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Thread: Ancient genomes reveal social and genetic structure of Late Neolithic Switzerland

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    My reading of the papers is that there were not. I'm aware of all the myth making or myth re-telling that dominated pop gen sites for years, i.e. the whole horse riding, bronze sword waving knights of the steppe invading Europe, but I said then, and I think an objective reading of the papers shows now that was not true. (David Anthony was, unfortunately, the genesis for some of that.) It was a back projection of cultures like those of the Scythians and Cimmerians of a time much later.

    What the papers, which you should be able to find both on here (it was debated endlessly) and through search engines, show, to the best of my recollection, is that when Corded Ware, for example, entered Europe, they probably came with oxen driven carts. There are very few horse burials, and no evidence they were ridden, although they were prized. That all came much later, like the invention of the light, round wheeled chariots, and the fighting while horse riding even later imo.

    In terms of weapons, they had no bronze and extremely little copper of any kind, certainly not weapons made of them. There was much more copper in "Old Europe". At that point in time the steppe people had very rudimentary metals technology. That all started later. So it wood have been axes and bows and arrows, and daggers for close in fighting. Even the wrist guards are held by some to have been adopted from the European farmers.

    The papers are all there if you look for them.

    I said then and I still maintain now that the cultures of "Old Europe" were decimated by bad harvests caused by some climate change issues, perhaps ecological damage, and disease, likely plague brought in through very early sporadic contact with the east, as well as other diseases likely to have spread in crowded agricultural settlements.

    In addition to encountering weakened societies, while they themselves had some more immunity to the plague, the steppe people had a more herding centric life style more adapted to the changing situation and a propensity for spread out small groups of people more conducive to reducing the spread of disease. Sound familiar? :)

    While I completely agree that Gimbutas was wrong in her emphasis on the "peacefulness" of the Neolithic settlements, it seems very plausible going by what we know of the rituals of the steppe people, the sending out of young boys and men to forcibly acquire land and wealth, that their culture was probably also more warlike. While women in the Neolithic societies did not have the status Gimbutas claimed, I think a case could be made that they had a more important role, and perhaps they were more equitably treated, if the relative amount of food given to them was much the same as was given to men. That certainly wasn't the case with the steppe groups, and it wasn't the case even much later with the Langobards.
    Thank you again for your response, Angela. Very clarifying for me.
    I hope I can read more about all this stuff in the future, including most of these papers on ancient DNAs. :)

    As for Y marks, high population would be one factor that avoid random extinctions, it seems.
    Just for example, imagine if the so-called "barbarians" had the will and the ways to "replace" us. We'd have nowadays much more R-U106 and I1 than we have, and much less R-U152 (which is btw my maternal grandfather's lineage) in North Italy. Or the opposite: Romans in the North before that.
    I know, I know... It's a big "if", actually disconnected to these people as we know them. :)
    What I mean is that there's a range of variables/contexts involved in this Y phenomenon. I believe everyone would agree with that.

    Fascinating stuff. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    check for instance the haplogroup E-M81
    and there is the dominance of O in China and SE Asia, a result of multiple waves
    the last wave were the Han-Chinese which was very well organised, with an army of several 100.000
    they conquered the south, enslaved the tribes, made large infrastructure works and then have the land taken be colonised by loyal farmers from the north
    check how the Bantoe tribes colonised the southern half of Africa
    what Indo-Europeans did was normal practice worldwide
    there is a paper which shows that there was a very large shrinkage in Y DNA-diversity at the onset of the bronze age though
    it was a worldwide phenomenon
    when I have the time, I'll look up the graph
    Hg O is very old. If we're talking on some specific young subclade, then ok.
    E-M81 seems a good example, yes, of a recent clade (TMRCA is young - even younger than R-L151's) being very frequent in a populous area (North Africa). Thanks.
    Well, perhaps this high population we have nowadays is one reason why I found the phenomenon that impressive. Possibly it'd become a bit less impressive looking to this configuration when it was just settled, many years ago, way before this huge populational growth from recent times. :)
    Btw, as I suggested in another thread, given the fact that certain clades may suffer special relative expansions everytime and everywhere for some casual reasons (including founder effects, but not only, and including somewhat stable societies), the "tendency" is that these reasons link to the most frequent (ancestor) clades in the group involved, which would imply another tendency of an already frequent hg becoming even more frequent along the time. It'd be just one factor, of course, and that's generally speaking. I called this phenomenon "(Y) inertia", and I also compared it to a "wave", but it may stop anytime and "recede", so to speak, for whatever reasons/correlations (as replacements, but then the logic would apply to the newcomers'). It may be a "recursive" process, in a given context.
    Well, never mind. That's another story, offtopic and certainly too complex to be detailed here; plus, while it's interesting per se, I'm affraid the writer and the readers would also feel bored. :)
    All that said, we were also talking on replacement. Depending on the situation just before this recent expansion of E-M81, for example, the parallel with IEs would be even "stronger".
    Out ot curiosity, Maciamo's hypotheses regarding E-M81:
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...ml#M81_origins

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Thank you again for your response, Angela. Very clarifying for me.
    I hope I can read more about all this stuff in the future, including most of these papers on ancient DNAs. :)
    As for Y marks, high population would be one factor that avoid random extinctions, it seems.
    Just for example, imagine if the so-called "barbarians" had the will and the ways to "replace" us. We'd have nowadays much more R-U106 and I1 than we have, and much less R-U152 (which is btw my maternal grandfather's lineage) in North Italy. Or the opposite: Romans in the North before that.
    I know, I know... It's a big "if", actually disconnected to these people as we know them. :)
    What I mean is that there's a range of variables/contexts involved in this Y phenomenon. I believe everyone would agree with that.
    Fascinating stuff. :)
    Hg O is very old. If we're talking on some specific young subclade, then ok.
    E-M81 seems a good example, yes, of a recent clade (TMRCA is young - even younger than R-L151's) being very frequent in a populous area (North Africa). Thanks.
    Well, perhaps this high population we have nowadays is one reason why I found the phenomenon that impressive. Possibly it'd become a bit less impressive looking to this configuration when it was just settled, many years ago, way before this huge populational growth from recent times. :)
    Btw, as I suggested in another thread, given the fact that certain clades may suffer special relative expansions everytime and everywhere for some casual reasons (including founder effects, but not only, and including somewhat stable societies), the "tendency" is that these reasons link to the most frequent (ancestor) clades in the group involved, which would imply another tendency of an already frequent hg becoming even more frequent along the time. It'd be just one factor, of course, and that's generally speaking. I called this phenomenon "(Y) inertia", and I also compared it to a "wave", but it may stop anytime and "recede", so to speak, for whatever reasons/correlations (as replacements, but then the logic would apply to the newcomers'). Well, never mind. That's another story, offtopic and certainly too complex to be detailed here; plus, while it's interesting per se, I'm affraid the writer and the readers would also feel bored. :)
    All that said, we were also talking on replacement. Depending on the situation just before this recent expansion of E-M81, for example, the parallel with IEs would be even "stronger".
    Out ot curiosity, Maciamo's hypotheses regarding E-M81:
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...ml#M81_origins
    here you have the graph

    I guess the phenomenon already existed since the paleolithic, it's just human nature
    but on the graph you see it was very outspoken ca 5 ka
    and Europe certainly wasn't an exception
    Africa seems to have been lagging in time a bit, I think it is due to the Bantu expansion 3-2,5 ka
    I agree haplo O is very old
    and there were several waves of expansion
    maybe you should check its subclade M1706
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/O-M1706/
    it probably originated in early Yangshao culture, the origin of Sino-Tibetan languages

    here is another one, the Cushitic clade E-V32
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V32/

    still very much present in the Horn of Africa
    but probably many of its sublcades further inland became extinct due to Nilotic and Arabic expansions which happened later

    I guess the same happened to G-PF3239 or G-L166 which seems in this study to be omnipresent in neolithic Switzerland, and to which also ötzi belonged
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-PF3239/

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    here you have the graph

    I guess the phenomenon already existed since the paleolithic, it's just human nature
    but on the graph you see it was very outspoken ca 5 ka
    and Europe certainly wasn't an exception
    Africa seems to have been lagging in time a bit, I think it is due to the Bantu expansion 3-2,5 ka
    I agree haplo O is very old
    and there were several waves of expansion
    maybe you should check its subclade M1706
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/O-M1706/
    it probably originated in early Yangshao culture, the origin of Sino-Tibetan languages
    Awesome graph, Bicicleur. Very informative.
    Yeah, human nature is certainly an important part of it.

    I'll check hg O closer, yes.
    Thanks!

    ED: Regarding Ötzi's clade, it could be a mere founder effect by a very first farmer group in a previous depopulated area, no?
    Another G-M201 founder effects would be in Circassia, Ossetia, W. Georgia more broadly, where its diversity is relatively low. Curiously, the SNP diversity in Armenia would be high, whereas the frequency in there is very low; so the opposite to N. Caucasus.
    Last edited by Regio X; 26-04-20 at 17:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    As I said in another thread, G2 and R1b have a similar TMRCA, but based on YFull data, at about 6800 years ago G2 as a whole had more than 40 lineages that survived to our days, despite the huge decline in LN. R1b had about the half, if I checked it right.
    Forgot to mention that the Scientific view of YFul tree facilitates it.
    https://www.yfull.com/sc/tree/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Since Yersinia pestis showed up multiple times in history. It would be interesting to compare different sanitation habits {Yamnaya pastoralists}with later fixed urban type cultures. Rome was more advanced than Medieval Europe in some respects, fine combs for parasite eggs[lice, fleas, bed bugs] , public waste houses, shared communal sponges for cleaning after defecation, human waste on streets[whipworm, roundworm] , re used in farms etc.... I would imagine the smell could have been quite pungent at times.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...-gross/423072/
    Far worse in Medieval times, as there were no sewers. They just went to the window, opened it, and threw the contents of the "chamber pots" out the window onto the streets below. I read somewhere that's why gentlemen were supposed to walk on the street side: they'd get hit, not the woman. :) Probably had something to do with careening horses too.

    As for the castles, it just went down the side of the wall outside the defecating room. They don't show that in the movies! :) I've always been particularly grossed out by the whole rushes on the floor of living quarters thing. Tossed bird legs, dog fleas, dog feces, mouse droppings, goodness knows what else. Most of the time when the smell got too bad they just threw some more hay on it, and some flowers. Give me tile floors anytime. That's why royalty moved from castle to castle, so they could be "freshened".

    Victorian England wasn't much better, hence all the typhus.

    Oh, the communal sponges went into a pail with some sort of cleaning agent. Still gross.

    It's possible if you're defecating in the open air in some designated spot it would be more "healthy", assuming they knew enough not to do it near running water, and especially not upstream of the areas from which they drank and cooked.

    All of that would be important for diseases like typhus and cholera, but other diseases have other vectors. Look at the American Indians: most of them died from airborne or flea borne illnesses to which Europeans were more immune, the fleas arriving on trade goods, not from rats.

    Actually, the ritual ablutions and food rituals practiced by Medieval Jews are speculated to have exposed them somewhat less to the plague, which was used as a reason to slaughter them, sometimes by burning them alive. Better to have burned their own filthy dwellings and start over.


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    Any clue how sample [ TU905 (X18) mtdna B4c1b2c2 ] could have ended in Iron Age Europe? Scythians or Cimmerians?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    It seems dense accumulation of sedentary population favours diseases like plagues. These traditions of regular burnings of houses in the big towns of Cucuteni/Tripolje cultures could show it maybe?
    At times close enough to Bronze, the big towns of N-Balkans/Hungary tended to be replaced by a net of smaller villages, even if we can put this on the account of newcomers perturbating the ancient ways of life or changes in the trades network, this health aspect could be a cause too? Not only a question of habits or feeding? Just a question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Awesome graph, Bicicleur. Very informative.
    Yeah, human nature is certainly an important part of it.

    I'll check hg O closer, yes.
    Thanks!

    ED: Regarding Ötzi's clade, it could be a mere founder effect by a very first farmer group in a previous depopulated area, no?
    Another G-M201 founder effects would be in Circassia, Ossetia, W. Georgia more broadly, where its diversity is relatively low. Curiously, the SNP diversity in Armenia would be high, whereas the frequency in there is very low; so the opposite to N. Caucasus.

    Very good, these graphs posted by Bicycleur - The case in Caucasus is not so surprising, in a world of mountainous valleys, but the cases of Europe, and China, very large and vaste countries, is more amazing to me. Africa too. By the way tehse expansions, if I read well, confirm a link between languages and Y haplos rather than between languages and female lineages.

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    Surely more than a cause converged to produce these results.
    what I see, and it could deserve some attention, is that the regions where some supposed "barbaric" Y-haplo's dominate strongly are the regions which seems to me a bit at the "tail" in Final-Neolithic beginning of Chalco - in other regions the Y haplo diversity seems greater to me, was it already the case then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Any clue how sample [ TU905 (X18) mtdna B4c1b2c2 ] could have ended in Iron Age Europe? Scythians or Cimmerians?
    What's the dating of the sample and the chronologies of Cimmerian and Scythian migrations? It seems the former arrived before, and the latter must have come in higher numbers, as far as I can see.

    Curiously, I have matches with N. Italian ancestry at 23andMe that are Y-DNA Q2a1-M378 (one, from Belluno province) and mtDNA C5b1 (the other; no East Euro neither East Asian/Native American admix).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Very good, these graphs posted by Bicycleur - The case in Caucasus is not so surprising, in a world of mountainous valleys, but the cases of Europe, and China, very large and vaste countries, is more amazing to me. Africa too. By the way tehse expansions, if I read well, confirm a link between languages and Y haplos rather than between languages and female lineages.
    Sure. I just didn't see Ötzi clade necessarily replacing other clades in Neo Switzerland. It could have been a founder effect.
    Then I just exemplified other possible relevant "founder effects" involving G-M201 specifically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    What's the dating of the sample and the chronologies of Cimmerian and Scythian migrations? It seems the former arrived before, and the latter must have come in higher numbers, as far as I can see.

    Curiously, I have matches with N. Italian ancestry at 23andMe that are Y-DNA Q2a1-M378 (one, from Belluno province) and mtDNA C5b1 (the other; no East Euro neither East Asian/Native American admix).

    Dated 178 BC - 2 AD. Cimmerians were long gone, and we dont really have clear clue if they want as far as central-western europe, Scythians-Sarmatians is probably the best choice. Those modern y-dna Q and mtdna C5 are not that strange, and they wouldn't show east asian ancestry if their ancestors came from the east in the middle-age. Ancient Burgundian territories ( part of switzerland / france ) have some y-dna Q too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Dated 178 BC - 2 AD. Cimmerians were long gone, and we dont really have clear clue if they want as far as central-western europe, Scythians-Sarmatians is probably the best choice. Those modern y-dna Q and mtdna C5 are not that strange, and they wouldn't show east asian ancestry if their ancestors came from the east in the middle-age. Ancient Burgundian territories ( part of switzerland / france ) have some y-dna Q too.
    The Q is confirmed from Belluno. As for the C, I mentioned the absence of Eastern ancestry as a possible evidence the guy doesn't have recent Eastern ancestry. He has an Italian family name (common in Belluno too, coincidently) and his admix does look N. Italian, but he doesn't specify the location of the lineage.

    Thraco-Cimmerian finds


    There's a dot in your area, je je. But I agree the odds are it hasn't arrived with Cimmerians.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    I think pigmentation is predisposed by geography and diet - any peoples who stayed for long enough in the Northern Forest zone will develop light skin - foragers in the Baltic (at least some of them) were light skinned and light eyed. I think it must be related to vitamin D, it is not enough of it in river fish and nuts diet, and you don't really get any direct sunlight when living in the forest, besides, sunny days are very few here anyways. People had to develop light skin in order to survive under such conditions. Foragers who hunted seals and sea fish, differently, did not need to develop light skin, as they got enough of D vitamin from food. Somehow, when discussing pigmentation, people tend to forget about hunter gathers, which were not the same everywhere Europe, and who changed together with climate, adapting to new conditions and diets.

    It is from a study of 2018 The Genetic Prehistory of the Baltic Sea Region
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-02825-9

    Similar to other European Mesolithic hunter-gatherers, our Baltic foragers carry a high frequency of the derived HERC2 allele which codes for light iris colour, and like SHG and EHG they already possess an increased frequency of the derived alleles for SLC45A2 and SLC24A5, coding for lighter skin colour (Supplementary Table 6).

    I think we agree on almost everything. There was definitely some selection for lighter skin colour in Northern Europe because of less Vitamin D from sunlight, even sunny days in Winter here in Germany are rare for 3-4 months. My focus wasn't on skin colour because it is the mainstream view that it is because of geography and diet, like you wrote. I thought skin colour is not a big deal because even me with Iranian ancestry have both skin depigmentation genes and I am light skinned and so are 99% of Europeans, in my opinion skin colour variation in Europe isn't that huge. The baltic foragers and SHG have their skin depigmentation gene probably from EHG and their light eye colour gene probably from WHG when the mutations are in they get selected very fast in these regions but I am not sure why light colour also goes up in northern regions, maybe some adaption to the environment plays a role or because blue eyes are "attractive"? Btw, I also have one mutation for blue eyes but because it is a recessive trait, I am brown eyed.Anyway, i should have mentioned the baltic foragers and SHG because they beginn to lighten up like other populations in nearby regions. If I am not mistaken even in the Baltic region when the Corded ware people come in lighter traits go down at first but after a few hundert years it goes up again and in the baltic Iron Age its frequencies are close to modern levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Since Yersinia pestis showed up multiple times in history. It would be interesting to compare different sanitation habits {Yamnaya pastoralists}with later fixed urban type cultures. Rome was more advanced than Medieval Europe in some respects, fine combs for parasite eggs[lice, fleas, bed bugs] , public waste houses, shared communal sponges for cleaning after defecation, human waste on streets[whipworm, roundworm] , re used in farms etc.... I would imagine the smell could have been quite pungent at times.


    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...-gross/423072/
    Yes, definitely. our ancestors even 250 years ago lived horrible lives compared to our lives. So the Yamnaya guys have Yersinia Pestis, we just need samples from Neolithic Europe with Yersinia Pestis and than it is clear why neolithic Europe was overrun by people from the steppe. The big settlements of the farmers would be perfect places for diseases to spread compared to small pastoralist groups with some immunity.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    I think blue eyes are an adaptation, too, for better vision in dusk and twilight as they allow more light to enter through iris. And, vice versa, it is not good in bright sunlight.

    Hunter gatherers were hunters :), after all, and hunting/fishing is best during the twilight hours (morning/evening hours when daylight changes into darkness or vice versa which is really long in the North)

    And it is dark in the forest

    it is a "modern" forest site during early morning hours, the primeval forest which was home for Hunter Gatherers should have been even more dense. So people had very light blue eyes for better vision in such dim light.


    I absolutely like being in the forest, is it my hunter gatherer genes? ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    I think we agree on almost everything. There was definitely some selection for lighter skin colour in Northern Europe because of less Vitamin D from sunlight, even sunny days in Winter here in Germany are rare for 3-4 months. My focus wasn't on skin colour because it is the mainstream view that it is because of geography and diet, like you wrote. I thought skin colour is not a big deal because even me with Iranian ancestry have both skin depigmentation genes and I am light skinned and so are 99% of Europeans, in my opinion skin colour variation in Europe isn't that huge. The baltic foragers and SHG have their skin depigmentation gene probably from EHG and their light eye colour gene probably from WHG when the mutations are in they get selected very fast in these regions but I am not sure why light colour also goes up in northern regions, maybe some adaption to the environment plays a role or because blue eyes are "attractive"? Btw, I also have one mutation for blue eyes but because it is a recessive trait, I am brown eyed.Anyway, i should have mentioned the baltic foragers and SHG because they beginn to lighten up like other populations in nearby regions. If I am not mistaken even in the Baltic region when the Corded ware people come in lighter traits go down at first but after a few hundert years it goes up again and in the baltic Iron Age its frequencies are close to modern levels.



    Yes, definitely. our ancestors even 250 years ago lived horrible lives compared to our lives. So the Yamnaya guys have Yersinia Pestis, we just need samples from Neolithic Europe with Yersinia Pestis and than it is clear why neolithic Europe was overrun by people from the steppe. The big settlements of the farmers would be perfect places for diseases to spread compared to small pastoralist groups with some immunity.
    Agree with you on the pigmentation issues except that I agree with Dagne about the adaptability of light eyes in certain conditions. The one that still doesn't make sense is blonde hair. We have it even in the Solomon Islands among people with dark skin. The early EHG didn't have it, but the SHG did. Perhaps it's something tied to ANE ancestry which was a recessive but in these remote northern areas it rose to prominence.

    I think sexual selection is very culture specific. In the Africa of a few hundred years ago they killed albino babies, although that's perhaps an extreme example. :)

    As for Yersinia Pestis, we do have cases in Europe in the Late Neolithic. Although the paper isn't exceptionally clear about the ultimate source, Kristiansen clarifies the thinking of the authors of the paper in this youtube clip of his speech.

    The pertinent clarification starts at 8:45.


    The whole speech is very informative.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    the period 10-5 ka when Y-DNA diversity collapsed was indeed a period of technological innovations
    societies were based on male kinship
    a good example are the Maykop kurgans were chiefs were burried along with multiple woman
    the same happened in southern Mesopotamia priest-king graves
    I guess some tribes clinged to their traditional way of life, while others adopted and combined the new technologies in a clever way
    that is how Y-DNA diversity dropped
    the Yamna are a perfect example of a primitive tribe of HG who combined new technologies and became dominant on the steppe, all with the same Y-DNA
    traces of violence have been observed in the Khvalynsk graves, in the neolethic and early chaloclithic Dnjepr, and during the 6,2 ka climate event in the Danube valley
    afaik, violence is not observed among Yamna, alltough I'm sure there must have been at least some intertribal disputes when pastures became more scarce
    it is however not violence in the first place that made Yamna occupy the whole steppe and expell other tribes from the river valleys
    it is their new succesfull lifestyle which made them be more efficient in land use and grow in numbers, leaving no more space for other tribes
    I guess there was some solidarity amongst Yamna tribes based on male kinship, this kind of solidarity didn't extend to other tribes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    I think blue eyes are an adaptation, too, for better vision in dusk and twilight as they allow more light to enter through iris. And, vice versa, it is not good in bright sunlight.

    Hunter gatherers were hunters :), after all, and hunting/fishing is best during the twilight hours (morning/evening hours when daylight changes into darkness or vice versa which is really long in the North)

    And it is dark in the forest

    it is a "modern" forest site during early morning hours, the primeval forest which was home for Hunter Gatherers should have been even more dense. So people had very light blue eyes for better vision in such dim light.


    I absolutely like being in the forest, is it my hunter gatherer genes? ;)
    I heard this hypothesis and it also makes sense and it is probably the best explanation why blue eyes are more widespread in Northern Europe but there are scientists like Johannes Krause who still think it is because of sexual selection. Very beautiful landscape and pictures but I am not gonna lie, I am more a mountain range guy :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Agree with you on the pigmentation issues except that I agree with Dagne about the adaptability of light eyes in certain conditions. The one that still doesn't make sense is blonde hair. We have it even in the Solomon Islands among people with dark skin. The early EHG didn't have it, but the SHG did. Perhaps it's something tied to ANE ancestry which was a recessive but in these remote northern areas it rose to prominence.

    I think sexual selection is very culture specific. In the Africa of a few hundred years ago they killed albino babies, although that's perhaps an extreme example. :)

    As for Yersinia Pestis, we do have cases in Europe in the Late Neolithic. Although the paper isn't exceptionally clear about the ultimate source, Kristiansen clarifies the thinking of the authors of the paper in this youtube clip of his speech.

    The pertinent clarification starts at 8:45.


    The whole speech is very informative.
    Thanks Angela, I am going to make me a cup of coffee and watch the Video :)

    Yes, I agree there is the KITLG gene in ANE first but I am quite sure that someone can have blonde hair without this gene. I have to search for the two Anatolian Neolithic samples I mentioned earlier, if I am not mistaken they were already blonde without any ANE ancestry and so were some of GAC,TRB but the later two probably had at least some ANE ancestry. Still, hair colour is more complex than eye or skin colour because usually hair colour darkens after childhood and light hair colour is more widespread in women than men. You are probably right, maybe it isn't a coincidence that both traits are more widespread in Northern Europe and in southern regions even including Solomon Islands it usually can not reach frequencies above 30%.

    Did you read the last paper about the four females from CTC ? They were tested for diseases but didn't show any sign of Yersinia Pestis or other diseases. The four females even had minor steppe ancestry.

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    the first known to have blue eyes are WHG, but they were initially tundra mammoth and reindeer hunters
    the forests grew later

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I confirm what Moesan said. This study is not just about the Neolithic, but actually more about Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age Switzerland. In the three periods described in the paper, the first (4500-2600 BCE) corresponds to the Neolithic and Chalcolithic, the second and third (2800-2200 BCE and 2200-1700 BCE) to the transitory Bell Beaker culture (Chalcolithic to the Early Bronze Age).



    What I find the most interesting in this study is that the vast majority of Bell Beaker R1b samples belonged to the L2 clade (11 out of 14; the other being P312 or L51). In other words 100% of these Early Bronze Age Swiss R1b-U152 were L2. This confirms that L2 is predominantly 'Alpine' Celtic (related to Hallstatt and La Tène cultures), although at least one L2 branch was also found among Italics. The absence of the Z56 and Z193 clades of U152 in Bronze Age Switzerland also confirms indirectly that these were Italic rather than Celtic clades.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the first known to have blue eyes are WHG, but they were initially tundra mammoth and reindeer hunters
    the forests grew later
    If the theory about blue eyes as vision adaptation is right, then early WHG who lived in tundra and hunted mammoths should have had brown eyes and brown skin to protect against the exposure to sun.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    If the theory about blue eyes as vision adaptation is right, then early WHG who lived in tundra and hunted mammoths should have had brown eyes and brown skin to protect against the exposure to sun.
    WHG are much later than the tundra hunters, Mesolithic peoples rather than Paleolithic peoples. They hunted small game, not mammoths. They probably carried y lines like C if the Paleolithic samples from Europe are any indication, not R1b,so I don't think that's a problem for the hypothesis. Plus, dna analysis shows those Paleolithic peoples in, say, Russia, were brown eyed, and, yes, dark skinned.

    By the time that WHG formed, perhaps somewhere like the Balkans, all of Europe was one big forest, so I think the vision adaptation hypothesis is one which should be studied further. Once the adaptation occurred
    it could have easily undergone a sweep given the very small sign of the population .

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    @Bicicleur
    What's also curious in the graph you posted is that the phenomenon would have happened everywhere at a similar time.
    Well, it took a while from the beginning of Neolithic till the collapse of those civilizations, which then occurred suddenly, i.e., in relatively few time the replacement would have happened. Not necessarily, but it does look like something else favored the phenomenon, not just technology - as suggested by Angela and Moesan -, even if the latter played a role, especially in weaponry and related tools. Still, it would not have been the first nor last time that certain group overcome/defeat another one more or equally advanced in technology, for whatever reasons or previous events. Examples are Neanderthals (by AMH), earlier, and Romans, later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    If the theory about blue eyes as vision adaptation is right, then early WHG who lived in tundra and hunted mammoths should have had brown eyes and brown skin to protect against the exposure to sun.
    Actually I'm not aware WHG originated in - or close to - tundra, as hg R, which would have correlated to the older ANE at the beginning (while earliest WHGs could have correlated mainly to hg I?). I may be mistaken, but I guess I read here in Eupedia that WHG would have come directly from Middle East, naturally way earlier than the "cousin" component ANF, in turn very similar to AHG (the only ancient sample associated thus far, from Epipaleolithic, belonged to hg C). Modern people most similar to AHGs seems to be in Corsica, Tuscany and Lazio, according to K36 similarity map, and likely Sardinia (the related cluster doesn't work well in K36, since Sardinia is drifted and equals West Med in the calc):
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...herer-GEDmatch
    Iranian farmer component could have correlated originally with hg G more strongly, perhaps, since G poped up in Anatolia at AAF period together with some Iranian Farmer ancestry; CHG, mainly J.

    ED: I love mountains and forests as well, but I likely have very few WHG genes. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    WHG are much later than the tundra hunters, Mesolithic peoples rather than Paleolithic peoples. They hunted small game, not mammoths. They probably carried y lines like C if the Paleolithic samples from Europe are any indication, not R1b,so I don't think that's a problem for the hypothesis. Plus, dna analysis shows those Paleolithic peoples in, say, Russia, were brown eyed, and, yes, dark skinned.

    By the time that WHG formed, perhaps somewhere like the Balkans, all of Europe was one big forest, so I think the vision adaptation hypothesis is one which should be studied further. Once the adaptation occurred
    it could have easily undergone a sweep given the very small sign of the population .
    Oh. Is it Balkan? I thought Middle East. Ok then.
    Which component in Europe was replaced by WHG? I just remember they were hg C.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    TU905 (X18) mtdna B4c1b2c2
    That's great question since he doesn't show anything eastern in his autosomal.... 🤔

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