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Thread: Ancient genomes reveal social and genetic structure of Late Neolithic Switzerland

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    torzio from this forum
    posted it in another thread
    the y haplogroups that been found .....


    below is the Ydna found from these neolithic swiss

    Aesch1 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch4 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch6 G2a2a-Z6484
    Aesch7 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch12 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch13 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch14 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch17 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch19 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch20 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch21 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch22 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch23 G2a2a-pre-L166
    Aesch24 G2a2a-Z6484
    Aesch25 R1b-L151* (xP312,U106)
    MX150 G2a2a-L91
    MX182 G2a2a-PF3239
    MX183 G2a2a-PF3239
    MX187 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX188 I2a1a2-Y3104*
    MX190 I2a1a2-Y3104*
    MX191 I2a1a2-Y3104*
    MX192 I2a1a2-Y3104*
    MX195 I2a1a2a-pre-L161?
    MX204 G2a2a-Z6484
    MX209 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX210 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX211 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX212 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX213 G2a2a-pre-L166
    MX219 G2a2a-PF3147
    MX252 R1b-L2
    MX254_2 R1b-L2
    MX257 R1b-L2
    MX258 R1b-P312
    MX259 R1b-P312
    MX265 R1a-M458
    MX270 R1b-L20
    MX275 R1b-L2
    MX279 R1b-L2
    MX283 R1b-L2
    MX286 R1b-L2
    MX288 R1b-L2
    SNPRA58 G2a2a-Z6484
    SNPRA61 G2a2a-pre-L166
    SNPRA62 G2a2a-pre-L166
    SNPRA63 R1b-L2
    SNPRA64 R1b-L2
    SX10 G2a2a-L166
    SX11 G2a2b-PF3345*
    SX20 R1b-P312
    SX29 I2a1a2-M423 (xL621)
    SX32 R1b-L52 (xP312,U106)
    SX33 I2a1a2a-L161

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Keep in mind majority of Afanasievo are R1b-Z2103+. R1b-L51 has not been found in Yamnaya[majority L23+>Z2109+].
    Conflating three lineages into cultural package “YAM”‘=Yamnaya is not compatible with this Swiss R1a sample. ” Steppe ” terminology component is reflects a more accurate scenario. “Yamnaya like” in what sense ?YAM–Yamnaya Samara=Yamnaya R1b-L23+>Z2103>+Z2109- 33oo + /-[Swiss samples negative]. Yamnaya culture contain graves with, early forms of Yersinia pestis, hammer bone pins, copper, copper tanged dagger, silver, wagons, domesticated cattle/sheep, horse remains, etc…. It is not shown the vector of steppe in the R1a samples, the same can be said for I11955(GLAV_14_Co) Casual and or indirect contact with steppe; the actual vector can only be speculated.
    That Swiss R1a sample is from the Iron Age, isn't it ? To me it looks like Yamnaya pushed everything out of the steppe and that's what led to the Corded ware culture. That Romanian sample looks very "Yamnaya-like" but I tried to model him and to me he looks like a Steppe_Maykop and SS2(Aleksandriya) mixture. Yamnaya was not needed to model him. Still Corded ware looks more like Afanasievo and Yamnaya than that Romanian sample. There is a paper coming out for this time period (3500-3000BCE) and region so we will find out what led to the Corded Ware, Yamnaya and Afanasievo culture. Anyways, what is your opinion about the formation of the Corded ware culture and other steppe cultures ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    That Swiss R1a sample is from the Iron Age, isn't it ? To me it looks like Yamnaya pushed everything out of the steppe and that's what led to the Corded ware culture. That Romanian sample looks very "Yamnaya-like" but I tried to model him and to me he looks like a Steppe_Maykop and SS2(Aleksandriya) mixture. Yamnaya was not needed to model him. Still Corded ware looks more like Afanasievo and Yamnaya than that Romanian sample. There is a paper coming out for this time period (3500-3000BCE) and region so we will find out what led to the Corded Ware, Yamnaya and Afanasievo culture. Anyways, what is your opinion about the formation of the Corded ware culture and other steppe cultures ?
    I have learned it is best not to speculate on other ydna lines. Everyone should be proud of their heritage and not judge others.
    I'm just waiting for a few more papers, and then I'm getting out of this hobby. We have a common paternal bond and share common male ancestors, really fortunate to have so much material put out on our ancestors.
    R1b-Z2103+= Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Catacombe-Hajji Firuzz teppe-Sarmatian- paternal marker.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    It's such a fresh air to imagine your paternal ancestors were from your modern country maybe 4000 years ago already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    The paper used Yamnaya=YAM. None of these R1b or R1a samples have anything to do with--YAM-- Yamnaya R1b-Z2103-Z2109- 33oo+ -. hammer bone pins, copper, tanged dagger, wagons, horse remains.
    the YAM is referring to the autosomal DNA, nothing more

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    That Swiss R1a sample is from the Iron Age, isn't it ? To me it looks like Yamnaya pushed everything out of the steppe and that's what led to the Corded ware culture. That Romanian sample looks very "Yamnaya-like" but I tried to model him and to me he looks like a Steppe_Maykop and SS2(Aleksandriya) mixture. Yamnaya was not needed to model him. Still Corded ware looks more like Afanasievo and Yamnaya than that Romanian sample. There is a paper coming out for this time period (3500-3000BCE) and region so we will find out what led to the Corded Ware, Yamnaya and Afanasievo culture. Anyways, what is your opinion about the formation of the Corded ware culture and other steppe cultures ?
    that is how I see it to

    the PIE lived in the Don-Ural steppe prior to Yamna
    those were the Khvalynsk and Repin people

    R1b-Z2103 invented a new lifestyle which replaced all other PIE in the Don-Ural steppe
    those other PIE re-emerged in Corded Ware R1a-M417 and in Bell Beaker R1b-L51

    I guess R1a-M417 ancestors were part of the Khvalynsk people
    I guess the Repin people were R1b-M269, ancestral to both R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    That Swiss R1a sample is from the Iron Age, isn't it ? To me it looks like Yamnaya pushed everything out of the steppe and that's what led to the Corded ware culture. That Romanian sample looks very "Yamnaya-like" but I tried to model him and to me he looks like a Steppe_Maykop and SS2(Aleksandriya) mixture. Yamnaya was not needed to model him. Still Corded ware looks more like Afanasievo and Yamnaya than that Romanian sample. There is a paper coming out for this time period (3500-3000BCE) and region so we will find out what led to the Corded Ware, Yamnaya and Afanasievo culture. Anyways, what is your opinion about the formation of the Corded ware culture and other steppe cultures ?
    As for 'steppe Maykop', aren't they Yamna with a little extra Siberian (ANE) DNA and some cultural but no genetical Maykop influence ?
    I guess a few Q1a added this extra Siberian (ANE), but the bulk were probably also R1b-Z2103

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    that is how I see it to

    the PIE lived in the Don-Ural steppe prior to Yamna
    those were the Khvalynsk and Repin people

    R1b-Z2103 invented a new lifestyle which replaced all other PIE in the Don-Ural steppe
    those other PIE re-emerged in Corded Ware R1a-M417 and in Bell Beaker R1b-L51

    I guess R1a-M417 ancestors were part of the Khvalynsk people
    I guess the Repin people were R1b-M269, ancestral to both R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L51
    Yes, very close to my thoughts about the steppe cultures.

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    As for 'steppe Maykop', aren't they Yamna with a little extra Siberian (ANE) DNA and some cultural but no genetical Maykop influence ?
    I guess a few Q1a added this extra Siberian (ANE), but the bulk were probably also R1b-Z2103
    The samples labeled Steppe Maykop are part of the Maykop culture but their autosomal DNA is very different. No Yamnaya atDNA but they have more Siberian related and ANE affinity than all steppe people, even minor Kennewick affinity. My guess is that they are from Central Asia something similar to Botai and maybe from Kelteminar culture and they absorbed the Eneolithic Piedmont. There was minor gene flow between the main Maykop people and the Steppe Maykop. About the Y-DNA, Yes i think they are Q1a and majority R1b-Z2103. The Romanian sample I mentioned, that in my opinion has Steppe Maykop ancestry, is maybe part of the Usatovo culture:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usatovo_culture

    See the part about the connection to the North Caucasus.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    I have learned it is best not to speculate on other ydna lines. Everyone should be proud of their heritage and not judge others.
    I'm just waiting for a few more papers, and then I'm getting out of this hobby. We have a common paternal bond and share common male ancestors, really fortunate to have so much material put out on our ancestors.
    R1b-Z2103+= Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Catacombe-Hajji Firuzz teppe-Sarmatian- paternal marker.
    I didn´t meant to judge your Y-DNA line or anyones heritage. These were just my thoughts about the movements related to the steppe cultures. I think sometimes some speculation and scenarios for movements in pre historical times is needed to get a bigger and clearer picture of the past.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    that is how I see it to

    the PIE lived in the Don-Ural steppe prior to Yamna
    those were the Khvalynsk and Repin people

    R1b-Z2103 invented a new lifestyle which replaced all other PIE in the Don-Ural steppe
    those other PIE re-emerged in Corded Ware R1a-M417 and in Bell Beaker R1b-L51

    I guess R1a-M417 ancestors were part of the Khvalynsk people
    I guess the Repin people were R1b-M269, ancestral to both R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L51
    If Steppe peoples were PIE's and invented the chalcolithic herder lifestyle, it doesn't need any specific lineage as creator, but more lineage(s) as perpetuator. There is a lot of subclades that can be linked with the original IE migrations. R1b-Z2103, R1b-L51 ( P312 ), R1b-V1636 ( hypothetic ) and R1a-M417/Z645 ( Z93 and Z283 ), other R1a/R1b minor subclades and maybe even other haplogroups subclades. It's hard to be sure wich one created it.

    But on an interesting note, Khvalynsk is probably the best proxy as what will become the Cultural Horizon known as Yamnaya, but Eneolithic Steppe is closer in terms of Modeled Ancestry to Yamnaya, than Khvalynsk is to Yamnaya.

    Didn't both Khvalynsk and Eneolithic Steppe showed R1b-V1636? The same subclade found later in Kura-Araxes, and a potential source for early Anatolians ( R1b-V1636 is almost only found in modern Turkey nowadays ) wich are the most archaic form of IE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    I didn´t meant to judge your Y-DNA line or anyones heritage. These were just my thoughts about the movements related to the steppe cultures. I think sometimes some speculation and scenarios for movements in pre historical times is needed to get a bigger and clearer picture of the past.
    LOL, I did not take it that way, we are related; I was speaking in broad terms. Every culture had different ways to survive their environment, steppe cultures included.
    In terms of movements, I would say look to the regions we are buried.
    Also look at the phylogeny of Yersinia pestis, in our graves, and others. Some of those graves have Yamnaya trademark hammer head bone pins.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Here are the coordinates for the samples in this paper:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post601968
    There can be no covenants between men and lions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    LOL, I did not take it that way, we are related; I was speaking in broad terms. Every culture had different ways to survive their environment, steppe cultures included.
    In terms of movements, I would say look to the regions we are buried.
    Also look at the phylogeny of Yersinia pestis, in our graves, and others. Some of those graves have Yamnaya trademark hammer head bone pins.
    Do you have more information about the Phylogeny of Yersinia Pestis. When and where do we have samples from with Yersinia Pestis ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Do you have more information about the Phylogeny of Yersinia Pestis. When and where do we have samples from with Yersinia Pestis ?
    https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/imag...48-fx1_lrg.jpg
    All samples below are R1b-Z2103+ populations male/female
    Rise 511-Afanasievo
    RK 1001-Caucasus
    Vucedol-listed in other papers-Blakan
    Rise 397-Armenia

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867418314648

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/12/spr...ithic-decline/

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    among megalithic for sure, but probably before
    watch the neolithic Y-DNA in the paper, all G2a2-PF3239, probably even all L166, the same as the 5 ka ötzi
    this subclade probably occupied a large area, form Northern Italy till Southern Germany before steppe ancestry arrived
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-PF3239/
    Could perhaps a founder effect explain it too?

    Well, anyway, I tend to agree. These warfares must have affected even specific R1b lineages in an important way, given the fact "two thirds of modern European men descend from just three Bronze Age leaders"*, or that "half of Western European men descend from one Bronze Age 'King'"**? As I said in another thread, G2 and R1b have a similar TMRCA, but based on YFull data, at about 6800 years ago G2 as a whole had more than 40 lineages that survived to our days, despite the huge decline in LN. R1b had about the half, if I checked it right. Despite the huge timeframe and area involved, could it support the notion that this competition between patrilineal kin groups tended to be significantly stronger in some cultures than others? Or is it merely explained by the fact G2 expanded earlier in farming societies?

    * https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...e-leaders.html
    ** https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...onze-age-king/
    Last edited by Regio X; 24-04-20 at 21:44.

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    The TMRCA of R-L2 is 4300 ybp (CI 95% 4800-4000) according to YFull. The age of RA64, for example, is estimated as 2206-2126 BC. It seems possible R-L2 originated around Switzerland.

    The most frequent type of G2a in Switzerland nowadays is G2a2b, and this study found just one, curiously. It looks like clades such G-L497 possibly arrived in that area later than R-U152 did?

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    just general remarks about this paper:
    As said on Eurogenes blog by somebody, the 'Neolitihic' terminology is a mistaking name:
    as other historical cultural labellings, it may not be taken as a pure chronologic term because it did not appear AND end everywhere in the same time + in western Europe, even if genuine Neolithic dured globally longer (or say, metals cultural traits appeared later), these new cultural traits appeared and it would be better to say 'Eneolithic' or 'Chalcolithic' (first copper) since the 3000's BC; and the cultural changes very often came along with people; so what we find in the sepultures of the transition periods has to be precisely defined and accutely studied, bones as well as artefacts, and not stupidly labelled as "Neolithic".
    concerning Y-haplo's, it seems to me that that the more clannic and half-nomadic the culture is, the more the Y lineages tend to be as monolithical monopoles. And that in the more sedented cultures, we can find more easily a mix of Y lineages: it deserves a sociology/politic approach. It supposes too that to impose itself, a Y lineages needs to be supported by an already numerous pop, or at least a military powerful group; when it is not the case, the newcomers are assimilated or are obliged to associate themselves with the others. It's why I don't believe first BB creators were Y-R1b, BTW.
    I would like to know if there are differences of dates and artefacts in the same places for the different Y-haplo's.

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    @Moesan
    Good post. Thanks for the contribution.

    So, there must have been significant differences in this regard between different cultures, yes.

    Anyway, the situation in Europe is quite curious. I mean, it's really amazing that half of European population descend in male line from a single Bronze Age king (R-L151 MRCA, from abt. 2800 BCE?). I wonder if this phenomenon may be noticed anywhere else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It other words it was a caste system, with the males of the "natives" being disadvantaged.
    Given all the papers from Krause I also think there was a difference in terms of immunity to plague, and given what we see from Covid 19, that might very well have affected men more than women. Plus, anyone that thinks this happened without violence doesn't know anything about human nature.
    See above. Perhaps I'm missing something (please tell me), since most of my little knowledge about it is based on some forum posts, but my perception is that this caste system theory is more plausible. It would not have affected just natives, but possibly Steppe folks themselves before that, as part of their "culture", unless we think they heavily butchered other Steppe folks too, earlier.
    Anyway, whatever the causes were, it looks like they victimized different groups those times, hence my perception that plague alone doesn't explain it (not saying you meant this). Perhaps they "weakened" those farmers and helped this "infiltration" by foreigners. Don't know.

    Btw, were the two groups that different in terms of technology, as Native Americans and European colonizers were, for example?

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    Good post. Thanks for the contribution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    @Moesan
    So, there must have been significant differences in this regard between different cultures, yes.

    Anyway, the situation in Europe is quite curious. I mean, it's really amazing that half of European population descend in male line from a single Bronze Age king (R-L151 MRCA, from abt. 2800 BCE?). I wonder if this phenomenon may be noticed anywhere else.

    See above. Perhaps I'm missing something (please tell me), since most of my little knowledge about it is based on some forum posts, but my perception is that this caste system theory is more plausible. It would not have affected just natives, but possibly Steppe folks themselves before that, as part of their "culture", unless we think they heavily butchered other Steppe folks too, earlier.
    Anyway, whatever the causes were, it looks like they victimized different groups at different times, hence my perception.
    I don't see why it's an either/or situation. From everything I have read in terms of history and archaeology and anthropolgy, my take away is that for most important cultural changes or historical events there are always multiple factors involved. That's the case, imo, for example, for the Bronze Age Collapse.

    I don't think it's a coincidence that northern Europeans have some higher immunity to the plague, especially in light of what Kristiansen said.

    I do think that that there was massive winnowing of the y lines on the steppe. I think all the varieties dwindled down to three. There's a paper on it but I can't remember it offhand. Tomorrow, I'll see if I saved it in my files.

    Then there's the very large signs of violence in steppe society, as seen in the state of the skeletons. Yes, there's violence in virtually all human societies, increasing when resources are scarce, but I think the papers see it as particularly prevalent. The Langobards were in the same state in both Szolad and Collegno.

    Also, I can't think of any massive folk movement in history where there weren't significant bursts of violence between the "natives" and the "newcomers".


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Good post. Thanks for the contribution.


    I don't see why it's an either/or situation. From everything I have read in terms of history and archaeology and anthropolgy, my take away is that for most important cultural changes or historical events there are always multiple factors involved. That's the case, imo, for example, for the Bronze Age Collapse.

    I don't think it's a coincidence that northern Europeans have some higher immunity to the plague, especially in light of what Kristiansen said.

    I do think that that there was massive winnowing of the y lines on the steppe. I think all the varieties dwindled down to three. There's a paper on it but I can't remember it offhand. Tomorrow, I'll see if I saved it in my files.

    Then there's the very large signs of violence in steppe society, as seen in the state of the skeletons. Yes, there's violence in virtually all human societies, increasing when resources are scarce, but I think the papers see it as particularly prevalent. The Langobards were in the same state in both Szolad and Collegno.

    Also, I can't think of any massive folk movement in history where there weren't significant bursts of violence between the "natives" and the "newcomers".
    Thanks for the good response. I completely agree with this idea of complexity/multiple factors.
    It's really odd to think in thousands and thousands of people living those times and just few lineages thriving. :)

    Btw, before your answer I edited my post.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Regio: Btw, were the two groups that different in terms of technology, as Native Americans and European colonizers were, for example?
    My reading of the papers is that there were not. I'm aware of all the myth making or myth re-telling that dominated pop gen sites for years, i.e. the whole horse riding, bronze sword waving knights of the steppe invading Europe, but I said then, and I think an objective reading of the papers shows now that was not true. (David Anthony was, unfortunately, the genesis for some of that.) It was a back projection of cultures like those of the Scythians and Cimmerians of a time much later.

    What the papers, which you should be able to find both on here (it was debated endlessly) and through search engines, show, to the best of my recollection, is that when Corded Ware, for example, entered Europe, they probably came with oxen driven carts. There are very few horse burials, and no evidence they were ridden, although they were prized. That all came much later, like the invention of the light, round wheeled chariots, and the fighting while horse riding even later imo.

    In terms of weapons, they had no bronze and extremely little copper of any kind, certainly not weapons made of them. There was much more copper in "Old Europe". At that point in time the steppe people had very rudimentary metals technology. That all started later. So it wood have been axes and bows and arrows, and daggers for close in fighting. Even the wrist guards are held by some to have been adopted from the European farmers.

    The papers are all there if you look for them.

    I said then and I still maintain now that the cultures of "Old Europe" were decimated by bad harvests caused by some climate change issues, perhaps ecological damage, and disease, likely plague brought in through very early sporadic contact with the east, as well as other diseases likely to have spread in crowded agricultural settlements.

    In addition to encountering weakened societies, while they themselves had some more immunity to the plague, the steppe people had a more herding centric life style more adapted to the changing situation and a propensity for spread out small groups of people more conducive to reducing the spread of disease. Sound familiar? :)

    While I completely agree that Gimbutas was wrong in her emphasis on the "peacefulness" of the Neolithic settlements, it seems very plausible going by what we know of the rituals of the steppe people, the sending out of young boys and men to forcibly acquire land and wealth, that their culture was probably also more warlike. While women in the Neolithic societies did not have the status Gimbutas claimed, I think a case could be made that they had a more important role, and perhaps they were more equitably treated, if the relative amount of food given to them was much the same as was given to men. That certainly wasn't the case with the steppe groups, and it wasn't the case even much later with the Langobards.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    @Moesan
    Good post. Thanks for the contribution.
    So, there must have been significant differences in this regard between different cultures, yes.
    Anyway, the situation in Europe is quite curious. I mean, it's really amazing that half of European population descend in male line from a single Bronze Age king (R-L151 MRCA, from abt. 2800 BCE?). I wonder if this phenomenon may be noticed anywhere else.
    check for instance the haplogroup E-M81

    and there is the dominance of O in China and SE Asia, a result of multiple waves
    the last wave were the Han-Chinese which was very well organised, with an army of several 100.000
    they conquered the south, enslaved the tribes, made large infrastructure works and then have the land taken be colonised by loyal farmers from the north

    check how the Bantoe tribes colonised the southern half of Africa

    what Indo-Europeans did was normal practice worldwide

    there is a paper which shows that there was a very large shrinkage in Y DNA-diversity at the onset of the bronze age though
    it was a worldwide phenomenon
    when I have the time, I'll look up the graph

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    check for instance the haplogroup E-M81

    and there is the dominance of O in China and SE Asia, a result of multiple waves
    the last wave were the Han-Chinese which was very well organised, with an army of several 100.000
    they conquered the south, enslaved the tribes, made large infrastructure works and then have the land taken be colonised by loyal farmers from the north

    check how the Bantoe tribes colonised the southern half of Africa

    what Indo-Europeans did was normal practice worldwide

    there is a paper which shows that there was a very large shrinkage in Y DNA-diversity at the onset of the bronze age though
    it was a worldwide phenomenon
    when I have the time, I'll look up the graph

    Yes, it's interesting to notice that the Indo-European Expansion and Bantou Expansion are dated pretty much from the same time frame. Between -3000 and -1500. Wad there a worldwide climatic change? Or was it motivated because Herding?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Yes, it is hard to get a clear picture about phenotype because it´s complex. I think skin colour really isn't a big deal it´s adaption to environment and result of farming diet. Coming to 2 traits that are complicated that are light eye colour and hair colour. So we find the mutation for blue eyes in all WHG, one CHG(Satsurblia) and IIRC even in two samples from Neolithic Anatolia(they were even blond?) and later GAC,TRB and CWC have both, blue eyes and light hair in sizable frequency. For reasons I don't know it goes up in Northeastern Europe in farmer and later steppe people. Last week I read a lot of papers about the CWC from Baltic, Poland and Central Europe and I´ve come to conclusion that it is very likely that they got it from GAC. Right from the beginning CWC men mated overwhelmingly with local women and that might be the reason why CWC is lighter pigmented than Yamnaya. These men had the opportunity to choose the women they wanted keep that in mind. Another reason that is usually overlooked is that there are modern populations without steppe ancestry that have some blond and blue eyed individuals, these are Kartvelian speakers from the Caucasus. Laz people,Georgians, Armenian Hemsheni etc. In Turkey there is the stereotype that people from Trabzon are usually the lightest Turks, blond and blue eyed. About the EHG and KITLG gene IIRC KITLG is not even needed for people to have blonde hair because its frequency in Northeuropeans is 20% but there are more blondes in populations from Northern Europe and maybe even GAC and TRB have picked it up from Balkan HG or other HG like Angela wrote. I am not saying that I know it 100% but for me the picture is getting clearer paper after paper. Maybe in future papers we will find groups of Yamnaya that were blonde and blue eyed but we have a lot of samples and this culture is heavily sampled.

    I think pigmentation is predisposed by geography and diet - any peoples who stayed for long enough in the Northern Forest zone will develop light skin - foragers in the Baltic (at least some of them) were light skinned and light eyed. I think it must be related to vitamin D, it is not enough of it in river fish and nuts diet, and you don't really get any direct sunlight when living in the forest, besides, sunny days are very few here anyways. People had to develop light skin in order to survive under such conditions. Foragers who hunted seals and sea fish, differently, did not need to develop light skin, as they got enough of D vitamin from food. Somehow, when discussing pigmentation, people tend to forget about hunter gathers, which were not the same everywhere Europe, and who changed together with climate, adapting to new conditions and diets.

    It is from a study of 2018 The Genetic Prehistory of the Baltic Sea Region
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-02825-9

    Similar to other European Mesolithic hunter-gatherers, our Baltic foragers carry a high frequency of the derived HERC2 allele which codes for light iris colour, and like SHG and EHG they already possess an increased frequency of the derived alleles for SLC45A2 and SLC24A5, coding for lighter skin colour (Supplementary Table 6).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Do you have more information about the Phylogeny of Yersinia Pestis. When and where do we have samples from with Yersinia Pestis ?
    Since Yersinia pestis showed up multiple times in history. It would be interesting to compare different sanitation habits {Yamnaya pastoralists}with later fixed urban type cultures. Rome was more advanced than Medieval Europe in some respects, fine combs for parasite eggs[lice, fleas, bed bugs] , public waste houses, shared communal sponges for cleaning after defecation, human waste on streets[whipworm, roundworm] , re used in farms etc.... I would imagine the smell could have been quite pungent at times.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...-gross/423072/

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