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Thread: Ancient genomes reveal social and genetic structure of Late Neolithic Switzerland

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Well if anything, from LDC to Sredni there was a change of crania from robust, large skulls, to gracile and median width. So someone came from somewhere don't you think?
    How many skulls from the early LDC do we really have? Also, there seem to have been two influences of more Mediterranean variants into the region, one possibly from the East, the other from the West. The latter was associated with the Western Neolithic contacts I spoke about. If you look carefully, different variants persist in different groups at different times and new phenotypes emerge, both due mixture and selection. But how the phenotypical shifts relate to ancestral shifts is difficult to tell. Remind you, phenotypical interpretations are prone to underestimate other factors, like drift and selection. You can find different trends among different steppe people, all descending from the original core group. They don't look particularly close actually.

    From 5200BC onwards in that region lots of people got together for come reason. from LDC to i guess what I think i was the Shulaveri people. They for sure all clearly got more gracile like the shulaveri and also taller like the LDC people. the locals brought the stature but suddenly the region went from foxes, reed dear, bears to became full of cattle, goats, sheep, pigs and dogs... and copper beads and copper awls... and even others from east (like Orlovka) seem to join....
    The main theory of Kotova et al. on this issue is that they had contacts to Neolithic people before, that they had parts of the technology before, but they only shifted when the climate deteriorated and the contacts especially to the Western neighbours intensified.

    We know that up to very late this steppe places had no, none, CHG or near eastern component. however during 5th millenium, suddenly...
    We have zero from the LDC and now we might get early SSC with CHG, so, let DNA sort it out, but I don't see that sudden change in the 5th mil. in this respect. But its not like I know everything

    Shulaveri A was born, at 16 years old had a son from a LDC women EHG, at 32 was a grandfather with 10 grand children that had "steppe" ancestry. And that was one guy...so 100 years later lots of them have already EHG in them.
    The problem is just, that R1a+b seem to have been EHG lineages, so paternally the foragers seem to have dominated.

    If A moves to the region of B , 100 years later they all have ancestry from B as well as from A. because whatever happened in the steppe eneolithic does not seem to have been violent until the Yamnaya.
    Violence in prehistory can be a tricky thing, very tricky. Whether there was such a drastic increase of violence with Yamnaya is open to debate. Rather they were among the first of the steppe people to do a real big expansion with their clan's exclusive paternal heritage, over huge stretches of land. But I'd say that's rather because their package was so good and ruled supreme, rather than them being generally more or less violent. There are even people which don't show off how violent they are, yet they are quite brutal and vice versa.

    But let the DNA god sort it out.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Yes, the question will be if it will be the LDC or the Sredny Stog that is going to be relevant. You believe the earlier LDC I keep my mantra of the vanishing Shulaveri that flew to north from Ubaid (or most likely climate change :) ) taking a more robust neolithic to the region with its very shulaveri combination of pastoral way of life. So from 5200BC - 4800BC between the Kuban rivers, the terek, the don and Volga...I atribute it to the shulaveri running. Maybe wrong, who knows.

    However,

    Davidski is so very excited with the leaks e gets from the labs... and he says that in Sredny stog, by as early as near 5000BC (so? 4900bc? 4700bc?) there is a very close to Yamnaya admixture... I am telling you. Its the Shulaveri. :)
    My prediction: They will be just like Eneolithic Steppe and they are West of Samara (according to Davidski) that's way north of the LDC not a good candidate for anything because if the location is correct this is Forest region not steppe. Yamnaya was formed after 4000BC not earlier. We are looking for CHG-rich people the ancestor of Yamnaya/CWC spreading the neolithic package north and Shulaveri Shomu isn't a good candidate for this in my opnion. LDC gets probaly the basic neolithic package 6500BC if the dates are going to be correct it is the earliest on the steppe with this package. Here is migration possible. 5000BC is just people with southern gracile skull type pushing and admixing with the local (E)HGs north I have sources for this for Khvalynsk and you probably for SSC, but i am not 100% sure where they come from and if two populations with this gracile type were involved or just one.

    Riverman, If Khvalynsk is an offshoot of LDC and has Orlovka and Pricaspian admixture. Orlovka is at least going to have some LDC admixture. This is better than having nothing from this time period on the steppe.

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    oldest sample

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2259-z

    Supplementary Discussion 5: Palaeogenetics (Supplementary information)
    ...
    The reconstructed mtDNAs of Bacho Kiro Cave specimens were aligned to 54 present-day
    humans, 12 ancient H. sapiens (SI Tab. 9), 22 Neanderthals, four Denisovans, one Sima de los
    Huesos individual and a chimpanzee to determine to which hominin group they belong. All of the
    six Bacho Kiro Cave mitochondrial genomes fall within the variation of H. sapiens. The
    haplogroups of the reconstructed mtDNAs were identified using HaploGrep and the Phylotree
    database (build 17). Bacho Kiro Cave molar (F6-620) and specimen AA7-738 carry the
    substitutions that define the M haplogroup with 0.98 posterior support (73G, 263G, 489C, 750G,
    1438G, 2706G, 4769G, 7028T, 8701G, 8860G, 9540C, 10398G, 10400T, 10873C, 11719A,
    12705T, 14766T, 14783C, 15043A, 15301A, 15326G, 16223T), along with two substitutions
    (4730T and 5315G) not seen in any present-day human population. The specimens BB7-240 and
    CC7-335 carry the substitutions characteristic of the N haplogroup (73G, 263G, 750G, 1438G,
    2706G, 4769G, 7028T, 8860G, 9456G, 11719A, 12705T, 14766T, 15326G, 16223T) with 0.93 and
    0.92 posterior support, respectively. Both of them share two mutations (4113A, 8155A) not
    detected in any present-day human population along with one specific mutation for each of them
    (194T in BB7-240 and 14790G in CC7-335) and fall basal to the other individuals of the
    macrohaplogroup N, with the smallest number of differences to Oase1. Specimen CC7-2289
    carries the substitutions defining the R haplogroup (73G, 263G, 750G, 1438G, 2706G, 4769G,
    7028T, 8860G, 11719A, 14766T, 15326G) with no private mutations and no additional
    substitutions that define sub-clades of haplogroup R, suggesting a relationship to the mtDNA
    ancestral to present-day haplogroup R. The mitochondrial genome of the specimen BK-1653
    belongs to haplogroup U8, commonly found in other Upper Palaeolithic humans in Europe,
    and shows the smallest number of differences to the mtDNA genome of Kostenki 14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    My prediction: They will be just like Eneolithic Steppe and they are West of Samara (according to Davidski) that's way north of the LDC not a good candidate for anything because if the location is correct this is Forest region not steppe. Yamnaya was formed after 4000BC not earlier. We are looking for CHG-rich people the ancestor of Yamnaya/CWC spreading the neolithic package north and Shulaveri Shomu isn't a good candidate for this in my opnion. LDC gets probaly the basic neolithic package 6500BC if the dates are going to be correct it is the earliest on the steppe with this package. Here is migration possible. 5000BC is just people with southern gracile skull type pushing and admixing with the local (E)HGs north I have sources for this for Khvalynsk and you probably for SSC, but i am not 100% sure where they come from and if two populations with this gracile type were involved or just one.

    Riverman, If Khvalynsk is an offshoot of LDC and has Orlovka and Pricaspian admixture. Orlovka is at least going to have some LDC admixture. This is better than having nothing from this time period on the steppe.
    @Anfänger
    If something I know is that what the future holds will probably be a surprise.

    Yet, what I cannot fathom is this idea that suddenly, out of the blue because usually the strata has well defined layers, the Huntergatheres of a region become totally, very complex and multi species, diverse in techniques, fully Neolithic, Agro-pastoral… without the influx of people that dominate the environment. Its not pots anymore is it?


    From the LDC to the Sredni stog its several types of cereals, its peas and legumes, its sheep and pigs, its dogs all at once?… enough to survive as vestiges over millennia. that is not how I perceive the world. Its takes lots of people and people that have those skills. But we will see , I suppose.
    From Shulaveri Shomu to Bell Beakers
    In Slides (https://shulaverianhypothesis.blogs.sapo.pt/ )
    In text (https://shulaveri2bellbeaker.blogs.sapo.pt/)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    From the LDC to the Sredni stog its several types of cereals, its peas and legumes, its sheep and pigs, its dogs all at once?… enough to survive as vestiges over millennia. that is not how I perceive the world. Its takes lots of people and people that have those skills. But we will see , I suppose.
    Some highly developed farmer cultures lived directdly West of them. Its the other way around, the question is why didn't they adopt these techniques for so long? And the answer is, that they needed a more pastoralist leaning package, adapted to their conditions on the steppe and in the river valleys AND that they needed the motivation to use it, e.g. because of new social norms, new cults and ideology (metal objects, prestigious contacts, larger social units etc.), but especially environmental pressure to give up on their forager life. Whatever the motivation was, it was not happening without admixture.

    I predict that you will find in the LDC area a group of EHG:CHG people first in one spot, which eventually start mixing with Western farmers (wives). These Neolithic women will appear among them, like in the Northern European context too, and their culture changes during this time as well, once more, to the full Neolithic package. They had intensive contacts with the West, exemplified by an increased proportion of farmer admixture from East to West, from one regional culture to the next. Remember the farmers tested in the later SSC/Dereivka area? A lot of EEF ancestry! Its just that here, like in the East, the core steppe people prevailed and replaced or assimilated the more farmer-shifted groups. So its not like they were isolated at all, they had direct, intensive contacts to the farmers with Carpatho-Balkan roots to their West and contacts to the East also.
    But while we have the increase of EEF ancestry, most likely as a new shift, I don't think a migration from the East of demographic significance took place at that time, but was happening earlier already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Some highly developed farmer cultures lived directdly West of them. ……….I predict that you will find in the LDC area a group of EHG:CHG people first in one spot, which eventually start mixing with Western farmers (wives). … intensive contacts to the farmers with Carpatho-Balkan roots to their West and contacts to the East also. .
    You are very precise in your assertions and that is good. Because in the end you will be right or wrong. Just like me.
    So, EEF came from Cucuteni process? OK. That is your take and might very well be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    But while we have the increase of EEF ancestry, most likely as a new shift, I don't think a migration from the East of demographic significance took place at that time, but was happening earlier already.
    Again… so, ancestry came from the west to mingle with EHG that already had mingled with CHG from a ghost population?
    Problem with it: Everybody (labs and Amateurs) say that the near eastern admix in Yamnaya is not represented in any samples published so far. I would say that since Mathieson et al we do have lots of Balkans samples, don’t we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    So, EEF came from Cucuteni process?
    Not just, it came with different cultural contacts, of which TCC was just the latest and itself colonised the preceding groups at the border of the steppe. See for the reference one of the quotations from Kotova. The EEF settlers were there for thousands of years, but were eventually were falling back, under worsening conditions, then came TCC and established a stable borderline and contacts.

    Again… so, ancestry came from the west to mingle with EHG that already had mingled with CHG from a ghost population?
    Exactly, ancestry and cultural influences. The CHG ghost was most likely coming by sea/along the Eastern coast of the Black Sea, with many remains being now under water. Probably there were even different waves or they kept contact with more Southern groups, this has to be explored. R. yar will be particularly important for these processes.

    Problem with it: Everybody (labs and Amateurs) say that the near eastern admix in Yamnaya is not represented in any samples published so far. I would say that since Mathieson et al we do have lots of Balkans samples, don’t we?
    The Carpatho-Balkan region is very complicated, because we know that there were different farmer people and colonising waves moving up to the North Pontic region. Like I said, there were multiple layers of early farmers living there and TCC itself was the result of newcomers colonising and/or replacing preceding farmer groups. There was, in all likelihodd, admixture with TCC, but with other farmer people too. I won't exclude the possibility that some farmer ancestry came via an Eastern route, or directly by sea, from Anatolia, but the bulk is supposed to have come from the neighbours to the West. We have the settlements, directly at the steppe people's doors, the mixture processes, that's something visible archaeologically, so its the most likely path for a signfiicant admixture and influence.

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    Either way I find it interesting that Tyuman is being used as an ancestral component for Khvalynsk and even SSC by Davidski and others on his blog and Anthrogenica. Yet they with a straight face, claim there is no East Asian in Yamnaya, yet there is definitely a genetic influence on at least some Yamnaya samples, from Khvalysnk, and there is definitely a SSC influence. Of course there is no East Asian in Khvalynsk, SSC, Eneolithic Steppe, or Yamnaya as stated in every paper done on the subject such as Damgaard et al 2018. There is a decent amount however, of Ancient East Asian ancestry in WSHG/Tyuman, around 20%. Also, it is important to keep in mind that WSHG/Tyuman has around 70-80% ANE/EHG related ancestry, so of course it will heavily overlap with SSC and Khvalynsk. ANE ancestry was found in Fofonovo_EN, Baikal_EN and Baikal_EBA in Jeong et al. 2020, Wang et al. 2020, and Gakuhari et al. 2019, so I wonder if a decent portion of the AEA/ANA percentage in WSHG comes from this common ANE ancestry, depending on the source population they use for this admixture. Is there ANE/ANS in Devil's Gate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Johnson View Post
    Is there ANE/ANS in Devil's Gate?
    As far as I know (others might know better?), it was not, at least no significant number, not mentioned in the paper. Devil's Gate seems to represent the East Asian/Mongoloid core group for the most part. Eastern ANE (diverged from the Western, which contributed to EHG) were living further North and West, and together with DG formed American Indians and influenced North Eastern Siberian people.

    The East Asian evolutionary pathways are still not fully understood, neither is when the big split took place. In my opinion primarily during the LGM, but there are really too few samples from East Asia out yet.

    ANE is in any case a fairly old ancestral component, I wouldn't lump it together for more recent considerations, when it was already differentiated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    As far as I know (others might know better?), it was not, at least no significant number, not mentioned in the paper. Devil's Gate seems to represent the East Asian/Mongoloid core group for the most part. Eastern ANE (diverged from the Western, which contributed to EHG) were living further North and West, and together with DG formed American Indians and influenced North Eastern Siberian people.

    The East Asian evolutionary pathways are still not fully understood, neither is when the big split took place. In my opinion primarily during the LGM, but there are really too few samples from East Asia out yet.

    ANE is in any case a fairly old ancestral component, I wouldn't lump it together for more recent considerations, when it was already differentiated.
    It is because they do not want to see an North-caucasus link ..............but that place in Bulgaria, plus Malek and where the the danube hits the black sea ....is where north-caucasus people met Anatolian people in eastern Europe

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