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Thread: Germans from today's Poland GEDmatch

  1. #1
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    Germans from today's Poland GEDmatch

    At first these two samples:

    One is with 100% ancestry from Glatz (Kłodzko) area, the other one 100% from Braunsberg (Braniewo) area:

    Eurogenes K13, K15 and Dodecad K12b, Harappa World, MDLP K23b, MDLP K16, EUtest:

    Grafschaft Glatz - http://www.grafschaft-glatz.de/kultur/kultur00.htm

    Code:
    GER_Glatz_K13,35.77,31.04,14.63,8.13,7.64,0.30,0,1.02,0,0.72,0,0.72,0
    GER_Glatz_K15,28.70,17.67,17.49,12.91,11.39,6.31,4.26,0,0,0.35,0,0.25,0,0.67,0
    GER_Glatz_K12b,6.67,0,0,0,31.82,45.92,0,0.17,1.96,0,13.27,0.20
    GER_Glatz_HW,0,8.09,13.55,49.67,0.23,0,0,0,0.06,0.10,26.51,1.45,0,0,0.25,0.08
    GER_Glatz_K23b,0.09,5.38,2.47,0.34,0,0,0.24,27.12,0,0,0.40,21.54,0.79,0,0,0.92,0.20,0,0,0,0,0,40.51
    GER_Glatz_K16,0,0,20.39,0,0,0,23.88,0,27.86,0,27.37,0,0,0.05,0,0.40
    GER_Glatz_EUtest,18.67,15.11,24.60,17.83,11.39,8.75,3.63,0,0,0,0,0,0
    Eurogenes K13, K15 and Dodecad K12b, Harappa World, MDLP K23b, MDLP K16, EUtest:

    Braunsberg - https://mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/p...t-the-start-of

    Code:
    GER_Braunsberg_K13,46.93,35.91,9.09,1.35,2.52,2.30,0,0.17,0.18,0.28,0.97,0.25,0.07
    GER_Braunsberg_K15,32.00,27.78,18.86,14.34,4.85,0,0,1.64,0,0,0,0,0.53,0,0
    GER_Braunsberg_K12b,5.49,0.23,0.34,0,32.39,53.84,0.30,0,1.25,0,6.14,0
    GER_Braunsberg_HW,0.17,8.16,4.48,57.48,0.28,0,0,0.60,0,0,27.55,1.15,0.10,0,0,0
    GER_Braunsberg_K23b,0,3.99,2.58,0,0,0.95,0,23.03,0.34,0,0,18.81,0,0,0,2.56,0.13,0,0,0,0,0,47.62
    GER_Braunsberg_K16,0,0,22.15,0,0,0.63,18.65,0,31.98,0.24,26.35,0,0,0,0,0
    GER_Braunsberg_EUtest,21.16,16.46,28.56,23.20,7.72,0.98,1.51,0.41,0,0,0,0,0

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Did they test on 23andme too? If so, do you know their numbers for the ancestry components?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Did they test on 23andme too? If so, do you know their numbers for the ancestry components?
    The one from Braniewo (Braunsberg) did not test with 23andMe, he tested with MyHeritage and scored:

    66% German
    23% Slavic
    11% Baltic

    However, his niece - who has exactly the same regional ancestry (also from Braunsberg area) - tested with 23andMe and scored around 31% Eastern European [this is rather on the low end of the spectrum for East Germans], 10% Scandinavian, 6% British&Irish, the rest being "Broadly" stuff and French&German.

    As for the Glatz German:

    This is FTDNA, I don't know his results there, but by my own estimate he is at least 40% East European.

    PS:

    I've heard that there is a German with 100% ancestry from Wollin Island on GEDmatch, but the account is inactive (it has not been re-activated after Verogen's purchase) so I can't check calculator results now:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolin

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    Thanks. The French & German being so low for her niece? They should work on their samples for ethnic Germans, the numbers for everything else appears to be constantly too high for anybody from the East. Obviously the Scandinavian and British & Irish can only be German for most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The French & German being so low
    It is not low, I just don't know the exact score.

    They told me only the exact percentages for East Euro, Scandinavian, British&Irish.

    And the rest is all French&German and Broadly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Obviously the Scandinavian and British & Irish can only be German for most.
    I wouldn't be so sure, if you know the history of East Prussia and Pomerania, it had Scandinavian presence both in ancient times and in the last 1000 years (Viking influence, later Danish and Swedish). And there were both Scottish (explains British&Irish) and French Huguenot immigrants there.

    Not to mention that e.g. kings of England with their armies participated in crusades against Baltic tribes.

    =====

    BTW - I also have several samples of ethnic Polish Warmiaks & Masurians from East Prussia, and it is amazing how purely Eastern European autosomally they are:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masurians#Population_size

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_P...ious_structure

    (they are very different than the Braunsberg German - but the latter can be modelled as a mix of Lower Saxony / Northwestern Germans with Warmiaks & Masurians)

    =====

    This is how the Braunsberg German scores in my own test:

    DEU_Braunsberg:

    German - 43.2% (regionally, all goes to Niedersachsen & Schleswig)
    Danish - 8.8%
    British - 7.0% (mainly Scotland)
    Swedish - 4.8% (mainly Scania)
    Irish - 1.4%
    French Basque - 1.0%
    Dutch - 0.7%
    ------------------
    Polish - 32.8% (the best matches are to Masovians and Masurians)
    Russian - 0.2%
    Ukrainian - 0.1%

    =====

    If only Germans and Lithuanians are used, then:

    DEU_Braunsberg:

    German - 73.2% (Niedersachsen and Schleswig)
    Lithuania - 26.8% (regionally, all goes to Alytus)

    =====

    If I add Poles, they are preferred over Lithuania:

    DEU_Braunsberg:

    DE_Niedersachsen - 65.1%
    PL_Mazowieckie - 34.9%

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    ^^^
    You could model him as 3/4 German + 1/4 Lithuanian. But algorithms will choose this option only if they are not allowed to choose Slavs. If you add Polish reference samples from Masovia, then they are immediately preferred over Lithuanian samples, and the result is 2/3 German + 1/3 Polish Masovia. This is kind of consistent with what MyHeritage reported, that he is more Slavic (23%) than Baltic (11%), but has both.

    I think North-Eastern Polish DNA (such as Masovian) already contains substantial Baltic admixture.

    So someone with 23% Slavic and 11% Baltic can be successfully modelled as 34% Masovian Polish.

    =====

    One more model, this time using Warmia-Masuria (DNA from Polishs-speakers) instead of Masovia:

    DEU_Braunsberg

    DE_Niedersachsen - 58.2%
    PL_Warmia-Masuria - 41.8%

    =====

    PS:

    For the Glatz German, more southern populations are preferred as the source of his Eastern European.

    Reference samples of modern Carpathian Rusyns for example work well as a source of his Slavic DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    I've heard that there is a German with 100% ancestry from Wollin Island on GEDmatch, but the account is inactive (it has not been re-activated after Verogen's purchase) so I can't check calculator results now:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolin
    Indeed. His result...

    Proper Saxon settler.

    Attachment 12034
    G25 Maps
    K36 Ancestral Report & Chromosomal Analysis & Heat Maps

    https://www.lm-genetics.com


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    Quote Originally Posted by mlukas View Post
    Indeed. His result...

    Attachment 12034
    Attachment does not work. Also, it should be her result not his result AFAIK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Attachment does not work. Also, it should be her result not his result AFAIK.
    Maybe her:) I have only results saved and location. I never save name or tree.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I wouldn't be so sure, if you know the history of East Prussia and Pomerania, it had Scandinavian presence both in ancient times and in the last 1000 years (Viking influence, later Danish and Swedish). And there were both Scottish (explains British&Irish) and French Huguenot immigrants there.

    Not to mention that e.g. kings of England with their armies participated in crusades against Baltic tribes.
    Even if I would agree on Swedish influences on Pommerania, or Scottish in some other places, all German speaking people get it. And its not like those which are actually closer to British & Irish get more of it, but those which are from undersampled subpopulations of German speakers, like Silesians. Those get higher percentages for British & Irish, for Scandinavian and for broadly. Some well sampled Western Germans get less of it, especially relatively (German&French : British&Irish). The British&Irish is almost never real, especially if considering the estimates for the generational distance. For most Central Europeans any kind of NW European on 23andme is an equivalent to German ancestry imho. The "broad categories" add to this proportionally, especially for the undersampled. I don't think the algorithm of 23andme is that bad, since it works out for well samples groups, but they still just need better and more sampling for some regions and ethnicities. However, they did improve a lot with their updates in recent years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    undersampled subpopulations of German speakers, like Silesians
    Here are GEDmatch averages of few German Silesians from the Duchy of Brieg (Brzeg):

    Eurogenes K13, K15 and Dodecad K12b, Harappa World, MDLP K23b, MDLP K16, EUtest:

    Herzogtum Brieg - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Brzeg

    Code:
    GER_Brzeg_K13,34.89,35.82,13.99,5.59,7.02,0.00,0.30,0.00,1.04,0.75,0.25,0.24,0.12
    GER_Brzeg_K15,26.29,20.14,20.86,14.12,9.57,2.87,4.96,0,0.13,0,0.57,0.32,0,0.18,0
    GER_Brzeg_K12b,4.82,0.86,0,0,29.61,49.83,0.41,0,1.67,0.20,12.52,0.09
    GER_Brzeg_HW,0.14,7.62,11.04,52.59,0,0.69,0,0,0.39,0.81,25.61,0.95,0.13,0,0,0.05
    GER_Brzeg_K23b,0.04,3.00,2.03,0.65,0,0.17,0,25.63,0,0.58,0.14,20.05,0.21,0,0.39,1.09,0,0.88,0.14,0,0,0,45.05
    GER_Brzeg_K16,0.19,0.10,21.44,0,0.62,0,20.44,0.13,29.67,0.17,27.00,0.13,0,0.14,0,0
    GER_Brzeg_EUtest,23.59,15.07,22.39,19.26,10.02,5.41,3.80,0,0.25,0,0,0.21,0



    Brieg was in Breslau Regency. Ethno-linguistic structure of this Regency in the 19th century:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Silesia#Population

    In year 1819, the Breslau Regency had 838,253 inhabitants, the majority of whom - 755,553 (90%) - were German-speakers; with a Polish minority numbering 66,500 (8%); as well as 8,900 Czechs (1%) and 7,300 Jews (1%).[5]
    ^^^ Landkreis Brieg was overhwelmingly German. Polish minority was concentrated to the north and east of it. According to R. Böckh, "Der Deutschen Volkszahl und Sprachgebiet", in year 1869 there were 448 Polish-majority settlements in Lower Silesia:



    As ethnically Polish Lower Silesia ("das polnische Nieder-Schlesien"), Böckh defined an area with 514 settlements and 103,200 inhabitants:


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    Interesting, how many people are these? Do you think the Siberian (<1) is real? It appears in more than one calculator. If its real, it should be even higher in Poles and Balts in particular (Uralic?).
    Also these numbers are really not pointing to any sort of British & Irish influence imho.

    What happened to the Czechs by the way? Did they assimilate? Where they displaced or is there is still a Czech minority?

    On Wikipedia I just found this:
    Zur grĂ¶ĂŸten Siedlung der Nachkommen der Böhmischen BrĂŒder wurde Hussinetz bei Strehlen, spĂ€ter wurden in unmittelbarer Nachbarschaft das Land fĂŒr die Gemeinden Ober-, Mittel- und Nieder-Podiebrad erworben. Weitere grĂ¶ĂŸere benachbarte Gemeinden mit einem hohen Anteil tschechischsprachiger Siedler waren Töppendorf und Pentsch.
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreis_Strehlen

    This says nothing about what happened in later times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    What happened to the Czechs by the way? Did they assimilate? Where they displaced or is there is still a Czech minority?
    The Czechs were not displaced after WW2.

    There is still a Czech community near Strzelin (Strehlen) descended from pre-war Czech minority:

    https://translate.google.com/transla...ska-wysepka%2F

    https://translate.google.com/transla...wtopic%3D53351

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Do you think the Siberian (<1) is real? It appears in more than one calculator. If its real, it should be even higher in Poles and Balts in particular (Uralic?).
    It might be real (maybe related to the Mongol invasion of Silesia in 1241), or it might be noise.

    Anyway you should rather pay attention to distances to populations, they are more informative.

    Comparison of Germans from Brieg vs. Glatz with Eurogenes K15:



    ^^^
    Brzeg is more Slavic-like and no wonder because it was located close to Sprachgrenze (language border):

    RED LINE = language border in Silesia around years 1790-1814 (to the east, Polish-speaking majority):


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    I think its not always the language border which makes the difference, because I know of German areas far from the German-Polish border region with more Slavic ancestry and borderline places far to the East with less of it. That's because in some regions more Slavic people were assimilated and in others not, whether they were far from or close to the border. And to some places very Western settlers came (French, Walloon, Dutch, North Western Germans) and to others it was German settlement from already mixed places. E.g. in East Prussia there were settlements of Salzburgers. Mixing also depended on the denomination of the Germans. As a rule, if the confession was the same, mixing was more common than if they were e.g. Protestant vs. Catholic.
    It would be very interesting to make such comparisons with different German subpopulations as well as subpopulations from others, because Poles from the old South West and local Silesians are obviously not the same as those from the Baltic or Ukrainian regions. I would like to know whether German Bohemians from different places were closer related to each other or to their closest linguistic relatives. For Northern Bohemians Silesians and (modern Eastern) Saxons should be closest. There was a constant flow from Northern Bohemia-Moravia to Silesia, especially before the Seven Years War. So it is even more significant that the settlers from Brieg are closer to Czechs than those from Glatz - probably its even due to the Czech colonists in part? The people from Glatz had close ties to the Germans in Bohemia, like the surnames prove (unique surnames shared). But like so often, another scenario could play in, assuming that Northern Bohemian-Moravian Germans have not that much Slavic ancestry, what seems to be the case, in theory a constant gene flow between Glatz and Austrian Silesia, Bohemia and Moravia could increase or decrease Czech/Slavic affinity. This could only be proven by direct comparison of many regional samples I guess.
    Are you having some sort of project running?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    because I know of German areas far from the German-Polish border region with more Slavic ancestry
    Yes for example even in Thuringia there are places with a lot of Slavic ancestry among local Germans!

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    So it is even more significant that the settlers from Brieg are closer to Czechs than those from Glatz - probably its even due to the Czech colonists in part? The people from Glatz had close ties to the Germans in Bohemia
    Well, Germans from Bohemia are not autosomally close to Czechs. Czechs are significantly more Slavic.

    If modelling as a mix of Swiss French, Niedersachsen, Lubelskie (proxies for Celtic/Germanic/Slavic):

    GER_Sudetenland:

    CH_Romandy - 42.50%
    GER_Niedersachsen - 23.33%
    PL_Lubelskie - 34.17%

    Czechs:

    CH_Romandy - 24.17%
    GER_Niedersachsen - 15.00%
    PL_Lubelskie - 60.83%

    ^^^
    So Czechs have about two times more of Slavic DNA than Sudeten Germans.

    And Glatz German is not close to Czechs, because he is close to Sudetenland.

    =====

    Brieg Germans are close to Czechs because they are more Slavic than Glatz.

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    BTW, this is a German 100% from Thuringia who is about as Slavic as Brzeg Germans:
    (which shows that there is no rule that further east geographically = more Slavic DNA)

    Eurogenes K13, K15 and Dodecad K12b, Harappa World, MDLP K23b, MDLP K16, EUtest:

    Code:
    Thuringia1_K13,33.65,37.28,8.89,8.93,8.56,0.72,0.16,0,0.57,0.13,1.10,0,0
    Thuringia1_K15,25.58,19.90,21.09,15.64,5.09,7.30,4.18,0.40,0,0,0,0,0.81,0,0
    Thuringia1_K12b,6.34,1.36,0.54,0,27.38,49.13,0,0,2.54,0,12.69,0
    Thuringia1_HW,0,9.05,11.84,51.45,0,1.03,0,0.68,0.19,0,23.62,2.13,0,0,0,0
    Thuringia1_K23b,0,2.79,3.73,0,0,0.47,0,27.72,0,0,0.92,15.77,0,1.00,0,2.66,1.12,0,0.18,0,0,0,43.63
    Thuringia1_K16,0,0,22.59,0,0.43,0.46,23.23,0,27.38,0.73,24.21,0.36,0,0.60,0,0
    Thuringia1_EUtest,21.69,18.10,20.09,19.02,7.59,7.55,5.11,0.70,0,0,0,0.14,0

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    Here is a German with ancestors from the following locations:



    All of which are within the former Herzogtum Slawien area:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavinia

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slawien



    ^^^
    It also corresponds to Regierungsbezirk Stettin area:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stettin_(region)



    =====

    Calculator results:

    Eurogenes K13, K15, Dodecad K12b, Harappa World, MDLP K23b, MDLP K16, EUtest:

    Code:
    DE_Slavinia_K13,39.38,35.58,9.82,7.69,5.91,0,0,0,0,0,0.65,0,0.97
    DE_Slavinia_K15,29.69,23.32,19.73,11.59,6.25,6.42,2.08,0,0,0,0,0,0.33,0,0.58
    DE_Slavinia_K12b,7.56,0,1.51,0,31.29,51.92,0,0,0,0,7.71,0
    DE_Slavinia_HW,,0,9.54,8.63,56.09,0,0,0,0.18,0,0,25.12,0,0,0.44,0,0
    DE_Slavinia_K23b,0,0,6.03,0.2,0,0.66,0,25.86,0.12,0,0,17.4,0.21,0,0.44,0,1.66,0,0,0,0,0.4,47.01
    DE_Slavinia_K16,0,0,23.67,0.34,0,0.77,22.35,0,28.82,0,24.05,0,0,0,0,0
    DE_Slavinia_EUtest,22.93,14.43,23.05,22.57,9.7,2.15,4.83,0,0,0.34,0,0,0
    Eurogenes K13 Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 55.2% North_Dutch + 44.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.26
    2 61.3% North_German + 38.7% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.27
    3 51.3% South_Polish + 48.7% North_German @ 2.31
    (...)

    Similitude Map:


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    I have one more also 100% from Regierungsbezirk Stettin / Slavinia, will update later today.

    This 2nd (#2) person has ancestors from:



    This one is getting in Eurogenes K13/K15:

    Eurogenes K13:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 39.69
    2 Baltic 36.35
    3 West_Med 11.11
    4 West_Asian 7.11
    5 South_Asian 2
    6 East_Med 1.93
    7 Sub-Saharan 1.35
    8 Red_Sea 0.33
    9 Northeast_African 0.07
    10 Oceanian 0.07

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 East_German 6.76
    2 North_Swedish 7.57
    3 Austrian 9.01
    4 Swedish 9.51
    5 South_Polish 10.19
    6 Southwest_Finnish 10.29
    7 North_German 10.61
    8 Hungarian 10.77
    9 Polish 11.79
    10 Norwegian 12.42
    11 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.45
    12 Danish 12.7
    13 Ukrainian 12.88
    14 North_Dutch 13.06
    15 Croatian 13.17
    16 West_German 14.41
    17 South_Dutch 14.81
    18 Orcadian 14.95
    19 Russian_Smolensk 15.13
    20 Finnish 15.16

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 50.8% Russian_Smolensk + 49.2% Irish @ 2.44
    2 57.2% Polish + 42.8% Irish @ 2.45
    3 58.8% Polish + 41.2% West_Scottish @ 2.61
    4 52.4% Russian_Smolensk + 47.6% West_Scottish @ 2.66
    5 51% Irish + 49% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.67
    6 52% Polish + 48% Danish @ 2.72
    7 50.6% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 49.4% West_Scottish @ 2.77
    8 52.8% North_German + 47.2% Polish @ 2.78
    9 52.7% Polish + 47.3% North_Dutch @ 2.78
    10 57.2% Swedish + 42.8% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.82
    11 51.9% Swedish + 48.1% South_Polish @ 2.83
    12 50.3% Orcadian + 49.7% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.83
    13 56.2% Polish + 43.8% Orcadian @ 2.83
    14 58.1% Swedish + 41.9% Ukrainian @ 2.86
    15 53.2% Russian_Smolensk + 46.8% Southwest_English @ 2.87
    16 50.5% Irish + 49.5% Estonian_Polish @ 2.91
    17 53.8% North_Dutch + 46.2% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.94
    18 54.6% Danish + 45.4% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.96
    19 52.1% Orcadian + 47.9% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.98
    20 59.3% North_German + 40.7% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.99

    Eurogenes K15:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Sea 25.54
    2 Atlantic 25.05
    3 Baltic 22.57
    4 Eastern_Euro 11.9
    5 West_Med 6.99
    6 West_Asian 5.75
    7 Sub-Saharan 1.23
    8 South_Asian 0.97

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 East_German 6.65
    2 Austrian 8.89
    3 Southwest_Finnish 9.72
    4 Hungarian 9.78
    5 South_Polish 10.41
    6 North_German 10.98
    7 Polish 11.03
    8 Croatian 11.23
    9 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.06
    10 Ukrainian 12.43
    11 Finnish 12.53
    12 South_Dutch 13.04
    13 North_Swedish 13.3
    14 Russian_Smolensk 13.49
    15 Swedish 13.93
    16 Danish 14.05
    17 North_Dutch 14.24
    18 Moldavian 14.35
    19 Estonian 14.36
    20 La_Brana-1 14.8

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 53% Russian_Smolensk + 47% Irish @ 4.18
    2 53.8% Russian_Smolensk + 46.2% Southwest_English @ 4.38
    3 55.9% North_German + 44.1% Russian_Smolensk @ 4.42
    4 53.6% Russian_Smolensk + 46.4% Southeast_English @ 4.44
    5 54.6% Russian_Smolensk + 45.4% West_Scottish @ 4.62
    6 60.6% South_Polish + 39.4% Irish @ 4.64
    7 57.8% Russian_Smolensk + 42.2% Orcadian @ 4.75
    8 51% Belorussian + 49% Southwest_English @ 4.76
    9 58.9% North_German + 41.1% Belorussian @ 4.78
    10 59.6% North_German + 40.4% Estonian_Polish @ 4.8
    11 50.1% North_German + 49.9% Polish @ 4.81
    12 54.1% Southwest_English + 45.9% Lithuanian @ 4.82
    13 63.8% North_German + 36.2% Lithuanian @ 4.82
    14 51.7% South_Polish + 48.3% North_German @ 4.85
    15 58.9% South_Dutch + 41.1% Lithuanian @ 4.88
    16 59.1% Polish + 40.9% Irish @ 4.89
    17 50.2% Belorussian + 49.8% Irish @ 4.89
    18 51.6% Russian_Smolensk + 48.4% North_Dutch @ 4.92
    19 50.8% Belorussian + 49.2% Southeast_English @ 4.94
    20 51.1% Irish + 48.9% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4.94

    Map (this one is a bit more Slavic-shifted):

    Last edited by Tomenable; 07-05-20 at 10:41.

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