Ancient genomes reveal social and genetic structure of Late Neolithic Switzerland

Very good, these graphs posted by Bicycleur - The case in Caucasus is not so surprising, in a world of mountainous valleys, but the cases of Europe, and China, very large and vaste countries, is more amazing to me. Africa too. By the way tehse expansions, if I read well, confirm a link between languages and Y haplos rather than between languages and female lineages.
Sure. I just didn't see Ötzi clade necessarily replacing other clades in Neo Switzerland. It could have been a founder effect.
Then I just exemplified other possible relevant "founder effects" involving G-M201 specifically.
 
What's the dating of the sample and the chronologies of Cimmerian and Scythian migrations? It seems the former arrived before, and the latter must have come in higher numbers, as far as I can see.

Curiously, I have matches with N. Italian ancestry at 23andMe that are Y-DNA Q2a1-M378 (one, from Belluno province) and mtDNA C5b1 (the other; no East Euro neither East Asian/Native American admix).


Dated 178 BC - 2 AD. Cimmerians were long gone, and we dont really have clear clue if they want as far as central-western europe, Scythians-Sarmatians is probably the best choice. Those modern y-dna Q and mtdna C5 are not that strange, and they wouldn't show east asian ancestry if their ancestors came from the east in the middle-age. Ancient Burgundian territories ( part of switzerland / france ) have some y-dna Q too.
 
Dated 178 BC - 2 AD. Cimmerians were long gone, and we dont really have clear clue if they want as far as central-western europe, Scythians-Sarmatians is probably the best choice. Those modern y-dna Q and mtdna C5 are not that strange, and they wouldn't show east asian ancestry if their ancestors came from the east in the middle-age. Ancient Burgundian territories ( part of switzerland / france ) have some y-dna Q too.
The Q is confirmed from Belluno. As for the C, I mentioned the absence of Eastern ancestry as a possible evidence the guy doesn't have recent Eastern ancestry. He has an Italian family name (common in Belluno too, coincidently) and his admix does look N. Italian, but he doesn't specify the location of the lineage.

Thraco-Cimmerian finds
Thraco-Cimmerian.png


There's a dot in your area, je je. But I agree the odds are it hasn't arrived with Cimmerians.
 
I think pigmentation is predisposed by geography and diet - any peoples who stayed for long enough in the Northern Forest zone will develop light skin - foragers in the Baltic (at least some of them) were light skinned and light eyed. I think it must be related to vitamin D, it is not enough of it in river fish and nuts diet, and you don't really get any direct sunlight when living in the forest, besides, sunny days are very few here anyways. People had to develop light skin in order to survive under such conditions. Foragers who hunted seals and sea fish, differently, did not need to develop light skin, as they got enough of D vitamin from food. Somehow, when discussing pigmentation, people tend to forget about hunter gathers, which were not the same everywhere Europe, and who changed together with climate, adapting to new conditions and diets.

It is from a study of 2018 The Genetic Prehistory of the Baltic Sea Region
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-02825-9

Similar to other European Mesolithic hunter-gatherers, our Baltic foragers carry a high frequency of the derived HERC2 allele which codes for light iris colour, and like SHG and EHG they already possess an increased frequency of the derived alleles for SLC45A2 and SLC24A5, coding for lighter skin colour (Supplementary Table 6).


I think we agree on almost everything. There was definitely some selection for lighter skin colour in Northern Europe because of less Vitamin D from sunlight, even sunny days in Winter here in Germany are rare for 3-4 months. My focus wasn't on skin colour because it is the mainstream view that it is because of geography and diet, like you wrote. I thought skin colour is not a big deal because even me with Iranian ancestry have both skin depigmentation genes and I am light skinned and so are 99% of Europeans, in my opinion skin colour variation in Europe isn't that huge. The baltic foragers and SHG have their skin depigmentation gene probably from EHG and their light eye colour gene probably from WHG when the mutations are in they get selected very fast in these regions but I am not sure why light colour also goes up in northern regions, maybe some adaption to the environment plays a role or because blue eyes are "attractive"? Btw, I also have one mutation for blue eyes but because it is a recessive trait, I am brown eyed.Anyway, i should have mentioned the baltic foragers and SHG because they beginn to lighten up like other populations in nearby regions. If I am not mistaken even in the Baltic region when the Corded ware people come in lighter traits go down at first but after a few hundert years it goes up again and in the baltic Iron Age its frequencies are close to modern levels.

Since Yersinia pestis showed up multiple times in history. It would be interesting to compare different sanitation habits {Yamnaya pastoralists}with later fixed urban type cultures. Rome was more advanced than Medieval Europe in some respects, fine combs for parasite eggs[lice, fleas, bed bugs] , public waste houses, shared communal sponges for cleaning after defecation, human waste on streets[whipworm, roundworm] , re used in farms etc.... I would imagine the smell could have been quite pungent at times.


https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/01/ancient-roman-toilets-gross/423072/

Yes, definitely. our ancestors even 250 years ago lived horrible lives compared to our lives. So the Yamnaya guys have Yersinia Pestis, we just need samples from Neolithic Europe with Yersinia Pestis and than it is clear why neolithic Europe was overrun by people from the steppe. The big settlements of the farmers would be perfect places for diseases to spread compared to small pastoralist groups with some immunity.
 
I think blue eyes are an adaptation, too, for better vision in dusk and twilight as they allow more light to enter through iris. And, vice versa, it is not good in bright sunlight.

Hunter gatherers were hunters :), after all, and hunting/fishing is best during the twilight hours (morning/evening hours when daylight changes into darkness or vice versa which is really long in the North)
MK3_7793c.jpg

And it is dark in the forest

it is a "modern" forest site during early morning hours, the primeval forest which was home for Hunter Gatherers should have been even more dense. So people had very light blue eyes for better vision in such dim light.
sventas.jpg


I absolutely like being in the forest, is it my hunter gatherer genes? ;)
 
I think we agree on almost everything. There was definitely some selection for lighter skin colour in Northern Europe because of less Vitamin D from sunlight, even sunny days in Winter here in Germany are rare for 3-4 months. My focus wasn't on skin colour because it is the mainstream view that it is because of geography and diet, like you wrote. I thought skin colour is not a big deal because even me with Iranian ancestry have both skin depigmentation genes and I am light skinned and so are 99% of Europeans, in my opinion skin colour variation in Europe isn't that huge. The baltic foragers and SHG have their skin depigmentation gene probably from EHG and their light eye colour gene probably from WHG when the mutations are in they get selected very fast in these regions but I am not sure why light colour also goes up in northern regions, maybe some adaption to the environment plays a role or because blue eyes are "attractive"? Btw, I also have one mutation for blue eyes but because it is a recessive trait, I am brown eyed.Anyway, i should have mentioned the baltic foragers and SHG because they beginn to lighten up like other populations in nearby regions. If I am not mistaken even in the Baltic region when the Corded ware people come in lighter traits go down at first but after a few hundert years it goes up again and in the baltic Iron Age its frequencies are close to modern levels.



Yes, definitely. our ancestors even 250 years ago lived horrible lives compared to our lives. So the Yamnaya guys have Yersinia Pestis, we just need samples from Neolithic Europe with Yersinia Pestis and than it is clear why neolithic Europe was overrun by people from the steppe. The big settlements of the farmers would be perfect places for diseases to spread compared to small pastoralist groups with some immunity.

Agree with you on the pigmentation issues except that I agree with Dagne about the adaptability of light eyes in certain conditions. The one that still doesn't make sense is blonde hair. We have it even in the Solomon Islands among people with dark skin. The early EHG didn't have it, but the SHG did. Perhaps it's something tied to ANE ancestry which was a recessive but in these remote northern areas it rose to prominence.

I think sexual selection is very culture specific. In the Africa of a few hundred years ago they killed albino babies, although that's perhaps an extreme example. :)

As for Yersinia Pestis, we do have cases in Europe in the Late Neolithic. Although the paper isn't exceptionally clear about the ultimate source, Kristiansen clarifies the thinking of the authors of the paper in this youtube clip of his speech.

The pertinent clarification starts at 8:45.

The whole speech is very informative.
 
the period 10-5 ka when Y-DNA diversity collapsed was indeed a period of technological innovations
societies were based on male kinship
a good example are the Maykop kurgans were chiefs were burried along with multiple woman
the same happened in southern Mesopotamia priest-king graves
I guess some tribes clinged to their traditional way of life, while others adopted and combined the new technologies in a clever way
that is how Y-DNA diversity dropped
the Yamna are a perfect example of a primitive tribe of HG who combined new technologies and became dominant on the steppe, all with the same Y-DNA
traces of violence have been observed in the Khvalynsk graves, in the neolethic and early chaloclithic Dnjepr, and during the 6,2 ka climate event in the Danube valley
afaik, violence is not observed among Yamna, alltough I'm sure there must have been at least some intertribal disputes when pastures became more scarce
it is however not violence in the first place that made Yamna occupy the whole steppe and expell other tribes from the river valleys
it is their new succesfull lifestyle which made them be more efficient in land use and grow in numbers, leaving no more space for other tribes
I guess there was some solidarity amongst Yamna tribes based on male kinship, this kind of solidarity didn't extend to other tribes
 
I think blue eyes are an adaptation, too, for better vision in dusk and twilight as they allow more light to enter through iris. And, vice versa, it is not good in bright sunlight.

Hunter gatherers were hunters :), after all, and hunting/fishing is best during the twilight hours (morning/evening hours when daylight changes into darkness or vice versa which is really long in the North)
MK3_7793c.jpg

And it is dark in the forest

it is a "modern" forest site during early morning hours, the primeval forest which was home for Hunter Gatherers should have been even more dense. So people had very light blue eyes for better vision in such dim light.
sventas.jpg


I absolutely like being in the forest, is it my hunter gatherer genes? ;)

I heard this hypothesis and it also makes sense and it is probably the best explanation why blue eyes are more widespread in Northern Europe but there are scientists like Johannes Krause who still think it is because of sexual selection. Very beautiful landscape and pictures but I am not gonna lie, I am more a mountain range guy :)

Agree with you on the pigmentation issues except that I agree with Dagne about the adaptability of light eyes in certain conditions. The one that still doesn't make sense is blonde hair. We have it even in the Solomon Islands among people with dark skin. The early EHG didn't have it, but the SHG did. Perhaps it's something tied to ANE ancestry which was a recessive but in these remote northern areas it rose to prominence.

I think sexual selection is very culture specific. In the Africa of a few hundred years ago they killed albino babies, although that's perhaps an extreme example. :)

As for Yersinia Pestis, we do have cases in Europe in the Late Neolithic. Although the paper isn't exceptionally clear about the ultimate source, Kristiansen clarifies the thinking of the authors of the paper in this youtube clip of his speech.

The pertinent clarification starts at 8:45.

The whole speech is very informative.

Thanks Angela, I am going to make me a cup of coffee and watch the Video :)

Yes, I agree there is the KITLG gene in ANE first but I am quite sure that someone can have blonde hair without this gene. I have to search for the two Anatolian Neolithic samples I mentioned earlier, if I am not mistaken they were already blonde without any ANE ancestry and so were some of GAC,TRB but the later two probably had at least some ANE ancestry. Still, hair colour is more complex than eye or skin colour because usually hair colour darkens after childhood and light hair colour is more widespread in women than men. You are probably right, maybe it isn't a coincidence that both traits are more widespread in Northern Europe and in southern regions even including Solomon Islands it usually can not reach frequencies above 30%.

Did you read the last paper about the four females from CTC ? They were tested for diseases but didn't show any sign of Yersinia Pestis or other diseases. The four females even had minor steppe ancestry.
 
the first known to have blue eyes are WHG, but they were initially tundra mammoth and reindeer hunters
the forests grew later
 
I confirm what Moesan said. This study is not just about the Neolithic, but actually more about Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age Switzerland. In the three periods described in the paper, the first (4500-2600 BCE) corresponds to the Neolithic and Chalcolithic, the second and third (2800-2200 BCE and 2200-1700 BCE) to the transitory Bell Beaker culture (Chalcolithic to the Early Bronze Age).

attachment.php


What I find the most interesting in this study is that the vast majority of Bell Beaker R1b samples belonged to the L2 clade (11 out of 14; the other being P312 or L51). In other words 100% of these Early Bronze Age Swiss R1b-U152 were L2. This confirms that L2 is predominantly 'Alpine' Celtic (related to Hallstatt and La Tène cultures), although at least one L2 branch was also found among Italics. The absence of the Z56 and Z193 clades of U152 in Bronze Age Switzerland also confirms indirectly that these were Italic rather than Celtic clades.
 
the first known to have blue eyes are WHG, but they were initially tundra mammoth and reindeer hunters
the forests grew later

If the theory about blue eyes as vision adaptation is right, then early WHG who lived in tundra and hunted mammoths should have had brown eyes and brown skin to protect against the exposure to sun.
 
If the theory about blue eyes as vision adaptation is right, then early WHG who lived in tundra and hunted mammoths should have had brown eyes and brown skin to protect against the exposure to sun.

WHG are much later than the tundra hunters, Mesolithic peoples rather than Paleolithic peoples. They hunted small game, not mammoths. They probably carried y lines like C if the Paleolithic samples from Europe are any indication, not R1b,so I don't think that's a problem for the hypothesis. Plus, dna analysis shows those Paleolithic peoples in, say, Russia, were brown eyed, and, yes, dark skinned.

By the time that WHG formed, perhaps somewhere like the Balkans, all of Europe was one big forest, so I think the vision adaptation hypothesis is one which should be studied further. Once the adaptation occurred
it could have easily undergone a sweep given the very small sign of the population .
 
@Bicicleur
What's also curious in the graph you posted is that the phenomenon would have happened everywhere at a similar time.
Well, it took a while from the beginning of Neolithic till the collapse of those civilizations, which then occurred suddenly, i.e., in relatively few time the replacement would have happened. Not necessarily, but it does look like something else favored the phenomenon, not just technology - as suggested by Angela and Moesan -, even if the latter played a role, especially in weaponry and related tools. Still, it would not have been the first nor last time that certain group overcome/defeat another one more or equally advanced in technology, for whatever reasons or previous events. Examples are Neanderthals (by AMH), earlier, and Romans, later.

If the theory about blue eyes as vision adaptation is right, then early WHG who lived in tundra and hunted mammoths should have had brown eyes and brown skin to protect against the exposure to sun.
Actually I'm not aware WHG originated in - or close to - tundra, as hg R, which would have correlated to the older ANE at the beginning (while earliest WHGs could have correlated mainly to hg I?). I may be mistaken, but I guess I read here in Eupedia that WHG would have come directly from Middle East, naturally way earlier than the "cousin" component ANF, in turn very similar to AHG (the only ancient sample associated thus far, from Epipaleolithic, belonged to hg C). Modern people most similar to AHGs seems to be in Corsica, Tuscany and Lazio, according to K36 similarity map, and likely Sardinia (the related cluster doesn't work well in K36, since Sardinia is drifted and equals West Med in the calc):
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38152-Anatolian-Hunter-Gatherer-GEDmatch
Iranian farmer component could have correlated originally with hg G more strongly, perhaps, since G poped up in Anatolia at AAF period together with some Iranian Farmer ancestry; CHG, mainly J.

ED: I love mountains and forests as well, but I likely have very few WHG genes. :)
 
WHG are much later than the tundra hunters, Mesolithic peoples rather than Paleolithic peoples. They hunted small game, not mammoths. They probably carried y lines like C if the Paleolithic samples from Europe are any indication, not R1b,so I don't think that's a problem for the hypothesis. Plus, dna analysis shows those Paleolithic peoples in, say, Russia, were brown eyed, and, yes, dark skinned.

By the time that WHG formed, perhaps somewhere like the Balkans, all of Europe was one big forest, so I think the vision adaptation hypothesis is one which should be studied further. Once the adaptation occurred
it could have easily undergone a sweep given the very small sign of the population .
Oh. Is it Balkan? I thought Middle East. Ok then.
Which component in Europe was replaced by WHG? I just remember they were hg C.
 
TU905 (X18) mtdna B4c1b2c2
That's great question since he doesn't show anything eastern in his autosomal.... 🤔
 
TU905 (X18) mtdna B4c1b2c2
That's great question since he doesn't show anything eastern in his autosomal.... 🤔
Really curious. Wikipedia informs "B4c1b2c2 - China, Taiwan (Hakka, etc.), Vietnam (Kinh, La Hủ), Thailand (Khon Mueang in Chiang Mai Province)".
 
We've discussed the violence in steppe societies numerous times on this site on numerous threads, a conclusion drawn from numerous papers. It just never seems to stick.

Here we go again...


Up to 20% of skeletons examined in Yamnaya settlements showed evidence of violence. If you remove the few women whom they bothered to bury and didn't just leave for the animals, the percentage would be even higher. The percentages were lower later on in settlements like Srubnaya which the authors attribute to the fact that resources weren't quite as scarce.

I don't know what samples people like David Anthony and Kristiansen were looking at, from which time period, when they stated the steppe peoples were strong and healthy and this could partly explain their success further west in Europe. Someone should show them the percentages here for congenital skeletal malformations. There is, however, a contradiction in their own data to the hypothesis that there was less violence in later periods such as Srubnaya because resources weren't quite as scarce in the fact that health and stature decreased from Yamnaya to Srubnaya. It particularly decreased in women. So their treatment was obviously worsening with time.

They also had a high percentage of skeletal lesions which the authors claim are caused by lack of Vitamin C, D and certain B vitamins, poor hygiene, and infectious diseases. Likewise, the percentages for dental hypoplasia, indicative of nutritional distress in childhood is astronomical throughout these cultures.

All of these nutritionally related issues were much higher in women than in men, even in childhood.

In line with our discussions here, the skeletons showed little change as a result of infectious processes, and they had no caries. However, they obviously never cleaned their teeth, because evidence of gingivitus was high.

Now, I'm not claiming that some of these issues might not have been prevalent in Neolithic Europe. I know I looked it up once, but didn't keep the papers.

My point is that I don't get these statements about how much healthier they were.

[FONT=&quot]That would have only occurred in Corded Ware when they took land from cultures like Globular Amphora and turned it into pasturage. From their stolen Neolithic women they adopted pottery, and probably the intensive cheese making of these late Neolithic cultures.
[/FONT]
https://pureadmin.qub.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/42562597/CHAPTER_8_Murphy_and_Khokhlov_pdf.pdf[FONT=&quot]

Which brings me to the institutionalilzed violence exemplified in their "marriage" patterns. This is what comes of polygamy...more violence.

"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]They describe, as a typical feature of these societies, the formation of warrior youth bands consisting of boys from 12–13 up to 18–19 years of age, when they were ready to enter the ranks of fully grown warriors. Such youthful war-bands were led by a senior male, and they were often named ‘Black Youth’ or given names of dogs and wolves as part of their initiation rituals. The nature of this institution was recently summarised as follows:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]In the Indo-European past, the boys first moved into the category of the (armed) youths and then, as members of the war-band of unmarried and landless young men, engaged in predatory wolf-like behaviour on the edges of ordinary society, living off hunting and raiding with their older trainers/models. Then about the age of twenty they entered into the tribe proper as adults (Petrosyan 2011: 345).
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The activities of the young war-bands were seasonal; during the rest of the year they lived within their households and communities, perhaps engaged in herding animals and other forms of farm labour. Such bands were mainly made up of younger sons, as inheritance was restricted to the oldest son. Thus, they formed a dynamic force that could be employed in pioneer migrations (Sergent 2003). Archaeological evidence of this institution has been documented in the Russian steppe from the Bronze Age onwards (Pike-Tay & Anthony 2016; Brown & Anthony in press).[/FONT][FONT=&quot]There is additional evidence to support the idea that males dominated the initial Yamnaya migrations and the formation of the early Corded Ware Culture: in burials from the earliest horizon, often with males, as in Tiefbrunn and Kujawy, there was no typical Corded Ware material culture. This was followed shortly afterwards by the deposit of A-type battle-axes in male burials, but there was as yet no pottery (Furholt 2014: 6, fig. 3). Corded Ware pottery appeared later in Northern Europe, and we may suggest that this did not happen until women with ceramic skills married into this culture and started to copy wooden, leather and woven containers in clay. This process began in the early phase both south and north of the Carpathians (Ivanova 2013; Frînculeasa et al. 2015)."
We may also note that pastoral economies historically tend to dominate agrarian economies, as they are both more mobile and more warlike in their behaviour. Such a pattern of economic and social dominance, reflected in taking wives from farming cultures while sending young males in organised war-bands to settle in new territories, would explain both the genetic and linguistic dominance of the Yamnaya steppe migrations, the results of which we can observe to this day..

How this can be seen as anything but institutionalized and ritualized violence is beyond me.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour.../E35E6057F48118AFAC191BDFBB1EB30E/core-reader

There's also a paper from a much later period of the Indo-Iranians which does show better health and less evidence of violence. Of course, they were acquiring pasturage and encountering few adversaries, but of course, this has nothing to do with the original steppe peoples who entered Europe.
"The low frequencies of violence-related trauma contrast sharply to the epidemic of skeletal violence observed during the Iron Age (8th-2nd centuries BC) at other regional sites, notably Aymyrlyg (Murphy, 2003). The paucity of weapon-related injuries among the Bronze Age groups may be the outcome of many factors. While weapons and chariots did exist, they could have had multi-functional contexts aside from warfare. Individuals killed in warfare may not be present if bodies were abandoned on battlefields or disposed of where the individual died. Alternatively, warfare may have involved the capture of humans in addition to material resources, such as herds or weapons, leaving no skeletal trace of physical violence (Martin, Harrod, & Fields, 2010; Wilkinson, 1997). Trauma analysis is further complicated by the lack of soft tissue, which is the target for those attempting to kill or immobilize their opponent (Judd, 2008; Judd & Redfern, 2012), and it is possible that violence-related injuries or burns sustained from metallurgy were absent because only the soft tissue was affected. The skeletal evidence for trauma is minimal at KA-5 and its contemporary sites, which may be partially attributed to the less than desirable preservation of the collections. Based on the skeletal material available, internal or external social tensions resulting in altercations are not supported."
https://indo-european.eu/2018/04/fa...le-and-unstable-early-indo-iranian-territory/

This is always the problem when there are discussions about the "steppe" people. No such discussion is fruitful unless you look at the context in terms of culture, time period, changing genetics and patterns of eating, etc.

Oh, one further point about the paper's conclusion concerning the long length of time for "Neolithic" culture and presumably "y lines" to disappear. .It very much depends on the area. It disappeared in Britain in two to three centuries.[/FONT]
practices shifted dramatically, a warrior classappeared, and there seems to have been asharp upsurge in lethal violence. “I’ve becomeincreasingly convinced there must have beena kind of genocide,” says Kristian Kristiansenat the University of Gothenburg, Sweden.
 
Oh. Is it Balkan? I thought Middle East. Ok then.
Which component in Europe was replaced by WHG? I just remember they were hg C.


Almost all the Paleolithic ancestry was replaced. Only tiny bits of it remain.
 
@kingjohn @Regio X

Really curious. Wikipedia informs "B4c1b2c2 - China, Taiwan (Hakka, etc.), Vietnam (Kinh, La Hủ), Thailand (Khon Mueang in Chiang Mai Province)".

TU905 (X18) mtdna B4c1b2c2
That's great question since he doesn't show anything eastern in his autosomal.... ������

In fact, interesting, considering that it is an individual whose dating of the remains dates from the period 178BC-2AD, much time before the arrival of Huns, Avars, Alans and Magyars to Central Europe.

https://static-content.springer.com...MediaObjects/41467_2020_15560_MOESM2_ESM.xlsx
 
We've discussed the violence in steppe societies numerous times on this site on numerous threads, a conclusion drawn from numerous papers. It just never seems to stick.

Here we go again...


Up to 20% of skeletons examined in Yamnaya settlements showed evidence of violence. If you remove the few women whom they bothered to bury and didn't just leave for the animals, the percentage would be even higher. The percentages were lower later on in settlements like Srubnaya which the authors attribute to the fact that resources weren't quite as scarce.

I don't know what samples people like David Anthony and Kristiansen were looking at, from which time period, when they stated the steppe peoples were strong and healthy and this could partly explain their success further west in Europe. Someone should show them the percentages here for congenital skeletal malformations. There is, however, a contradiction in their own data to the hypothesis that there was less violence in later periods such as Srubnaya because resources weren't quite as scarce in the fact that health and stature decreased from Yamnaya to Srubnaya. It particularly decreased in women. So their treatment was obviously worsening with time.

They also had a high percentage of skeletal lesions which the authors claim are caused by lack of Vitamin C, D and certain B vitamins, poor hygiene, and infectious diseases. Likewise, the percentages for dental hypoplasia, indicative of nutritional distress in childhood is astronomical throughout these cultures.

All of these nutritionally related issues were much higher in women than in men, even in childhood.

In line with our discussions here, the skeletons showed little change as a result of infectious processes, and they had no caries. However, they obviously never cleaned their teeth, because evidence of gingivitus was high.

Now, I'm not claiming that some of these issues might not have been prevalent in Neolithic Europe. I know I looked it up once, but didn't keep the papers.

My point is that I don't get these statements about how much healthier they were.

[FONT=&quot]That would have only occurred in Corded Ware when they took land from cultures like Globular Amphora and turned it into pasturage. From their stolen Neolithic women they adopted pottery, and probably the intensive cheese making of these late Neolithic cultures.
[/FONT]
https://pureadmin.qub.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/42562597/CHAPTER_8_Murphy_and_Khokhlov_pdf.pdf[FONT=&quot]

Which brings me to the institutionalilzed violence exemplified in their "marriage" patterns. This is what comes of polygamy...more violence.

"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]They describe, as a typical feature of these societies, the formation of warrior youth bands consisting of boys from 12–13 up to 18–19 years of age, when they were ready to enter the ranks of fully grown warriors. Such youthful war-bands were led by a senior male, and they were often named ‘Black Youth’ or given names of dogs and wolves as part of their initiation rituals. The nature of this institution was recently summarised as follows:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]In the Indo-European past, the boys first moved into the category of the (armed) youths and then, as members of the war-band of unmarried and landless young men, engaged in predatory wolf-like behaviour on the edges of ordinary society, living off hunting and raiding with their older trainers/models. Then about the age of twenty they entered into the tribe proper as adults (Petrosyan 2011: 345).
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The activities of the young war-bands were seasonal; during the rest of the year they lived within their households and communities, perhaps engaged in herding animals and other forms of farm labour. Such bands were mainly made up of younger sons, as inheritance was restricted to the oldest son. Thus, they formed a dynamic force that could be employed in pioneer migrations (Sergent 2003). Archaeological evidence of this institution has been documented in the Russian steppe from the Bronze Age onwards (Pike-Tay & Anthony 2016; Brown & Anthony in press).[/FONT][FONT=&quot]There is additional evidence to support the idea that males dominated the initial Yamnaya migrations and the formation of the early Corded Ware Culture: in burials from the earliest horizon, often with males, as in Tiefbrunn and Kujawy, there was no typical Corded Ware material culture. This was followed shortly afterwards by the deposit of A-type battle-axes in male burials, but there was as yet no pottery (Furholt 2014: 6, fig. 3). Corded Ware pottery appeared later in Northern Europe, and we may suggest that this did not happen until women with ceramic skills married into this culture and started to copy wooden, leather and woven containers in clay. This process began in the early phase both south and north of the Carpathians (Ivanova 2013; Frînculeasa et al. 2015)."
We may also note that pastoral economies historically tend to dominate agrarian economies, as they are both more mobile and more warlike in their behaviour. Such a pattern of economic and social dominance, reflected in taking wives from farming cultures while sending young males in organised war-bands to settle in new territories, would explain both the genetic and linguistic dominance of the Yamnaya steppe migrations, the results of which we can observe to this day..

How this can be seen as anything but institutionalized and ritualized violence is beyond me.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour.../E35E6057F48118AFAC191BDFBB1EB30E/core-reader

There's also a paper from a much later period of the Indo-Iranians which does show better health and less evidence of violence. Of course, they were acquiring pasturage and encountering few adversaries, but of course, this has nothing to do with the original steppe peoples who entered Europe.
"The low frequencies of violence-related trauma contrast sharply to the epidemic of skeletal violence observed during the Iron Age (8th-2nd centuries BC) at other regional sites, notably Aymyrlyg (Murphy, 2003). The paucity of weapon-related injuries among the Bronze Age groups may be the outcome of many factors. While weapons and chariots did exist, they could have had multi-functional contexts aside from warfare. Individuals killed in warfare may not be present if bodies were abandoned on battlefields or disposed of where the individual died. Alternatively, warfare may have involved the capture of humans in addition to material resources, such as herds or weapons, leaving no skeletal trace of physical violence (Martin, Harrod, & Fields, 2010; Wilkinson, 1997). Trauma analysis is further complicated by the lack of soft tissue, which is the target for those attempting to kill or immobilize their opponent (Judd, 2008; Judd & Redfern, 2012), and it is possible that violence-related injuries or burns sustained from metallurgy were absent because only the soft tissue was affected. The skeletal evidence for trauma is minimal at KA-5 and its contemporary sites, which may be partially attributed to the less than desirable preservation of the collections. Based on the skeletal material available, internal or external social tensions resulting in altercations are not supported."
https://indo-european.eu/2018/04/fa...le-and-unstable-early-indo-iranian-territory/

This is always the problem when there are discussions about the "steppe" people. No such discussion is fruitful unless you look at the context in terms of culture, time period, changing genetics and patterns of eating, etc.

Oh, one further point about the paper's conclusion concerning the long length of time for "Neolithic" culture and presumably "y lines" to disappear. .It very much depends on the area. It disappeared in Britain in two to three centuries.[/FONT]
practices shifted dramatically, a warrior classappeared, and there seems to have been asharp upsurge in lethal violence. “I’ve becomeincreasingly convinced there must have beena kind of genocide,” says Kristian Kristiansenat the University of Gothenburg, Sweden.
It's complex, as always. :) Here are my two cents.
Apart some evidences or facts being discussed (I won't talk on them), perhaps this conflict of ideas originates from different contexts? One refers to culture in broad sense, which is not entirely determined by genetics, naturally, and the other refers to human nature in broad sense. I tend to agree that cultures are different in many relevant aspects, and we can see it in the world we live, as there are important differences between individuals belonging to the same ethnical group. It looks obvious, but we may miss it sometimes*. I also tend to agree that different groups of people would be prone to acting in a "similar" way under the same "pressures", or cultural forces. I say "similar" because, while we're all human and there is this nature we share, variations are expected, even if small, since genetics itself is influenced also by environment.

One related example that comes to my mind is South Korea vs. North Korea. So similar, and so different.

Btw, don't they say a group may act as a psycho without most of members of the group being actual psychos? :)

*Just a silly example. I remember this talk I had with a Canadian time ago. I said him that one problem in Brazil is violence. He answered "oh! Here in Canada we also have violence. It's really a problem." Later I commented about the notorious corruption Brazil faces, then he answered in the same fashion: "That's a problem also in Canada".
The statements are not wrong per se, but relevant dimensions were not considered by him. Someone who doesn't know anything about both countries would think they're the same in these aspects, and they're not, whatever the reasons are.
 
Last edited:

This thread has been viewed 55468 times.

Back
Top