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Thread: Ancient genomes reveal social and genetic structure of Late Neolithic Switzerland

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    Ancient genomes reveal social and genetic structure of Late Neolithic Switzerland

    Ancient genomes reveal social and genetic structure of Late Neolithic Switzerland

    Abstract

    Genetic studies of Neolithic and Bronze Age skeletons from Europe have provided evidence for strong population genetic changes at the beginning and the end of the Neolithic period. To further understand the implications of these in Southern Central Europe, we analyze 96 ancient genomes from Switzerland, Southern Germany, and the Alsace region in France, covering the Middle/Late Neolithic to Early Bronze Age. Similar to previously described genetic changes in other parts of Europe from the early 3rd millennium BCE, we detect an arrival of ancestry related to Late Neolithic pastoralists from the Pontic-Caspian steppe in Switzerland as early as 2860–2460 calBCE. Our analyses suggest that this genetic turnover was a complex process lasting almost 1000 years and involved highly genetically structured populations in this region.









    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-15560-x



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    Y-Haplogroup transition from Neolithic to Bronze Age (Supplementary Note 4):


    Bildschirmfoto 2020-04-20 um 13.58.30.jpg


    A lot of R1b in the Bronze Age. Very likely that Bell Beaker R1b is from the Western Corded Ware Horizon. Interestingly there is also I2 in the Bronze Age.

    The Western Corded Ware Culture might be speakers of Centum-Indoeuropean that later become Germanic, Italic and Celtic.


    First sample with R1b is Aesch25(2864-2501BCE).


    Bildschirmfoto 2020-04-20 um 14.18.09.jpg

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    full mtdna list that been found in the 96 remains in this study( Alsace south germany Switzerland ) :
    MT HG
    H1+152
    K1a+195
    K1a3a
    H1
    X2b+226
    U5a1c1
    U5a1c1
    K1a2
    H10+(16093)
    H3
    H1
    H1
    K2b1a
    U8b1b
    J2b1a2
    J2b1a
    K2b1a
    X2b+226
    H1
    H3
    J1c3
    H5
    U5b2b2
    J1c3
    U5b2b5
    H4a1a
    K1a
    K1a+195
    J1c3
    K1a+195
    U2e2a1d
    T2b
    U2e2a1d
    H3+16189
    H11a+152
    K1a+195
    U2e2a1d
    H11a+152
    J1c3
    H11a+152
    J1c4
    J2b1a
    H4a1
    K1a2b
    K1a+195
    K1a2b
    K1a+195
    H1
    K1b1a
    K
    T2b3d
    H83
    H+16129
    H+16129
    U4a1a
    U5b1+16189
    K1a3a
    H1c
    W3a1
    W3a1
    H5a1
    H76a
    U5a1
    H+16129
    N1b1b
    K1a1a
    X2b4
    na
    na
    na
    H3ap
    K1a4a1a
    K1a+195
    H1
    J2b1a2
    J2b1a2
    H7d
    H1+16311
    K1a4a1
    K1a4a1
    H1+16311
    H5a
    K1a1
    H3
    K1a4a1
    X2b4
    U3a1
    H5
    U3a1
    J1c1b
    U4a2f
    B4c1b2c2
    K1a4a1
    K2b1
    T2b
    U8b1b1
    N1n1n
    H1





    p.s
    nice paper
    thanks for sharing
    one individual have my mtdna clade h3ap
    nice stuff

    supplement table 1:
    late neolithic individual from Switzerland
    126110 oberbipp horgen RA42 - MTDNA H3AP 3340-3097 bc

    i believe my clade probably spread from iberia to central europe
    it was found in bronze age iberia before
    Last edited by kingjohn; 20-04-20 at 18:05.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Your welcome kingjohn, thanks for sharing the MtDNA-Haplogroups.

    The Indoeuropeanisation of this part of Centraleurope we are talking about took a long period of time and not sudden population replacement like previuos papers suggested. Interessting statement by the authors:


    "Our analyses suggest that this genetic turnover was a complex process lasting almost 1000 years and involved highly genetically structured populations in this region."


    See also the chapter "Timing and duration of the genetic turnover"


    i believe my clade probably spread from iberia to central europe
    it was found in bronze age iberia before
    Maybe because it was part of the Bell Beaker culture so there was contact and mixing between Iberia and Centraleurope ? Oh i see that the date for the sample is too old to have spread with BBC.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    full mtdna list that been found in the 96 remains in this study( Alsace south germany Switzerland ) :
    MT HG
    H1+152
    K1a+195
    K1a3a
    H1
    X2b+226
    U5a1c1
    U5a1c1
    K1a2
    H10+(16093)
    H3
    H1
    H1
    K2b1a
    U8b1b
    J2b1a2
    J2b1a
    K2b1a
    X2b+226
    H1
    H3
    J1c3
    H5
    U5b2b2
    J1c3
    U5b2b5
    H4a1a
    K1a
    K1a+195
    J1c3
    K1a+195
    U2e2a1d
    T2b
    U2e2a1d
    H3+16189
    H11a+152
    K1a+195
    U2e2a1d
    H11a+152
    J1c3
    H11a+152
    J1c4
    J2b1a
    H4a1
    K1a2b
    K1a+195
    K1a2b
    K1a+195
    H1
    K1b1a
    K
    T2b3d
    H83
    H+16129
    H+16129
    U4a1a
    U5b1+16189
    K1a3a
    H1c
    W3a1
    W3a1
    H5a1
    H76a
    U5a1
    H+16129
    N1b1b
    K1a1a
    X2b4
    na
    na
    na
    H3ap
    K1a4a1a
    K1a+195
    H1
    J2b1a2
    J2b1a2
    H7d
    H1+16311
    K1a4a1
    K1a4a1
    H1+16311
    H5a
    K1a1
    H3
    K1a4a1
    X2b4
    U3a1
    H5
    U3a1
    J1c1b
    U4a2f
    B4c1b2c2
    K1a4a1
    K2b1
    T2b
    U8b1b1
    N1n1n
    H1





    p.s
    nice paper
    thanks for sharing
    one individual have my mtdna clade h3ap
    nice stuff

    supplement table 1:
    late neolithic individual from Switzerland
    126110 oberbipp horgen RA42 - MTDNA H3AP 3340-3097 bc

    i believe my clade probably spread from iberia to central europe
    it was found in bronze age iberia before
    Well, my U2e2 is one final letter different, but it confirms what I knew: it reached Italy with Indo-European admixed people. So, that's a double whammy as my father is R1b U-152.

    Still don't identify with them at all.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Your welcome kingjohn, thanks for sharing the MtDNA-Haplogroups.

    The Indoeuropeanisation of this part of Centraleurope we are talking about took a long period of time and not sudden population replacement like previuos papers suggested. Interessting statement by the authors:



    See also the chapter "Timing and duration of the genetic turnover"




    Maybe because it was part of the Bell Beaker culture so there was contact and mixing between Iberia and Centraleurope ? Oh i see that the date for the sample is too old to have spread with BBC.
    It other words it was a caste system, with the males of the "natives" being disadvantaged.

    Given all the papers from Krause I also think there was a difference in terms of immunity to plague, and given what we see from Covid 19, that might very well have affected men more than women. Plus, anyone that thinks this happened without violence doesn't know anything about human nature.

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    Wow alot of J1Cs

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It other words it was a caste system, with the males of the "natives" being disadvantaged.
    Given all the papers from Krause I also think there was a difference in terms of immunity to plague, and given what we see from Covid 19, that might very well have affected men more than women. Plus, anyone that thinks this happened without violence doesn't know anything about human nature.
    the 'caste system' you're refering to was probably a world-wide phenomenon
    everywhere since the paleolithic we see Y-DNA kinship and much more mtDNA diversity
    the caste system as it exists in India is indogenious to India, it is supposed to have originated in the upper Ganges area ca 3 ka where Indic herders settled in areas populated with local farmers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It other words it was a caste system, with the males of the "natives" being disadvantaged.

    Given all the papers from Krause I also think there was a difference in terms of immunity to plague, and given what we see from Covid 19, that might very well have affected men more than women. Plus, anyone that thinks this happened without violence doesn't know anything about human nature.
    I Agree. There was definitely some form of caste involved. I think Indian style caste-system is maybe a little different because it still exists today and is unique to India and the autosomal impact is rather small. To me this looks like "Colonization" similar to what the Spanish did in the Americas and it is clear that the Spanish were not very peaceful to the natives.

    Here is an interesting paper about this time:
    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...LC2iLgFPdrN6A#

    Again, like the last paper about the early polish CWC. Light eye colour goes down when the steppe people arrive. Light eye colour and hair colour really look like traits of the neolithic farmers of Europe.
    Last edited by Anfänger; 21-04-20 at 19:43.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The patrilocal fact was well established before Steppes folk arrived, I think it was already present in genuine Neolithic. And some clannic system too, or at least this clannic system began with Megalithers?

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    Yes there is a lot of J1c, but I figure my J1c2, not found there, was more with the Funnelbeaker farmers, given its North Sea and British Isles focus. And they've finally found a sample of my male-line haplogroup in the BC years. A distance up the Rhine from where my great-great-great-grandfather was born in Feilbingert in the northern Rhenish Palatinate, but much closer than the Belarusian refuge some had theorized for it.

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    Well
    Another clade under h3 was found in bell beaker
    From east germany h3ao .....
    h3 realy doesn't look indo european it was found in middle neolithic east germany salzmunde,
    in middle neolithic poland clade h3d, and in middle neolithic france just h3...
    As far as i know up untill now wasn't found in corded ware remains .... ( but i maybe wrong )
    it would have been nice if the lab would write the mutation they found for each individual...
    Because now i need to confirm it with the lab...
    Like i did with the spanish paper ...
    and they not always answere ...🤔

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    The patrilocal fact was well established before Steppes folk arrived, I think it was already present in genuine Neolithic. And some clannic system too, or at least this clannic system began with Megalithers?
    among megalithic for sure, but probably before
    watch the neolithic Y-DNA in the paper, all G2a2-PF3239, probably even all L166, the same as the 5 ka ötzi
    this subclade probably occupied a large area, form Northern Italy till Southern Germany before steppe ancestry arrived

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-PF3239/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    I Agree. There was definitely some form of caste involved. I think Indian style caste-system is maybe a little different because it still exists today and is unique to India and the autosomal impact is rather small. To me this looks like "Colonization" similar to what the Spanish did in the Americas and it is clear that the Spanish were not very peaceful to the natives.

    Here is an interesting paper about this time:
    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...LC2iLgFPdrN6A#

    Again, like the last paper about the early polish CWC. Light eye colour goes down when the steppe people arrive. Light eye colour and hair colour really look like traits of the neolithic farmers of Europe.
    Yes, we're in agreement about that. The only mass migration I can think of off hand where a "local" male haplogroup was adopted and flourished was with the Anatolian farmers, although G2a2 certainly took over in the Near East. Perhaps there just weren't enough of them in the beginning and they needed strong backs to do the farming. Also, although there is always, in my opinion, a certain level of "class" distinction in human societies, it was nothing to what happened later with the accumulation of agricultural surplus, and then the invention of metals.

    I think we shouldn't underestimate the other factors, however, like prior population levels, and the effect of disease in decimating the native population, as we saw in the New World. Even those who survived would have been weakened and traumatized.

    Think of more recent invasions. The Romans conquered most of their known world, killing and enslaving a lot of people in the process, so they were by no means saints, but they had no interest in exterminating all the males or creating a permanent caste system. Once the "natives" accepted they were now part of the empire, they were gradually enfranchised, and their local elites, the local social structure remained intact. They just wanted the trade and the taxes. Of course, population levels were high, and in the beginning there was no plague, although plagues hit later, but they affected all equally.

    So, the lack of inclusiveness would have differed depending on the particular group involved and their situation. The Langobards were worse than the Goths, and imposed a caste system which lasted for almost a thousand years, but they didn't have the plague to help them and preceding population levels were higher, plus they were much fewer in number and the fields had to be tilled, so the y Dna change was much less. The Scythians were much more inclusive * than the Sarmatians etc. for reasons we may never know. The Huns were perhaps the worst of all? Of course they killed a huge percentage of the women as well, totally depopulating certain areas.

    A depressing picture indeed.

    As for the light eye and hair color, I remember when the first report was issued of the Corded Ware warrior in Poland, indicating he was "much darker" than modern Poles, and the howls of protest.

    I'm not quite sure I'd say the light hair and eyes combination were the predominant trait of the Neolithic farmers of Europe. It certainly isn't true of the first arrivals from Anatolia, although there were some light eyed people among them, perhaps from their minority substrate of Balkan type HG? There were some light haired and eyed people among the SHG as well, and the EHG had a lot of SLC45A2 which further lightened the skin, although they were still brown eyed and haired, or at least a good number of them were** . Somehow, and for some reason the combination did come together in Europe. Perhaps it was in Globular Amphora, or perhaps in more northern regions among people incorporated by steppe people. It's still murky to me how and why it rose to prominence, but I think the idea that the steppe people brought it to Europe can be laid to rest. Instead, they picked it up in Europe and then brought it back out east with them. So, those "lighter" Andronovo people used as "proof" of the fairness of the steppe people was incorrect.

    Dear, dear, first milk drinking and then blonde hair and blue eyes aren't signs of the "superior" Aryans. If Hitler had been freeze dried and resurrected he'd shoot himself in despair. Goebels and that monster wife of his as well. She even killed her own children, so she'd have no problem with it. I just read somewhere that Hitler, Goebbels and Himmler had thought about perhaps exterminating all dark haired people. I guess it had been a while since he had looked in a mirror and actually "seen" himself. What is it about us as human beings that we let such mad men rule us?

    Ed.
    *corrected to say inclusive, although I'm sure our members knew that.

    **further clarification
    Last edited by Angela; 21-04-20 at 20:46.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, we're in agreement about that. The only mass migration I can think of off hand where a "local" male haplogroup was adopted and flourished was with the Anatolian farmers, although G2a2 certainly took over in the Near East. Perhaps there just weren't enough of them in the beginning and they needed strong backs to do the farming. Also, although there is always, in my opinion, a certain level of "class" distinction in human societies, it was nothing to what happened later with the accumulation of agricultural surplus, and then the invention of metals.

    I think we shouldn't underestimate the other factors, however, like prior population levels, and the effect of disease in decimating the native population, as we saw in the New World. Even those who survived would have been weakened and traumatized.

    Think of more recent invasions. The Romans conquered most of their known world, killing and enslaving a lot of people in the process, so they were by no means saints, but they had no interest in exterminating all the males or creating a permanent caste system. Once the "natives" accepted they were now part of the empire, they were gradually enfranchised, and their local elites, the local social structure remained intact. They just wanted the trade and the taxes. Of course, population levels were high, and in the beginning there was no plague, although plagues hit later, but they affected all equally.

    So, the lack of inclusiveness would have differed depending on the particular group involved and their situation. The Langobards were worse than the Goths, and imposed a caste system which lasted for almost a thousand years, but they didn't have the plague to help them and preceding population levels were higher, plus they were much fewer in number and the fields had to be tilled, so the y Dna change was much less. The Scythians were much more exclusive than the Sarmatians etc. for reasons we may never know. The Huns were perhaps the worst of all? Of course they killed a huge percentage of the women as well, totally depopulating certain areas.

    A depressing picture indeed.

    As for the light eye and hair color, I remember when the first report was issued of the Corded Ware warrior in Poland, indicating he was "much darker" than modern Poles, and the howls of protest.

    I'm not quite sure I'd say the light hair and eyes combination were the predominant trait of the Neolithic farmers of Europe. It certainly isn't true of the first arrivals from Anatolia, although there were some light eyed people among them, perhaps from their minority substrate of Balkan type HG? There were some light haired and eyed people among the SHG as well. Somehow, and for some reason the combination did come together in Europe. Perhaps it was in Globular Amphora, or perhaps in more northern regions among people incorporated by steppe people. It's still murky to me how and why it rose to prominence, but I think the idea that the steppe people brought it to Europe can be laid to rest. Instead, they picked it up in Europe and then brought it back out east with them. So, those "lighter" Andronovo people used as "proof" of the fairness of the steppe people was incorrect.

    Dear, dear, first milk drinking and then blonde hair and blue eyes aren't signs of the "superior" Aryans. If Hitler had been freeze dried and resurrected he'd shoot himself in despair. Goebels and that monster wife of his as well. She even killed her own children, so she'd have no problem with it. I just read somewhere that Hitler, Goebbels and Himmler had thought about perhaps exterminating all dark haired people. I guess it had been a while since he had looked in a mirror and actually "seen" himself. What is it about us as human beings that we let such mad men rule us?
    I liked too much what you’ve written Angela . Year by year we are discovering more infos about the phenotype of these ‘Aryan invaders’ and Hitler and his company remain a shame for Europe ... a band of sick people that destroyed our continent and that believed in an unscientific ‘Aryan image’ (blond , light-eyed people) ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, we're in agreement about that. The only mass migration I can think of off hand where a "local" male haplogroup was adopted and flourished was with the Anatolian farmers, although G2a2 certainly took over in the Near East. Perhaps there just weren't enough of them in the beginning and they needed strong backs to do the farming. Also, although there is always, in my opinion, a certain level of "class" distinction in human societies, it was nothing to what happened later with the accumulation of agricultural surplus, and then the invention of metals.

    I think we shouldn't underestimate the other factors, however, like prior population levels, and the effect of disease in decimating the native population, as we saw in the New World. Even those who survived would have been weakened and traumatized.

    Think of more recent invasions. The Romans conquered most of their known world, killing and enslaving a lot of people in the process, so they were by no means saints, but they had no interest in exterminating all the males or creating a permanent caste system. Once the "natives" accepted they were now part of the empire, they were gradually enfranchised, and their local elites, the local social structure remained intact. They just wanted the trade and the taxes. Of course, population levels were high, and in the beginning there was no plague, although plagues hit later, but they affected all equally.

    So, the lack of inclusiveness would have differed depending on the particular group involved and their situation. The Langobards were worse than the Goths, and imposed a caste system which lasted for almost a thousand years, but they didn't have the plague to help them and preceding population levels were higher, plus they were much fewer in number and the fields had to be tilled, so the y Dna change was much less. The Scythians were much more exclusive than the Sarmatians etc. for reasons we may never know. The Huns were perhaps the worst of all? Of course they killed a huge percentage of the women as well, totally depopulating certain areas.

    A depressing picture indeed.

    As for the light eye and hair color, I remember when the first report was issued of the Corded Ware warrior in Poland, indicating he was "much darker" than modern Poles, and the howls of protest.

    I'm not quite sure I'd say the light hair and eyes combination were the predominant trait of the Neolithic farmers of Europe. It certainly isn't true of the first arrivals from Anatolia, although there were some light eyed people among them, perhaps from their minority substrate of Balkan type HG? There were some light haired and eyed people among the SHG as well. Somehow, and for some reason the combination did come together in Europe. Perhaps it was in Globular Amphora, or perhaps in more northern regions among people incorporated by steppe people. It's still murky to me how and why it rose to prominence, but I think the idea that the steppe people brought it to Europe can be laid to rest. Instead, they picked it up in Europe and then brought it back out east with them. So, those "lighter" Andronovo people used as "proof" of the fairness of the steppe people was incorrect.

    Dear, dear, first milk drinking and then blonde hair and blue eyes aren't signs of the "superior" Aryans. If Hitler had been freeze dried and resurrected he'd shoot himself in despair. Goebels and that monster wife of his as well. She even killed her own children, so she'd have no problem with it. I just read somewhere that Hitler, Goebbels and Himmler had thought about perhaps exterminating all dark haired people. I guess it had been a while since he had looked in a mirror and actually "seen" himself. What is it about us as human beings that we let such mad men rule us?
    many of these monsters who were high in nazi leadership were dark haired
    the only monster who looked like the "aryan" model they want
    was haydrich ......
    great question angela ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Again like the last paper about the early polish CWC. Light eye colour goes down when the steppe people arrive. Light eye colour and hair colour really look like traits of the neolithic farmers of Europe.
    Analysis of functional SNPs. We analyzed the frequencies of
    several phenotypic SNPs (Table 1, “Methods”). Derived alleles for
    SLC24A5 associated with light skin pigmentation in Europeans
    were found in all individuals with this position covered. The
    frequency of SLC45A2 also causing lighter skin pigmentation
    tends to increase and the frequency of HERC2 associated with
    light eye-color tends to decrease towards the Final Neolithic.
    but not light skin?
    these phenotype markers are so confusing
    not all studies point in the same direction
    as I recall from former studies :
    WHG = blue eyes
    EHG = blond hair
    EEF = light skin

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    Wow
    The tubingen lab
    Was fast in answer 👍
    One of the researches confirm
    To me that RA42 individual indeed carry mutation 10915c
    and he is indeed h3ap 😉
    I think all the mtdna types i posted above of the 96 remains are real deal 👍

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    many of these monsters who were high in nazi leadership were dark haired
    the only monster who looked like the "aryan" model they want
    was haydrich ......
    great question angela ....
    And it was persistently rumored, even in his youth, that he was part Jewish. Who knows how much that accounted for the fact that he was the worst of them; part of his desire to be the most brutal being, perhaps, to prove it wasn't true.

    You couldn't make stuff up as stupid as this.

    Sorry, no more off topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Analysis of functional SNPs. We analyzed the frequencies of
    several phenotypic SNPs (Table 1, “Methods”). Derived alleles for
    SLC24A5 associated with light skin pigmentation in Europeans
    were found in all individuals with this position covered. The
    frequency of SLC45A2 also causing lighter skin pigmentation
    tends to increase and the frequency of HERC2 associated with
    light eye-color tends to decrease towards the Final Neolithic.
    but not light skin?
    these phenotype markers are so confusing
    not all studies point in the same direction
    as I recall from former studies :
    WHG = blue eyes
    EHG = blond hair
    EEF = light skin
    Yes, it is hard to get a clear picture about phenotype because it´s complex. I think skin colour really isn't a big deal it´s adaption to environment and result of farming diet. Coming to 2 traits that are complicated that are light eye colour and hair colour. So we find the mutation for blue eyes in all WHG, one CHG(Satsurblia) and IIRC even in two samples from Neolithic Anatolia(they were even blond?) and later GAC,TRB and CWC have both, blue eyes and light hair in sizable frequency. For reasons I don't know it goes up in Northeastern Europe in farmer and later steppe people. Last week I read a lot of papers about the CWC from Baltic, Poland and Central Europe and I´ve come to conclusion that it is very likely that they got it from GAC. Right from the beginning CWC men mated overwhelmingly with local women and that might be the reason why CWC is lighter pigmented than Yamnaya. These men had the opportunity to choose the women they wanted keep that in mind. Another reason that is usually overlooked is that there are modern populations without steppe ancestry that have some blond and blue eyed individuals, these are Kartvelian speakers from the Caucasus. Laz people,Georgians, Armenian Hemsheni etc. In Turkey there is the stereotype that people from Trabzon are usually the lightest Turks, blond and blue eyed. About the EHG and KITLG gene IIRC KITLG is not even needed for people to have blonde hair because its frequency in Northeuropeans is 20% but there are more blondes in populations from Northern Europe and maybe even GAC and TRB have picked it up from Balkan HG or other HG like Angela wrote. I am not saying that I know it 100% but for me the picture is getting clearer paper after paper. Maybe in future papers we will find groups of Yamnaya that were blonde and blue eyed but we have a lot of samples and this culture is heavily sampled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, we're in agreement about that. The only mass migration I can think of off hand where a "local" male haplogroup was adopted and flourished was with the Anatolian farmers, although G2a2 certainly took over in the Near East. Perhaps there just weren't enough of them in the beginning and they needed strong backs to do the farming. Also, although there is always, in my opinion, a certain level of "class" distinction in human societies, it was nothing to what happened later with the accumulation of agricultural surplus, and then the invention of metals.

    I think we shouldn't underestimate the other factors, however, like prior population levels, and the effect of disease in decimating the native population, as we saw in the New World. Even those who survived would have been weakened and traumatized.

    Think of more recent invasions. The Romans conquered most of their known world, killing and enslaving a lot of people in the process, so they were by no means saints, but they had no interest in exterminating all the males or creating a permanent caste system. Once the "natives" accepted they were now part of the empire, they were gradually enfranchised, and their local elites, the local social structure remained intact. They just wanted the trade and the taxes. Of course, population levels were high, and in the beginning there was no plague, although plagues hit later, but they affected all equally.

    So, the lack of inclusiveness would have differed depending on the particular group involved and their situation. The Langobards were worse than the Goths, and imposed a caste system which lasted for almost a thousand years, but they didn't have the plague to help them and preceding population levels were higher, plus they were much fewer in number and the fields had to be tilled, so the y Dna change was much less. The Scythians were much more exclusive than the Sarmatians etc. for reasons we may never know. The Huns were perhaps the worst of all? Of course they killed a huge percentage of the women as well, totally depopulating certain areas.

    A depressing picture indeed.

    Dear, dear, first milk drinking and then blonde hair and blue eyes aren't signs of the "superior" Aryans. If Hitler had been freeze dried and resurrected he'd shoot himself in despair. Goebels and that monster wife of his as well. She even killed her own children, so she'd have no problem with it. I just read somewhere that Hitler, Goebbels and Himmler had thought about perhaps exterminating all dark haired people. I guess it had been a while since he had looked in a mirror and actually "seen" himself. What is it about us as human beings that we let such mad men rule us?
    To me the Romans are very different from all these "Barbarians". There is a reason we call the Roman Empire the mother of Europe. Bringing infrastructure, wealth, building cities and the Roman way of life to the remotest places of the Empire has nothing to do with Steppe People like the Huns coming in and destroying everything they find on their way.

    Y-DNA diversity in the Middle East is way higher than in Europe. There are plenty of haplogroups from the Neolithic Revolution G2a, J1,J2,E,L,T, and so on but also some R1b and R1a. And we don't see huge population turnovers like in Europe, except for one in the Copper Age.

    The Nazis really are weirdos to me. Reminds me of a French cartoon. The Aryan Type: Blond like Hitler, Thin like Goering and tall like Goebbels. It's a shame they ruined the ethnic self-designation of the early Iranians.
    Last edited by Anfänger; 22-04-20 at 12:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    To me the Romans are very different from all these "Barbarians". There is a reason we call the Roman Empire the mother of Europe. Bringing infrastructure, wealth, building cities and the Roman way of life to the remotest places of the Empire has nothing to do with Steppe People like the Huns coming in and destroying everything they find on their way.

    Y-DNA diversity in the Middle East is way higher than in Europe. There are plenty of haplogroups from the Neolithic Revolution G2a, J1,J2,E,L,T, and so on but also some R1b and R1a. And we don't see huge population turnovers like in Europe, expect for one in the Copper Age.

    The Nazis really are weirdos to me. Reminds me of a French cartoon. The Aryan Type: Blond like Hitler, Thin like Goering and tall like Goebbels. It's a shame they ruined the ethnic self-designation of the early Iranians.
    I don't think there was lack of turnover in the Middle East; it's just that it's further in the past than for some areas in Europe The migrations from the northeast certainly replaced the G2a2 and E with huge amounts of J1 and J2.

    I'd agree with the rest, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Y-Haplogroup transition from Neolithic to Bronze Age (Supplementary Note 4):


    Bildschirmfoto 2020-04-20 um 13.58.30.jpg


    A lot of R1b in the Bronze Age. Very likely that Bell Beaker R1b is from the Western Corded Ware Horizon.
    The Western Corded Ware Culture might be speakers of Centum-Indoeuropean that later become Germanic, Italic and Celtic.


    First sample with R1b is Aesch25(2864-2501BCE).


    Bildschirmfoto 2020-04-20 um 14.18.09.jpg
    The paper used Yamnaya=YAM. None of these R1b or R1a samples have anything to do with--YAM-- Yamnaya R1b-Z2103-Z2109- 33oo+ -. hammer bone pins, copper, tanged dagger, wagons, horse remains.
    H. event.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't think there was lack of turnover in the Middle East; it's just that it's further in the past than for some areas in Europe The migrations from the northeast certainly replaced the G2a2 and E with huge amounts of J1 and J2.

    I'd agree with the rest, though.
    Sure, but we don't see Bell Beaker style replacement where one Haplogroup reaches frequencies above 50%. Usually there is no single Haplogroup that is above 35% in the Middle East. Only exception is J1 in the Arabian Peninsula and some ethnic groups in the Caucasus where G2,J1 and J2 go above 50%.


    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    The paper used Yamnaya=YAM. None of these R1b or R1a samples have anything to do with--YAM-- Yamnaya R1b-Z2103-Z2109- 33oo+ -. hammer bone pins, copper, tanged dagger, wagons, horse remains.
    I am not sure if this is directed to my post or to the conclusion of the authors, but I did not write that the R1b samples are directly from Yamnaya, they share a common paternal ancestor though not too long ago. In my opinion the early R1b samples are from the western Corded Ware horizon and could be ancestral to the Bell Beaker R1b phenomenon.
    If I am not mistaken, they also wrote that these early samples with steppe ancestry are closer to Afanasievo than to Yamnaya. Interestingly, there was a Afanasievo man with R1b-L51 from Mongolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    I am not sure if this is directed to my post or to the conclusion of the authors, but I did not write that the R1b samples are directly from Yamnaya, they share a common paternal ancestor though not too long ago. In my opinion the early R1b samples are from the western Corded Ware horizon and could be ancestral to the Bell Beaker R1b phenomenon.
    If I am not mistaken, they also wrote that these early samples with steppe ancestry are closer to Afanasievo than to Yamnaya. Interestingly, there was a Afanasievo man with R1b-L51 from Mongolia.
    Keep in mind majority of Afanasievo are R1b-Z2103+. R1b-L51 has not been found in Yamnaya[majority L23+>Z2109+].
    Conflating three lineages into cultural package “YAM”‘=Yamnaya is not compatible with this Swiss R1a sample. ” Steppe ” terminology component is reflects a more accurate scenario. “Yamnaya like” in what sense ?YAM–Yamnaya Samara=Yamnaya R1b-L23+>Z2103>+Z2109- 33oo + /-[Swiss samples negative]. Yamnaya culture contain graves with, early forms of Yersinia pestis, hammer bone pins, copper, copper tanged dagger, silver, wagons, domesticated cattle/sheep, horse remains, etc…. It is not shown the vector of steppe in the R1a samples, the same can be said for I11955(GLAV_14_Co) Casual and or indirect contact with steppe; the actual vector can only be speculated.

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