Chinese E-V13 CTS1273 ?

it can be from many places of course, since I2a was so widespread, but I think Carpathian/GAC is more likely. It was picked up by epi-Corded Ware which got additional South Eastern, Carpathian influences -> Sintashta evolved and this was formative for Indo-Iranians.



To me it seems they were part of an early, not as successful immigration of steppe people. Going after the very general data from Wiki, they left descendents in the North of Indo-Pakistan, parts of South-Central Asia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia

This could have been because of later steppe people, but its nevertheless interesting that its most common among people which have Iranian influences (like Hazara, Tajik and Jats) rather than Indo-Aryan. So it could have been an even later wave rather than direct descendents.

Are those figures valid?

Hazara are mostly Mongolized Tajiks. Jats are Indo-Aryans. 1% I in them would mean ~200K guys with I in the region. That seems wrong for some reason.
 
Because it didn't happen. We have a wide variety samples from Indo-Iranian (Sintashta, Potapovka, Andronovo, and soon Fataynovo-Balanovo) in addition to a wide variety of samples from Central Asia during the Bronze and Iron Age plus Afanasievo, Okunevo and Tarim Basin samples. Not a single E-V13.


There are 2 E cases in iron age steppe
One is a saka e- m123* y31991 from 500-700 bc north east
Kazachstan no turks during this time
So he probably spoke iranian language 🤔
The other one is an an individual MJ40 east scytian from south ural who dated to 300-150 bc
And he belonged to e- m84 or a branch derived from it....

P.s
Afcorse at the moment it look like
E wasn't important as r1a , q , j or r1b in the steppe
But this 2 e1b1b1 cases could indicate migration from south central asia north
 
it can be from many places of course, since I2a was so widespread, but I think Carpathian/GAC is more likely. It was picked up by epi-Corded Ware which got additional South Eastern, Carpathian influences -> Sintashta evolved and this was formative for Indo-Iranians.

To me it seems they were part of an early, not as successful immigration of steppe people. Going after the very general data from Wiki, they left descendents in the North of Indo-Pakistan, parts of South-Central Asia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia

This could have been because of later steppe people, but its nevertheless interesting that its most common among people which have Iranian influences (like Hazara, Tajik and Jats) rather than Indo-Aryan. So it could have been an even later wave rather than direct descendents.

Khavalynsk had some I2a


... any connection to the Ural megaliths? Who knows.

Actually there are megalithic dolmens in India which are identical to dolmens in the Caucasus and Europe.
 
Khavalynsk had some I2a


... any connection to the Ural megaliths? Who knows.

Actually there are megalithic dolmens in India which are identical to dolmens in the Caucasus and Europe.

I wasn't aware of I2a in Khavalynsk. I thought it was predominantly R1b with minor R1a and Q1a.
 
Interestingly haplogroup I is more common in those tribes which also have R1b. Khvalynsk was generally speaking a dead end, but so was Cucuteni?Trypillia culture (where I think E-V13 was hiding, but can be wrong) and to a lesser degree GAC as well, so it could have come from all of them.
 
Interestingly haplogroup I is more common in those tribes which also have R1b. Khvalynsk was generally speaking a dead end, but so was Cucuteni�Trypillia culture (where I think E-V13 was hiding, but can be wrong) and to a lesser degree GAC as well, so it could have come from all of them.

Spanish E-V13 from Early Neolithic make it really hard to argue E-V13 was among Cucuteni.
 
Spanish E-V13 from Early Neolithic make it really hard to argue E-V13 was among Cucuteni.

I didn't say it was only in TCC or first, because it seems to have spread with Cardial-Impresso first. But it was also there and that most of the modern E-V13 might descend from a male or clan which simply joined the steppe-train one way or another. Of course, they could have joined further South (Balkan) or West (Dalmatia, Pannonia) too, that's the big unknown right now.
Or do you think E-V13 joined multiple times regionally? Isn't the TMRCA too small for that? Do you think E1b from Cardial and Michelsberg did survive? How much of it? In any case it seems most of the E-V13 can be attributed to a more recent, Bronze to EIA expansion from the Balkan-Carpathian region and I just think that TCC is a good candidate to have joined the steppe people's movements. Besides we already have one sample from there.
 
I didn't say it was only in TCC or first, because it seems to have spread with Cardial-Impresso first. But it was also there and that most of the modern E-V13 might descend from a male or clan which simply joined the steppe-train one way or another. Of course, they could have joined further South (Balkan) or West (Dalmatia, Pannonia) too, that's the big unknown right now.
Or do you think E-V13 joined multiple times regionally? Isn't the TMRCA too small for that? Do you think E1b from Cardial and Michelsberg did survive? How much of it? In any case it seems most of the E-V13 can be attributed to a more recent, Bronze to EIA expansion from the Balkan-Carpathian region and I just think that TCC is a good candidate to have joined the steppe people's movements. Besides we already have one sample from there.

I don't know, just made an assumption. Because the E-V13 mutation might have happened somewhere in between Italy and Austria/Switzerland/Hungary those regions which latter might have spread more east.

Today's diversity of E-V13 around Romania and Moldavia is minimal and it's the third or fourth most common Y-DNA, add the fact that Balkan E-V13 diversity might have been devastated by Justinian Plague, we don't know so far. So far we have two reliable Y-DNA E-V13 from ancient samples, Spanish Cardial Ware, and Thracian from a South Bulgarian city, the third one Scythian from Moldova is unreliable, both by age estimation and the Y-DNA initially was revealed to be R1b then E-V13.
 
So far we have two reliable Y-DNA E-V13 from ancient samples, Spanish Cardial Ware, and Thracian from a South Bulgarian city, the third one Scythian from Moldova is unreliable, both by age estimation and the Y-DNA initially was revealed to be R1b then E-V13.

That's true, but I'd say that's mostly due to the bad resolution of most samples, because many upstream E1b samples might have been either pre-V13 or V13 itself. Afaik even the Iberian Cardial sample is predicted only (?), but quite safely so. We will see where we find more and which culture(s) spread it primarily. The principle mechanism might have been pretty much the same either way, because so far we have no culture beside Michelsberg with a high percentage of E1b anyway and the TMRCA does point to a steppe-initiated expansion from a fairly small group, no large scale survival of a wider variation, regardless of where the source was.
 
Today's diversity of E-V13 around Romania and Moldavia is minimal and it's the third or fourth most common Y-DNA,

Their diversity is not minimal, I can list at least 20 different clades of E-V13 in ethnic Romanians/Moldovans right now. It is only not apparent because Romanians/Moldovans are 10-20 times less tested than Albanians, Serbs, Bulgarians.. There are 3 ethnic Romanian E-V13 NGS's, there are at least 33 ethnic Albanian E-V13 NGS's..

Most common hg in Romanians is I-Y3120, a Slavic clade (nothing to do with Dacians in a formative sense as you idiotically claimed on Anthrogenica, bar some dacianized Bastarnae that probably exist among the poorly sequenced Romanians), second most common is R1a, vast majority are Slavic clades, Z93 are rare. Once these newer Slavic arrivals (or in the case of I2a it is Bastarnae arrival too) are adjusted for, once Germanic arrivals (I1, R-U106) are adjusted for, the picture changes alot. Besides Romanians/Moldovans have 15 % of E-V13 when all studies samples are taken into account so it is still the 3rd strongest hg, though R1b is close too. Though once the structure of Romanian R1b is looked at, vast majority are L51+, many are U106+, others are U152 arrivals to that region (Roman, Celtic, Urnfield), majority of relatively weak Z2103 is not native to there as well (such as proto-Albanian R-Z2705, then Aromanian/Greek cluster). So all of this increases the % of V13 among the natives of the area. Of course various V13's came from Bulgaria and Central Balkan area too.

add the fact that Balkan E-V13 diversity might have been devastated by Justinian Plague, we don't know so far.

Justinian Plague had an impact but so did various Barbarian migratory events which had modern Pannonian/Dacian areas as their starting point. That is I1/U106 Germanics surely had better chance of pushing some V13 locals from those areas then they had with the Balkan areas.

But this is moot point anyway, as I've said, not only the Balkan peninsula but the entire Danubian region was Paleo-Balkan autosomally, so it's logical to expect Paleo-Balkan hg's there.

You seem to have an emotional blockade triggering whenever some E-V13 north of Danube is mentioned, because of your dislike for the Slavs I guess, so you don't want V13 to have ties to those regions. But V13 indeed does have ties to those regions and even though currently Balkan is better tested than Transdanubian areas, we can estimate that the CTS1273+, BY3880- ancestor did not live in the Balkans, though great many of his immediate descendants did spread around the Balkans soon after.

So far we have two reliable Y-DNA E-V13 from ancient samples, Spanish Cardial Ware, and Thracian from a South Bulgarian city,

Most relevant is the E-L618 Cardial Dalmatian. Spanish Cardial was outnumbered by 3 or 4 G2a, so it might not have been that relevant. Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic is the only Cardial and almost Neolithic element in Europe for whose continued existence there is archaeological evidence until the arrival of IE's, and there is for their participation in the formation of Cetina culture.

the third one Scythian from Moldova is unreliable, both by age estimation and the Y-DNA initially was revealed to be R1b then E-V13.

It is not unreliable in any shape or form, the age datation is off but the site dates from 300 BC, I've seen the traits of E-V13 burial it dates from around 300 BC. it cannot date from any other period.

R1b SNP calls are false, and there were plenty of other false SNP calls in this study.
 
^^ I don't bother with your propaganda from Sumadija University. You write with no context. We all know in detail about those informations, there is no need for parroting. I pressume since you have Albanian subclade you are sort of devoid of reality.

That's true, but I'd say that's mostly due to the bad resolution of most samples, because many upstream E1b samples might have been either pre-V13 or V13 itself. Afaik even the Iberian Cardial sample is predicted only (?), but quite safely so. We will see where we find more and which culture(s) spread it primarily. The principle mechanism might have been pretty much the same either way, because so far we have no culture beside Michelsberg with a high percentage of E1b anyway and the TMRCA does point to a steppe-initiated expansion from a fairly small group, no large scale survival of a wider variation, regardless of where the source was.

New ancient samples will reveal eventually, North-West Greece and South Albania will be the landing point of E-L618, then it should have mimicked the Cardial spread, though they were probably dominated by G2a again but most likely heavy influenced by a culture similar to Iberomaurisians/Natufians, E-L618 is the best candidate. I am not sure about the actual E-V13 mutation though. Danubian Farmers look less likely, only one Cucuteni E-M78*.
 
^^ I don't bother with your propaganda from Sumadija University. You write with no context. I pressume since you have Albanian subclade you are sort of devoid of reality.

1. I've never been in Sumadija in my whole life. Also I have more reason to "hate Serbs" than just about any Albanians. In reality I don't care much about Serbs nor about Albanians. I'll tell you though what I surely am: Darwinist in a fully practical sense, and that is something neither of these ethnicities are based upon (though Albanians have more of it). Especially not the likes of you and your close cousin Derite from your posts.

2. My clade is not Albanian, there is not a single Albanian genetically closer to me than Iron Age, while there are much closer connections to Serbs (from Pecheneg places and links), Bulgarians, Bosniaks, Romanians, then Hungarians and quite possibly Ukrainians and Uzbeks as well. There are also some Z17107+, likely Y30991- Russians.. There are Swedes with Iron Age relations to these proto-Albanians (closer than me). Are they Albanians? LOL. My clade if it is Illyrian it must be Pannonian, so something like that Iron Age Croatian autosomally, modern North Italian, far from Albanians or Greeks. But it is more likely that my clade is Dacian looking at current hard evidence I have. Third option is some Triballian but its least likely.

3. My distant cousin clade is proto-Albanian, while your clade might have been assimilated along the way somewhere or it was proto-Albanian too. You are originally a minor clade in Albanians that recently demographically exploded in Kosovo Albanians, it almost doesn't exist in Albania. Your clade in a study sample makes up 11 % of Kosovo Albanians and 25 % of Kosovar V13. You have Cretan Greek, Macedonian Greeks (with whom you have Early Iron Age links), who are genetically closer to you than any other Albanian Z5018's. Greeks seem to have a TMRCA of 2000-2500 years between themselves (or even more). They are no Arvanites.

One of these Greeks has BigY but hasn't uploaded yet to YFull.

New ancient samples will reveal eventually, North-West Greece and South Albania will be the landing point of E-L618, then it should have mimicked the Cardial spread, though they were probably dominated by G2a again but most likely heavy influenced by a culture similar to Iberomaurisians/Natufians, E-L618 is the best candidate. I am not sure about the actual E-V13 mutation though. Danubian Farmers look less likely, only one Cucuteni E-M78*.

NW Greece and South Albania might have been the place where some E-L618 dwelled. Originally they might have landed initially in some Greek islands. I don't disagree with you that E-L618 was present there. They were genetically overwhelmingly similar to usual G2a cultures, though they seem to have had some minor Natufian-like/IM-like element, and culturally likely some influences.

But that's not my main point nor interest. Those days were not great days from my own Darwinist POV. EEF's were not war-like, they were rather weak. I care about when and how V13 started spreading around in Bronze Age, our ancestor rejecting the obsolete Old European ways and embracing the superior Indoeuropean ways of fulfilling Evolutionary Laws.

And the only current fit into that is Cetina culture. Cetina was a Balkan warlike culture, with social stratification, weapons, Kurgan burials and all that went with the new Order at the time.

To sum it up, V13 could have spread from Cetina, that is from the Balkans entirely or as SNP and archeological evidence suggests, CTS1273 was picked up by a Yamnaya variant and started spreading from modern-day Romania. Either case there is no archaeological evidence for any bronze Age spread of V13 out of Southern Albania. You mentioned Maliq BA, that V13 might be found there, you are right, but Maliq IIIa was an ofshoot of Cetina people. There were some Maliq II EEF remnants but they were killed off. There was no continuity. So if we find E-V13 in Maliq BA that's great because they were Cetina ofshoot, and who knows they might have killed some of their own cousins in Maliq II, though I suspect they were again mostly G2a.

In fact I wish to explore why did V13 survive although it was far less common in Neolithic than G2a. Of G2a there is a robust L497 clade, other than that nothing rivaling V13 expansion. I think it might have been the creepiness of E-V13 people in Dalmatia who practiced the IM/Natufian skull cult for thousands of years that might have impressed the IE's. :grin:
 
I rather say the V13 clan was accepted because it had something to offer. Probably they were good artisans, like smiths or the like. Because its fascinating how widespread V13 became so fast, in different territories of steppe derived people. This could have had, at least at some point, something to do with a special role they fulfilled, either in the Bronze Age or the early Iron Age, probably in both times in different ways. Some of the distribution is so hard to explain by anything like a compact tribe and better by a split up clan/people among different tribes I'd say. Especially that some clades seem to have split at roughly the same time and went in completely different directions afterwards, not with their closest kin, but with other clades of V13. That looks suspicious in the described way, but I might be off. Can only be proven by detailed analyses, many samples and burial context etc.
 
1. I've never been in Sumadija in my whole life. Also I have more reason to "hate Serbs" than just about any Albanians. In reality I don't care much about Serbs nor about Albanians. I'll tell you though what I surely am: Darwinist in a fully practical sense, and that is something neither of these ethnicities are based upon (though Albanians have more of it). Especially not the likes of you and your close cousin Derite from your posts.

You took the Sumadija part too seriously, it was a joke. I cannot figure out your exact ethnic affiliations, Bosnian, Montenegrin, Serb, Pecheneg, what?

2. My clade is not Albanian, there is not a single Albanian genetically closer to me than Iron Age, while there are much closer connections to Serbs (from Pecheneg places and links), Bulgarians, Bosniaks, Romanians, then Hungarians and quite possibly Ukrainians and Uzbeks as well. There are also some Z17107+, likely Y30991- Russians.. There are Swedes with Iron Age relations to these proto-Albanians (closer than me). Are they Albanians? LOL. My clade if it is Illyrian it must be Pannonian, so something like that Iron Age Croatian autosomally, modern North Italian, far from Albanians or Greeks. But it is more likely that my clade is Dacian looking at current hard evidence I have. Third option is some Triballian but its least likely.

I can see that all your assumptions come from yFull, but when we have very large dataset things get more clearer.

3. My distant cousin clade is proto-Albanian, while your clade might have been assimilated along the way somewhere or it was proto-Albanian too. You are originally a minor clade in Albanians that recently demographically exploded in Kosovo Albanians, it almost doesn't exist in Albania. Your clade in a study sample makes up 11 % of Kosovo Albanians and 25 % of Kosovar V13. You have Cretan Greek, Macedonian Greeks (with whom you have Early Iron Age links), who are genetically closer to you than any other Albanian Z5018's. Greeks seem to have a TMRCA of 2000-2500 years between themselves (or even more). They are no Arvanites.

One of these Greeks has BigY but hasn't uploaded yet to YFull.

You didn't mention one thing, S2979 which i belong to, is the most common mutation among Albanians, for instance the South Albanian Labs are exclusively S2979, it's widespread from North to South. The specific Berisha-Sopi clade has closest ties to an Italian, Bulgarian from Plovdiv, Italian again, that Cretan Greek, German, Irish, Dutch. The connection looks strange, but it is there.

NW Greece and South Albania might have been the place where some E-L618 dwelled. Originally they might have landed initially in some Greek islands. I don't disagree with you that E-L618 was present there. They were genetically overwhelmingly similar to usual G2a cultures, though they seem to have had some minor Natufian-like/IM-like element, and culturally likely some influences.

But that's not my main point nor interest. Those days were not great days from my own Darwinist POV. EEF's were not war-like, they were rather weak. I care about when and how V13 started spreading around in Bronze Age, our ancestor rejecting the obsolete Old European ways and embracing the superior Indoeuropean ways of fulfilling Evolutionary Laws.

And the only current fit into that is Cetina culture. Cetina was a Balkan warlike culture, with social stratification, weapons, Kurgan burials and all that went with the new Order at the time.

To sum it up, V13 could have spread from Cetina, that is from the Balkans entirely or as SNP and archeological evidence suggests, CTS1273 was picked up by a Yamnaya variant and started spreading from modern-day Romania. Either case there is no archaeological evidence for any bronze Age spread of V13 out of Southern Albania. You mentioned Maliq BA, that V13 might be found there, you are right, but Maliq IIIa was an ofshoot of Cetina people. There were some Maliq II EEF remnants but they were killed off. There was no continuity. So if we find E-V13 in Maliq BA that's great because they were Cetina ofshoot, and who knows they might have killed some of their own cousins in Maliq II, though I suspect they were again mostly G2a.

In fact I wish to explore why did V13 survive although it was far less common in Neolithic than G2a. Of G2a there is a robust L497 clade, other than that nothing rivaling V13 expansion. I think it might have been the creepiness of E-V13 people in Dalmatia who practiced the IM/Natufian skull cult for thousands of years that might have impressed the IE's. :grin:

The case of EEF and G2a is a thing which i am very curious to know why and how it ceased to diminish, i doubt they were so peaceful as some want to depict them, G2a colonized the whole of Europe and likely their dominance started to weaken due to a series of pandemics, something which the Steppe people took advantage of.

In case of E-L618 there is some speculation that it was already in late Mesolithic Europe, some say it came directly from Iberomaurusians crossing from Tunisian shores to Sicily but it doesn't look so likely.
 
You took the Sumadija part too seriously, it was a joke. I cannot figure out your exact ethnic affiliations, Bosnian, Montenegrin, Serb, Pecheneg, what?

I am 1/4 "Montenegrin"(actually Lim area, none of my paternal ancestors ever lived in historical "Montenegro", this became Montenegro in 1912), the rest of my ancestry is Central Bosnia. Actually I have relatives 1800 years distant close to where majority of my ancestry is from, even though my paternal clade has no historic connection to Bosnia.

Oh I'd most definitely affiliate with Pechenegs most, there are plenty of others of my clade who can identify with whatever they want. I am a specialist in Nomads.
I have 900-1000 years distant cousins ("unknown origin" in literature even though they are most numerous family in the village) in a Pecheneg named village, next to which there are villages named after a Pecheneg or precisely Berendei clan, it was settled there and given possessions by a Bulgarian ruler Ivan Asen II because they brought him to power. In 1253, the new Bulgarian ruler, his son, invaded Serbia, namely Bijelo Polje area where my clan is old. Actually one Serb family with origin from Peshter , around 500 years away from me, has an old surname almost identical to the surname of this Pecheneg clan which settled in a Pecheneg village where I do have no more than 1000 years distant cousin. Also my own surname is old, and similar to a distinct Pecheneg name. This important as these surnames are old, and non-existant in Serbs.
Note where my family is from, that is my genetics, there are various villages of Bulgarian origin, which is paradoxal for Serbia-Montenegro border region. One of them is Boljare (Bolyars were Bulgarian nobility).

I have a 1000 years distant cousin in Vojvodina, unknown ethnicity. Of these Serbs tested from there thus far (200), no relatives. This guy could be some earlier migratory connection, as he is not close to others. Both Romanians and Hungarians from Vojvodina have groups of likely Pecheneg origins. So if he's not a Serb he is certainly very interesting. And we do know from that sample where he appears that lot of samples are not Serb (huge R1b L51 percentage being one difference for ex., many samples of various hg's cluster with non-Serbs).

Bosniaks in a clade E-FT192275 have a NW Romanian (from a Hungarian city) about 1000 years distant too, so they might not be local in Bosnia. In fact one of these Bosniaks migth be related to a medieval Bosnian noble family which showed some likely Nomad links. And not only that, the early Bosnian ruler, ban Kulin had a Pecheneg name.
It would be weird for these Bosniaks to have Vlach origins as Vlach ancestry in Central Bosnia is so rare to non-existant. That is why Bosniaks call Serbs "Vlachs" as they have more Vlach ancestry and most of Serbs from Bosnia and Serbia had Vlach legal status in 15th, 16th century.

The only Kulin in recorded history prior to him was the son of this man, and this name is considered Pecheneg by the experts. He took later the Byzantine name.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannes_Kegen

Bosniaks are very similar to Croats and Serbs except they have some genetics derived from Hungarian areas, this includes a Jasz G2a clade, a proto Magyar N-M2019 clade. Like these it seems mine have connection to Central Bosnia, this is where original Bosnia was formed in 10th century. This is the only way proto-Bosnians can end up being different from proto-Serbs and proto-Croats, as no such tribe was ever attested prior to 10th century.

Thus far two tested Bessenyei from Hungary. One is E-V13, probably CTS9320+ but he doesn't seem close to somebody. The other is I-Y125026 without some close matches again. But there must be dozens, I think at least 50, possibly 100 of separate Besenyi/Bessenyei families. Thus far if its about Pechenegs, my own cluster is the only instance when some likely Pecheneg connections occur in families that are up to 1000 years away, who never had any tradition of being related to each other and who are 180 km distant geographically. I expect most from Romanian Berindei families, who are also numerous, because these connections I found seem to be specifically Berendei.

My clan is not native to Western Balkans, due to multiple specific STR's occurring in Bulgarian border area cousins, I know my ancestors arrived from there in Medieval times. If they are native in MNE they would have to have made a full circle, migrating from Western Balkans to Shop region and then coming back which makes little sense.

I can see that all your assumptions come from yFull, but when we have very large dataset things get more clearer.

My own subclade is a loser due to low testing in some areas where I have certain close genetic relatives. But also it is very recognizable, due to that, even looking at scientific papers about Albanians there were no closer relatives.

No, I don't look solely at YFull, there is a Russian Z17107* who hasn't uploaded to YFull, should be Y30991- though he has no reading on it. There are Ukrainian, Polish Z17107+, Z38456- without a BigY, they are 99% Y30991+, so at the same level as me. And they show some similarities with A24066, if they are A24070+, they will almost certainly split the A24066 clade. And so will eventually one Uzbek sample. That would make things quite different. Anyways hopefully we can have BigY of this clade too.

You didn't mention one thing, S2979 which i belong to, is the most common mutation among Albanians, for instance the South Albanian Labs are exclusively S2979, it's widespread from North to South. The specific Berisha-Sopi clade has closest ties to an Italian, Bulgarian from Plovdiv, Italian again, that Cretan Greek, German, Irish, Dutch. The connection looks strange, but it is there.

S2979 is pretty old and extremely dispersed even around the Balkans. Z16659 for ex., and its subclade Y3183 almost certainly has a more Eastern Balkan origin point. Reason: two Bulgarian clades, the E-CTS4431 and another not on YFull yet, that are S2972-.

On Serbian forum to support a Slavic origin for I-Y3120 against some Deretic followers, I saw someone using the fact that most of Serb identified clusters have Polish, Ukrainian cousins who are genetically closer to them than other Serb clusters. And that these links date to Migration Period.

With Albanian S2979 clades you see something similar, LBA ties to other areas and ethnic groups. Why does this occur? Because in chaotic times of invasions, especially in groups that are pushed by another group, brothers get separated from brothers and they migrate with some distant cousins, while some of their brothers stay together with the brothers of someone else. So this suggests Albanian S2979 is also connected to some large migratory event which happened in LBA. As we see distant cousins popping up in Greece, the only such event was the Bronze Age Collapse.

The case of EEF and G2a is a thing which i am very curious to know why and how it ceased to diminish, i doubt they were so peaceful as some want to depict them, G2a colonized the whole of Europe and likely their dominance started to weaken due to a series of pandemics, something which the Steppe people took advantage of.

In case of E-L618 there is some speculation that it was already in late Mesolithic Europe, some say it came directly from Iberomaurusians crossing from Tunisian shores to Sicily but it doesn't look so likely.

I guess they couldn't have been that peaceful, after all Otzi died in combat. And they still imposed their culture upon WHG's.

E-L618 would have to arrive in pre-Neolithic times to Balkans to have some IM connection. IM's dissapeared before the Neolithic, they were replaced by Capsians who are in turn hypothesized to have arrived from Levant. There is an Algerian E-L618 related to the Saudis, I thought he might be some link, but it turned our they have some IA connection to Albanian E-L618's.

Make no mistake, evidence of EEF's surviving for a long time until the EBA is very rare. But it does exist for Dalmatian Cardials. And I am not aware any other EEF group practiced this skull cult, not even the closely related Cardials in Apulia!! Nobody in Neolithic Europe practiced this cult. Why?? Because only in Dalmatian Cardials were the E-L618 dominant?? Right now there are two Dalmatian Cardial finds, E-L618 and C-V20. No G2a there. And this practice was the only thing present in all stages of Dalmatian Neolithic, Early, Middle, Late, and there is evidence of it even in Cetina culture. I think it's quite clear. The clade such as E-Y37092 literally mimics the Cetina culture in spread and age.

So as E-M35 admin proposed long time ago I believe E-V13 began with Cetina culture. Non Y37092 clades are probably connected to some closely related cultures.
 
I am 1/4 "Montenegrin"(actually Lim area, none of my paternal ancestors ever lived in historical "Montenegro", this became Montenegro in 1912), the rest of my ancestry is Central Bosnia. Actually I have relatives 1800 years distant close to where majority of my ancestry is from, even though my paternal clade has no historic connection to Bosnia.

Oh I'd most definitely affiliate with Pechenegs most, there are plenty of others of my clade who can identify with whatever they want. I am a specialist in Nomads.
I have 900-1000 years distant cousins ("unknown origin" in literature even though they are most numerous family in the village) in a Pecheneg named village, next to which there are villages named after a Pecheneg or precisely Berendei clan, it was settled there and given possessions by a Bulgarian ruler Ivan Asen II because they brought him to power. In 1253, the new Bulgarian ruler, his son, invaded Serbia, namely Bijelo Polje area where my clan is old. Actually one Serb family with origin from Peshter , around 500 years away from me, has an old surname almost identical to the surname of this Pecheneg clan which settled in a Pecheneg village where I do have no more than 1000 years distant cousin. Also my own surname is old, and similar to a distinct Pecheneg name. This important as these surnames are old, and non-existant in Serbs.
Note where my family is from, that is my genetics, there are various villages of Bulgarian origin, which is paradoxal for Serbia-Montenegro border region. One of them is Boljare (Bolyars were Bulgarian nobility).

I have a 1000 years distant cousin in Vojvodina, unknown ethnicity. Of these Serbs tested from there thus far (200), no relatives. This guy could be some earlier migratory connection, as he is not close to others. Both Romanians and Hungarians from Vojvodina have groups of likely Pecheneg origins. So if he's not a Serb he is certainly very interesting. And we do know from that sample where he appears that lot of samples are not Serb (huge R1b L51 percentage being one difference for ex., many samples of various hg's cluster with non-Serbs).

Bosniaks in a clade E-FT192275 have a NW Romanian (from a Hungarian city) about 1000 years distant too, so they might not be local in Bosnia. In fact one of these Bosniaks migth be related to a medieval Bosnian noble family which showed some likely Nomad links. And not only that, the early Bosnian ruler, ban Kulin had a Pecheneg name.
It would be weird for these Bosniaks to have Vlach origins as Vlach ancestry in Central Bosnia is so rare to non-existant. That is why Bosniaks call Serbs "Vlachs" as they have more Vlach ancestry and most of Serbs from Bosnia and Serbia had Vlach legal status in 15th, 16th century.

The only Kulin in recorded history prior to him was the son of this man, and this name is considered Pecheneg by the experts. He took later the Byzantine name.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannes_Kegen

Bosniaks are very similar to Croats and Serbs except they have some genetics derived from Hungarian areas, this includes a Jasz G2a clade, a proto Magyar N-M2019 clade. Like these it seems mine have connection to Central Bosnia, this is where original Bosnia was formed in 10th century. This is the only way proto-Bosnians can end up being different from proto-Serbs and proto-Croats, as no such tribe was ever attested prior to 10th century.

Thus far two tested Bessenyei from Hungary. One is E-V13, probably CTS9320+ but he doesn't seem close to somebody. The other is I-Y125026 without some close matches again. But there must be dozens, I think at least 50, possibly 100 of separate Besenyi/Bessenyei families. Thus far if its about Pechenegs, my own cluster is the only instance when some likely Pecheneg connections occur in families that are up to 1000 years away, who never had any tradition of being related to each other and who are 180 km distant geographically. I expect most from Romanian Berindei families, who are also numerous, because these connections I found seem to be specifically Berendei.

My clan is not native to Western Balkans, due to multiple specific STR's occurring in Bulgarian border area cousins, I know my ancestors arrived from there in Medieval times. If they are native in MNE they would have to have made a full circle, migrating from Western Balkans to Shop region and then coming back which makes little sense.



My own subclade is a loser due to low testing in some areas where I have certain close genetic relatives. But also it is very recognizable, due to that, even looking at scientific papers about Albanians there were no closer relatives.

No, I don't look solely at YFull, there is a Russian Z17107* who hasn't uploaded to YFull, should be Y30991- though he has no reading on it. There are Ukrainian, Polish Z17107+, Z38456- without a BigY, they are 99% Y30991+, so at the same level as me. And they show some similarities with A24066, if they are A24070+, they will almost certainly split the A24066 clade. And so will eventually one Uzbek sample. That would make things quite different. Anyways hopefully we can have BigY of this clade too.

But even if this is all accurate, this is still not an argument for an origin of your branch of E-V13 from Kazakhstan. It would just make your branch possibly a local lineage here that allied with them in some way. I'm sure we can find local lineages that expanded in the Balkans as allies with Ottomans, but it wouldn't make their origin Ottoman. Likewise I still don't see the argument for how your branch of E-V13 comes from Kazakhstan regions around 1000 years ago.

I think these turkic tribes must have had some local allies here, and that this is quite an understudied area, but I don't agree that this entails having turkic origin, even if they were great "loyalists". There should be a clear distinction made when referring to possible allied locals, assimilated locals, and actual authentic turkic origin haplogroups.
 
I remember also some J2b-L283 showing up around the volga that apparantly had a middle ages origin from the Balkans to there. So it is possible that there was even interaction the complete other way around, with balkaners being employed as mercenaries or something for these turkic kingdoms.
 
Maybe Aspurg can find something in Serbo-Croatian about this Middle Neolithic Site. With what culture is Danilo Middle Neolithic related to, predecessor and successor cultures i mean?

[FONT=&quot]The human skeleton in question was excavated over 50 years ago at the Early/Middle Neolithic site at Smilčić - Barice, near Zadar in southern Croatia. After the excavation the skeleton was transported in one block to the Archaeological Museum in Zadar where it stayed almost forgotten for over half a century. We wanted to re-evaluate these “old” bones by using modern techniques, but also to show that even such “forgotten” cases can be scientifically valued to the fullest extent. The presented study consists of radiocarbon dating, preliminary bioarchaeological analysis, ancient DNA analysis as well as nitrogen and carbon stable isotopes analysis. The skeleton was directly dated to 5210-5026 cal BCE, i.e. to Danilo Middle Neolithic culture. The study showed that the skeleton belongs to a middle-aged male, around 40 years of age, who suffered from several pathological changes, most probably associated with advanced age (vertebral osteophytosis and Achilles tendon ossification). The individual was relatively robust with a height of about 165 cm. Archaeogenetic analysis confirmed that this is a male individual - his mitochondrial DNA belongs to haplogroup T2g2 while his Y-DNA belongs to haplogroup G2a2a. Stable isotopes analysis suggests that his diet was mostly based on C3 terrestrial products with a very low intake of animal proteins and/or sea fish. This study showed the importance of re- evaluation of “old” archaeological bones with modern techniques and the amount of new data we can gain by using such an approach.

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[FONT=&quot]https://www.bib.irb.hr/1040845
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One sample, Y-DNA G2a.
 

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