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Thread: Potential R1a-M458 sample discovered in Bronze Age South-West Germany

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Potential R1a-M458 sample discovered in Bronze Age South-West Germany

    One sample on a upcoming paper on social and genetic structure of Late Neolithic Switzerland may belong to R1a-M458 pending further examination. Sample MX265 was discovered in the District of Constance, which is in Southwest Germany on the Swiss border. If I am not mistaken the sample was from the Bronze Age. If it is confirmed it would be pretty neat considering we only have medieval samples of descending clades.

    According to Pribislav on Anthro(whom I assume interpreted the BAM): The reads were as follows.

    PF6155 level: AM01874+ A>G (1 read); AM01875+ C>A (1 read); PF6161+ C>T (1 read)


    PF6155>M458 level: PF6202+ T>C (3 reads)



    All downstream SNPs are ancestral, including some that define subclades CTS11962, CTS11962>L1029, L260>YP256, and L260>YP1337. The official paper is due to release soon. The link to the BAM file among other samples is below if anyone is curious about proofing or checking other samples.

    https://trace.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Trace...tudy=SRP250694

    Additionally, G25 coordinates were already prepared should anyone be interested.

    MX265_scaled,0.122929,0.14319,0.04978,0.026163,0.0 46778,-0.000558,0.002585,0.002308,0.005727,0.011663,0.012 017,-0.005395,0.000595,0.01101,-0.009908,-0.015115,-0.009388,0.007348,0.001634,-0.002126,-0.01148,-0.00643,-0.002465,-0.006025,-0.008023

    MX265,0.0108,0.0141,0.0132,0.0081,0.0152,-0.0002,0.0011,0.001,0.0028,0.0064,0.0074,-0.0036,0.0004,0.008,-0.0073,-0.0114,-0.0072,0.0058,0.0013,-0.0017,-0.0092,-0.0052,-0.002,-0.005,-0.0067


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting. Curiously, this individual was mostly EEF and had relatively little steppe ancestry, but a lot of extra HG ancestry, absorbed, I guess, in the journey from the steppe to Southwest Germany through a northern route, probably with the CWC expansion.

    Target: MX265_scaled
    Distance: 4.1580% / 0.04157987 | ADC: 0.25x
    54.2 HUN_ALPc_Szakalhat_MN
    26.8 RUS_Progress_En
    10.0 UKR_Meso
    4.6 POL_Globular_Amphora
    4.0 ROU_Meso
    0.4 UKR_Trypillia
    ,

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Interesting. Curiously, this individual was mostly EEF and had relatively little steppe ancestry, but a lot of extra HG ancestry, absorbed, I guess, in the journey from the steppe to Southwest Germany through a northern route, probably with the CWC expansion.
    Target: MX265_scaled
    Distance: 4.1580% / 0.04157987 | ADC: 0.25x
    54.2 HUN_ALPc_Szakalhat_MN
    26.8 RUS_Progress_En
    10.0 UKR_Meso
    4.6 POL_Globular_Amphora
    4.0 ROU_Meso
    0.4 UKR_Trypillia
    ,
    He had high CWC Baltic admixture. If I'm not mistaken, is Farmer ancestry is high but is still dwarfed by the Baltic. Farmer ancestry seems shared with SE Farmers.

    All ancients:
    Target: MX265_scaled
    Distance: 1.2714% / 0.01271432
    23.6 Baltic_LVA_BA

    14.2 DEU_LBK_N
    13.8 HUN_Starcevo_N
    11.4 Corded_Ware_DEU
    11.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA
    6.2 HUN_Tisza_LN
    6.2 SWE_LN_low_res
    3.8 GRC_Peloponnese_N
    3.0 HUN_MA_Szolad
    2.6 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
    1.4 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier2
    1.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    0.6 VUT_2300BP_all
    0.4 ZAF_2000BP
    0.2 MAR_Taforalt


    Target: MX265_scaled
    Distance: 2.9856% / 0.02985603

    37.8 Corded_Ware_DEU
    24.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    19.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
    18.4 Corded_Ware_POL

    One user mentioned another paper on eastern La Tene also has some R1a. Not published yet.
    Considering this find, I'm curious if the R1a in that paper will be M458 as well.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Target: MX265_scaled
    Distance: 2.9856% / 0.02985603

    37.8 Corded_Ware_DEU
    24.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    19.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
    18.4 Corded_Ware_POL

    One user mentioned another paper on eastern La Tene also has some R1a. Not published yet.
    Considering this find, I'm curious if the R1a in that paper will be M458 as well.
    I think this confirms the high extra EEF in this individual in comparison with CWC samples. You have ~44% EEF + ~56% CWC (Germany and Poland), but in this ~56% there was already a significant even if minor amount of EEF. This individual probably had recent ancestors from late EEF communities who were still mixing with CWC and Beaker-derived people, I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I think this confirms the high extra EEF in this individual in comparison with CWC samples. You have ~44% EEF + ~56% CWC (Germany and Poland), but in this ~56% there was already a significant even if minor amount of EEF. This individual probably had recent ancestors from late EEF communities who were still mixing with CWC and Beaker-derived people, I think.
    Very possible. I could be wrong but I think it could be a spillover from Lusatian or related cultures into La Tene.

    However, if those R1a samples in Eastern La Tene coming are M458, perhaps it was part of both neighboring cultures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    These other samples are Central European as well?
    Does have a decent chunk of Anatolia Barcin. On Iron Age calc he gets Pannonian and South East Celtic as his closest distances. Not sure if these are just arbitrary labels or if they do represent the cultures to some extent.


    0 - 1000 BCE (Iron Age) G25 Calculator

    Target: MX265_scaled
    Distance: 3.2720% / 0.03271984

    31.2 BALTIC
    16.8 ILLYRIAN
    15.6 GREEK
    12.8 CELTIC-SOUTHEAST
    12.0 MACEDONIAN
    10.8 IBERIAN
    0.6 IBEROMAURUSIAN
    0.2 SOUTH-AFRICA

    Distance to: MX265_scaled
    0.03923354 PANNONIAN
    0.04856681 CELTIC-SOUTHEAST

    0.06703847 ILLYRIAN
    0.06759245 CELTIC-NORTHWEST
    0.06820935 PONTIC-BALTIC
    0.08752413 NORDIC
    0.08890670 MACEDONIAN
    0.08953220 IBERIAN
    0.09638782 PANNONIAN-PONTIC
    0.10030210 PONTIC
    0.12293335 GREEK
    0.12822600 CENTRAL-EUROPEAN-PONTIC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    These other samples are Central European as well?
    The Lech samples (Mittnick paper, iirc) were found some 200 kms to the east, in southern Germany, just north of the Austrian border. At approximately the same latitude.

    To me, this guy looks like a typical Urnfield sample, in spite of his haplogroup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    The Lech samples (Mittnick paper, iirc) were found some 200 kms to the east, in southern Germany, just north of the Austrian border. At approximately the same latitude.

    To me, this guy looks like a typical Urnfield sample, in spite of his haplogroup.
    Very interesting. I look forward to the paper including the other one with R1a in Eastern La Tene.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    The Lech samples (Mittnick paper, iirc) were found some 200 kms to the east, in southern Germany, just north of the Austrian border. At approximately the same latitude.

    To me, this guy looks like a typical Urnfield sample, in spite of his haplogroup.
    It appears the sample is in fact R1a-M458*. It turns out to be between 750-450BC. Coinciding roughly with Hallstatt C & D period. Interestingly this timeframe coincides with the arrival of iron weapons and inhumation/cremation rites.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    For what it's worth, in my German DNA/Heritage Facebook group, a guy shared a pie chart with Swiss-German Y DNA samples, and while only 6% is R1a, it is all M458.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    For what it's worth, in my German DNA/Heritage Facebook group, a guy shared a pie chart with Swiss-German Y DNA samples, and while only 6% is R1a, it is all M458.
    I imagine if more M458 starts coming from La Tene it will make everything a little clearer.

    Can you post that pie chart when you get a chance?

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    Screen Shot 2020-05-31 at 3.43.40 PM.pngWhoops, didn't keep up with this thread...I guess better late than never.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Screen Shot 2020-05-31 at 3.43.40 PM.pngWhoops, didn't keep up with this thread...I guess better late than never.
    Great! thank you.

    I guess we can't really say much until we get clade specifics among Swiss M458. Also, whether or not theres some clade diversity or if its owed to a founder effect/bottleneck. Whether or not it was involved in East La Tene, assuming it spread exclusively with Slavs, the only thing I can think of are Wendish under the Franks, or later migrations from Germany(carrying M458) to Switzerland. As far as I can tell, Slavs didn't really have much input in the region. Interestingly, 6% while low is still higher than many other areas with M458. With the exception of Bulgaria, All South Slavic countries have 2-5% M458. For an area not settled by Slavs, its interesting they have M458. Equally interesting is the absence of Z280 which is more common among Slavs.

    Do you know how many samples were included?

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