Arbereshe(pre 1500 Albanians) Y-DNA Vs (post 1500)Albanian Y-DNA. Big Differences!

it's not that you can claim Arvanites were descended of all subgroups of Tosks.

That's right! There is practically no expansion of that kind which is fully representative of its source population. That's what genetic drift is about. Are Kosovo Albanians truly representative for the whole of Albania? Not at all.

Its even possible that whole branches expanded from a source in which they disappeared later. So you can't conclude from a modern sample either way. That's the lesson from ancient DNA.
 
Aspar: Greeks seem to have been organised into different tribes early on. Minoans are not Greeks, there is not too much of Mycenaeans, especially yDNA, the colony might be in no way representative and from classical Greeks the sampling is poor too. That sampling for other historical people is even worse doesn't make it any better.

Agree
Riverman said:
That's extremely likely.

Agree as well

Riverman said:
With possible Thraco-Cimmerian relations, I read about that. Obviously E-V13 re-expanded from Late Bronze Age on, but also in the Hallstatt Iron Age and especially within Eastern Hallstatt. Among Greeks the most likely closer relationship is with Dorians. The relationship to Illyrians/Proto-Albanians is old and not just the result of more recent immigration. Of course only more ancient and modern samples can solve this.

In Italy and especially Southern Italy it is very unlikely that E-V13 had just one source, but multiple ones coming from different directions like Iberia, Central Europe and South Eastern Europe mainly but not exclusively. Some came with (especially Dorian) Greeks with very high probability. Empúries was a Phocaean (Ionian) colony by the way.

Concerning Greeks, if talking about Proto-Greeks I think we will see an influx of R1b, E-V13 and even R1a among others from the North eventually. Its just that there was no population replacement, so no complete change with surviving local lineages (related to Neolithics, Balkan CA and Minoans).

Ok, the Dorians are an enigmatic puzzle.
I agree that E-V13 in Greece has much to do with post BA collapse and since those Dorians are only mention after this post BA collapse then probably your observation is correct.
One such subclade very diverse and probably the most common among the Greeks is: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z17264/

BUT, there is something puzzling here. As far as I know, the earliest form of Greek is the Linear B in relation to the BA people whose name became popular among the amateur community as 'Mycenaeans'.
Thus these people are the first or proto Greeks.

Then my question is:

If the Dorians are related to the Hallstatt expansion and if we assume that Z17264 among the Greeks is a Dorian legacy(judging by it's modern distribution and by the distribution and diversity of it's parent clade CTS9320, it most certainly is), how are they connected with the proto-Greeks in any possible way, be it language or anything else?

It's obvious that the so called Mycenaeans were formed by a large part of the Minoans whose culture and people were impacted by a small group of Indo-Europeans who imposed themselves and their language to the native people. Something similar happened with the Baden culture, the Globular-Amphora culture or the Trypillian culture. Thus with the mixing of those two elements the Greek language and people were born.
But this culture and amalgamation didn't extended to all the Balkans and certainly not to the areas that were under Hallstatt influence later on.

In other words, are we sure that those so called Dorians that appeared out of nowhere after the post BA collapse were originally Greek speakers after all?
 
Aspar: I don't know all the answers and don't pretend I do, but my real argument was that nobody, probably with the exception of some scientists with unpublished samples, can know for sure right now.

"Thus these people are the first or proto Greeks."

I don't agree with this. They are the first known Greeks in recorded history. But they are not "Proto-Greeks". Where Proto-Greeks came from is unknown, but they might have been newcomers from the steppe with chariots or steppe influenced Balkan people or a mix of two of these. This might also relate to their relationship with Illyrians, with Proto-Greeks having an influence they don't had or vice versa.

"If the Dorians are related to the Hallstatt expansion and if we assume that Z17264 among the Greeks is a Dorian legacy(judging by it's modern distribution and by the distribution and diversity of it's parent clade CTS9320, it most certainly is), how are they connected with the proto-Greeks in any possible way, be it language or anything else?"

My best guess is that Dorians had a similar position to the Mycenaeans as the Macedonians had to classical Greeks and their poleis. They lived as tribals on the fringe of the Bronze Age Greek civilisation, but had the big advantage of getting into contact with the new technology (iron) from the relative North first, from people related to Illyrians/Eastern Hallstatt.

If the Dorians wouldn't have been Greek speakers, it would have had a clearly noticeable effect well into historical times. They might, however, not all being Greek speaking. Probably mixture took place while they got influenced from the North, by the iron makers, so they assimilated e.g. Illyrians. That's possible. But when they appear in the records and from what we know, however they came up as an ethnicity, they were Greek.
And don't forget Greek-related people lived North of the Mycenaeans all the time. My assumption is that we deal with successive immigrations from the North, which pushed the preceding Carpatho-Balkan people South. From North to South: Slavs -> Germanics -> Thraco-Cimmerians -> Illyrians -> Greeks -> Anatolians. That succession should reflect in the autosomal and yDNA, with more local Balkan lineages in the older layer and a correspondingly higher autosomal share as well. The only big and significant movement within the historical time frame in the other direction were the Romans and later Vlachs/Romanians and Ottomans/Turks.
 
If the Dorians are related to the Hallstatt expansion and if we assume that Z17264 among the Greeks is a Dorian legacy(judging by it's modern distribution and by the distribution and diversity of it's parent clade CTS9320, it most certainly is),

Most certainly not. There is no Dorian case for E-Z17264 as of now:


YF15987 Greek Zincidere, Talas/Kayseri - Turkey (so Macedo-Ionian likely)


Another BY4281+ from FTDNA unrelated to others: Drama or Thessaloniki


Greek FTDNA samples who cluster with Bulgarian YF16967
Constantinople, Turkey
Siros island


Greek samples from scientific studies (with regional information) who cluster with Bulgarian YF16967
14 Macedonia
85 Macedonia
88 Macedonia
140 Macedonia
Xal25 Euboiea
3 Western Greece
3 Central Macedonia
3 Ionian Islands
94 East Macedonia and Thrace
F76 Phocaea, Asia Minor
F91 Phocaea, Asia Minor


Bulgarian YF64995's surname is Greek, his most distant ancestor was called "Atanas the Greek"



YF62936 is a Turk from Samsun, Milesian (Ionian) colony.
YF02039 Westerner is 4/37 with a Greek who might be related to him (no SNP confirmation yet).


No, E-Z17264 does not appear to be Dorian at all. It looks Macedo-Ionian


ERR1347668, unknown region, sample is also Greek but he is negative to all subclades below, he doesn't have many SNP's but he has great coverage so he is basal E-Z17264.


Overall we might even say that almost the entire Z17264 is reliably ancient Greek.


Some of clusters such as dys439=9 appear in Serbs, Bosniaks, Albanians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Hungarians, even Western Ukraine; these are some Greeks assimilated by the Vlachs.
 
Who might be Spartan? I think it is laughable and unacceptable how Greeks are not working more to ensure the survival of Tsakonian language.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-S2978/

Greek from Filiatra, Greek from Mystras and most distant haplotype might be Greek from Sparta.

So this clade might be Spartan, either Helots or Spartans, I'd pick Spartans. Parent clades are to the North in the Balkans. One even in Russia.
 
Who might be Spartan? I think it is laughable and unacceptable how Greeks are not working more to ensure the survival of Tsakonian language.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-S2978/

Greek from Filiatra, Greek from Mystras and most distant haplotype might be Greek from Sparta.

So this clade might be Spartan, either Helots or Spartans, I'd pick Spartans. Parent clades are to the North in the Balkans. One even in Russia.

@Aspurg and all: This clade is interesting. On the one hand two old, largely unrelated samples from the same Russian oblast, on the other hand there are minorities in the district. So we don't know their exact origin and ethnic affiliation. However, what is interesting in a lot of debates about E-V13 clades is, that so many appeared in the large sample from Cagliari in Sardinia. Its like almost every major clade of E-V13 made it to Sardinia, probably at roughly the same time and most likely not alone, but with other newcomers. What do you think about that?
Of course there are not too many places with such large and good sampling as Sardinia, so this might be sampling bias, but still, I think its remarkable and might point to something. Yet I'm not sure how to interpret it.

A lot of the root samples are from Italy and especially Sardinia/Cagliari for example if looking at Z5018 and its clades:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5018/

Considering the size of Sardinia and Cagliari in particular, even a fairly large sample makes me wonder.
 
@ Riverman

There are no two Russian samples there.:) Both are the same person (YFull head), who is Tatar. Sardinian sample is huge, but I guess many are LBA Collapse relatd, in this instance I'd guess some Greek colonist who ended up there. And in this instance Tatar might be too. Upstream there is another Russian who is prety distant, he might be some other trail.

I've read views of archaeologists that Girla Mare culture (SW Romania) was proto-Dorian, there we have huge diversity of Y3183 clades, there is some distant Z16661 in Bulgaria. So this is where Laconian E-S2978 might fit.

Y145455 might fit as Sea People related. You see one distant Italian, 2 distant clades from the Middle East. E-S7461>BY5022 is though the clade which seems very likely Philistine, so many Middle Eastern/Levantine subclades all in LBA, MBA range from their cousins cannot possibly be an accident combined with the fact that this clade is diverse in the area of Strymon river (formerly Palaistinos).

I think pre Bronze Age Collapse situation does not reflect IA situation. I think you had various Greek groups in subsequently Thraco-Illyrian areas, especially I suspect that all E-Z16659 people spoke Greek, that is this SNP spoke some Greek (likely Dorian) regardless of where some of their descendants ended up being. Those who migrated to the South preserved their original language. There are multiple Greek L241's but no BigY's. Maybe some is Arvanite but I doubt most are. Likely some distant clades.

Even Albanian language is likely pre-Collapse language. Whereas Urnfield Illyrians spoke another language. If Albanian is pre collapse Illyrian proper it was likely strongly associated with J-L283, while Urnfield Illyrians would have had next to 0 % of J-L283.
 
@ Riverman

There are no two Russian samples there.:) Both are the same person (YFull head), who is Tatar.

Ok, you know, I didn't know that YFull makes such mistakes.

I've read views of archaeologists that Girla Mare culture (SW Romania) was proto-Dorian, there we have huge diversity of Y3183 clades, there is some distant Z16661 in Bulgaria. So this is where Laconian E-S2978 might fit.

Interesting you mention Gârla Mare culture, because this and related cultural groups might have been of great importance for the spread of E-V13 imho. Unfortunately I haven't seen all too much about it so far. Like in other fields too, Romania has some very interesting prehistoric and historic monuments and heritage, of which not that much is known in the West - or I just missed it.

"I think pre Bronze Age Collapse situation does not reflect IA situation. I think you had various Greek groups in subsequently Thraco-Illyrian areas, especially I suspect that all E-Z16659 people spoke Greek, that is this SNP spoke some Greek (likely Dorian) regardless of where some of their descendants ended up being. Those who migrated to the South preserved their original language."

That's possible.

Even Albanian language is likely pre-Collapse language. Whereas Urnfield Illyrians spoke another language. If Albanian is pre collapse Illyrian proper it was likely strongly associated with J-L283, while Urnfield Illyrians would have had next to 0 % of J-L283.

What do you mean with "pre collapse Illyrian proper"? I mean we have Eastern Hallstatt which might have been, at least in part, Illyrian and we have later, historical Illyrians. I think most of the J-L283 got assimilated in the Balkans early on and spoke different Indo-European dialects from then on. Illyrians just got a larger portion. Interestingly, J-L283 basal clades are present in the Cagliari sample too by the way and like E-V13 (E-CTS1273) was assimilated by IE speaking people very early on, probably even on the steppe itself. I think Albanian derives from Illyrian or a language very closely related to Thracian-Illyrian, for that time frame that would be interchangeable for the pre/post collapse question.
 
Ok, you know, I didn't know that YFull makes such mistakes.

Not sure why this isn't fixed yet, you see when you click on "i" that the samples are same. Also u have info there if sample has no reading on some downstream SNP (marked with *).


What do you mean with "pre collapse Illyrian proper"? I mean we have Eastern Hallstatt which might have been, at least in part, Illyrian and we have later, historical Illyrians. I think most of the J-L283 got assimilated in the Balkans early on and spoke different Indo-European dialects from then on. Illyrians just got a larger portion. Interestingly, J-L283 basal clades are present in the Cagliari sample too by the way and like E-V13 (E-CTS1273) was assimilated by IE speaking people very early on, probably even on the steppe itself. I think Albanian derives from Illyrian or a language very closely related to Thracian-Illyrian, for that time frame that would be interchangeable for the pre/post collapse question.

Well the dominant theory is that J-L283 joined PIE North of Caucasus and migrated to Western Balkans. Culture called Posušje/Dinara culture with J-L283 find seems associated with this hg, so do some other related cultures. Sardinian clades are older but you see the oldest one also seems connected with Albania and above Central Europe. There is likely some Sea People/Sherden connection. Either J-L283 is PIE (North of Balack Sea route) or it's proto-Etruscan (South of Black Sea route), I would have expected Etruscan to be far more widespread in latter case than in Italy so no..

E-V13 still seems originally connected to Cetina culture. L618+, V13 is still found in Albanians, there is Dalmatian L618+ sofrom the perspective on Neolithic presence. E-Y37092 looks alot like Cetina. Above E-Y30976 is found in Tatars, and Armenian but this Armenian is from Istanbul. But Cetina culture largely migrated Eastwards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#Illyrii_proprie_dicti

These "proprie dicti" might correspond well to pre-Hallstat population, J-L283 who were found there before, and ofc their find is from MBA as their TMRCA suggest earlier presence there.

Pannonians were linguistically different with different ("Hallstat") influences. In fact rules of Albanian development do not allow possibility of any "Scerdilaidas, Scodra" being connected to Albanian directly, because of early sk>h shift in Albanian.

This is most apparent in burial, Hallastat Illyrians were practicing cremation, J-L283 inhumation. Check out this clade for a Hallstat Illyrian R-U152, clade we have another one in Herzegovina, thousands of years away from their cousins etc. Lots of these in Western Balkans. And some of these V13 especially E-Z16988/CTS9320/L241 too clades seem to fit there.
 
I don't know how accurate this anthropogenic map of the "Dinaric" type is, but it seems to correlate with the IndoEuropean.eu map of EV13. Probably a coincidence and incorrect data, but if correct, maybe EV13 and Dinaricism are connected?

ef4d5c7fa6ae368b59c0e4e6811ff6a7.png


haplogroup-e1b-v13.png
 
Not sure why this isn't fixed yet, you see when you click on "i" that the samples are same. Also u have info there if sample has no reading on some downstream SNP (marked with *).

Ok, thanks for the info, will double check for suspicious samples (y)

Well the dominant theory is that J-L283 joined PIE North of Caucasus and migrated to Western Balkans. Culture called Posušje/Dinara culture with J-L283 find seems associated with this hg, so do some other related cultures. Sardinian clades are older but you see the oldest one also seems connected with Albania and above Central Europe. There is likely some Sea People/Sherden connection. Either J-L283 is PIE (North of Balack Sea route) or it's proto-Etruscan (South of Black Sea route), I would have expected Etruscan to be far more widespread in latter case than in Italy so no..

I too think it came from the steppe and was present among PIE. Probably just some founder effect.

E-V13 still seems originally connected to Cetina culture. L618+, V13 is still found in Albanians, there is Dalmatian L618+ sofrom the perspective on Neolithic presence. E-Y37092 looks alot like Cetina. Above E-Y30976 is found in Tatars, and Armenian but this Armenian is from Istanbul. But Cetina culture largely migrated Eastwards.

I think its quite likely that Cetina was rich in E-V13, but I'm not that sure about its origin, the survival among steppe influenced people on the whole and whether its just about local survival like some speculate. Probably most of the surviving lineages came from the Carpathian region and simply migrated with steppe people after being assimilated. A lot of such movements might have happened below the current sampling radar, because HG E was, especially in the Northern regions, never in the majority of any people.

Check out this clade for a Hallstat Illyrian R-U152, clade we have another one in Herzegovina, thousands of years away from their cousins etc. Lots of these in Western Balkans. And some of these V13 especially E-Z16988/CTS9320/L241 too clades seem to fit there.

Once again, at the root of the Italian R-Z70 we get a sample from: Sardinia, Cagliari. I think some R1b and E-V13 clades came in together to Italy and Sardinia. Its remarkable that we have some HG E-Bell Beakers and Cetina too has clear cultural relations to Bell Beakers.

@Johane Derite:
I don't know how accurate this anthropogenic map of the "Dinaric" type is, but it seems to correlate with the IndoEuropean.eu map of EV13. Probably a coincidence and incorrect data, but if correct, maybe EV13 and Dinaricism are connected?

Its just a coincidence and there is no direct correlation at all, but in some places the survival of pre-Germanic and pre-Slavic population elements in general (autosomal percentages). The earliest and clearest correlation in Europe is with Bell Beakers and the map is wrong. I would speculate about a minority element especially in Southern Bell Beakers of E-V13, but that's not correlated to their phenotype. At the time of the Bell Beakers R1b would have been correlated the best with this phenotype. Like R-V88 "hijacked" one phenotype after another to survive and spread, yDNA has very little to do with physical traits at all. I wouldn't say nothing, but nothing clearly "race related".
 
The creek is clearly doing what creeks do all the time.

Trying to make Arbereshe something distinct from Albanians, of course is nothing new in his country.
He doesn't understand that having less J2b doesn't mean that this population wasn't Albanians but that they probably descended from South Albania where even today there is lot less J2b than North Albania but that doesn't make the less Albanian but simply reflects the Tosk-Gheg difference.
I dont need to do anything the numbers speaks for themselves. South Albanians are mixed too. A mixture of Gheg muslims that settled on the region post 1500 AD , with local Greek and Arvanites.
Ottomans settled gheg gangs all over the place.Even in Greece. If Kolokotronis, the warlord father of the leader of the Greek revolution, hadnt made a 30 feet pyramid with heads of the 20 000 Turkoalbanian thugs that the Turks settled in Peloponese to spread Islam and control the region, today their descendants would have been too in the hundreds of thousands. That said their Genetics wouldnt have been identical with the genetics of North Albania, but something in between those and those of local Peloponneseans. The Turkish census of 1897 reports that the Vilayet of Iskorda , which corresponds to modern day North Albania, had a population bellow 100 000.Catholics were under-counted ,and were probably the majority of the population of Vilayet,but today they are 20%(if you correct for immigration since 1991). Similar demographic upsetting occurred in South Albania, then wholly part of the Vilayet of Yanya, where Gheg muslim colonists, descending from Ottoman garrisons and military units,slowly demographically overwhelmed local Albanian and Greek Orthodox. The population then of South Albania was little more than 300 000, and most were Christians.Today Christians are 25%(if that ) Thus the genetic profiles of the regions adapted accordingly to the different growth rates of the different religious communities that had different origins. Autosomally might be more similar, but the Y-dna differences still linger. Until there is a comparison between the Y-dna of the Muslims of South Albania (that have heavy ancestry from Gheg colonists and muhajirs from the Balkan wars) with the Christians of region, you cant speak of South Albanian profile, as it has been distorted in the last 2-3 centuries from the higher demographic growth of Muslim colonists.
It's probably really hard to get over the fact that these people's language wasn't creek but nevewrtheless we still gonna claim them and pretend they were something different than Albanians
Or it could be the other way around. Arbereshe might be Albanian in origins,as their genetic profile corresponds to that of the other Balkan nations, but the genetic and linguistic evidence suggest that Gheg Albanians:
a) Could have recent origins, as recent as the middle ages, from outside of the region as there is no genetic continuity with any of the near by populations.
b) Their language/dialect wasn't native to North Albania, but transplanted there,as it is substantially different from Arbereshe which was spoken in the same region today inhabited by Ghegs. It also has no Greek influences, in-spite being in the proximity of Byzantine strongholds,and in the Greek linguistic zone of influence.
c) they cant have recent common origins with Arbereshe, as they are genetically very different from Arbereshe.
What ever small genetic similarities they might have, are probably are due to incorporating Arbereshes remnants into the Gheg tribes that resettled in the region.
But instead of looking in Arbereshe's dna the creek should explain how all the ancient Greek dna till now come up to be J2a while in Epirus and Peloponnese today E-V13 is dominant?
E-v13 is less than 30% in Peloponnese. J2a is as high as in the rest of the Greek Regions(very low in Ghegs), while J2b is the lowest in Greece(1/8th than that of ghegs). G2a is at similar rates as in the rest of Greece(also near absent in Ghegs).
So..
 
E-v13 is less than 30% in Peloponnese. J2a is as high as in the rest of the Greek Regions(very low in Ghegs), while J2b is the lowest in Greece(1/8th than that of ghegs). G2a is at similar rates as in the rest of Greece(also near absent in Ghegs).
So..
No J2a is only high in Crete, in Peloponesse it has been estimated around 15% on contray J2b in Peloponnese is around 9% which is more than the half of J2b in Kosovo Albanian (17%).
 
No J2a is only high in Crete, in Peloponesse it has been estimated around 15% on contray J2b in Peloponnese is around 9% which is more than the half of J2b in Kosovo Albanian (17%).

???????????
 
I dont need to do anything the numbers speaks for themselves. South Albanians are mixed too. A mixture of Gheg muslims that settled on the region post 1500 AD , with local Greek and Arvanites.
Ottomans settled gheg gangs all over the place.Even in Greece. If Kolokotronis, the warlord father of the leader of the Greek revolution, hadnt made a 30 feet pyramid with heads of the 20 000 Turkoalbanian thugs that the Turks settled in Peloponese to spread Islam and control the region, today their descendants would have been too in the hundreds of thousands. That said their Genetics wouldnt have been identical with the genetics of North Albania, but something in between those and those of local Peloponneseans. The Turkish census of 1897 reports that the Vilayet of Iskorda , which corresponds to modern day North Albania, had a population bellow 100 000.Catholics were under-counted ,and were probably the majority of the population of Vilayet,but today they are 20%(if you correct for immigration since 1991). Similar demographic upsetting occurred in South Albania, then wholly part of the Vilayet of Yanya, where Gheg muslim colonists, descending from Ottoman garrisons and military units,slowly demographically overwhelmed local Albanian and Greek Orthodox. The population then of South Albania was little more than 300 000, and most were Christians.Today Christians are 25%(if that ) Thus the genetic profiles of the regions adapted accordingly to the different growth rates of the different religious communities that had different origins. Autosomally might be more similar, but the Y-dna differences still linger. Until there is a comparison between the Y-dna of the Muslims of South Albania (that have heavy ancestry from Gheg colonists and muhajirs from the Balkan wars) with the Christians of region, you cant speak of South Albanian profile, as it has been distorted in the last 2-3 centuries from the higher demographic growth of Muslim colonists.

Or it could be the other way around. Arbereshe might be Albanian in origins,as their genetic profile corresponds to that of the other Balkan nations, but the genetic and linguistic evidence suggest that Gheg Albanians:
a) Could have recent origins, as recent as the middle ages, from outside of the region as there is no genetic continuity with any of the near by populations.
b) Their language/dialect wasn't native to North Albania, but transplanted there,as it is substantially different from Arbereshe which was spoken in the same region today inhabited by Ghegs. It also has no Greek influences, in-spite being in the proximity of Byzantine strongholds,and in the Greek linguistic zone of influence.
c) they cant have recent common origins with Arbereshe, as they are genetically very different from Arbereshe.
What ever small genetic similarities they might have, are probably are due to incorporating Arbereshes remnants into the Gheg tribes that resettled in the region.

E-v13 is less than 30% in Peloponnese. J2a is as high as in the rest of the Greek Regions(very low in Ghegs), while J2b is the lowest in Greece(1/8th than that of ghegs). G2a is at similar rates as in the rest of Greece(also near absent in Ghegs).
So..

This shows deep ignorance mixed with nationalism.....


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I dont need to do anything the numbers speaks for themselves. South Albanians are mixed too. A mixture of Gheg muslims that settled on the region post 1500 AD , with local Greek and Arvanites.
Ottomans settled gheg gangs all over the place.Even in Greece. If Kolokotronis, the warlord father of the leader of the Greek revolution, hadnt made a 30 feet pyramid with heads of the 20 000 Turkoalbanian thugs that the Turks settled in Peloponese to spread Islam and control the region, today their descendants would have been too in the hundreds of thousands. That said their Genetics wouldnt have been identical with the genetics of North Albania, but something in between those and those of local Peloponneseans. The Turkish census of 1897 reports that the Vilayet of Iskorda , which corresponds to modern day North Albania, had a population bellow 100 000.Catholics were under-counted ,and were probably the majority of the population of Vilayet,but today they are 20%(if you correct for immigration since 1991). Similar demographic upsetting occurred in South Albania, then wholly part of the Vilayet of Yanya, where Gheg muslim colonists, descending from Ottoman garrisons and military units,slowly demographically overwhelmed local Albanian and Greek Orthodox. The population then of South Albania was little more than 300 000, and most were Christians.Today Christians are 25%(if that ) Thus the genetic profiles of the regions adapted accordingly to the different growth rates of the different religious communities that had different origins. Autosomally might be more similar, but the Y-dna differences still linger. Until there is a comparison between the Y-dna of the Muslims of South Albania (that have heavy ancestry from Gheg colonists and muhajirs from the Balkan wars) with the Christians of region, you cant speak of South Albanian profile, as it has been distorted in the last 2-3 centuries from the higher demographic growth of Muslim colonists.

Or it could be the other way around. Arbereshe might be Albanian in origins,as their genetic profile corresponds to that of the other Balkan nations, but the genetic and linguistic evidence suggest that Gheg Albanians:
a) Could have recent origins, as recent as the middle ages, from outside of the region as there is no genetic continuity with any of the near by populations.
b) Their language/dialect wasn't native to North Albania, but transplanted there,as it is substantially different from Arbereshe which was spoken in the same region today inhabited by Ghegs. It also has no Greek influences, in-spite being in the proximity of Byzantine strongholds,and in the Greek linguistic zone of influence.
c) they cant have recent common origins with Arbereshe, as they are genetically very different from Arbereshe.
What ever small genetic similarities they might have, are probably are due to incorporating Arbereshes remnants into the Gheg tribes that resettled in the region.

E-v13 is less than 30% in Peloponnese. J2a is as high as in the rest of the Greek Regions(very low in Ghegs), while J2b is the lowest in Greece(1/8th than that of ghegs). G2a is at similar rates as in the rest of Greece(also near absent in Ghegs).
So..
Pick up a book will you?

First of all, It's very concerning how many of you glorify the actions of people such as Kolokotronis. He was responsible for the murder of many Albanians, even women and children. No matter how hard you try to sugar coat it by calling them "Turkoalbanian thugs that the Turks settled to spread Islam", it doesn't change the facts.

You have very limited knowledge on Y-DNA and the history of the Albanians, so do not act as the authority on anything. The names of villages in the region of Laberia for example are recorded in their modern Albanian names in the defter of the Sanjak of Arvanid in 1431, also within these villages the majority of families do not claim origin from the north. Those that do have their origins very well recorded. There is also no recent Gheg influence in the dialect of the region.

Again, you have a problem wherein you believe that Y-DNA frequency is static and does not change over time. The Arbereshe have been living in Italy for centuries, it doesn't take a genius to realise why they have differing frequencies with Albanians from the Balkans. Should also take into account that with the resurgence of the Albanian tribes in post-Ottoman periods, there seems to have been a homogenisation of north Albania as the older tribes in the region were out-competed and thus ceased to exist as independent tribes (e.g. the Prekali, Tuzi, Kryethi etc).

The Arbereshe were from Tosk-speaking regions of Albania, primarily the south, and even Greece. The Ghegs on the other had did not occupy this area (in any significant numbers) during the Medieval, so the comparison to the Arbereshe in regards to the origin of Gheg makes little to no sense.
 
No J2a is only high in Crete, in Peloponesse it has been estimated around 15% on contray J2b in Peloponnese is around 9% which is more than the half of J2b in Kosovo Albanian (17%).
Testing via the Albanian Y-DNA project actually suggests that J2b-L283 reaches frequencies of ~27.1% among Kosovo Albanians and Albanians from the Preshevo valley (48/177).
 
Parapoolitikos trying to claim that italian y-dna clades in arberesh that aren't present in the balkans represent the "original" Albanians...

When will these insane attempts at fake narratives stop?


ETVH0huUUAMAsen


Slavic liquid metathesis happened in the 700's AD, meaning Albanians were in Labëria, Labunishtë, etc since at least way before then. (700AD)

The Green territory is Labëria, and this name used to be Arbëria, became Raberia with bulgarian slavic liquid metathesis, and then Laberia.

So your pitiful attempt to make Laberia some zone that was inhabited by Albanians only during Ottoman period is bunk not only from genetic evidence but even basic linguistic evidence.

It is super obvious this is motivated by your resentment of the very high Albanian admixture in Peloponnese Greeks. Please stop with these damage control attempts.

Raberia > Labëria.
Albanište >Labunište
Albanovo > Labanovo
 

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