italian men, I suppose.


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    Between, you banning only Albanians like this is not appropriate.

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    I have a lot of Arberesh friends, one of whom has a Calabrian father (he died when he was a kid) and a Arberesh mother, he is a Albanian-speaker and identifies as Arberesh ...Now just imagine, if after some centuries someone does the y-dna test to his male descendants, how should they explain his typical 'non-Albanian' haplogroup ?! Also as historical curiosity a part of the Arberesh in Italy are with Arvanitic origin (Stradioti, Coronei etc) and not only !!https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.int...anesi-arberesh

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    Quote Originally Posted by exercitus View Post
    I have a lot of Arberesh friends, one of whom has a Calabrian father (he died when he was a kid) and a Arberesh mother, he is a Albanian-speaker and identifies as Arberesh ...Now just imagine, if after some centuries someone does the y-dna test to his male descendants, how should they explain his typical 'non-Albanian' haplogroup ?! Also as historical curiosity a part of the Arberesh in Italy are with Arvanitic origin (Stradioti, Coronei etc) and not only !!https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.int...anesi-arberesh
    From an eupedia thread.:

    Very interesting results for haplogroups. This is what I got as far as the percentage of the most frequent haplogroups, all samples are on table S3:

    Gheg Albanians:
    E-V13: 38%
    J2b: 25%
    R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
    R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
    I2a-xM26,M223: 3.3%
    R1a-M17: 2.5%
    I1-M253: 3.3%

    Tosk Albanians:
    E-V13: 29%
    J2b: 12%
    R1b-L51 xP311: 8%
    R1b-M269 xL51: 6%
    I2a-xM26,M223: 11.5%
    I2a-M223: 5%
    R1a-M17: 6%
    I1-M253: 3.8%

    Arbereshe Albanians (Southern Italy):
    E-V13: 15%
    J2b: 3%
    R1b-L51 xP311: NONE
    R1b-M269 xL51: 8%
    I2a-xM26, M223: 10%
    I2a-M223: 10%
    R1a-M17: 10%
    E1b-xV13: 13%
    I1-M253: 5.3%

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...thern-Italians
    Essentially, Arberesh like Tosk Albanians have higher Slavic/Vlach input through their Y-DNA than North Albanians. If you combine the Arberesh E-V13, it's 28%. It's their main Y-DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Do you know the split for R1a, however? Non-Slavic R1a might be older in the Balkans as well as Greece, although I make no claims about the frequency.

    I vaguely recall there's little Slavic R1a in Greece and not much R1a at all, but what exists is more often Z-93. Is that correct for Albania as well?
    Perhaps it is not the right place to ask (since this thread is supposed to be about Arbereshë), but I found your question ("Is that correct for Albania as well?") interesting and would like to check and compare the data. Do you know/remember any scientific paper (or a thread) with detailed data about R1a in Greece ? I could just find a post from rafc on another thread saying this: "From the limited deeper phase there's 8,3% Z93, 25% from the fairly recent CTS11962, 8,3% from L784, 37,5% from CTS3402, 12,5% from CTS1211 (xCTS3402). A quick check with the FTDNA R1a project reveals that there also L1029/CTS11962 and CTS1211 represent the largest share of Greek samples".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    Between, you banning only Albanians like this is not appropriate.
    Guess you didn't notice the Greek who got banned, Not my problem if more of you piled on. You're on thin ice so by all means continue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    From an eupedia thread.:



    Essentially, Arberesh like Tosk Albanians have higher Slavic/Vlach input through their Y-DNA than North Albanians. If you combine the Arberesh E-V13, it's 28%. It's their main Y-DNA.
    What I see is quite a bit of southern Italian male introgression.

    @Illyri,
    Ill see what I can find.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Guess you didn't notice the Greek who got banned, Not my problem if more of you piled on. You're on thin ice so by all means continue.
    Roger, Angelita. :P

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    Arbereshe(pre 1500 Albanians) Y-DNA Vs (post 1500)Albanian Y-DNA. Big Differences!

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Guess you didn't notice the Greek who got banned, Not my problem if more of you piled on. You're on thin ice so by all means continue.
    There is nothing to continue here....this paper has been discussed before. This was only a Greek charade that you allowed here, who knows why? Now is time to shut it down not to ban Albanians.



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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    there is nothing to continue here....this paper has been discussed before. This was only a greek charade that you allowed here, who knows why? Now is time to shut it down not to ban albanians.



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    Then stop posting here!

    My children got out of grade school a while ago. I'm in no mood to go back to "mommy mode" and police every post of every thread even tangentially related to the Balkans to see whether a Greek or an Albanian started the merry go round. If someone is out of line, REPORT the person rather than getting on board.

    How the hell old are you people anyway?

    The next person who posts an off topic comment here is also going to get banned. I'm not going to give you guys an easy way out by closing the thread.

    FOLLOW the freaking orders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Then stop posting here!

    My children got out of grade school a while ago. I'm in no mood to go back to "mommy mode" and police every post of every thread even tangentially related to the Balkans to see whether a Greek or an Albanian started the merry go round. If someone is out of line, REPORT the person rather than getting on board.

    How the hell old are you people anyway?

    The next person who posts an off topic comment here is also going to get banned. I'm not going to give you guys an easy way out by closing the thread.

    FOLLOW the freaking orders.
    Blevins13/ Angela: I think this is an interesting thread. Let me say up front I can speak to the Arbereshe in Sicily directly. The town Contessa Entellina was historically an Elymian town and it sits in the Belice Valley in now Modern Palermo Province, many of my ancestors came from Trapani in the Belice Valley (about 25 KM). However, on my Fathers side, his Maternal Grandmother's (my Great Grandmother) father was from Contessa Entellina. My mothers Father was born in Palazzo Adriano, which is a town that was both Byzantine and Roman with respect to the Catholic Church. I have mentioned this before but in the Piazza as your facing it, to the right is the Byzantine-Greek Catholic Church and to the Left is the Roman. My Great Grandfather on my mothers side (her Mother's father) was baptized in the Byzantine-Greek Catholic Church in Palazzo Adriano. So I guess I am an example of an American of Sicilian ancestry who has some ancestors that have some connection to the Arbereshe, although I think mine sort of blended in with the locals. In addition my Maternal Great Grandfather I mentioned above ancestors come from Contessa Entellina as well, based on my own research and a cousin who has done the same research.

    So looking at my own Distances, I seem to cluster closer with Greeks than Albanians, but Albanians in both model come in within my cutoff of 15. So consistent with the paper cited above, the Arbereshe from Contessa Entellina seem to closer to Greeks, but not that they are super far from Albanians. Now my results could be just mine or it could be similar for other people with 100% of their ancestry from Sicily whose ancestors come from the same regions around where mine come from. So I am only commenting on on this thread because it is something that is part of my own story. I tend to stay in my own lane (only post in forums with DNA studies on Italian DNA, or ancient Europeans, etc) and I also will post on the ancient Greeks since I get some Chroma matches on ancient Greeks from Mytrue ancestry and the well known historical connection between ancient Greece and Sicily and Southern Italy.

    Anyway, I hope my own results can shed a partial light on the Arbereshe at least as it relates to those who settled in Contessa Entellina and Palazzo Adriano.

    Eurogenes K13 updated (cutoff 15)

    Distance to: PalermoTrapani
    3.63130830 West_Sicilian
    4.27984813 Molise
    4.53094913 Apulia
    4.54467821 Abruzzo
    5.01440924 Campania
    5.30913364 Sicily
    5.36017724 Basilicata
    6.03359760 Malta
    6.04806581 East_Sicilian
    6.68697989 Calabria
    7.02694101 Central_Greek
    8.55354313 Marche
    8.61175360 Lazio
    8.68674277 Greek_Andros_Island
    9.16282162 Greek_Western-Thrace
    9.23201495 Ashkenazi
    9.66857280 Umbria
    9.72998972 Moroccan_Jew
    10.07475062 Greek_Symi_Island
    10.19252177 Italian_Jewish
    10.65898213 Romagna
    10.74883249 Sephardic_Jewish
    10.85722801 Tuscan
    10.87747213 Algerian_Jewish
    11.43605920 GR_Peloponese
    11.48721463 Greek_Peloponnese
    11.49051457 Greek_Dodecanese
    12.04027408 Greek_Thessaly
    12.07744178 Greek_Chios
    12.26214908 FrenchCorsica
    12.46806721 Vlach_Central-Macedonia
    12.64785357 Turk_Crete
    13.15686893 Greek_Eastern-Macedonia
    13.24787530 Greek_Eastern-Thrace
    13.65380533 Albanian
    13.71040845 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
    13.88943483 Tuscany
    14.50232050 Greek_Macedonia_Thrace
    14.68938392 Greek_Central-Macedonia
    14.78912776 Turk_Alexandroupoli
    15.25711310 Greek_Istanbul
    15.32262053 GR_Macedonia
    15.36462495 Emilia
    15.39221264 Kosovo_Albanian

    Dodecad K12B (cutoff 15 rounded)

    Distance to: PalermoTrapani
    3.56228943 Italy_Campania
    3.83059103 Italy_Abruzzo
    4.03985458 Italy_Sicily
    5.85659507 Italy_Calabria
    6.30021809 Italy_Apulia
    7.04316676 Italy_Marche
    7.65791512 Italy_Lazio
    9.80278022 Ashkenazi
    9.98721683 Tuscan_HGDP01169
    10.34941544 Ashkenazy_Jews
    10.37221770 Greek_Crete
    10.45749014 Italy_Romagna
    10.84031826 Greek
    10.92670582 Tuscan_HGDP01167
    11.20844325 Tuscan_HGDP01164
    11.49819986 Tuscan_HGDP01163
    11.64560432 Sephardic_Jews
    11.83492290 Tuscan_HGDP01162
    12.36329244 Tuscan_HGDP01166
    12.49756776 Tuscan_HGDP01161
    12.53945374 Morocco_Jews
    12.69671611 Tuscan_HGDP01168
    12.70455178 France_Corsica
    13.19014973 Italy_Tuscany
    14.40640483 Crimean_Tatar_Coast
    14.95868467 Italy_Emilia
    15.08634150 Albanian_Kosovo
    15.33470900 Turk_Macedonia

    On closing note, please do not drag me into these Greek and Albanian squabbles. Thanks, hope everyone is doing well with the COVID-19 lock downs.

    Dio Benedica tutti
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 19-04-20 at 02:56. Reason: typo

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Blevins13/ Angela: I think this is an interesting thread. Let me say up front I can speak to the Arbereshe in Sicily directly. The town Contessa Entellina was historically an Elymian town and it sits in the Belice Valley in now Modern Palermo Province, many of my ancestors came from Trapani in the Belice Valley (about 25 KM). However, on my Fathers side, his Maternal Grandmother's (my Great Grandmother) father was from Contessa Entellina. My mothers Father was born in Palazzo Adriano, which is a town that was both Byzantine and Roman with respect to the Catholic Church. I have mentioned this before but in the Piazza as your facing it, to the right is the Byzantine-Greek Catholic Church and to the Left is the Roman. My Great Grandfather on my mothers side (her Mother's father) was baptized in the Byzantine-Greek Catholic Church in Palazzo Adriano. So I guess I am an example of an American of Sicilian ancestry who has some ancestors that have some connection to the Arbereshe, although I think mine sort of blended in with the locals. In addition my Maternal Great Grandfather I mentioned above ancestors come from Contessa Entellina as well, based on my own research and a cousin who has done the same research.

    So looking at my own Distances, I seem to cluster closer with Greeks than Albanians, but Albanians in both model come in within my cutoff of 15. So consistent with the paper cited above, the Arbereshe from Contessa Entellina seem to closer to Greeks, but not that they are super far from Albanians. Now my results could be just mine or it could be similar for other people with 100% of their ancestry from Sicily whose ancestors come from the same regions around where mine come from. So I am only commenting on on this thread because it is something that is part of my own story. I tend to stay in my own lane (only post in forums with DNA studies on Italian DNA, or ancient Europeans, etc) and I also will post on the ancient Greeks since I get some Chroma matches on ancient Greeks from Mytrue ancestry and the well known historical connection between ancient Greece and Sicily and Southern Italy.

    Anyway, I hope my own results can shed a partial light on the Arbereshe at least as it relates to those who settled in Contessa Entellina and Palazzo Adriano.

    Eurogenes K13 updated (cutoff 15)

    Distance to: PalermoTrapani
    3.63130830 West_Sicilian
    4.27984813 Molise
    4.53094913 Apulia
    4.54467821 Abruzzo
    5.01440924 Campania
    5.30913364 Sicily
    5.36017724 Basilicata
    6.03359760 Malta
    6.04806581 East_Sicilian
    6.68697989 Calabria
    7.02694101 Central_Greek
    8.55354313 Marche
    8.61175360 Lazio
    8.68674277 Greek_Andros_Island
    9.16282162 Greek_Western-Thrace
    9.23201495 Ashkenazi
    9.66857280 Umbria
    9.72998972 Moroccan_Jew
    10.07475062 Greek_Symi_Island
    10.19252177 Italian_Jewish
    10.65898213 Romagna
    10.74883249 Sephardic_Jewish
    10.85722801 Tuscan
    10.87747213 Algerian_Jewish
    11.43605920 GR_Peloponese
    11.48721463 Greek_Peloponnese
    11.49051457 Greek_Dodecanese
    12.04027408 Greek_Thessaly
    12.07744178 Greek_Chios
    12.26214908 FrenchCorsica
    12.46806721 Vlach_Central-Macedonia
    12.64785357 Turk_Crete
    13.15686893 Greek_Eastern-Macedonia
    13.24787530 Greek_Eastern-Thrace
    13.65380533 Albanian
    13.71040845 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
    13.88943483 Tuscany
    14.50232050 Greek_Macedonia_Thrace
    14.68938392 Greek_Central-Macedonia
    14.78912776 Turk_Alexandroupoli
    15.25711310 Greek_Istanbul
    15.32262053 GR_Macedonia
    15.36462495 Emilia
    15.39221264 Kosovo_Albanian

    Dodecad K12B (cutoff 15 rounded)

    Distance to: PalermoTrapani
    3.56228943 Italy_Campania
    3.83059103 Italy_Abruzzo
    4.03985458 Italy_Sicily
    5.85659507 Italy_Calabria
    6.30021809 Italy_Apulia
    7.04316676 Italy_Marche
    7.65791512 Italy_Lazio
    9.80278022 Ashkenazi
    9.98721683 Tuscan_HGDP01169
    10.34941544 Ashkenazy_Jews
    10.37221770 Greek_Crete
    10.45749014 Italy_Romagna
    10.84031826 Greek
    10.92670582 Tuscan_HGDP01167
    11.20844325 Tuscan_HGDP01164
    11.49819986 Tuscan_HGDP01163
    11.64560432 Sephardic_Jews
    11.83492290 Tuscan_HGDP01162
    12.36329244 Tuscan_HGDP01166
    12.49756776 Tuscan_HGDP01161
    12.53945374 Morocco_Jews
    12.69671611 Tuscan_HGDP01168
    12.70455178 France_Corsica
    13.19014973 Italy_Tuscany
    14.40640483 Crimean_Tatar_Coast
    14.95868467 Italy_Emilia
    15.08634150 Albanian_Kosovo
    15.33470900 Turk_Macedonia

    On closing note, please do not drag me into these Greek and Albanian squabbles. Thanks, hope everyone is doing well with the COVID-19 lock downs.

    Dio Benedica tutti
    I have a match y-dna with Ciulla family originally from Mezzojuso in Pianna dei Albanesi. He was knight of the Demetrius Reres
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrio_Reres
    The first group of Albanian knight to settle in Italy in 1448.


    My line has expanded probably from Prevalitania Province well before 1500.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praevalitana





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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What I see is quite a bit of southern Italian male introgression.

    @Illyri,
    Ill see what I can find.
    According to the study Arberesh have R1b at 8% and J2a is not present there.

    Which Y-DNA is prevalent among South Italians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    According to the study Arberesh have R1b at 8% and J2a is not present there.

    Which Y-DNA is prevalent among South Italians?

    This group of Arbereshe have a lot less J2b, a lot less E-V13, more R1a M17, more I2a M223, and 13% E1b-not E-V13, while the Albanians have none.

    Now, this is one group. Things might be a little different in other groups. J2a might indeed show up. However we're looking at this set of data.

    It reinforces what we know from genealogies: there has been a lot of mixing, and it shows up not only in Italians who have some Arbereshe ancestry, but in those who still identify as Arbereshe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I have a match y-dna with Ciulla family originally from Mezzojuso in Pianna dei Albanesi.
    yDNA matches are a good and efficient way to answer the "question" raised in this thread. There are, I believe, some examples of Albanian-Sicilian subclades on yfull which could prove the link between Arbëreshë and modern Albanians. By the way, I also have a yDNA match in Palermo (although he did not confirm any Arbëreshë origin).

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    @Illyri,
    As I'm sure I don't need to tell you, data from self testing sites are not necessarily representative. Data from papers is unfortunately scarce in terms of subclade information.

    The papers are all gathered here as to ydna from various areas of Greece and from Albania as well.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...ions_of_Europe

    There's very little R1a1 in Albania, more in certain parts of Greece. I think it might be that the more south you go, the more Z93, although Cyprus has very little.

    Further discussion is for another thread.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This group of Arbereshe have a lot less J2b, a lot less E-V13, more R1a M17, more I2a M223, and 13% E1b-not E-V13, while the Albanians have none.

    Now, this is one group. Things might be a little different in other groups. J2a might indeed show up. However we're looking at this set of data.

    It reinforces what we know from genealogies: there has been a lot of mixing, and it shows up not only in Italians who have some Arbereshe ancestry, but in those who still identify as Arbereshe.
    The percentage of R-M417 in the Arbereshe is rather similar to that of Tosk Albanians who are ~9% R1a (28/310).

    Albanians from the Balkans do have some E1b that is negative for V13, though it is in very negligible amounts (~1%). I do agree that the massive increase in E1b (V13-) clusters is likely a result of Italian input given that these clusters have an increased frequency in Italy when compared to Albania or Kosovo.

    We also see an increase in R-L51+ clusters in the Arbereshe when compared to other Albanian groups, this too could be a result of more western input. Same goes for the increase in I2a-M223.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    blevins13: Good information, I think the Arbereshe from Pianna dei Albanesi in the paper cited maybe cluster a little closer with modern Albanians whereas the settlements in Contessa Entellina clustered closer to Modern Greeks and it appears close to the native Sicilians already there I guess given the long presence of Greek presence in Sicily which stretched that far West to nearby towns like Segesta (Greek theatre, one of the 4 major ones in Sicily is located there). I should have double checked the paper but in my case my closest distances other than Sicily are regions in Italy without any significant Albereshe presence, at least using Dodecad 12B updated and also Eurogenes K13 updated (which is a significant improvement to the original K13, in my opinion, at least in my own individual case).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    blevins13: Good information, I think the Arbereshe from Pianna dei Albanesi in the paper cited maybe cluster a little closer with modern Albanians whereas the settlements in Contessa Entellina clustered closer to Modern Greeks and it appears close to the native Sicilians already there I guess given the long presence of Greek presence in Sicily which stretched that far West to nearby towns like Segesta (Greek theatre, one of the 4 major ones in Sicily is located there). I should have double checked the paper but in my case my closest distances other than Sicily are regions in Italy without any significant Albereshe presence, at least using Dodecad 12B updated and also Eurogenes K13 updated (which is a significant improvement to the original K13, in my opinion, at least in my own individual case).
    The thing is that many Arbereshe who have Southern Italian or Sicilian admixture are bound to shift more towards certain Greek clusters, especially Greek Islanders, due to the fact that those populations themselves cluster closer to Greeks than Albanians. I think we need more Arbereshe auDNA in order to know for sure how they cluster and if there are major differences between settlements.

    By the way, do you know what downstream of I2a-P78 you belong to? There are a number of Albanians, both Ghegs and Tosks, who belong to P78>A427+. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the P78 in the Arbereshe is A427.

  20. #145
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
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    Arbereshe(pre 1500 Albanians) Y-DNA Vs (post 1500)Albanian Y-DNA. Big Differences!

    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    blevins13: Good information, I think the Arbereshe from Pianna dei Albanesi in the paper cited maybe cluster a little closer with modern Albanians whereas the settlements in Contessa Entellina clustered closer to Modern Greeks and it appears close to the native Sicilians already there I guess given the long presence of Greek presence in Sicily which stretched that far West to nearby towns like Segesta (Greek theatre, one of the 4 major ones in Sicily is located there). I should have double checked the paper but in my case my closest distances other than Sicily are regions in Italy without any significant Albereshe presence, at least using Dodecad 12B updated and also Eurogenes K13 updated (which is a significant improvement to the original K13, in my opinion, at least in my own individual case).
    In the Monasteries of Mezzojuso and Cantanzzaro you will find also the names of the families of the knight of Demetrius Reres... some of this names has not changed even today. These names very often show villages and places in Albania.

    Reres expedition (1444 -1448).
    Church Registers of Mezzojuso and Catanzaro:
    B: Barbati, Barci (Barçi), Barcia (Barçia), Bardusci (Bardushi), Barlezi (Barleci), Balla, Barresi,
    Barsetti, Bersi, Bidati, Bilotta, Blasco (Blasko), Boccula (Bokula), Borcì (Borçi o Borshi), Boria,
    Borgia (Borshi), Borgi (Borxhi), Borshi, Braillo, Branciti (Brançiti), Brunarello, Bue, Buba,
    Buccola (Bukola), Burrescia (Burreshia), Burnacasa (Burnakaza), Buschi (Buski ose Bushi).
    C: Cacossa (Kakoza), Cacozza (Kakoca), Coccuzza (Kokuca), Calvaj (Kalvaj), Calfi (Kalfi), Calidaj
    (Kalidaj), Camarda (Kamarda), Camera (Kamera), Camizzi (Kamixi), Candiota (Kandiota),
    Carci (Karçi), Carnesi (Kamezi), Chiara (Kiara), Cicco (Çiko), Cirillo,Ciuglia (Çiulia), Ciulla
    (Çiulla), Celejaro (Çelejaro), Comitascia (Komitashia), Conte (Konte), Costa (Kosta), Costantino
    (Kostantino), Crapisi (Krapizi), Crepsi (Krepsi), Crialesci (Krijaleshi), Criesci (Krieshi), Crisia
    (Krizia), Crispi (Krispi), Cucci (Kuçi), Cuccia (Kuçia), Curtichi (Kurtiki)
    D: Damiano, Despoti, Dorengrichi (Dorengriki), Djanì (Xhani), Dragoti
    F: Ferrante, Ferrara, Figlia (Filia), Foco (Foko), Franzi (Franci).
    G: Ganaci (Ganaçi), Glaviano, Glesci (Gleshi), Glioscia (Gloshia), Gori, Greko, Groppa, Gulemi,
    Golemi, Gugliotta (Gulota), Guzzetta (Guxeta).
    J: Jers, Jessi
    L: Lagresia (Lagrezia), Lala, Lecursìu (Lekurziu), Lesci (Leshi), Lescari (Leskari), Lojacono
    (Lojakono), Lopez, Luca (Luka), Luci (Luçi), Lugli (Luli).
    M: Macaluso (Makaluzo), Mancusi (Mankuzi), Manay (Manaj), Mandalà, Manesi, Manisi, Manisci
    (Manishi), Masi (Mazi), Matranga, Mezzaracchio (Mexarakio), Mirditi, Mauro, Miceli, Minisci
    (Minishi), Musacchia (Muzakia).
    P: Parrino, Parrococchia (Parrokokia), Pachini (Pakini), Petta, Plescia (Pleshia), Pirri, Pravatà,
    Proffera.
    R: Rabalaj, Rafsi, Reppa, Rende, Rennis, Rennes, Rjebalati, Rùbesi
    S: Scariani (Skariani), Sciglia (Skilia), Schirò (Skirò), Sochijpis (Sokjipis), Scurta (Shkurta),
    Schioza (Shkoza), Staffa, Standila, Stanizzo (Stanico), Spata, Stassi, Sugli (Suli).
    T: Teorga, Torga, Trajilla, Trapuzzano (Trapuxano), Thaminiti, Toja, Thana.
    V: Vartusa, Veschio (Veskio), Vonazzo (Vonaco), Vrena, Vuoccola (Vuokola).
    Z: Zacca (Zaka ose Xaka), Zaccheo (Zakeo), Zimbi, Zingana, Zenga etj.


    https://books.google.al/books?id=OdK...zojuso&f=false



    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  21. #146
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    In the Monasteries of Mezzojuso and Cantanzzaro you will find also the names of the families of the knight of Demetrius Reres... some of this names has not changed even today. These names very often show villages and places in Albania.

    Reres expedition (1444 -1448).
    Church Registers of Mezzojuso and Catanzaro:
    B: Barbati, Barci (Barçi), Barcia (Barçia), Bardusci (Bardushi), Barlezi (Barleci), Balla, Barresi,
    Barsetti, Bersi, Bidati, Bilotta, Blasco (Blasko), Boccula (Bokula), Borcì (Borçi o Borshi), Boria,
    Borgia (Borshi), Borgi (Borxhi), Borshi, Braillo, Branciti (Brançiti), Brunarello, Bue, Buba,
    Buccola (Bukola), Burrescia (Burreshia), Burnacasa (Burnakaza), Buschi (Buski ose Bushi).
    C: Cacossa (Kakoza), Cacozza (Kakoca), Coccuzza (Kokuca), Calvaj (Kalvaj), Calfi (Kalfi), Calidaj
    (Kalidaj), Camarda (Kamarda), Camera (Kamera), Camizzi (Kamixi), Candiota (Kandiota),
    Carci (Karçi), Carnesi (Kamezi), Chiara (Kiara), Cicco (Çiko), Cirillo,Ciuglia (Çiulia), Ciulla
    (Çiulla), Celejaro (Çelejaro), Comitascia (Komitashia), Conte (Konte), Costa (Kosta), Costantino
    (Kostantino), Crapisi (Krapizi), Crepsi (Krepsi), Crialesci (Krijaleshi), Criesci (Krieshi), Crisia
    (Krizia), Crispi (Krispi), Cucci (Kuçi), Cuccia (Kuçia), Curtichi (Kurtiki)
    D: Damiano, Despoti, Dorengrichi (Dorengriki), Djanì (Xhani), Dragoti
    F: Ferrante, Ferrara, Figlia (Filia), Foco (Foko), Franzi (Franci).
    G: Ganaci (Ganaçi), Glaviano, Glesci (Gleshi), Glioscia (Gloshia), Gori, Greko, Groppa, Gulemi,
    Golemi, Gugliotta (Gulota), Guzzetta (Guxeta).
    J: Jers, Jessi
    L: Lagresia (Lagrezia), Lala, Lecursìu (Lekurziu), Lesci (Leshi), Lescari (Leskari), Lojacono
    (Lojakono), Lopez, Luca (Luka), Luci (Luçi), Lugli (Luli).
    M: Macaluso (Makaluzo), Mancusi (Mankuzi), Manay (Manaj), Mandalà, Manesi, Manisi, Manisci
    (Manishi), Masi (Mazi), Matranga, Mezzaracchio (Mexarakio), Mirditi, Mauro, Miceli, Minisci
    (Minishi), Musacchia (Muzakia).
    P: Parrino, Parrococchia (Parrokokia), Pachini (Pakini), Petta, Plescia (Pleshia), Pirri, Pravatà,
    Proffera.
    R: Rabalaj, Rafsi, Reppa, Rende, Rennis, Rennes, Rjebalati, Rùbesi
    S: Scariani (Skariani), Sciglia (Skilia), Schirò (Skirò), Sochijpis (Sokjipis), Scurta (Shkurta),
    Schioza (Shkoza), Staffa, Standila, Stanizzo (Stanico), Spata, Stassi, Sugli (Suli).
    T: Teorga, Torga, Trajilla, Trapuzzano (Trapuxano), Thaminiti, Toja, Thana.
    V: Vartusa, Veschio (Veskio), Vonazzo (Vonaco), Vrena, Vuoccola (Vuokola).
    Z: Zacca (Zaka ose Xaka), Zaccheo (Zakeo), Zimbi, Zingana, Zenga etj.


    https://books.google.al/books?id=OdK...zojuso&f=false



    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    A guy from Cosenza who has origin from the Barci is also likely R-Z2705 (I believe that he is CTS9219+ on 23andme, not too sure). There is also a Cuccia from Piana degli Albanesi who is Z2705+.

  22. #147
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    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The thing is that many Arbereshe who have Southern Italian or Sicilian admixture are bound to shift more towards certain Greek clusters, especially Greek Islanders, due to the fact that those populations themselves cluster closer to Greeks than Albanians. I think we need more Arbereshe auDNA in order to know for sure how they cluster and if there are major differences between settlements.

    By the way, do you know what downstream of I2a-P78 you belong to? There are a number of Albanians, both Ghegs and Tosks, who belong to P78>A427+. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the P78 in the Arbereshe is A427.
    I don't. I have done extensive research on my Paternal ancestry and my family name is a common Italian name that is very heavy in Campania. It is an Italian surname that ends in "i' and my Paternal Great Grandfather's wife, from the same area in Trapani, also had a surname that ended in "i". So my Paternal Great Grandfather and his wife's family were from an area that has no Arbereshe community and I have been able to establish they were in the same area in Trapani going back to the 1700's. Doing Surname analysis, both family names are of Southern Italian Origin (my Paternal Great Grandfather's Father and Mother's family names). On my Fathers side I do have some family that came from Contessa Entellina, my Fathers maternal Grandmother's (my Great Grandmother) Father was born there (She was born in the USA in early 1890's) but she married someone who was born in a mountain town in Agrigento, (very common Italian type surname with Southern Italian origins and found in Sicily). And my Mothers Mother's Father (my Great Grandfather) was born in Palazzo Adriano, Palermo and his Grandfather came from Contessa Entelllina as well. He was baptized in the Byzantine Catholic Church there but my Mothers Father born in Palazzo Adriano as well, with very common Italian surname with roots from Latin (one of the most common in Sicily) was baptized in the Roman Church. His Mother also had a very Common name in Sicily, in fact a City in Siracusa has that name, and it is a Italic name. So my particular case is someone who is Southern Italian with some Arbereshe Admixture which in the case of the settlements where some my ancestors came from, seems to cluster with modern Greeks. Now just speaking for me, I don't know in terms of autosomal DNA how far it shifted me one way or the other. My particular instance I cluster close to Southern Italian mainland regions as well as Sicily and even some in Central and I have reasonable matches with modern Greeks. I know National Geographic's reference populations are not large, but my closest reference population there is Italian, which is represented by a sample from Central Italy-Tuscans. My 2nd close reference population is Modern Greeks. I don't know where National Geographic uses as a reference sample for Greeks.

    As for I-M223, that is interesting, looking at the Eupedia article that Maciamo published, that Y-DNA has hotspots in Western Sicily (Trapani/Palermo) but also Rome/Lazio and then again in Piedemonte. So I don't know exactly what the link is but from my reading and from what I gathered from National Geographic's report to me about I-M223, it appears to be a surviving lineage of Western Hunter Gathers post Ice-age, etc. and then sort of stayed in the Refugia areas (of which Italy and Southern Balkans would have been) and went back into other areas of Europe as Ice age receded.


    With respect to analyzing Sub-clades of I-M223, which company is the best to do that. I have done testing with Ancestry and National Geographic. Does 23 and Me provide that service?

    I would like to repeat that I am only offering my analysis here of my own DNA story and I do not mean in anyway to say it represents everyone in Sicily or Southern Italy that has some Arbereshe ancestry. I also surely do not want anything in my post to used to try to draw inferences about Sicilians, Calabrians or other Southern Italians with significant Arbereshe ancestry that have some Southern Italian or Sicilian admixture and how that impacts whether those individuals are genetically closer to modern Greeks or Modern Albanians. So please I hope my DNA story can shed some light on the issue and can be discussed in a respectful relative to both modern Greeks and Albanians, etc. There was a paper a few years ago that talked about a macro-region that included Italy (Sicily included) and a genetic link to the Southern Balkans (Central/South Italy) and Northern Italy and Northern Balkans. I think that is what its major conclusions were, so I am not sure what causes all these arguments between modern Greeks and Albanians and I again in closing, don't want to get drawn in to them nor my post to be used other than the context I laid out above.

    And full disclosure your post was well written, very respectful and I have no problem with it at all.

    Cheers.

  23. #148
    Regular Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    In the Monasteries of Mezzojuso and Cantanzzaro you will find also the names of the families of the knight of Demetrius Reres... some of this names has not changed even today. These names very often show villages and places in Albania.

    Reres expedition (1444 -1448).
    Church Registers of Mezzojuso and Catanzaro:
    B: Barbati, Barci (Barçi), Barcia (Barçia), Bardusci (Bardushi), Barlezi (Barleci), Balla, Barresi,
    Barsetti, Bersi, Bidati, Bilotta, Blasco (Blasko), Boccula (Bokula), Borcì (Borçi o Borshi), Boria,
    Borgia (Borshi), Borgi (Borxhi), Borshi, Braillo, Branciti (Brançiti), Brunarello, Bue, Buba,
    Buccola (Bukola), Burrescia (Burreshia), Burnacasa (Burnakaza), Buschi (Buski ose Bushi).
    C: Cacossa (Kakoza), Cacozza (Kakoca), Coccuzza (Kokuca), Calvaj (Kalvaj), Calfi (Kalfi), Calidaj
    (Kalidaj), Camarda (Kamarda), Camera (Kamera), Camizzi (Kamixi), Candiota (Kandiota),
    Carci (Karçi), Carnesi (Kamezi), Chiara (Kiara), Cicco (Çiko), Cirillo,Ciuglia (Çiulia), Ciulla
    (Çiulla), Celejaro (Çelejaro), Comitascia (Komitashia), Conte (Konte), Costa (Kosta), Costantino
    (Kostantino), Crapisi (Krapizi), Crepsi (Krepsi), Crialesci (Krijaleshi), Criesci (Krieshi), Crisia
    (Krizia), Crispi (Krispi), Cucci (Kuçi), Cuccia (Kuçia), Curtichi (Kurtiki)
    D: Damiano, Despoti, Dorengrichi (Dorengriki), Djanì (Xhani), Dragoti
    F: Ferrante, Ferrara, Figlia (Filia), Foco (Foko), Franzi (Franci).
    G: Ganaci (Ganaçi), Glaviano, Glesci (Gleshi), Glioscia (Gloshia), Gori, Greko, Groppa, Gulemi,
    Golemi, Gugliotta (Gulota), Guzzetta (Guxeta).
    J: Jers, Jessi
    L: Lagresia (Lagrezia), Lala, Lecursìu (Lekurziu), Lesci (Leshi), Lescari (Leskari), Lojacono
    (Lojakono), Lopez, Luca (Luka), Luci (Luçi), Lugli (Luli).
    M: Macaluso (Makaluzo), Mancusi (Mankuzi), Manay (Manaj), Mandalà, Manesi, Manisi, Manisci
    (Manishi), Masi (Mazi), Matranga, Mezzaracchio (Mexarakio), Mirditi, Mauro, Miceli, Minisci
    (Minishi), Musacchia (Muzakia).
    P: Parrino, Parrococchia (Parrokokia), Pachini (Pakini), Petta, Plescia (Pleshia), Pirri, Pravatà,
    Proffera.
    R: Rabalaj, Rafsi, Reppa, Rende, Rennis, Rennes, Rjebalati, Rùbesi
    S: Scariani (Skariani), Sciglia (Skilia), Schirò (Skirò), Sochijpis (Sokjipis), Scurta (Shkurta),
    Schioza (Shkoza), Staffa, Standila, Stanizzo (Stanico), Spata, Stassi, Sugli (Suli).
    T: Teorga, Torga, Trajilla, Trapuzzano (Trapuxano), Thaminiti, Toja, Thana.
    V: Vartusa, Veschio (Veskio), Vonazzo (Vonaco), Vrena, Vuoccola (Vuokola).
    Z: Zacca (Zaka ose Xaka), Zaccheo (Zakeo), Zimbi, Zingana, Zenga etj.


    https://books.google.al/books?id=OdK...zojuso&f=false



    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    Blevins13: Looking at those Church records, I see 3 names that pop up in my family tree. One of them is my Maternal Great Grandfather on her Mothers side and his wife's family name. On my Fathers side, my Fathers Maternal Grandmother's maiden name. Obviously I am not going to disclose those names but in my own personal instance, the names you listed are consistent with my own personal research and the fact that I documented my Maternal Grandmothers Father being baptized at the Byzantine Rite Catholic Church in Palazzo Adriano (Church of Maria SS Assunta, dates to 16th century). Across the Street is the Latin Rite Roman Catholic Church Church of Maria SS Del Lume, founded in 18th century, where my Mothers Father was baptized and his parents were Married. So there was a large influx of Roman Rite Sicilians who seem to have moved there in the 18th century and in Palazzo Adriano, the Arbereshe language is not spoken and hasn't been for years suggesting there the Arbereshe and native Sicilians just blended in, at least in my case on my Mothers side.

  24. #149
    Regular Member
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Gheg Albanian-Kelmendi clan(Joined) but with supposed origin from Montenegro
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    I don't. I have done extensive research on my Paternal ancestry and my family name is a common Italian name that is very heavy in Campania. It is an Italian surname that ends in "i' and my Paternal Great Grandfather's wife, from the same area in Trapani, also had a surname that ended in "i". So my Paternal Great Grandfather and his wife's family were from an area that has no Arbereshe community and I have been able to establish they were in the same area in Trapani going back to the 1700's. Doing Surname analysis, both family names are of Southern Italian Origin (my Paternal Great Grandfather's Father and Mother's family names). On my Fathers side I do have some family that came from Contessa Entellina, my Fathers maternal Grandmother's (my Great Grandmother) Father was born there (She was born in the USA in early 1890's) but she married someone who was born in a mountain town in Agrigento, (very common Italian type surname with Southern Italian origins and found in Sicily). And my Mothers Mother's Father (my Great Grandfather) was born in Palazzo Adriano, Palermo and his Grandfather came from Contessa Entelllina as well. He was baptized in the Byzantine Catholic Church there but my Mothers Father born in Palazzo Adriano as well, with very common Italian surname with roots from Latin (one of the most common in Sicily) was baptized in the Roman Church. His Mother also had a very Common name in Sicily, in fact a City in Siracusa has that name, and it is a Italic name. So my particular case is someone who is Southern Italian with some Arbereshe Admixture which in the case of the settlements where some my ancestors came from, seems to cluster with modern Greeks. Now just speaking for me, I don't know in terms of autosomal DNA how far it shifted me one way or the other. My particular instance I cluster close to Southern Italian mainland regions as well as Sicily and even some in Central and I have reasonable matches with modern Greeks. I know National Geographic's reference populations are not large, but my closest reference population there is Italian, which is represented by a sample from Central Italy-Tuscans. My 2nd close reference population is Modern Greeks. I don't know where National Geographic uses as a reference sample for Greeks.

    As for I-M223, that is interesting, looking at the Eupedia article that Maciamo published, that Y-DNA has hotspots in Western Sicily (Trapani/Palermo) but also Rome/Lazio and then again in Piedemonte. So I don't know exactly what the link is but from my reading and from what I gathered from National Geographic's report to me about I-M223, it appears to be a surviving lineage of Western Hunter Gathers post Ice-age, etc. and then sort of stayed in the Refugia areas (of which Italy and Southern Balkans would have been) and went back into other areas of Europe as Ice age receded.


    With respect to analyzing Sub-clades of I-M223, which company is the best to do that. I have done testing with Ancestry and National Geographic. Does 23 and Me provide that service?

    I would like to repeat that I am only offering my analysis here of my own DNA story and I do not mean in anyway to say it represents everyone in Sicily or Southern Italy that has some Arbereshe ancestry. I also surely do not want anything in my post to used to try to draw inferences about Sicilians, Calabrians or other Southern Italians with significant Arbereshe ancestry that have some Southern Italian or Sicilian admixture and how that impacts whether those individuals are genetically closer to modern Greeks or Modern Albanians. So please I hope my DNA story can shed some light on the issue and can be discussed in a respectful relative to both modern Greeks and Albanians, etc. There was a paper a few years ago that talked about a macro-region that included Italy (Sicily included) and a genetic link to the Southern Balkans (Central/South Italy) and Northern Italy and Northern Balkans. I think that is what its major conclusions were, so I am not sure what causes all these arguments between modern Greeks and Albanians and I again in closing, don't want to get drawn in to them nor my post to be used other than the context I laid out above.

    And full disclosure your post was well written, very respectful and I have no problem with it at all.

    Cheers.
    In regards to Y-DNA testing via 23andme, I personally would not recommend it. Their Y-DNA classifications are hit or miss since it all depends if they test for your specific SNP. Also, as a company they're more focused on auDNA. I would recommend testing via FTDNA (Y37, Y67 etc) or Yseq (I2 Superclade Panel for example) as these tests will pin-point your exact cluster and give a lot more information.

  25. #150
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    In regards to Y-DNA testing via 23andme, I personally would not recommend it. Their Y-DNA classifications are hit or miss since it all depends if they test for your specific SNP. Also, as a company they're more focused on auDNA. I would recommend testing via FTDNA (Y37, Y67 etc) or Yseq (I2 Superclade Panel for example) as these tests will pin-point your exact cluster and give a lot more information.
    Ok thanks, FTDNA (which I heard of) and Yseq, I will take a look at it. If I have further questions on this issue, I will contact you and we can move it to a thread specifically related to I-M223. Thanks again.

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