Tosks in one study had 12% J2b. It does depend on the compostion tbh.
Arbereshe(pre 1500 Albanians) Y-DNA Vs (post 1500)Albanian Y-DNA. Big Differences!
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Tosks in one study had 12% J2b. It does depend on the compostion tbh.
Kelmendasi
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From what I have read, the percentage of J2b-L283 in southern Albania may range between 5-15%. Personally I'd say that the percentage given on the project website is most accurate so far given the larger sample size when compared to the studies. Most of the L283 in the south is found in the southwest, Laberia especially.
Very informative. Epirus was ethnically diverse which explains a lot.
Dema
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This study is like 5 years old, some results are 10 years old.
There is already topic about these results : https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31370-Y-DNA-of-Arbereshe-vs-Albanians-vs-Southern-Italians
We know that Arberesh assimilated some local populations which are more rare in Albanians like E-M123 and I-M223.
Also we see that in this study Arberesh have under 3 percent of J2b linages. It is perfectly normal. I dont understand what is confusing you?
Arberesh have some unique set of haplogroups with E-v13 at 13 % being their highest, same as in Albanians. But still i dont see what is so confusing here?
Maybe its your broken English, i simply cant understand what "living in the country before 1500, and have little in common with the Albanians living in the country before 1500" means?
before 1500 what? 1500 bc? 1500 years before present (ybp), 1500 CE, BCE ?
"living in the country (what country does that country have a name ?) before 1500 (1500 what ?, apples on tree? Or 1500 strawberries? ), and have little in common with the Albanians living in the country (again what country what Albanians? Arberesh or Albanian Albanians?) before 1500 (again 1500 what lol??)"
1500 what, what Albanians, what country, what are you trying to prove lol ?
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It would be interesting to see the genetics of Greeks from Albania and how they compare with others. Did a quick search and didn’t find anything.
One Greek from Himara is closely related with Albanians even Ghegs (by his Y-DNA R1b) that is because Himariotes were/are Lab Christian Albanians who were hellenized in 19th century.
Other Greeks migrated there from Pindos Mountains in 18th century and were/are largely of Vlachic ancestry. I don't believe medieval Vlachs of Thessaly and Epirus were Slavic influenced as some groups of Vlachs today are. So I would assume they would plot close to Thessaly and Epirus. I believe most of Slavic I2a and R1a in Greece and Albania comes from Slavs themselves seeing the toponyms.
Parapolitikos
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| Population | J2a | J2b | J2b/J2a ratio |
| Albania Kosovo 2 | -% | 16,5% | |
| Greeks Crete | 30.90% | 2.40% | 0.09 |
| Turks Central Anatolia | 26.70% | 0.80% | 0.03 |
| Greek Cypriots | 23.80% | 5.80% | 0.2 |
| Turks West Anatolia | 19.60% | 1.20% | 0.06 |
| Turks East Anatolia | 19.20% | 4.80% | 0.25 |
| Italians Sicily | 18.40% | 3.90% | 0.21 |
| Turks South Anatolia | 18.20% | 6.10% | 0.3 |
| Armenians Anatolia (Sasun) | 17.30% | 0.00% | 0 |
| Italians South (Griko spekaers) | 17.00% | 4.30% | 0.25 |
| Italians South | 16.50% | 2.90% | 0.18 |
| Italians Central | 15.90% | 3.70% | 0.23 |
| Greeks Central Greece and Attica | 14.60% | 9.50% | 0.65 |
| Greeks Thrace | 14.60% | 2.40% | 0.17 |
| Greeks Asia Minor and Aegean | 14.30% | 5.70% | 0.4 |
| Turks North Anatolia | 13.40% | 2.70% | 0.2 |
| Greeks Peloponnese | 12.30% | 3.40% | 0.35 |
| Greeks Thessaly | 11.10% | 9.70% | 0.9 |
| Greeks Macedonia | 8.50% | 5.70% | 0.7 |
| Arbereshe | 8.50% | 3.80% | 0.44 |
| Romania | 8.40% | 6% | 0.71 |
| Albanian Tosk | 7.60% | 11.50% | 1.5 |
| FYROM | 7% | 5% | 0.71 |
| Bulgaria | 6.90% | 2.70% | 0.39 |
| Italians North | 6.80% | 1.80% | 0.26 |
| FYROM 2 | 5.00% | 2% | 0.5 |
| Slovania | 4% | 3.10% | 0.77 |
| Hungary | 3.70% | 4.20% | 1.13 |
| Montengro | 3.50% | 4.40% | 1.25 |
| Albanian Kosovo | 3% | 13% | 4.3 |
| Serbia | 2.60% | 1.60% | 0.61 |
| Albanian North Ghegs | 2.50% | 25% | 10 |
| Bosnia | 2.20% | 1.80% | 0.81 |
| Croatians | 1.90% | 2.10% | 1.1 |
| Albanian FYROM | 1.60% | 14% | 11.5 |
| Albania FYROM 2 | 1.00% | 18% | 18 |
There is a Smooth dissemination of J2a from Anatolia to Thrace, from Thrace to Greece and Bulgaria, from Greece to Italy and from Greece/Bulgaria to west and north Balkans.Everywhere, minus North Albania,Kosovo and East Fyrom. And surprisingly it is also the places where J2b peaks.Once you control for the case of a(hypothesized) recent proliferation of J2a in Albanian gheg oriented populations via intermixing (aka Fyromian Albanians and Kosovars genetic flow from Slavs,North Albanians genetic flow from Arbereshe Remnants, and south Albanians genetic flow from Epirotes/arvanites) then you have to conclude that Ghegs originally had none to little J2a. And surprisingly enough, that's exactly what we find out from studies in deep Ghegia.The model of a recent Gheg expansion from a core remote and solid genetic heartland, from where they spilled first into Kosovo and North east Albania and then gradually to the Albanian Low lands, Fyrom and finally epirus, fully explains the ratio of J2b/J2a , the human desertification of medieval Albania explains the upsetting of the J2a frequency in Albanian lands compared to the rest of Balkans, and the high frequency of the J2b(via post Ottoman conquest, Gheg colonization).
The model is also fully consistent with the frequency of other haplogroups and the ratios between them,and also it leads to the unavoidable conclusion from the comparison of the ''Illyrian admixture'' in the Yugoslavic nations and Modern Albanians, that the historical Illyrians were also radically different from Modern Albanians. Once you remove the (alleged) haplogroups that reflect the ''slavic admixture'' in Yougoslavs, you are left with a different profile for Illyrians. Amazingly, the degree of their difference is also the degree of the ''Gheg-like'' admixture in the different Albanian populations.
And again the Question arises. When and how these pure J2B(and not J2a)-R1b(and not R1a), parachuted themselves into the heartland of Balkans? They seem to have appeared out of nowhere or out of some ..neolithic cave they were locked up for 5000 years.
Parapolitikos
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What's that have to do with anything?Parapoolitikos trying to claim that italian y-dna clades in arberesh that aren't present in the balkans represent the "original" Albanians...
When will these insane attempts at fake narratives stop?
Slavic liquid metathesis happened in the 700's AD, meaning Albanians were in Labëria, Labunishtë, etc since at least way before then. (700AD)
The Green territory is Labëria, and this name used to be Arbëria, became Raberia with bulgarian slavic liquid metathesis, and then Laberia.
So your pitiful attempt to make Laberia some zone that was inhabited by Albanians only during Ottoman period is bunk not only from genetic evidence but even basic linguistic evidence.
It is super obvious this is motivated by your resentment of the very high Albanian admixture in Peloponnese Greeks. Please stop with these damage control attempts.
Raberia > Labëria.
Albanište >Labunište
Albanovo > Labanovo
a)All the internationally recognized toponyms of Albania historically were either Slavic , or Latin, or Greek or Turkish in origins.North Epirus toponyms are mainly Greek. Does Argyrokastro, Koritsa, Aylwna, Saranta etc mean something in Albanian? Or maybe the ancient toponyms of the region mean something in Albanian?
b)Where exactly do you see the high Albanian Admixture in Peloponnese? It has the lowest J2b in Greece besides Crete.
This are few materials\books concerning the Ethnic compostion of South Albania, Epirus, Thessaly, Euboea, Attica, Boeotia, Peleponessos (Morea) etc during the XV and XVI centuries, just take a look (to pass the time in this Quarantine period), maybe it will help clarify your obvious confusion !!
- Regjistri i Sanxhakut te Arvanidit i vitit 1431/Hicri 835 tarihli suret-i defter-i sancak-i Arvanid/ The register of Sandjak of Arvanid year 1431
- Premedi and Kor?a register from 1431/ Defteri i regjistrimit t? P?rmetit dhe Kor??s i vitit 1431
- "Shoq?ria dhe ekonomia n? ?am?rin? osmane: Kazat? e ajdonatit dhe mazrakut (gjysma e dyt? e shek. XVI)" Dr. Ferit Duka. - "Society and Economy in Ottoman ?ameria: Kazas of Ajdonat and Mazrak (Second Half of the 16th Century)"
- "Defteri i regjistrimit osman t? Sanxhakut t? Vlor?s t? vitit 1519-1520" 1994, Ferit Duka. - "The Ottoman Defter of the Sandzak of Vlora from 1519-1520"
- "Hicri 859 Tarihli Suret-i Defter-i Sancak-i Tirhala"
- ‘Η απογραφή των Κραβάρων στο οθωμανικό φορολογικό κατάστιχο ΜΜ10 (1454-1455)’, Ναυπακτιακά 15 (2007-2009), 415-561. (at Academia.edu)
- The Viticulture and the Wine Production in the Early Ottoman Peloponnese on the Basis of the TT10-1/14662 Taxation Cadastre
Page 202; (at Academia.edu) As a prelude, and please do the maths!!
...Η εικόνα ?ιας, ως επί τo πλείστον, κατοικημένη από Αλβανούς Πελοπόννησιούς είναι φαινομενική, καθως η άθροιση των δημογραφικών δεδομένων του κατάστιχίου μας δίνει 7.103 ελληνικές οικογένειες και 4.900 αλβανικές οικογένειες....
- The Early Ottoman Peloponnese: A study in the light of an annotated editio princeps of the TT10-1/14662 Ottoman taxation cadastre (ca. 1460-1463)
(Available at Amazon.co)
- L’Eub?e ? la fin du XVe si?cle. ?conomie et Population. Les registres de l’ann?e 1474, Ath?nes, Archive of Euboean Studies, 1989
(at scribd and mydocuments)
- ?The region of Atalanti and Moudounitza in the Ottoman Period (15th-16th Century) in: Pax Ottomana. Studies in Memoriam Prof. Dr. Nejat G?y?n?, (ed.) Kemal ?i?ek, Haarlem-Ankara 2001, Sota-Yeni T?rkiye, 151-182.
(At Academia.edu)
- The Ottoman Conquest of the Morea (1387 - 1460)
page 13; (at Academia.edu)
etc etc etc
- Regjistri i Sanxhakut te Arvanidit i vitit 1431/Hicri 835 tarihli suret-i defter-i sancak-i Arvanid/ The register of Sandjak of Arvanid year 1431
- Premedi and Kor?a register from 1431/ Defteri i regjistrimit t? P?rmetit dhe Kor??s i vitit 1431
- "Shoq?ria dhe ekonomia n? ?am?rin? osmane: Kazat? e ajdonatit dhe mazrakut (gjysma e dyt? e shek. XVI)" Dr. Ferit Duka. - "Society and Economy in Ottoman ?ameria: Kazas of Ajdonat and Mazrak (Second Half of the 16th Century)"
- "Defteri i regjistrimit osman t? Sanxhakut t? Vlor?s t? vitit 1519-1520" 1994, Ferit Duka. - "The Ottoman Defter of the Sandzak of Vlora from 1519-1520"
- "Hicri 859 Tarihli Suret-i Defter-i Sancak-i Tirhala"
- ‘Η απογραφή των Κραβάρων στο οθωμανικό φορολογικό κατάστιχο ΜΜ10 (1454-1455)’, Ναυπακτιακά 15 (2007-2009), 415-561. (at Academia.edu)
- The Viticulture and the Wine Production in the Early Ottoman Peloponnese on the Basis of the TT10-1/14662 Taxation Cadastre
Page 202; (at Academia.edu) As a prelude, and please do the maths!!
...Η εικόνα ?ιας, ως επί τo πλείστον, κατοικημένη από Αλβανούς Πελοπόννησιούς είναι φαινομενική, καθως η άθροιση των δημογραφικών δεδομένων του κατάστιχίου μας δίνει 7.103 ελληνικές οικογένειες και 4.900 αλβανικές οικογένειες....
- The Early Ottoman Peloponnese: A study in the light of an annotated editio princeps of the TT10-1/14662 Ottoman taxation cadastre (ca. 1460-1463)
(Available at Amazon.co)
- L’Eub?e ? la fin du XVe si?cle. ?conomie et Population. Les registres de l’ann?e 1474, Ath?nes, Archive of Euboean Studies, 1989
(at scribd and mydocuments)
- ?The region of Atalanti and Moudounitza in the Ottoman Period (15th-16th Century) in: Pax Ottomana. Studies in Memoriam Prof. Dr. Nejat G?y?n?, (ed.) Kemal ?i?ek, Haarlem-Ankara 2001, Sota-Yeni T?rkiye, 151-182.
(At Academia.edu)
- The Ottoman Conquest of the Morea (1387 - 1460)
page 13; (at Academia.edu)
etc etc etc
Also, regarding the Slavic Toponymy in Albania, i politely suggest you to read first of all the articles concerning the Slavic toponymy in Greece (your own land!) than pass to the Albanian case, i will also give you the specific materials about Albania, but first read this please, Ok ?!
- "Die Slaven in Griechenland" von Max Vasmer
(at macedonia.kroraina.com)
- "Studien zu den slavischen Ortsnamen Griechenlands. 1. Slavische Flurnamen aus der messenischen Mani"
by Phaedon Malingoudis (at macedonia.kroraina.com)
- "TOPONYMY AND HISTORY. OBSERVATIONS CONCERNING THE SLAVONIC TOPONYMY OF THE PELOPONNESE"
by Phaedon Malingoudis (at kroraina.com)
...Vasmer's 428 place-names do not reflect the actual number of Slavonic place-names in the Peloponnese either quantitatively or qualitatively, since no complete inventory of these place-names has ever been made. In one small area of the Peloponnese, Messenian or Outer Mani for example, there are some 400 Slavonic place-names — as many, that is, as Vasmer gives for the whole of the Peloponnese.....
etc etc etc
- "Die Slaven in Griechenland" von Max Vasmer
(at macedonia.kroraina.com)
- "Studien zu den slavischen Ortsnamen Griechenlands. 1. Slavische Flurnamen aus der messenischen Mani"
by Phaedon Malingoudis (at macedonia.kroraina.com)
- "TOPONYMY AND HISTORY. OBSERVATIONS CONCERNING THE SLAVONIC TOPONYMY OF THE PELOPONNESE"
by Phaedon Malingoudis (at kroraina.com)
...Vasmer's 428 place-names do not reflect the actual number of Slavonic place-names in the Peloponnese either quantitatively or qualitatively, since no complete inventory of these place-names has ever been made. In one small area of the Peloponnese, Messenian or Outer Mani for example, there are some 400 Slavonic place-names — as many, that is, as Vasmer gives for the whole of the Peloponnese.....
etc etc etc
J2b was found in Bronze Age Balkans.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/b5/03/30b503d84b1aba8a46a3acc1a07864cb.png
I2a-din was not, and Croats and Slovenes diverge 70% to 80% towards Ukraine compared to Bronze Age Balkanites.
Dema
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Let me share some data i have regarding this study, but i still dont understand what topic creator is trying to say ?
Yes we know about these results they are 5 years old, and Italian results are 10 years old... There is nothing new in this tread?
Yes we know about these results they are 5 years old, and Italian results are 10 years old... There is nothing new in this tread?
Dema
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Arberesh are closer to Tosks then to Ghegs, also linguistically and not only genetically. Arberesh just as Tosks and Greeks have somewhat more Slavic lines then Ghegs do.
Also Arberesh are pretty much heterogeneous. Their primary haplogroups are E-v13 at 13 % (probably Albanian), I2a-M223 10 % (assimilated in Italy), E-M123 10 % (assimilated in Italy), R1a 10 % (Slavic, assimilated in Balkan), I2a-CTS10228 10 % (Slavic, assimilated in Balkan).
Also i checked the STRs for M205 among Arberesh and i was surprised to find one J2b-M205 sample but seems like he is Y47134 and therefore probably just as E-M123 and I2a-M233 is assimilated in Italy into Arberesh community since we dont have anything similar to this sample in Balkan but also in Europe.
Also Arberesh are pretty much heterogeneous. Their primary haplogroups are E-v13 at 13 % (probably Albanian), I2a-M223 10 % (assimilated in Italy), E-M123 10 % (assimilated in Italy), R1a 10 % (Slavic, assimilated in Balkan), I2a-CTS10228 10 % (Slavic, assimilated in Balkan).
Also i checked the STRs for M205 among Arberesh and i was surprised to find one J2b-M205 sample but seems like he is Y47134 and therefore probably just as E-M123 and I2a-M233 is assimilated in Italy into Arberesh community since we dont have anything similar to this sample in Balkan but also in Europe.
Johane Derite
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J2b-L283 has been found in 3500 year old tumuli on illyrian coast, and even older R1b-z2103 in Illyrian hinterland.
You are trying to claim these are ottoman introduced lineages lmao, explain how j2b got in an etruscan
Johane Derite
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3500 year old means 1500 BC. Yetos you should have been banned a million years ago, you are nothing but a rotten pest.
Dema
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Lol
3500 BC? or 1500 BC?
and from where did it came there?
was it autochthonus there before ?
what is funny ? He said 3500 years old, so its 1500 BCE. Actually if i remember correctly Dalmatian sample is 3700 years old.
I will just copy paste my posts from J2 thread to answer your question since it seems you are asking about J2b-L283:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...lyrian)/page19?p=594593&viewfull=1#post594593
Kelmendasi
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The statistics shown on the project website are bound to be more accurate than these given that there is a larger sample size.
You do realise that ratios practically mean nothing when it comes to Y-DNA? I have only seen people with little knowledge on the topic bring things like this up. You have literally no evidence that suggests that the area of modern day Albania historically had a high percentage of J2a-M410, there is no real diversity of M410 across the nation nor a high presence of basal clades. When you compare it to J2b-L283, It's clear which cluster has actually had an older presence in the region. As for the high presence of J2b-L283, yes there may have been an increase in frequency in post-Ottoman times due to the fact that much of the diversity was likely reduced as certain tribes went extinct, however most of the Albanian clusters of L283 actually have TMRCAs that go back to late Antiquity or the Early Medieval. Diversity of these clades also suggests a historical presence in the region.
Again, stop talking about things you know nothing about with such certainty. The clusters of J2b-L283 and R1b present in Albania show local origin for the most part, however the TMRCA for some suggests a bottleneck during the Early Medieval period. As for R1a and I2a-CTS10228, if you seriously believe that these haplogroups did not arrive via the Slavic expansion into the region, then I don't know what to say to you.
I do not know why you make it seem like Gheg Albanians are a different ethno-linguistic group from other Albanians (Arvanites and other Tosks included), It's literally the dumbest thing you could claim. Put aside your nationalistic biases, It's embarrassing.
torzio
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[h=1]Y-SNP analysis of I4331, J2b2a-L283, Bronze Age Croatia – Mathieson et al. 2018
[/h]
[h=3]December 2019 update[/h]Due to higher resolution NGS tests, it was recently discovered that SNP FT92472 is equivalent to J-Z38240. I4331 has no reads for Z38240, but is positive for FT92472. Therefore he can further be assigned to: J-Y15058>FT92472(xZ38241,BY48225) or at YFull’s J-Z38240 level.
[/h]
[h=3]December 2019 update[/h]Due to higher resolution NGS tests, it was recently discovered that SNP FT92472 is equivalent to J-Z38240. I4331 has no reads for Z38240, but is positive for FT92472. Therefore he can further be assigned to: J-Y15058>FT92472(xZ38241,BY48225) or at YFull’s J-Z38240 level.
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