Chinese E-V13 CTS1273 ?

[Aspurg]

But even if this is all accurate, this is still not an argument for an origin of your branch of E-V13 from Kazakhstan. It would just make your branch possibly a local lineage here that allied with them in some way. I'm sure we can find local lineages that expanded in the Balkans as allies with Ottomans, but it wouldn't make their origin Ottoman. Likewise I still don't see the argument for how your branch of E-V13 comes from Kazakhstan regions around 1000 years ago.

I think these turkic tribes must have had some local allies here, and that this is quite an understudied area, but I don't agree that this entails having turkic origin, even if they were great "loyalists". There should be a clear distinction made when referring to possible allied locals, assimilated locals, and actual authentic turkic origin haplogroups.

If this Ukrainian clade is related to mine, my clade might be an ofshoot of this clade, and this Uzbek guy could be closer to me than to them. This could be some old link (even some Cimmerian, or Getae-Sarmatian). Pechenegs are bit of a mystery, 3 out of 9 of their tribes were surely from Central-Asia, some of other tribes could have had other origins. Apparently according to anthropological evidence they were more Caucasoid than Cumans and Uz.

The real Ottoman non-Asian descended people are for ex. some J2a clades. in Turks from Macedonia there is a J2a haplotype, very common among them, these obviously came from Anatolia, in Anatolia they were picked up by the Seljuks. There are many R-Z2705 among them too, but these might be more recently assimilated people.

Turkics were inclusive generally, no wonder as the progenitor of proto-Turkic language is hg Q and even Steppe Turkics were not pred. of Q clades.

Regarding Volga J-L283, in Tatars namely, their TMRCA is Medieval but their further relatives are about 2400 years away, one of them Chechen, so this clade could have been assimilated by the Scythians.

Actually in one small Cuman sample from Hungary occurs some J-PH4679 under which is one of proto-Albanian clades. In this sample there is Central Asian R-Y14051 peaking in Kumandin people so they do have some proto-Cuman ancestry too. Many scenarios are possible, maybe these J-PH4679 were Byzantines captured by the Cumans.

Though I've been looking now at this haplotype, it seems PH4679+ but Y161916-, Y20899- (or at that level) so it might be very distant from Albanians, even LBA.

 

[Riverman]

But even if this is all accurate, this is still not an argument for an origin of your branch of E-V13 from Kazakhstan. It would just make your branch possibly a local lineage here that allied with them in some way. I'm sure we can find local lineages that expanded in the Balkans as allies with Ottomans, but it wouldn't make their origin Ottoman. Likewise I still don't see the argument for how your branch of E-V13 comes from Kazakhstan regions around 1000 years ago.

I think these turkic tribes must have had some local allies here, and that this is quite an understudied area, but I don't agree that this entails having turkic origin, even if they were great "loyalists". There should be a clear distinction made when referring to possible allied locals, assimilated locals, and actual authentic turkic origin haplogroups.

While I agree with you about the likelihood of the possible scenarios, it still remains a possibility, because we actually know that from Eastern Europe, including and especially the Carpathian region, there was, what you might call "back migration" of steppe people and it seems that, again in the very same region, they picked up local male lineages as a minority element. Until there is sufficient testing, you can tell probabilities, but you can't exclude alternative scenarios like some G2 or E1b being picked up, moving first East as part of a steppe tribe, and then, when the West Eurasian, mostly Iranian expansion, collapsed, moved back.
That's exactly the same scenario which remains possible for our Chinese thread starter, just that these stayed in East Asia or were brought there by Turk-Mongols later. Looking at all tribal alliances of the Eurasian steppe, the only thing you can say for sure you only know who was part of it once they got tested and properly analysed. Before, its guesswork.

 

[Aspurg]

Maybe Aspurg can find something in Serbo-Croatian about this Middle Neolithic Site. With what culture is Danilo Middle Neolithic related to, predecessor and successor cultures i mean?

One sample, Y-DNA G2a.

Of course I read about Danilo Culture alot. This was the second stage of Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic.

Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic had 3 stages
1. Early Cardial, where E-L618 and C-V20 were found
2. Middle Neolithic - Danilo culture , so one is G2a2a
3. Late Neolithic - Hvar culture

After
4. Chalcolithic - Nakovana culture, (Hvar culture remnant with some later Vinca arrivals)
5. EBA - Ljubljana culture, Adriatic subtype - Nakovana remnant + Bell Beakeroid Ljubljana arrivals
6. EBA - Proto-Cetina - Adriatic Ljubljana mixed with Yamnaya Glina III and some non Ljubljana Bell Beaker.

You see why this makes sense for V13. Because of L618 find in Early Cardial and there is a string of cultures in succession after.

Dalmatian Neolithic cultures differed. In fact Danilo culture was hypothesized to have arrived from the SE, others thought it was mostly local in development.

It seems this skeleton is one of those skeletons I read about before. There are only 2 skeletons of Danilo culture. They were brachycephalic though generally Mediterranean in features. Somewhat taller Neolithics (5'5" -1.65 m).

I wonder whether this G2a2 signals there was some influx in the Middle Neolithic, as in Early Neolithic there were no G2a2. Maybe his mtdna is some clue.

 

[Johane Derite]

While I agree with you about the likelihood of the possible scenarios, it still remains a possibility, because we actually know that from Eastern Europe, including and especially the Carpathian region, there was, what you might call "back migration" of steppe people and it seems that, again in the very same region, they picked up local male lineages as a minority element. Until there is sufficient testing, you can tell probabilities, but you can't exclude alternative scenarios like some G2 or E1b being picked up, moving first East as part of a steppe tribe, and then, when the West Eurasian, mostly Iranian expansion, collapsed, moved back.
That's exactly the same scenario which remains possible for our Chinese thread starter, just that these stayed in East Asia or were brought there by Turk-Mongols later. Looking at all tribal alliances of the Eurasian steppe, the only thing you can say for sure you only know who was part of it once they got tested and properly analysed. Before, its guesswork.

I don't discount it as a possibility, and see it probable that there were groups of locals from balkans, proto-albanians included, that made alliances with these Pechenegs, Cumans, Polovotsians, etc. Byzantines did for sure. Slavs had alliances with avars, bulgars, etc. For now though i see it as improbable that balkan ev13 is from caucausus or turkic regions. I think north east carpathians and ukraine was most probably the north east periphery. More testing will clarify whether this is justified belief or not.

 

[sojc]

A little update on the still processing test:

[FONT=&quot]Quick results summary:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]E1b-V13 Panel processing[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Z5017 G-[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Z5018 T+[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]S2979 T+[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Z16659 A-[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]FGC33621 processing[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]FGC11450 processing

Says the deepest confirmed is S2979 at this point.[/FONT]

 

[Aspurg]

A little update on the still processing test:

Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 processing
FGC11450 processing

Says the deepest confirmed is S2979 at this point.

Congrats sojc! So you are S2979 after all. Z16659- is important. So there are only 3 options, S2979* (not found thus far), FGC33621 which is diverse in the Balkans, and FGC11451 which is very widespread and has many Balkan but also Carpathian clades. Even one clade in Tatars. Interesting that they are testing FGC11450, skipping FGC11457, there are some FGC11457+, FGC11450- clades.

If you are FGC33621, then maybe there is some Marco Polo like event. If you are FGC11457 that is less likely and most likely your ancestor arrived from the West earlier.

At YSEQ below FGC33621 they test also for FGC33625 (Progon and Derite, Berisha-Sopi cluster), and A10158 (Cretan Greek, Macedonian, also one Greek from Macedonia is with this N.Macedonian), Bulgarian at YFull might be A10158+.

Below FGC11457 they test no less than 20 SNP's, and all important clades are covered.

Chances are you are some FGC11457, but we'll see..

 

[Johane Derite]

A little update on the still processing test:
Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 processing
FGC11450 processing
Says the deepest confirmed is S2979 at this point.

Super interesting, keep us posted.

If you are FGC33621, here is a map i made last year of it:

 

[Hawk]

Super interesting, keep us posted.

If you are FGC33621, here is a map i made last year of it:

I might be biased but, the spread of this subclade reminds me of:

 

[Riverman]

I might be biased but, the spread of this subclade reminds me of:

Illyrians spread with Urnfield and Eastern Hallstatt, influencing Celts and Western Hallstatt too, so yes, its not that far off, with single clades most likely migrating with Italics and Celts early on in Urnfield. I'm expecting to find some in Unetice-related groups too. Its quite telling that some clades ended up in Albanians, but from specific, usually fairly old branches. I guess these were going South with the Illyrians and being part of those tribes which stayed local and kept the Illyrian tradition. The others branched off early on from the Carpathian and root and either followed other ethnicities early on (like Thracians, Celts and Italics in particular) or changed in the later course of history.
That's the Northern branching event I propose and from which some might have made it into Sintashta and Indo-Iranians too, just not as widespread and successfull, where the second early branching led directly to the Balkans South.

 

[eastara]

I always suspected he is from the Tartar/Chuvash branch and the connection are the Mongols and Golden Horde, soon we will know.

 

[Riverman]

I always suspected he is from the Tartar/Chuvash branch and the connection are the Mongols and Golden Horde, soon we will know.

That is possible, but even then the most likely path to Turkic and Mongol groups would be via Iranian tribes with origins in ancient Central and Eastern Europe.

 

[sojc]

Thanks for all the info so far guys, so so very interesting! Another update:


Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 A-
FGC11450 A+
FGC11444 processing
Y146086 processing


E-FGC11450 deepest confirmed so far...

 

[sojc]

Congrats sojc! So you are S2979 after all. Z16659- is important. So there are only 3 options, S2979* (not found thus far), FGC33621 which is diverse in the Balkans, and FGC11451 which is very widespread and has many Balkan but also Carpathian clades. Even one clade in Tatars. Interesting that they are testing FGC11450, skipping FGC11457, there are some FGC11457+, FGC11450- clades.

If you are FGC33621, then maybe there is some Marco Polo like event. If you are FGC11457 that is less likely and most likely your ancestor arrived from the West earlier.

At YSEQ below FGC33621 they test also for FGC33625 (Progon and Derite, Berisha-Sopi cluster), and A10158 (Cretan Greek, Macedonian, also one Greek from Macedonia is with this N.Macedonian), Bulgarian at YFull might be A10158+.

Below FGC11457 they test no less than 20 SNP's, and all important clades are covered.

Chances are you are some FGC11457, but we'll see..

FGC114570 confirmed so far. You are very smart

 

[sojc]

Thanks for all the info so far guys, so so very interesting! Another update:


Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 A-
FGC11450 A+
FGC11444 processing
Y146086 processing


E-FGC11450 deepest confirmed so far...

Very interesting that later descendants of E-FGC11450 seemed to have split going north to Scandinavia, and back south to the Balkans/Italy. It is suspected that it may be as a result of the Europe's largest bronze age battle (and perhaps oldest known battlefield in Europe), the battle at Tollense River in 1250BC in northern Germany:

https://phylogeographer.com/e-fgc11...s-from-the-balkans-to-scandinavia-via-poland/

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/slaughter-bridge-uncovering-colossal-bronze-age-battle

https://indo-european.eu/2017/10/th...r-that-hints-to-western-balto-slavic-origins/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tollense_valley_battlefield

 

[Riverman]

I don't think Tollense had anything to do with it, but the time and similar events did have. Probably it was around that time or in the Iron Age that your ancestor moved with some R1a folks and other company to the East from the Carpathian region, while most of his cousins either stayed where they were, or moved up North or down South with Bronze and Iron Age transitions. But who knows, probably some cousins participated in that battle too

Looks like a Northern route for you:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC11450/

 

[sojc]

I don't think Tollense had anything to do with it, but the time and similar events did have. Probably it was around that time or in the Iron Age that your ancestor moved with some R1a folks and other company to the East from the Carpathian region, while most of his cousins either stayed where they were, or moved up North or down South with Bronze and Iron Age transitions. But who knows, probably some cousins participated in that battle too

Looks like a Northern route for you:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC11450/

Will be very interesting to see what the terminal result will be. Guessing very different scenarios of how it got to Shandong province in eastern China if the terminal clade ends up in Sweden vs Russia vs back down to the Balkans/Italy...

 

[Riverman]

Will be very interesting to see what the terminal result will be. Guessing very different scenarios of how it got to Shandong province in eastern China if the terminal clade ends up in Sweden vs Russia vs back down to the Balkans/Italy...

In the end this would just change probabilities, but won't decide the path your ancestors have taken, because they might belong to a branch moving South fairly late or splitting up, some East, some South. What's more decisive, but for that you must be either lucky or patient, is the TMRCA. If you are lucky you get a hit which nails it down, which is fairly close, if you don't, you have to be patient until someone close to you does a test. The TMRCA might be wrong in some individual cases, but it could give a frame. Like if its just 1000 BP with someone from Italy, Dalmatia or Greece, its quite likely some kind of "Marco Polo" did take a voyage, whereas if your closest match is a Russian, but 3000 years are between you and him, its more likely steppe riders made it in the Bronze or Iron Age to the East.
I'm still sticking to the early Indo-Europeans riding over the steppe, also because of the province. This province had numerous steppe influences, early and late, but little European contacts before very recent times - and I guess it would be known if one of your recent ancestors was (half-) European, your genetic results don't support that either. There are also other European, steppe people derived lineages there, so while rare, it wouldn't be alone.

 

[Hawk]

Very interesting that it ever made it that far, would not even guess it. I think i am more inclined into a Middle Ages ancestor who ended up there and decided to continue there.

 

[sojc]

Very interesting that it ever made it that far, would not even guess it. I think i am more inclined into a Middle Ages ancestor who ended up there and decided to continue there.

I think it is more likely in the last 300-600 years as well. Since my dad and I both have roughly 0.4% autosomal European DNA, but each company says multiple different countries from Italy (23andMe) to Northwestern Europe (livingDNA) to Western Turkey (livingDNA) to Finland(myHeritage) to Spain (myHeritage).

I was hoping that if I could find a recent E-V13 branch, it might eventually help figure out if someone like an Italian Jesuit priest or Swedish/British trader might have brought it. Eventually as DNA testing gets more popular I hope to have a complete family tree through genetic match in my lifetime to that interesting story.

 

[Riverman]

I think it is more likely in the last 300-600 years as well. Since my dad and I both have roughly 0.4% autosomal European DNA, but each company says multiple different countries from Italy (23andMe) to Northwestern Europe (livingDNA) to Western Turkey (livingDNA) to Finland(myHeritage) to Spain (myHeritage).

I was hoping that if I could find a recent E-V13 branch, it might eventually help figure out if someone like an Italian Jesuit priest or Swedish/British trader might have brought it. Eventually as DNA testing gets more popular I hope to have a complete family tree through genetic match in my lifetime to that interesting story.

You have to consider that you are not alone from that place with European yDNA and autosomal DNA as well. Would be really interesting to know how other people from the same region score on the tests you did. That the company-tests can't pint it down might even be in favour of "old Indo-European" DNA, because it is simply not specific to any modern European people. Or just too small segments.

There are really so many possibilities between the Bronze Age and modern times, how an European could have made it to Shandong - or probably not even to Shandong, but the already mostly East Asian ancestor moved inside of China. I really hope you get close matches.