Chinese E-V13 CTS1273 ?

I have heard from my parents that DNA ancestry testing is very recently becoming more and more popular on Chinese social media and wechat, unfortunately I don't speak Chinese so I can't read any of their results, so if any ancient steppe haplogroups populations still survive in areas it hopefully will become much more apparent in he next few years.

They did survive, but it remains open to debate:
- Which other haplogroups than R1a were involved and to which extend are they still present in different regions of China
- When did they reach China, with which people (early Indo-Europeans, later Iranians like Scythians, with Turko-Mongol migrations or a mix of these?)

It might become possible to link specific Chinese clans or villages with these or that ancient people in the near future. I too would be very interested to know those results. Do you know what DNA testing companies they are using by the way?
 
They did survive, but it remains open to debate:
- Which other haplogroups than R1a were involved and to which extend are they still present in different regions of China
- When did they reach China, with which people (early Indo-Europeans, later Iranians like Scythians, with Turko-Mongol migrations or a mix of these?)

It might become possible to link specific Chinese clans or villages with these or that ancient people in the near future. I too would be very interested to know those results. Do you know what DNA testing companies they are using by the way?


I know one of them is 'Wegene' https://www.wegene.com/en/ which supposedly has one of the best databases specifically for detailed ancestry of different Chinese regions, and allows you to upload other major DNA data for free (though might go to the Chinese government) for analysis from their database.

Other than that I don't know directly which platforms are most popular from people in China, but next time I skype with my parents I'll try to remember to ask them to ask their friends on wechat if any platforms are popular there, and I'll post it here.
 
Hi everybody. Hope covid lockdown has been a good time to get better at hobbies for some.

My father (born in northeast China and identifies as full Han Chinese) and I (born in Canada, with mother full Chinese) are E-V13 according to 23andme, and when I put our results in MorleyDNA's Y subgroup predictor it returned most likely CTS1273 for both of us. Prior we believed we were of full north-eastern Chinese ancestry. 23andme autosomal gives my dad some vague European results at 0.4%, and the furthest west for me was some tiny central Asian. I later did Ancestry (full Chinese/Korean results, nothing else) and livingDNA (1.8% Anatolian, 1.3% Northwestern European) for myself. My MtDNA haplogroup is A4, and my father's Mt group is G1a. My dad's ancestry was believed to be in the Shandong province of China for at least 2500 years, as my surname (Tian) were the Kings of the State of Qi until we had a war with the 1st Chinese emperor (we lost).

I am curious how E-V13 got so far east? No one in the family has much of a clue and up until the Communist revolution my dad's side were established landlords and nobility. My hunch would be either it was there for a very long time, a European silk-road trader brought it there in the last few hundred years, or somehow it trickled east from some Greek soldiers or Russian influence.

Anyone's thoughts/guesses/hunches would be very welcome.

Roland

It's definitely there, but distant. I've never heard of any full Han Chinese person getting any European on any test, so yes, its somewhere deep back in your father's family tree. E-V13 may have been spread among the Cardium pottery culture of southern Europe, or some wave of Neolithic Europeans from ancient Anatolia. It is found just about anywhere in Europe today, but arrived there from the South East no doubt. Congrats on your results, definitely a first that I've seen. EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, if your father shows 0.4% on 23andMe, it may only date to the 1700's sometime which could put it in the frame of Imperial Britain, who do carry E-V13 on occasion, albeit far more rarely than R1b. Greek and Silk road are far too ancient to show up on this test without some miracle in inheritance. Both mtDNAs seem to be irrelevant here, since they appear to be native to eastern Asia. The outlier is most definitely the direct paternal heritage, and with no disrespect, has definitely not been in Shandong for 2500 years, probably only 350 or so..
 
It's definitely there, but distant. I've never heard of any full Han Chinese person getting any European on any test, so yes, its somewhere deep back in your father's family tree. E-V13 may have been spread among the Cardium pottery culture of southern Europe, or some wave of Neolithic Europeans from ancient Anatolia. It is found just about anywhere in Europe today, but arrived there from the South East no doubt. Congrats on your results, definitely a first that I've seen. EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, if your father shows 0.4% on 23andMe, it may only date to the 1700's sometime which could put it in the frame of Imperial Britain, who do carry E-V13 on occasion, albeit far more rarely than R1b. Greek and Silk road are far too ancient to show up on this test without some miracle in inheritance. Both mtDNAs seem to be irrelevant here, since they appear to be native to eastern Asia. The outlier is most definitely the direct paternal heritage, and with no disrespect, has definitely not been in Shandong for 2500 years, probably only 350 or so..

Yes amorous adventure is certainly high on the list of what could have happened :) Hopefully the E-V13 subgroup test on the way might shed some light, but would be much much easier to possibly track down if it were recent haha.

Also if it was recent I wouldn't put much stock into it being British, because 23andMe originally gave it as 0.4% Italian before an update a few months back. Other companies for my own DNA give tiny amount of different countries ranging from Western Turkey, Finland, Spain, Northwest Europe etc. All I can be certain of at this point is E-V13 and whatever the subgroup results will be once I get them.
 
It is not strange at all, but must be very rare,

Tayuan,
City of strong Iones,
Also the Serica Σηραι, at Xinjiang

Qian, the war for Heavenly Horses,
Han and Greco-Bactrians and Seleykides knew each other.
there is enough Hellenistic archaiology in China,

besides it can also be after that, the times of medieval silk trade,
of Doucas emperror, centuries before Marco Polo,
When Con\polis monopolize silk trade for West.

it can also be from kid adaptation of what we say Mongol empires,
they use to steal and adop kids and raise them,


Although very very rare, it is not surprising,
 
Northern Chinese have West Eurasian ancestry, that's not extraordinary and doesn't need to be explained by any sort of recent admixture. We are talking about whether it came in somewhere around 1300 BC, with chariots and horses, or up to early historical times with e.g. Scythians or Turks and their assimilated ancient Iranian ancestry.

Traditional sources attribute the invention of the chariot to the Xia dynasty minister Xi Zhong,[1][2][3] and say they were used at the Battle of Gan (甘之战) in the 21st century BCE. However archeological evidence shows that small scale use of the chariot began around 1200 BCE in the late Shang dynasty.[4][5][6] This corroborates the material spread of the invention from the Eurasian Grass-Steppe to the West, by Proto-Indo-Europeans (likely the Tocharians) who similarly have borne horse, agricultural, and honey making technologies through the Tarim Basin into China. Contemporary oracle bone inscriptions of the character 車 depict a chariot-like two wheeled vehicle with a single pole for the attachment of horses.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_in_ancient_China

All recent genetic studies show minor West Eurasian ancestry for Northern Chinese which approximate steppe ancestry. That's not unusual, more exceptional is only the haplogroup, because the main haplogroup of the Eastern Indo-Europeans was R1b and especially R1a, which is the most widespread West Eurasian haplogroup in Northern China today.

A 2011 Y-dna study found that 10% of Northern Han Chinese from eastern Gansu and 8.9% of Northern Han from western Henan had the Y-dna R1a1.[95] In a 2014 paper, R1a1a has been detected in 1.8% (2/110) of Chinese samples. These two samples (R-M17, R-M198, R-M434, R-M458 for both) belonged to Han individuals from Fujian and Shanxi provinces.[96]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a

Now check for R-M458 on YFull:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M458/

The question is not if Indo-European ancestry came to Northern China, the question is just when and how it did. That doesn't mean that some individual cases can't be more extraordinary, having more recent admixture from traders, soldiers and adventurers. But considering the data we have, the steppe transmitted gene flow is much more likely.
 
So have some first preliminary results from YSEQ:

[FONT=&quot]Quick results summary:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]E1b-V13 Panel processing[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Z5017 G-[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Z5018 T+[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]S2979 processing[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Z16659 processing

So it appears I am somewhere in the [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]E-[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Z16659 branch... does anyone know much info about that branch?
[/FONT]
 
So far it seems you are proven to be positive for Z5018, downstream still processing. Z5018 is a very widespread and general European E-V13 branch. Let's see where you end up in detail. On Yfull there is no Chinese with the same haplotype so far, but that doesn't make it so special, because I know samples lacking from many places where there must be many thousands of carriers, yet none tested for Yfull so far.
Btw: I read about the huge efforts of the Chinese government to get more information about the genetics of its male citizens. If they use it for control, I hope they at least publish some scientific studies on the results too. Could be one of the most complete coverage of male genetic variation anywhere in the world done so far. Anything known so far?
 
Thank you :)

I had heard that the ancestral peninsula between Beijing and Korea (present day Shandong province, former State of Qi) my dad's family name (Tian) historically used to rule 2200-2400 years ago was previously inhabited by caucasians (guess probably steppe people) before the Han population expanding from the west overtook it. Wonder if it was possible some of the previous Shandong people were E-V13, if Marco Polo didn't bring it :)

I'm awaiting the YSEQ E-V13 panel in the mail to arrive to me, and hopefully with Covid the results won't take too much longer than usual. I will certainly share the results here.

I don't think steppe people made that far in China. As far as I know they were mostly restricted to the Tarim Basin and the western portion of Gansu.
 
I don't think steppe people made that far in China. As far as I know they were mostly restricted to the Tarim Basin and the western portion of Gansu.

There's a lot of evidence they went much further east than that.


“It is reasonable to presume that Andronovo influence extended as far as China. In the Anyang culture we find the momentous achievements of a world civilization - metallurgy, wheeled transport and horse-breeding-already in their developed form; the Yellow river displays no preceding development […] the formation of Chinese civilization was stimulated by a western impulse. In the Eurasian steppes metallurgy, wheeled transport and horse-breeding go back to the 4th millennium BC, while the types of celts, spears and single-edged knives of Anyang find their prototypes and analogies in the Andronovo and Seima-Turbino complexes." (p.251)

Northern Chinese populations may have received metal, wheat and barley, wheeled vehicles, the sheep and the horse from the Afanasevo tribes, who came from the west. The words for all these were borrowed into Chinese from Indo-European, presumably Tocharian. It is likely that the rites of domestic animal sacrifice, familiar in the European steppes from the 4th millennium BC, were also adopted. (p.252)

metallurgy in China emerged as early as the turn of the 3rd-2nd millennia BC under the influence of the Eurasian steppes. It was mediated not by the ethnically Chinese tribes of China’s northern periphery, but, initially, by the tribes of the Afanasevo culture and then the Seima-Turbino and Andronovo. Borrowed were the technology of making a bronze alloy, the use of gold and the casting of spears and celts with a concealed socket in two-part molds. Particularly active were the relations between Semirech’e, Fergana and eastern Kazakhstan and Xinjiang, where an Andronovo population settled and all the specific types of the implements of the Semirech’e metallurgical center were in general use. (p.255)

The most important innovation of the first quarter of the 2nd millennium BC was the spread of the light war-chariot with two spoked wheels, harnessed to a pair of horses. The oldest finds of chariots and horses in warrior’s graves are known from the Urals and on the Volga. Having emerged in the formative period of the Andronovo culture at the sites of Sintashta and Petrovka, chariots dominated the steppes in the third-quarter of the 2nd millennium BC in the Timber-grave and Andronovo cutures, which is evidenced by cheek-pieces, representations on vessels and on petroglyphs. The representations of chariots in Xinjiang are analogous to the Andronovo chariots of Kazakhstan and Semirech’e and are executed not in the Near Eastern manner in profile but in the Eurasian style en face, which indisputably corroborates their origin in the north-western steppes.

It is interesting that the graph denoting the chariot in the oracle-bone inscription resembles the pattern in petroglyphs of Central Asia. Chariots proper were discovered in the 1930s at the imperial cemetery of the Shang dynasty and near the palace in the capital of the Yin kingdom in Anyang and later in its neighborhood near Beijing. […] Beside the graves of the the kings and elite there were discovered the ‘chemaken’ pits (literally - ‘a pit with a chariot and horses’). Their date is 1250-1100 BC. They contained weapons, a chariot whose wheels were placed into segmented grooves analogous to those of Sintashta, and two horses, laid, as in Sintashta, on their side parallel to one another. […] The harness, as in Andronovo, has a nose-strap. In contrast to the Near Eastern wheels, the Chinese ones are multi-spoked, like those of Andronovo. Other peculiarities of construction of the Chinese chariots are also close to Andronovo, as far as one may judge from the petroglyphs. This points to the steppe origin of chariots in China. […]

Apparently, together with the horse and the chariot Yin China also adopted the art of horse training, their name, and religious and mythological concepts associated with them. The word ‘horse’ ma is an old Eurasian migrational term, and the name of the chariot stems from the Proto-Indo-European ‘wheel’ and came to Shang China via either Tocharian or early Iranian. The cult of the chariot and the horse and the rite of its sacrifice, particularly at the funeral of a king or military elite, is characteristic of the Indo-Iranians, and archaeologically it is attested in the Andronovo culture.Chinese myths about the connection of the emperor with the winged heavenly horses, which rendered him immortal, the horse coming out of water, the thunder chariot and the sun chariot used by the solar god for travelling over the earth, arise from the Indo-European and, particularly, Indo-Iranian mythology" (p.251-257)


'The origin of the Indo-Iranians' (Kuzmina 2007)



“In addition to technology we can look to an Iranian source for the name of the royal magicians or fortune-tellers of the Shang and Zhou courts. The modern Mandarin word for such a magician is ‘wu’ but this would earlier have been pronounced something close to ‘*myag’ or ‘*mag’ which suggests that it may have been borrowed from Iranian, e.g. Old Persian ‘magus’. … That people of a Caucasoid physical type became priest-magicians to the nascent Chinese state finds support from unexpected quarters. Several figures depicting what are widely regarded as Caucasoid physical types have been unearthed in both Shang and Zhou contexts. The two from the Zhou dynasty, recovered from the excavations of a palace in Shaanxi province, are small heads carved from shell. They display large and deep-set eyes, wide mouths, thin lips, large noses and narrow faces, all of which would tend to mark out a Europoid or Caucasoid physical type. Their conical headgear has also been compared with that of some of the steppe tribes. On top of one of them is the cruciform Chinese character for ‘mage’, a symbol which is also reprised in Western art to indicate a magician. So here we find the image of a European physical type in an early Zhou palace and designated with the Chinese word for a ‘magician-priest’, a word believed to derive from the earlier Iranian word of the same meaning. … With Western priests in court and Western chariots on the field in battle, perhaps it is time to consider to what extent the development of Chinese civilization itself was stimulated by Western ‘barbarians’.” (p.326)


'The Tarim Mummies' (Mallory and Mair 2000)


 
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Hard to believe E-V13 Z5018 was part of those early Steppe people that went east.
 
Hard to believe E-V13 Z5018 was part of those early Steppe people that went east.

Because it didn't happen. We have a wide variety samples from Indo-Iranian (Sintashta, Potapovka, Andronovo, and soon Fataynovo-Balanovo) in addition to a wide variety of samples from Central Asia during the Bronze and Iron Age plus Afanasievo, Okunevo and Tarim Basin samples. Not a single E-V13.
 
Because it didn't happen. We have a wide variety samples from Indo-Iranian (Sintashta, Potapovka, Andronovo, and soon Fataynovo-Balanovo) in addition to a wide variety of samples from Central Asia during the Bronze and Iron Age plus Afanasievo, Okunevo and Tarim Basin samples. Not a single E-V13.

There are also other minority lineages which didn't appear at all or only in a few remains. Unless there is more complete sampling and comparison, there can be no final conclusion on that. You can take 100 samples from a lot of people around the world and not getting the full variation. The same can be true for ancient people. Just remind you on how I1 is hiding so far and even appearing if at all "in the wrong places". The only really important groups to consider from this list are Sintashta-Andronovo. We have samples from those, but not yet enough and the later Indo-Iranians had renewed contacts to the West, at the Western steppe was E-V13, so it could have come from there. There are of course other options too.
 
Z5018 most likely evolved in related Vatina, Verbicioara cultures, also cultures such as Mediana. They occupied Central Balkans, modern SW Romania etc. This can be seen through TMRCA and even current dispersion of various clades.

Mediana culture people were proto Dardanians. That is they were original pre-Illyrian Dardanians who were conquered in Iron Age by the Glasinac culture Illyrians, who imposed the Illyrian language and culture. I suspect these proto-Dardanians were even predominately composed of Z5018 clades.

In Late Bronze Age Urnfield assault pushed many of these Vatina/Mediana elements Southwards, archaeological evidence exists for modern Southern Albania (where one finds some increased concentration), Greece, even Western Anatolia.

Important to note is that not only the Balkans, but the entire Danubian region was genetically autosomaly Paleo-Balkan. The entire modern Hungary, Romania, Moldavia, even Slovakia probably. They were all inhabited by Paleo-Balkan populations, so the real genetic Paleo-Balkan areal included the Pannonians and Daco-Getae as well, not just the Haemus peninsula.

If sojc is descendant of Marco Polo or something similar then he should closely cluster with some already identified cluster. This was Medieval and that is the age for most E-V13 clusters in the Balkans.

Z5018 is not some Steppe population but various clades of Z5018 were bordering the Steppe in MBA, so they could have been assimilated by Srubnaya and later elements.

Congrats on this result, albeit it is still basic. They are testing the
Z16659 and S2979 which are most widespread subclades of Z5018. As far as I know there are no Z16659* results thus far. If he is negative to these then they will try some less common clades. Under Z16659 there are some subclades which seem to have older presence in Russian areas too. It's still early to say something more.
 
There are also other minority lineages which didn't appear at all or only in a few remains. Unless there is more complete sampling and comparison, there can be no final conclusion on that. You can take 100 samples from a lot of people around the world and not getting the full variation. The same can be true for ancient people. Just remind you on how I1 is hiding so far and even appearing if at all "in the wrong places". The only really important groups to consider from this list are Sintashta-Andronovo. We have samples from those, but not yet enough and the later Indo-Iranians had renewed contacts to the West, at the Western steppe was E-V13, so it could have come from there. There are of course other options too.

That's a possibility. I think there was a J in Afanasievo recently which was unexpected.

There's also a clade of R1a called R1a2a that appears scant but might have been a steppe lineage (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19593-The-origin-of-the-mysterious-R1a2a-YP4141-gt-YP5018)
so maybe you're right.
 
If they found e-v22 in mongolia (why not e-v13 in china) 😉
mongolia BUR002 M U2e1 E1b1b1a1b2 (E-V22; E-L677) lateXiongnu_sarmatian


the xiongnu e-v22 individual from mongolia is close to sarmatians autosomally speaking
he might be some indo-iranian dude
 
Nobody expected to find many I2a in the Swat valley samples, but they were there. So clearly Sintastha and later Indo-Iranians, which all had close ties to the Carpathian region, brought male lineages from the West to the East.
 
Nobody expected to find many I2a in the Swat valley samples, but they were there. So clearly Sintastha and later Indo-Iranians, which all had close ties to the Carpathian region, brought male lineages from the West to the East.

True. There were only 2 though right?

Also I2a was found on the steppe. So it didn't necessarily have to come from the Carpathian.

On that note did the SWAT I2a guys leave any descendants in the region?
 
Also I2a was found on the steppe. So it didn't necessarily have to come from the Carpathian.

it can be from many places of course, since I2a was so widespread, but I think Carpathian/GAC is more likely. It was picked up by epi-Corded Ware which got additional South Eastern, Carpathian influences -> Sintashta evolved and this was formative for Indo-Iranians.

On that note did the SWAT I2a guys leave any descendants in the region?

To me it seems they were part of an early, not as successful immigration of steppe people. Going after the very general data from Wiki, they left descendents in the North of Indo-Pakistan, parts of South-Central Asia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia

This could have been because of later steppe people, but its nevertheless interesting that its most common among people which have Iranian influences (like Hazara, Tajik and Jats) rather than Indo-Aryan. So it could have been an even later wave rather than direct descendents.
 

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