Arbereshe(pre 1500 Albanians) Y-DNA Vs (post 1500)Albanian Y-DNA. Big Differences!



As far as Arberesh are concerned they look like Italian shifted Tosk Albanians. Which make sense. All the other bullshit stuff Gheg invasion and other fantasy are low-level propaganda.

Stay on topic and clean up your language or you can join the others.
 
My experience with Arvanites in the old days and for Albanians from what I have read here is that they only bring women into the tribe and not men. So the Y-DNA of the Arbereshe should be pure Albanian descendant, right?
 
My experience with Arvanites in the old days and for Albanians from what I have read here is that they only bring women into the tribe and not men. So the Y-DNA of the Arbereshe should be pure Albanian descendant, right?
Arbereshe were respectively 1% of Sicily and no more than 3% of Calabria in 16th century. How pure do you expect them to be?
Most ancient Greek colonies of Italy came from Euboea and Corinth. And Attico-Boetia was the main center of ancient Greek culture.
And Attica, Boetia, Euboea and Corinth were majority Albanian in 18th/17th century who were settled there no eariler than 14th/15th century.
So much for your 3000 years old Spartan brotherhood with Italians.
 
Arbereshe were respectively 1% of Sicily and no more than 3% of Calabria in 16th century. How pure do you expect them to be?
Most ancient Greek colonies of Italy came from Euboea and Corinth. And Attico-Boetia was the main center of ancient Greek culture.
And Attica, Boetia, Euboea and Corinth were majority Albanian in 18th/17th century who were settled there no eariler than 14th/15th century.
So much for your 3000 years old Spartan brotherhood with Italians.

OK, so local Italian men were let into the Arbereshe tribes. Do we have a good idea of what the prevalent Y-DNA haplogroups of the locals were?

Why does talking with Albanians remind me of trying to talk with Trumpists? They always answer, "But Hillary...".
 
Arbereshe were respectively 1% of Sicily and no more than 3% of Calabria in 16th century. How pure do you expect them to be?
Most ancient Greek colonies of Italy came from Euboea and Corinth. And Attico-Boetia was the main center of ancient Greek culture.
And Attica, Boetia, Euboea and Corinth were majority Albanian in 18th/17th century who were settled there no eariler than 14th/15th century.
So much for your 3000 years old Spartan brotherhood with Italians.

Actually, "Euboeans founded the first colonies, Pithecussae and Cumae, about 750 BC, and subsequently Spartans settled at Tarentum; Achaeans at Metapontum, Sybaris, and Croton; Locrians at Locri Epizephyrii; and Chalcidians at Rhegium (Reggio di Calabria)."

There were others.

5bf257637e8f4.png


Gross exaggerations are not helpful.

Nobody gives a damn about how many Albanians were in Euboea and Corinth or anywhere else in terms of the Arbereshe.

So, you can join your friends for two weeks.
 
OK, so local Italian men were let into the Arbereshe tribes. Do we have a good idea of what the prevalent Y-DNA haplogroups of the locals were?

Why does talking with Albanians remind me of trying to talk with Trumpists? They always answer, "But Hillary...".

From my experience, it's more often that the Arbereshe melted into the surrounding community than that Italians were incorporated into the Arbereshe community. I've known people for 20 years whom I found out only recently had quite a bit of Arbereshe ancestry. They married out, men and women, changed religion etc. They identify as Sicilian, Calabrian, whatever.

If the yDna in those who still adhere to the customs, religious rites etc. is different from that of the Albanians in Albania, then they must indeed have incorporated Italian men, I suppose.
 
Between, you banning only Albanians like this is not appropriate.
 
I have a lot of Arberesh friends, one of whom has a Calabrian father (he died when he was a kid) and a Arberesh mother, he is a Albanian-speaker and identifies as Arberesh ...Now just imagine, if after some centuries someone does the y-dna test to his male descendants, how should they explain his typical 'non-Albanian' haplogroup ?! Also as historical curiosity a part of the Arberesh in Italy are with Arvanitic origin (Stradioti, Coronei etc) and not only !!https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.internazionale.it/scienza/2015/07/09/amp/italia-albanesi-arberesh
 
I have a lot of Arberesh friends, one of whom has a Calabrian father (he died when he was a kid) and a Arberesh mother, he is a Albanian-speaker and identifies as Arberesh ...Now just imagine, if after some centuries someone does the y-dna test to his male descendants, how should they explain his typical 'non-Albanian' haplogroup ?! Also as historical curiosity a part of the Arberesh in Italy are with Arvanitic origin (Stradioti, Coronei etc) and not only !!https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.internazionale.it/scienza/2015/07/09/amp/italia-albanesi-arberesh

From an eupedia thread.:

Very interesting results for haplogroups. This is what I got as far as the percentage of the most frequent haplogroups, all samples are on table S3:

Gheg Albanians:
E-V13: 38%
J2b: 25%
R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
I2a-xM26,M223: 3.3%
R1a-M17: 2.5%
I1-M253: 3.3%

Tosk Albanians:
E-V13: 29%
J2b: 12%
R1b-L51 xP311: 8%
R1b-M269 xL51: 6%
I2a-xM26,M223: 11.5%
I2a-M223: 5%
R1a-M17: 6%
I1-M253: 3.8%

Arbereshe Albanians (Southern Italy):
E-V13: 15%
J2b: 3%
R1b-L51 xP311: NONE
R1b-M269 xL51: 8%
I2a-xM26, M223: 10%
I2a-M223: 10%
R1a-M17: 10%
E1b-xV13: 13%
I1-M253: 5.3%

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31370-Y-DNA-of-Arbereshe-vs-Albanians-vs-Southern-Italians

Essentially, Arberesh like Tosk Albanians have higher Slavic/Vlach input through their Y-DNA than North Albanians. If you combine the Arberesh E-V13, it's 28%. It's their main Y-DNA.
 
Do you know the split for R1a, however? Non-Slavic R1a might be older in the Balkans as well as Greece, although I make no claims about the frequency.

I vaguely recall there's little Slavic R1a in Greece and not much R1a at all, but what exists is more often Z-93. Is that correct for Albania as well?

Perhaps it is not the right place to ask (since this thread is supposed to be about Arbereshë), but I found your question ("Is that correct for Albania as well?") interesting and would like to check and compare the data. Do you know/remember any scientific paper (or a thread) with detailed data about R1a in Greece ? I could just find a post from rafc on another thread saying this: "From the limited deeper phase there's 8,3% Z93, 25% from the fairly recent CTS11962, 8,3% from L784, 37,5% from CTS3402, 12,5% from CTS1211 (xCTS3402). A quick check with the FTDNA R1a project reveals that there also L1029/CTS11962 and CTS1211 represent the largest share of Greek samples".
 
Between, you banning only Albanians like this is not appropriate.

Guess you didn't notice the Greek who got banned, Not my problem if more of you piled on. You're on thin ice so by all means continue.
 
From an eupedia thread.:



Essentially, Arberesh like Tosk Albanians have higher Slavic/Vlach input through their Y-DNA than North Albanians. If you combine the Arberesh E-V13, it's 28%. It's their main Y-DNA.

What I see is quite a bit of southern Italian male introgression.

@Illyri,
Ill see what I can find.
 
Guess you didn't notice the Greek who got banned, Not my problem if more of you piled on. You're on thin ice so by all means continue.

Roger, Angelita. :p
 
Guess you didn't notice the Greek who got banned, Not my problem if more of you piled on. You're on thin ice so by all means continue.

There is nothing to continue here....this paper has been discussed before. This was only a Greek charade that you allowed here, who knows why? Now is time to shut it down not to ban Albanians.



Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
there is nothing to continue here....this paper has been discussed before. This was only a greek charade that you allowed here, who knows why? Now is time to shut it down not to ban albanians.



Sent from my iphone using eupedia forum

Then stop posting here!

My children got out of grade school a while ago. I'm in no mood to go back to "mommy mode" and police every post of every thread even tangentially related to the Balkans to see whether a Greek or an Albanian started the merry go round. If someone is out of line, REPORT the person rather than getting on board.

How the hell old are you people anyway?

The next person who posts an off topic comment here is also going to get banned. I'm not going to give you guys an easy way out by closing the thread.

FOLLOW the freaking orders.
 
Then stop posting here!

My children got out of grade school a while ago. I'm in no mood to go back to "mommy mode" and police every post of every thread even tangentially related to the Balkans to see whether a Greek or an Albanian started the merry go round. If someone is out of line, REPORT the person rather than getting on board.

How the hell old are you people anyway?

The next person who posts an off topic comment here is also going to get banned. I'm not going to give you guys an easy way out by closing the thread.

FOLLOW the freaking orders.

Blevins13/ Angela: I think this is an interesting thread. Let me say up front I can speak to the Arbereshe in Sicily directly. The town Contessa Entellina was historically an Elymian town and it sits in the Belice Valley in now Modern Palermo Province, many of my ancestors came from Trapani in the Belice Valley (about 25 KM). However, on my Fathers side, his Maternal Grandmother's (my Great Grandmother) father was from Contessa Entellina. My mothers Father was born in Palazzo Adriano, which is a town that was both Byzantine and Roman with respect to the Catholic Church. I have mentioned this before but in the Piazza as your facing it, to the right is the Byzantine-Greek Catholic Church and to the Left is the Roman. My Great Grandfather on my mothers side (her Mother's father) was baptized in the Byzantine-Greek Catholic Church in Palazzo Adriano. So I guess I am an example of an American of Sicilian ancestry who has some ancestors that have some connection to the Arbereshe, although I think mine sort of blended in with the locals. In addition my Maternal Great Grandfather I mentioned above ancestors come from Contessa Entellina as well, based on my own research and a cousin who has done the same research.

So looking at my own Distances, I seem to cluster closer with Greeks than Albanians, but Albanians in both model come in within my cutoff of 15. So consistent with the paper cited above, the Arbereshe from Contessa Entellina seem to closer to Greeks, but not that they are super far from Albanians. Now my results could be just mine or it could be similar for other people with 100% of their ancestry from Sicily whose ancestors come from the same regions around where mine come from. So I am only commenting on on this thread because it is something that is part of my own story. I tend to stay in my own lane (only post in forums with DNA studies on Italian DNA, or ancient Europeans, etc) and I also will post on the ancient Greeks since I get some Chroma matches on ancient Greeks from Mytrue ancestry and the well known historical connection between ancient Greece and Sicily and Southern Italy.

Anyway, I hope my own results can shed a partial light on the Arbereshe at least as it relates to those who settled in Contessa Entellina and Palazzo Adriano.

Eurogenes K13 updated (cutoff 15)

Distance to:PalermoTrapani
3.63130830West_Sicilian
4.27984813Molise
4.53094913Apulia
4.54467821Abruzzo
5.01440924Campania
5.30913364Sicily
5.36017724Basilicata
6.03359760Malta
6.04806581East_Sicilian
6.68697989Calabria
7.02694101Central_Greek
8.55354313Marche
8.61175360Lazio
8.68674277Greek_Andros_Island
9.16282162Greek_Western-Thrace
9.23201495Ashkenazi
9.66857280Umbria
9.72998972Moroccan_Jew
10.07475062Greek_Symi_Island
10.19252177Italian_Jewish
10.65898213Romagna
10.74883249Sephardic_Jewish
10.85722801Tuscan
10.87747213Algerian_Jewish
11.43605920GR_Peloponese
11.48721463Greek_Peloponnese
11.49051457Greek_Dodecanese
12.04027408Greek_Thessaly
12.07744178Greek_Chios
12.26214908FrenchCorsica
12.46806721Vlach_Central-Macedonia
12.64785357Turk_Crete
13.15686893Greek_Eastern-Macedonia
13.24787530Greek_Eastern-Thrace
13.65380533Albanian
13.71040845Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
13.88943483Tuscany
14.50232050Greek_Macedonia_Thrace
14.68938392Greek_Central-Macedonia
14.78912776Turk_Alexandroupoli
15.25711310Greek_Istanbul
15.32262053GR_Macedonia
15.36462495Emilia
15.39221264Kosovo_Albanian

Dodecad K12B (cutoff 15 rounded)

Distance to:PalermoTrapani
3.56228943Italy_Campania
3.83059103Italy_Abruzzo
4.03985458Italy_Sicily
5.85659507Italy_Calabria
6.30021809Italy_Apulia
7.04316676Italy_Marche
7.65791512Italy_Lazio
9.80278022Ashkenazi
9.98721683Tuscan_HGDP01169
10.34941544Ashkenazy_Jews
10.37221770Greek_Crete
10.45749014Italy_Romagna
10.84031826Greek
10.92670582Tuscan_HGDP01167
11.20844325Tuscan_HGDP01164
11.49819986Tuscan_HGDP01163
11.64560432Sephardic_Jews
11.83492290Tuscan_HGDP01162
12.36329244Tuscan_HGDP01166
12.49756776Tuscan_HGDP01161
12.53945374Morocco_Jews
12.69671611Tuscan_HGDP01168
12.70455178France_Corsica
13.19014973Italy_Tuscany
14.40640483Crimean_Tatar_Coast
14.95868467Italy_Emilia
15.08634150Albanian_Kosovo
15.33470900Turk_Macedonia

On closing note, please do not drag me into these Greek and Albanian squabbles. Thanks, hope everyone is doing well with the COVID-19 lock downs.

Dio Benedica tutti
 
Last edited:
Blevins13/ Angela: I think this is an interesting thread. Let me say up front I can speak to the Arbereshe in Sicily directly. The town Contessa Entellina was historically an Elymian town and it sits in the Belice Valley in now Modern Palermo Province, many of my ancestors came from Trapani in the Belice Valley (about 25 KM). However, on my Fathers side, his Maternal Grandmother's (my Great Grandmother) father was from Contessa Entellina. My mothers Father was born in Palazzo Adriano, which is a town that was both Byzantine and Roman with respect to the Catholic Church. I have mentioned this before but in the Piazza as your facing it, to the right is the Byzantine-Greek Catholic Church and to the Left is the Roman. My Great Grandfather on my mothers side (her Mother's father) was baptized in the Byzantine-Greek Catholic Church in Palazzo Adriano. So I guess I am an example of an American of Sicilian ancestry who has some ancestors that have some connection to the Arbereshe, although I think mine sort of blended in with the locals. In addition my Maternal Great Grandfather I mentioned above ancestors come from Contessa Entellina as well, based on my own research and a cousin who has done the same research.

So looking at my own Distances, I seem to cluster closer with Greeks than Albanians, but Albanians in both model come in within my cutoff of 15. So consistent with the paper cited above, the Arbereshe from Contessa Entellina seem to closer to Greeks, but not that they are super far from Albanians. Now my results could be just mine or it could be similar for other people with 100% of their ancestry from Sicily whose ancestors come from the same regions around where mine come from. So I am only commenting on on this thread because it is something that is part of my own story. I tend to stay in my own lane (only post in forums with DNA studies on Italian DNA, or ancient Europeans, etc) and I also will post on the ancient Greeks since I get some Chroma matches on ancient Greeks from Mytrue ancestry and the well known historical connection between ancient Greece and Sicily and Southern Italy.

Anyway, I hope my own results can shed a partial light on the Arbereshe at least as it relates to those who settled in Contessa Entellina and Palazzo Adriano.

Eurogenes K13 updated (cutoff 15)

Distance to:PalermoTrapani
3.63130830West_Sicilian
4.27984813Molise
4.53094913Apulia
4.54467821Abruzzo
5.01440924Campania
5.30913364Sicily
5.36017724Basilicata
6.03359760Malta
6.04806581East_Sicilian
6.68697989Calabria
7.02694101Central_Greek
8.55354313Marche
8.61175360Lazio
8.68674277Greek_Andros_Island
9.16282162Greek_Western-Thrace
9.23201495Ashkenazi
9.66857280Umbria
9.72998972Moroccan_Jew
10.07475062Greek_Symi_Island
10.19252177Italian_Jewish
10.65898213Romagna
10.74883249Sephardic_Jewish
10.85722801Tuscan
10.87747213Algerian_Jewish
11.43605920GR_Peloponese
11.48721463Greek_Peloponnese
11.49051457Greek_Dodecanese
12.04027408Greek_Thessaly
12.07744178Greek_Chios
12.26214908FrenchCorsica
12.46806721Vlach_Central-Macedonia
12.64785357Turk_Crete
13.15686893Greek_Eastern-Macedonia
13.24787530Greek_Eastern-Thrace
13.65380533Albanian
13.71040845Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
13.88943483Tuscany
14.50232050Greek_Macedonia_Thrace
14.68938392Greek_Central-Macedonia
14.78912776Turk_Alexandroupoli
15.25711310Greek_Istanbul
15.32262053GR_Macedonia
15.36462495Emilia
15.39221264Kosovo_Albanian

Dodecad K12B (cutoff 15 rounded)

Distance to:PalermoTrapani
3.56228943Italy_Campania
3.83059103Italy_Abruzzo
4.03985458Italy_Sicily
5.85659507Italy_Calabria
6.30021809Italy_Apulia
7.04316676Italy_Marche
7.65791512Italy_Lazio
9.80278022Ashkenazi
9.98721683Tuscan_HGDP01169
10.34941544Ashkenazy_Jews
10.37221770Greek_Crete
10.45749014Italy_Romagna
10.84031826Greek
10.92670582Tuscan_HGDP01167
11.20844325Tuscan_HGDP01164
11.49819986Tuscan_HGDP01163
11.64560432Sephardic_Jews
11.83492290Tuscan_HGDP01162
12.36329244Tuscan_HGDP01166
12.49756776Tuscan_HGDP01161
12.53945374Morocco_Jews
12.69671611Tuscan_HGDP01168
12.70455178France_Corsica
13.19014973Italy_Tuscany
14.40640483Crimean_Tatar_Coast
14.95868467Italy_Emilia
15.08634150Albanian_Kosovo
15.33470900Turk_Macedonia

On closing note, please do not drag me into these Greek and Albanian squabbles. Thanks, hope everyone is doing well with the COVID-19 lock downs.

Dio Benedica tutti

I have a match y-dna with Ciulla family originally from Mezzojuso in Pianna dei Albanesi. He was knight of the Demetrius Reres
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrio_Reres
The first group of Albanian knight to settle in Italy in 1448.


My line has expanded probably from Prevalitania Province well before 1500.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praevalitana





Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
What I see is quite a bit of southern Italian male introgression.

@Illyri,
Ill see what I can find.

According to the study Arberesh have R1b at 8% and J2a is not present there.

Which Y-DNA is prevalent among South Italians?
 
According to the study Arberesh have R1b at 8% and J2a is not present there.

Which Y-DNA is prevalent among South Italians?


This group of Arbereshe have a lot less J2b, a lot less E-V13, more R1a M17, more I2a M223, and 13% E1b-not E-V13, while the Albanians have none.

Now, this is one group. Things might be a little different in other groups. J2a might indeed show up. However we're looking at this set of data.

It reinforces what we know from genealogies: there has been a lot of mixing, and it shows up not only in Italians who have some Arbereshe ancestry, but in those who still identify as Arbereshe.
 
I have a match y-dna with Ciulla family originally from Mezzojuso in Pianna dei Albanesi.

yDNA matches are a good and efficient way to answer the "question" raised in this thread. There are, I believe, some examples of Albanian-Sicilian subclades on yfull which could prove the link between Arbëreshë and modern Albanians. By the way, I also have a yDNA match in Palermo (although he did not confirm any Arbëreshë origin).
 

This thread has been viewed 50760 times.

Back
Top