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Thread: Arbereshe(pre 1500 Albanians) Y-DNA Vs (post 1500)Albanian Y-DNA. Big Differences!

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    Arbereshe(pre 1500 Albanians) Y-DNA Vs (post 1500)Albanian Y-DNA. Big Differences!

    Chart from a study comparing Arbereshe Y-Dna from Calabria and Sicily to that of Albanian Tosk and Gheg Y-DNA.
    (some categories are total of a haplogroup or clade)
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...lian_Arbereshe




























    Y-SNP ARBERESHE

    ALBANIANS












    Total Calabria Sicely Total TOSK GHEG


























    N
    150 106 44 223 104 119
    E-M35








    E-M35 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)

    M78 E-M78 ~ E1b1b1a







    E-M78 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 1 (0.45) 0 (0) 1 (0.84)


    EM78-V12






    E-V12 3 (2.0) 3 (2.83) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)


    EM78-V13






    E-V13 20 (13.33) 18 (16.98) 2 (4.55) 75 (33.63) 30 (28.85) 45 (37.82)


    EM78-V22






    E-V22 1 (0.67) 1 (0.94) 0 (0) 1 (0.45) 1 (0.96) 0 (0)

    E-M81
    .





    E-M81 1 (0.67) 0 (0) 1 (2.27) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)

    E-M123







    E-M123 16 (10.67) 8 (7.55) 8 (18.18) 2 (0.9) 1 (0.96) 1 (0.84)
    F-M89 F-M89







    F-M89 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 4 (1.79) 3 (2.88) 1 (0.84)
    G-M201








    G-M201 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)

    P15 G-P15 ~ G2a






    G-P15 8 (5.33) 7 (6.60) 1 (2.27) 6 (2.69) 4 (3.85) 2 (1.68)


    G-P15* ~ G2a*






    G-P15* 6 (4.00) 5 (4.72) 1 (2.27) 2 (0.9) 1 (0.96) 1 (0.84)


    G-P16 ~ G2a1a






    G-P16 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)


    G-M286 ~ G2a2a






    G-M286 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)


    G-U8 ~ G2a2b






    G-U8 2 (1.33) 2 (1.89) 0 (0) 4 (1.79) 3 (2.88) 1 (0.84)



    U13





    G-U13 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)

    M253 ~






    I-M253 8 (5.33) 6 (5.66) 2 (4.55) 8 (3.59) 4 (3.85) 4 (3.36)


    M253* ~ I1*






    I-M253* 4 (2.67) 2 (1.89) 2 (4.55) 7 (3.14) 4 (3.85) 3 (2.52)
    I-M170
    M227 ~ I1b*






    I-M227 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)


    L22 ~ I1a1b1






    I-L22 4 (2.67) 4 (3.77) 0 (0) 1 (0.45) 0 (0) 1 (0.84)

    I2 M438/P215







    I-P215 15 (10.00) 6 (5.66) 9 (20.45) 16 (7.17) 12 (11.54) 4 (3.36)


    M26 ~ I2a1a1






    I-M26 3 (2.00) 2 (1.89) 1 (2.27) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)


    M223 ~ I2a2a






    I-M223 15 (10.00) 15 (14.15) 0 (0) 5 (2.24) 5 (4.81) 0 (0)
    J-P209 J-M267 ~ J1 M267






    J-M267 3 (2.00) 3 (2.83) 0 (0) 5 (2.24) 2 (1.92) 3 (2.52)

    J-M172 ~ J2 M172 M172 ~ J2





    J-M172 3 (2.00) 3 (2.83) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)



    M410 ~ J2a J2a




    J-M410 4 (2.67) 2 (1.89) 2 (4.55) 5 (2.24) 4 (3.85) 1 (0.84)




    J2a*




    J-M410* 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 1 (0.45) 1 (0.96) 0 (0)




    L27




    J-L27 4 (2.67) 2 (1.89) 2 (4.55) 4 (1.79) 3 (2.88) 1 (0.84)





    M67 ~ J2a1



    J-M67 5 (3.33) 1 (0.94) 4 (9.09) 1 (0.45) 0 (0) 1 (0.84)






    M92


    J-M92 1 (0.67) 1 (0.94) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)



    M12 ~ J2b





    J-M12 4 (2.67) 4 (3.77) 0 (0) 42 (18.83) 12 (11.54) 30 (25.21)
    K-M9








    K-M9 2 (1.33) 1 (0.94) 1 (2.27) 2 (0.9) 2 (1.92) 0 (0)

    P-M45







    P-M45 2 (1.33) 0 (0) 2 (4.55) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)
    P-M45 R-M207







    R-M207 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)


    M173 ~ R1 R1





    R-M173 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)



    R1a1





    R-SRY10831.2 15 (10.00) 10 (9.43) 5 (11.36) 9 (4.04) 6 (5.77) 3 (2.52)




    M17




    R-M17 15 (10) 10 (9.43) 5 (11.36) 9 (4.04) 6 (5.77) 3 (2.52)



    M343 ~ R1b





    R-M343 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)




    M18




    R-M18 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)




    M269 ~ R1b1a1a2




    R-M269 12 (8.00) 9 (8.49) 3 (6.82) 33 (14.80) 14 (13.46) 19 (15.97)





    *



    R-M269* 12 (8.00) 9 (8.49) 3 (6.82) 11 (4.93) 6 (5.77) 5 (4.21)





    L51 ~ R1b1a1a2a1



    R-L51 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 22 (9.87) 8 (7.69) 14 (11.76)






    P311


    R-P311 2 (1.33) 0 (0) 2 (4.55) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)







    U106

    R-U106 1 (0.67) 0 (0) 1 (2.27) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)







    P312

    R-P312 1 (0.67) 1 (0.94) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)








    SRY2627
    R-SRY2627 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)








    U152
    R-U152 1 (0.67) 1 (0.94) 0 (0) 2 (0.90) 1 (0.96) 1 (0.84)









    * R-U152* 1 (0.67) 1 (0.94) 0 (0) 2 (0.9) 1 (0.96) 1 (0.84)









    M126 M126 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)









    M160 M160 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0)









    L2 R-L2 4 (2.67) 4 (3.77) 0 (0) 5 (2.24) 2 (1.92) 3 (2.52)








    L21
    R-L21 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 1 (0.45) 1 (0.96) 0 (0)

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    We already have a theard for this.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The only thread it came up while searching for Arbereshe, was one from 10 years ago.
    This study is 2-3 years old and more detailed.Shows very graphically that modern Albanians weren't living in the country before 1500, and have little in common with the Albanians living in the country before 1500.
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    The only thread it came up while searching for Arbereshe, was one from 10 years ago.
    This study is 2-3 years old and more detailed.Shows very graphically that modern Albanians weren't living in the country before 1500, and have little in common with the Albanians living in the country before 1500.
    .
    The Y-DNA of Arbereshe has changed because they are heavily mixed Italians.
    Autosomally they cluster close with Albanians but are are more shifted in direction of South Italians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    The only thread it came up while searching for Arbereshe, was one from 10 years ago.
    This study is 2-3 years old and more detailed.Shows very graphically that modern Albanians weren't living in the country before 1500, and have little in common with the Albanians living in the country before 1500.
    .
    So genetic dissimilarity between a Balkan population and their supposed relatives in Italy means that population consists of recent migrants. Genius logic! Too bad you did not bother reading the abstract: "The estimated proportions of genetic admixture confirm the tight relationship of Calabrian Arbereshe with modern Albanian populations, in accordance with linguistic hypotheses."

    Don't worry though, many of those authors wrote another paper on this exact topic and they did find some dissimilarity: "Patterns of IBD-sharing directly reconnect Albanian-speaking Arbereshe with a recent Balkan-source origin, while Greek-speaking communities of Southern Italy cluster with their Italian-speaking neighbours".

    This thread is just another obvious t/rolling attempt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    The only thread it came up while searching for Arbereshe, was one from 10 years ago.
    Shows very graphically that modern Albanians weren't living in the country before 1500, and have little in common with the Albanians living in the country before 1500.
    .
    So the true Albanians left to Italy (among others) before 1500 and were replaced after 1500 ? By whom ? Are you serious ? Have you read the paper before posting ? Isn't it much more rational that the small group of Arbëresh intermixed to some extent with the local populations (or simply absorbed other local minorities) ?
    Just for an example, I was in Sicily last year and met a guy in Contessa d'Entellina who presented himself as blood Sicilian. However, his wife was arbëresh and he could speak Albanian remarkably good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mals View Post
    So genetic dissimilarity between a Balkan population and their supposed relatives in Italy means that population consists of recent migrants. Genius logic! Too bad you did not bother reading the abstract: "The estimated proportions of genetic admixture confirm the tight relationship of Calabrian Arbereshe with modern Albanian populations, in accordance with linguistic hypotheses."

    Don't worry though, many of those authors wrote another paper on this exact topic and they did find some dissimilarity: "Patterns of IBD-sharing directly reconnect Albanian-speaking Arbereshe with a recent Balkan-source origin, while Greek-speaking communities of Southern Italy cluster with their Italian-speaking neighbours".
    This thread is just another obvious t/rolling attempt
    .
    That refers to the partial compatibility of ARbereshe with South Albanians, which of course are now a mixed population of Ghegs Troops settled by the ottomans with the local Greek and Greekoarvanite populations. Their reported numbers are as you would expect them to be. Somewhere between Greek populations and Ghegs.
    Ghegs on the other hand are from another planet, although they too must be substantially different from the Ghegs of 1500.
    Whether Ghegs were originally Albanian Speaking or even from the general area of west central-Balkans are also valid questions, based on these findings.
    Previously linguists and historians suggested the same, but now genetics seem to add validity to those theories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyri View Post
    So the true Albanians left to Italy (among others) before 1500 and were replaced after 1500 ? By whom ? Are you serious ? Have you read the paper before posting ? Isn't it much more rational that the small group of Arbëresh intermixed to some extent with the local populations (or simply absorbed other local minorities) ?
    Just for an example, I was in Sicily last year and met a guy in Contessa d'Entellina who presented himself as blood Sicilian. However, his wife was arbëresh and he could speak Albanian remarkably good.
    That they left en mass is a historical fact.
    We are speaking about few tens of thousands of refugees. The population of Albania at the time wasn't much bigger than that.
    Slaughters and slavery durring and in the aftermath of the Ottoman conquest, added to the depopulation of Albania. Post conquest Albania was pretty much a wasteland. What was left behind, merged with the Gheg Colonists(voluntarily or not). That the Ottomans stationed troops in the region it is also a fact. Ghegs gangs of converts were used by Ottomans during the conquest o Albanian itself. Few thousands of Gheg militia/gangs(and their families and slaves), was all that was needed to repopulate the Region so the modern population to have descended from them. Gheg population of Kosovo at the time wasn't much more than 20 000(if that) either, yet the 2 million modern Kosovars(and Fyromian Albanians) sprung from them. Same occurred to south Albania, although in that case the surrounding population was different than the paleobalkanians of Kosovo/Fyrom/Montenegro so their genetics diversified accordingly. There were intact Greek and arvanite populations in the (remote) mountains around south Albania, and those populations were the genetic pool the ruling military/political Albanian class was drawing genetics from to diversify their own(via slavery / forced marriages / islamizations/ child harvesting/slave soldiers etc).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    That they left en mass is a historical fact.
    Arbereshë also left "en mass" from Morea (Peloponese). They still sing a beautiful song about it in Albanian.
    But I guess the scenario was different in Greece for some unknown reason...
    As for the rest of your story, could you please provide some historical sources for your other facts ? I have no knowledge of Gheg colonisation to the South after the ottoman conquest. Regarding depopulation, the TMRCA of most of Albanian clades does not fit with a bottleneck in 1500 AD.
    What is exactly the "arvanite population" in South Albania ?
    And finally about your theory regarding the diversification / genetic pool, isn't it more likely that two (or three if you prefer) populations living next to each other for centuries present some similarity due to intermarriages (which go both ways and do not always need to be forced, etc) ?

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    This has got to be one of the dumbest and most illogical threads I have come across. It seriously doesn't take a genius to realise why they are different to modern day Albanians.

    It's 2020 and we still have people who believe in nationalistic bs from the 19th and 20th centuries (lol at "Greekoarvanites"), shows the level of intelligence of some posters.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    This has got to be one of the dumbest and most illogical threads I have come across. It seriously doesn't take a genius to realise why they are different to modern day Albanians.

    It's 2020 and we still have people who believe in nationalistic bs from the 19th and 20th centuries (lol at "Greekoarvanites"), shows the level of intelligence of some posters.
    Stop obfuscating with snooty remarks, and answer the following questions.
    How were the tested Arbereshe (in Calabria)Diluted in the Local population when they live in solid Arbereshe settlements created by arbereshe.
    The truth is in the numbers.
    Arbereshe report 10% E-m123 Y-DNA lineages.Albanians less than 1%.The Neighboring to Arbereshe Italians;a quarter of the rate of Arbereshe.
    Show me a model by which Arbereshe start from North Albania with near zero E-m123 lineages,like in North Albanians, Arrive in Italy ,gain it from the locals via intermixing, and then multiply it by 4 times?
    Explain me also the model by which Arbereshe start from North Albania with 20% L51 lineages, and they become zero in Italy.
    Or how they started with 25% j2b and they ended up with only 3% in South Italy.
    I can go on with the rest of the haplogroups too, but the above are biggest eye openers.The differences arent just big, they are monstrous. Cataclysmic. Incompatible. While we are there, answer this too. Why Arbereshe speak Tosk, and Northern Albanians the Gheg dialect, although the first historically resided in the same geography as the later?Even if we assume they coincided(some how), why are they so monstrously different?
    As for the Greekoarvanites of south Albania.. Who is really in Denial?
    Attachment 11925

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Stop obfuscating with snooty remarks, and answer the following questions.
    How were the tested Arbereshe (in Calabria)Diluted in the Local population when they live in solid Arbereshe settlements created by arbereshe.
    The truth is in the numbers.
    Arbereshe report 10% E-m123 Y-DNA lineages.Albanians less than 1%.The Neighboring to Arbereshe Italians;a quarter of the rate of Arbereshe.
    Show me a model by which Arbereshe start from North Albania with near zero E-m123 lineages,like in North Albanians, Arrive in Italy ,gain it from the locals via intermixing, and then multiply it by 4 times?
    Explain me also the model by which Arbereshe start from North Albania with 20% L51 lineages, and they become zero in Italy.
    Or how they started with 25% j2b and they ended up with only 3% in South Italy.
    I can go on with the rest of the haplogroups too, but the above are biggest eye openers.The differences arent just big, they are monstrous. Cataclysmic. Incompatible. While we are there, answer this too. Why Arbereshe speak Tosk, and Northern Albanians the Gheg dialect, although the first historically resided in the same geography as the later?Even if we assume they coincided(some how), why are they so monstrously different?
    As for the Greekoarvanites of south Albania.. Who is really in Denial?
    Attachment 11925
    It's just frustrating to deal with people such as yourself. I mean are you seriously trying to make the claim that the Arbereshe and modern day Albanians are distinct in terms of ethnic origin? Do you not understand that we literally speak the same language?

    We know for sure that the Arbereshe received more western European input than the Albanians from the Balkans. This is clear from the results which show an elevated percentage of haplogroups such as R-L2 and I-M223. Sure, they may have had their own settlements but groups still intermix with their neighbours, especially when they have been near each other for centuries. It's very naive and delusional to believe that intermixture never occurred. As for E-M123, this group reaches higher frequencies in Italy than Albania and so also suggests Italian input. You also have a complete disregard for things such as population bottlenecks and founder effects. These effect Y-DNA percentages greatly and have had major effects on the Y-DNA percentages of modern day Albanians. Read more about these things before acting as if you're the authority on a topic.

    Honestly what are you on about Tosk and Gheg thing? Form understandable sentences please. Ghegs and Tosks did not live in the same exact region, they were already two distinct dialectal groups prior to the Slavic migrations into the region. As is shown by the fact that Latin loans (especially those of Christian origin) have undergone rhotacism in Tosk dialects and haven't in Gheg dialects. The Arbereshe are primarily descended from Tosk-speaking Albanians, this also explains the fact that they only have 3% J2b, Tosk Albanians for comparison are 6.8% J2b.

    The Arvanites were not ethnic Greeks, this is a basic fact. I wonder why the Greeks would even bother calling them "Arvanites" (a distinct exonym) if they were indeed fellow ethnic Greeks, let alone the Ottoman records and census that shows typical Albanian anthroponyms (e.g. Mazarak, Gjika, Bardhi etc) in Arvanite villages....

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    The creek is clearly doing what creeks do all the time.

    Trying to make Arbereshe something distinct from Albanians, of course is nothing new in his country.
    He doesn't understand that having less J2b doesn't mean that this population wasn't Albanians but that they probably descended from South Albania where even today there is lot less J2b than North Albania but that doesn't make the less Albanian but simply reflects the Tosk-Gheg difference.
    It's probably really hard to get over the fact that these people's language wasn't creek but nevertheless we still gonna claim them and pretend they were something different than Albanians.

    But instead of looking in Arbereshe's dna the creek should explain how all the ancient Greek dna till now come up to be J2a while in Epirus and Peloponnese today E-V13 is dominant?

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    Ancient Greek DNA is largely an unknown. There is no reason to assume that E-V13 wasn't present among ancient Greeks, even on the contrary. It might have been less numerous in some places or of different clades regionally, but who can say a lot about ancient Greek percentages? How many samples were taken until now? How the population movements were taking place, in which direction at which time? There is not enough data available to conclude anything like that. But yes, the Albanian descended people in Italy showing gene drift and being shifted in an Italian direction rather than being "the Albanian originals". There is no rule to that. There are people which lived side by side mixing within the first generations and others having little to no gene flow after thousands of years. Only genetic testing can make sure what was happening and in which direction the gene flow was going.

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    @Riverman
    I guess you replied to my post although you haven't quoted me.
    Actually we have lot more DNA of ancient Greeks than we do for any kind of other ancient Balkan people. For example, the territory of modern Albania and North Macedonia is largely unexplored.
    We have samples from pre-Greek Minoans. They are mostly J2a and G.
    We have Mycenaean BA Greek samples as well as Classical Greek samples from the Iberian colony of Empuries and they all turned out J2a.
    If I am going to assume instead of simply relying on the facts than I would assume that there was some R1b among the proto Greeks as well.
    But I prefer to keep to the facts and the facts say that the only confirmed ancient sample downstream of E-V13 today is from Scythian context burial located very close the mouth of Danube.
    The paper:https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/10/eaat4457
    In the paper there were some terrible mistakes like the one where the sample in question was predicted as R1b. However after a close look in the sample's BAM file it was clear that the sample belonged to: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC44169/
    The Scythians weren't homogeneous people but a confederation that followed some similar cultural practices. Thus the autosomal DNA of the sample in question (scy197) confirms that he was of a local origin and most probably a Getae sample, people who were of Thracian stock.
    Another mistake in the paper is that they couldn't predict the age of the sample correctly. There was a confusion because the sample was identified as a Scythian however the sample's age was estimated to around 2100 BC, way too old for it to be a Scythian.
    But not only that, we have another sample from Bulgaria, low quality however and because of that it was predicted only as E-Z1919 but it might very well be E-V13 if we had a better quality sample: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Thracian-E-V13
    Furthermore, from the paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4757772/
    The paper was funded by the British academy.
    The genetic contribution of a given source within a defined historical scenario has often been estimated using the number of chromosomes assigned to given haplogroups assumed to have a specific geographic/ethnic origin. In relation to the GC of the Mediterranean, the lineage defined by the E-V13 marker has been used to estimate the Hellenic contribution to the Sicilian gene pool.14 By assuming that all E-V13 chromosomes have a Hellenic origin, authors estimated a contribution of ~37% to the population in Sicily. The reconstruction of a STR-based network linking the Sicilian modal haplotype and its one-step neighbouring haplotypes provided a TMRCA of about 2380 years before present, with a 95% confidence ranging between 675 and 6940 years ago. More recent contributions and differential origins are expected to affect such estimates, but attempts to mitigate the impact of these phenomena were not implemented.
    In this study we highlighted that, when alternative sources were taken in consideration, E-V13 did not show any specificity as a marker of the Hellenic contribution. The signal that we found using the full set of haplotypes within a limited range of mutational distance disappeared when only E-V13 unbounded haplotypes are considered, becoming even significant for other non-Greek sources when a filter for recent gene flow was applied. The contribution of E-V13 from Corinthia and Euboea, in fact, reaches its peak well before the 8–12 mutational steps range (Figure 4), while in this range and samples it showed minor relative frequency.
    These findings suggest a poor association between the Y haplogroup E-V13 and the East-to-West GC migratory waves. The effects of more recent gene flow or sampling bias, may have masked the original E-V13 signal from Greece. At any rate, our results caution against the use of specific lineage-based approaches to test for hypothesised population contributions and underline the need for a more targeted approach to explain the occurrence of given haplotypes within a population, providing tests of alternative hypotheses, a wide spectrum of reference samples and mutation-limited inference methodology.
    In other words, the haplotypes of E-V13 around the world and the former Greek colonies don't show founder effect and specific correlation with the ancient Greeks. Most of the haplotypes are very old, dating to EBA and MBA and predate the Greek colonization or show a preference for a more recent gene flow of non Greek origin.
    First it was wrongly assumed that E-V13 is a marker if the ancient Greeks by some earlier papers because this haplogroup can be found in Cyprus as well as West Anatolia.
    However, as is the case with the islands most often and Cyprus being no exception, many times were depopulated and repopulated again.
    West Anatolia and the Greek islands are no exception.
    The source population was a Roman population not a Greek one.
    Everyone with a little knowledge in history knows what's the difference between the two and what kind of implications could have had for the so called 'modern Greeks' whose roots can be traced to the Roman Empire and it's later offshoot, the Eastern part called simply Romania!

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Granted I can only go by what happened to the Arvanites villages in Eastern Thrace but there was not a lot of intermixing between them and the Greek speakers around them. I grew up in a village that was a 90% Arvanites. After the 60's and 70s there has been a lot more intermixing.

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    Aspar: Greeks seem to have been organised into different tribes early on. Minoans are not Greeks, there is not too much of Mycenaeans, especially yDNA, the colony might be in no way representative and from classical Greeks the sampling is poor too. That sampling for other historical people is even worse doesn't make it any better.

    If I am going to assume instead of simply relying on the facts than I would assume that there was some R1b among the proto Greeks as well.
    That's extremely likely.

    E-V13 today is from Scythian context burial
    With possible Thraco-Cimmerian relations, I read about that. Obviously E-V13 re-expanded from Late Bronze Age on, but also in the Hallstatt Iron Age and especially within Eastern Hallstatt. Among Greeks the most likely closer relationship is with Dorians. The relationship to Illyrians/Proto-Albanians is old and not just the result of more recent immigration. Of course only more ancient and modern samples can solve this.

    In Italy and especially Southern Italy it is very unlikely that E-V13 had just one source, but multiple ones coming from different directions like Iberia, Central Europe and South Eastern Europe mainly but not exclusively. Some came with (especially Dorian) Greeks with very high probability. Empúries was a Phocaean (Ionian) colony by the way.

    Concerning Greeks, if talking about Proto-Greeks I think we will see an influx of R1b, E-V13 and even R1a among others from the North eventually. Its just that there was no population replacement, so no complete change with surviving local lineages (related to Neolithics, Balkan CA and Minoans).

    Bigsnake: There are also neighbouring people which mix for some generations and then stop it. You can't conclude from one stage to another. Good neighbours with bride exchange might become bitter enemies in the future. Like if some male bands take local women, they mix obviously, but that doesn't mean that their mixed offspring allows its daughters to mix or proceed like that. They might just form a new community on their own which constitute a people apart.

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    Parapolitikos, your topic is idiotic. Obviously Arberesh are mixed a bit with the Italians. Even Arberesh E-V13 is bit rare in Albanians. Most common is E-Y172393, might be E-A18844 of Montenegrin Mataruga clan (related to Mataranga) or Albanian E-FT146201.

    About Greek E-V13, well nobody knows them better than me. there are some obvious Arvanite ancestry Greeks of clades such as Z38456 and FGC11450 but also there are few Albanian E-V13's of Greek ancestry. The former is more common ofc. But no way huge percentage of Greek V13 is Arvanite. You can see that through R-Z2705 percent in Greeks, 2-3 %, so Arvanite might be 5 % tops, likely less as Arvanites seem packed with R-Z2705 thus far. Still a significant percentage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    You can see that through R-Z2705 percent in Greeks, 2-3 %, so Arvanite might be 5 % tops, likely less as Arvanites seem packed with R-Z2705 thus far. Still a significant percentage.
    If Greeks have 2-3% R-Z2705 and Arvanites are 5% of those Greeks, you are claiming Arvanites have 50% R-Z2705, which is impossible.

    It is more likely that Arvanite R-Z2705 is similar to Albainans ~15%. So if Greeks have 2-3% R-Z2705 and we assume it all comes from Arvanites, then Arvanites are ~15-20% of Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mals View Post
    It is more likely that Arvanite R-Z2705 is similar to Albainans ~15%. So if Greeks have 2-3% R-Z2705 and we assume it all comes from Arvanites, then Arvanites are ~15-20% of Greeks.
    No, I meant 5 % (speaking of E-V13), that still might be 1/4 of Greek E-V13! Likely less but some are hard to identify. Arvanites seem very low on J-L283, expected as Tosks have low J2b2, and Arvanites were Tosk. Personally I think 6-7 % of Greeks might be of Arvanite ancestry. Yes I think in Arvanites R-Z2705 was very strong, stronger than in Albanians. Certainly when you deduct abit from the J-L283 it will strengthen the R-Z2705. There are no clear rules, Arvanites were likely a portion of Albanians from some not all regions, it's not that you can claim Arvanites were descended of all subgroups of Tosks.

    You see in Arberesh E-Y172393 dominates and this cluster is not common in Albanians.

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    it's not that you can claim Arvanites were descended of all subgroups of Tosks.
    That's right! There is practically no expansion of that kind which is fully representative of its source population. That's what genetic drift is about. Are Kosovo Albanians truly representative for the whole of Albania? Not at all.

    Its even possible that whole branches expanded from a source in which they disappeared later. So you can't conclude from a modern sample either way. That's the lesson from ancient DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Aspar: Greeks seem to have been organised into different tribes early on. Minoans are not Greeks, there is not too much of Mycenaeans, especially yDNA, the colony might be in no way representative and from classical Greeks the sampling is poor too. That sampling for other historical people is even worse doesn't make it any better.
    Agree
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman
    That's extremely likely.
    Agree as well

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman
    With possible Thraco-Cimmerian relations, I read about that. Obviously E-V13 re-expanded from Late Bronze Age on, but also in the Hallstatt Iron Age and especially within Eastern Hallstatt. Among Greeks the most likely closer relationship is with Dorians. The relationship to Illyrians/Proto-Albanians is old and not just the result of more recent immigration. Of course only more ancient and modern samples can solve this.

    In Italy and especially Southern Italy it is very unlikely that E-V13 had just one source, but multiple ones coming from different directions like Iberia, Central Europe and South Eastern Europe mainly but not exclusively. Some came with (especially Dorian) Greeks with very high probability. Empúries was a Phocaean (Ionian) colony by the way.

    Concerning Greeks, if talking about Proto-Greeks I think we will see an influx of R1b, E-V13 and even R1a among others from the North eventually. Its just that there was no population replacement, so no complete change with surviving local lineages (related to Neolithics, Balkan CA and Minoans).
    Ok, the Dorians are an enigmatic puzzle.
    I agree that E-V13 in Greece has much to do with post BA collapse and since those Dorians are only mention after this post BA collapse then probably your observation is correct.
    One such subclade very diverse and probably the most common among the Greeks is: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z17264/

    BUT, there is something puzzling here. As far as I know, the earliest form of Greek is the Linear B in relation to the BA people whose name became popular among the amateur community as 'Mycenaeans'.
    Thus these people are the first or proto Greeks.

    Then my question is:

    If the Dorians are related to the Hallstatt expansion and if we assume that Z17264 among the Greeks is a Dorian legacy(judging by it's modern distribution and by the distribution and diversity of it's parent clade CTS9320, it most certainly is), how are they connected with the proto-Greeks in any possible way, be it language or anything else?

    It's obvious that the so called Mycenaeans were formed by a large part of the Minoans whose culture and people were impacted by a small group of Indo-Europeans who imposed themselves and their language to the native people. Something similar happened with the Baden culture, the Globular-Amphora culture or the Trypillian culture. Thus with the mixing of those two elements the Greek language and people were born.
    But this culture and amalgamation didn't extended to all the Balkans and certainly not to the areas that were under Hallstatt influence later on.

    In other words, are we sure that those so called Dorians that appeared out of nowhere after the post BA collapse were originally Greek speakers after all?

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    Aspar: I don't know all the answers and don't pretend I do, but my real argument was that nobody, probably with the exception of some scientists with unpublished samples, can know for sure right now.

    "Thus these people are the first or proto Greeks."

    I don't agree with this. They are the first known Greeks in recorded history. But they are not "Proto-Greeks". Where Proto-Greeks came from is unknown, but they might have been newcomers from the steppe with chariots or steppe influenced Balkan people or a mix of two of these. This might also relate to their relationship with Illyrians, with Proto-Greeks having an influence they don't had or vice versa.

    "If the Dorians are related to the Hallstatt expansion and if we assume that Z17264 among the Greeks is a Dorian legacy(judging by it's modern distribution and by the distribution and diversity of it's parent clade CTS9320, it most certainly is), how are they connected with the proto-Greeks in any possible way, be it language or anything else?"

    My best guess is that Dorians had a similar position to the Mycenaeans as the Macedonians had to classical Greeks and their poleis. They lived as tribals on the fringe of the Bronze Age Greek civilisation, but had the big advantage of getting into contact with the new technology (iron) from the relative North first, from people related to Illyrians/Eastern Hallstatt.

    If the Dorians wouldn't have been Greek speakers, it would have had a clearly noticeable effect well into historical times. They might, however, not all being Greek speaking. Probably mixture took place while they got influenced from the North, by the iron makers, so they assimilated e.g. Illyrians. That's possible. But when they appear in the records and from what we know, however they came up as an ethnicity, they were Greek.
    And don't forget Greek-related people lived North of the Mycenaeans all the time. My assumption is that we deal with successive immigrations from the North, which pushed the preceding Carpatho-Balkan people South. From North to South: Slavs -> Germanics -> Thraco-Cimmerians -> Illyrians -> Greeks -> Anatolians. That succession should reflect in the autosomal and yDNA, with more local Balkan lineages in the older layer and a correspondingly higher autosomal share as well. The only big and significant movement within the historical time frame in the other direction were the Romans and later Vlachs/Romanians and Ottomans/Turks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    If the Dorians are related to the Hallstatt expansion and if we assume that Z17264 among the Greeks is a Dorian legacy(judging by it's modern distribution and by the distribution and diversity of it's parent clade CTS9320, it most certainly is),
    Most certainly not. There is no Dorian case for E-Z17264 as of now:


    YF15987 Greek Zincidere, Talas/Kayseri - Turkey (so Macedo-Ionian likely)


    Another BY4281+ from FTDNA unrelated to others: Drama or Thessaloniki


    Greek FTDNA samples who cluster with Bulgarian YF16967
    Constantinople, Turkey
    Siros island


    Greek samples from scientific studies (with regional information) who cluster with Bulgarian YF16967
    14 Macedonia
    85 Macedonia
    88 Macedonia
    140 Macedonia
    Xal25 Euboiea
    3 Western Greece
    3 Central Macedonia
    3 Ionian Islands
    94 East Macedonia and Thrace
    F76 Phocaea, Asia Minor
    F91 Phocaea, Asia Minor


    Bulgarian YF64995's surname is Greek, his most distant ancestor was called "Atanas the Greek"



    YF62936 is a Turk from Samsun, Milesian (Ionian) colony.
    YF02039 Westerner is 4/37 with a Greek who might be related to him (no SNP confirmation yet).


    No, E-Z17264 does not appear to be Dorian at all. It looks Macedo-Ionian


    ERR1347668, unknown region, sample is also Greek but he is negative to all subclades below, he doesn't have many SNP's but he has great coverage so he is basal E-Z17264.


    Overall we might even say that almost the entire Z17264 is reliably ancient Greek.


    Some of clusters such as dys439=9 appear in Serbs, Bosniaks, Albanians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Hungarians, even Western Ukraine; these are some Greeks assimilated by the Vlachs.

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    Who might be Spartan? I think it is laughable and unacceptable how Greeks are not working more to ensure the survival of Tsakonian language.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-S2978/

    Greek from Filiatra, Greek from Mystras and most distant haplotype might be Greek from Sparta.

    So this clade might be Spartan, either Helots or Spartans, I'd pick Spartans. Parent clades are to the North in the Balkans. One even in Russia.

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