Chinese E-V13 CTS1273 ?

You have to consider that you are not alone from that place with European yDNA and autosomal DNA as well. Would be really interesting to know how other people from the same region score on the tests you did. That the company-tests can't pint it down might even be in favour of "old Indo-European" DNA, because it is simply not specific to any modern European people. Or just too small segments.

There are really so many possibilities between the Bronze Age and modern times, how an European could have made it to Shandong - or probably not even to Shandong, but the already mostly East Asian ancestor moved inside of China. I really hope you get close matches.

I checked all the male relatives on my dad's side on 23andMe who shared their yDNA info (roughly 10 very distance cousins all of Chinese descent living in America/Europe who used 23andMe), but none of them are E-V13 (they are all common Chinese groups like O).

My dad's family tree is largely lost due to the communist revolution, and I do not know relatives before my grandfather's generation. I can see how fragile E-V13 would be in that area of China, since my dad has 2 brothers, and I'm the only male of my generation since I have 1 sister and 5 female cousins. I have not even found evidence of other people with confirmed E-V13 in all of China yet on the internet, but unfortunately I don't speak Chinese so I can't read anything from Chinese forums/websites.
 
I checked all the male relatives on my dad's side on 23andMe who shared their yDNA info (roughly 10 very distance cousins all of Chinese descent living in America/Europe who used 23andMe), but none of them are E-V13 (they are all common Chinese groups like O).

My dad's family tree is largely lost due to the communist revolution, and I do not know relatives before my grandfather's generation. I can see how fragile E-V13 would be in that area of China, since my dad has 2 brothers, and I'm the only male of my generation since I have 1 sister and 5 female cousins. I have not even found evidence of other people with confirmed E-V13 in all of China yet on the internet, but unfortunately I don't speak Chinese so I can't read anything from Chinese forums/websites.

We can't know, but don't forget that even the major Indo-European haplogroup R1a is not that frequent in Chinese, but still, from the first glimpses we got, there might be hundreds of thousands to millions of Chinese with this haplogroup. If you take a fairly small sample from a region where its not common at all, you won't find it, even if its that significant. Something much smaller would be overlooked even more easily. You have the same issue here in Europe, rare clades from older layers or small scale migrations. Sometimes its pure chance they got found. Only the direct male lineage counts for the research. Some steppe groups moved from one end of Eurasia to the other within one generation, it was the ancient highway long before the first ships came from Europe to China.

For a comparison look at the data from Wikipedia again, its the Northern provinces which have R1a, J etc. more often:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_East_and_Southeast_Asia

Some percentages, and every percentage of some of these provinces means a lot, were designated as "unknown". I think its these Northern provinces which will harbour almost the full variation from Eastern Europe/the North Pontic steppe. On a fairly low level, more to the West, but spread out further.
 
Congrats sojc on beign FGC11450+, plenty of SNP's still left in the Pack. Meanwhile you've got another Chinese E-Z5018. So you're not alone. :grin:
https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y154545/

This clade is bit basal at the Z5018 level.
 
Also we've got first aDNA E-V13 on YFull: Hungarian from the same site as Bela III.

https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y58870/

They repeated the Arpad study and did the NGS for all the samples, they might do the same for the more recent Magyar Conqueror-Avar study which had more samples (few V13's too).
 
Congrats sojc on beign FGC11450+, plenty of SNP's still left in the Pack. Meanwhile you've got another Chinese E-Z5018. So you're not alone. :grin:
https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y154545/

This clade is bit basal at the Z5018 level.


That's amazing, the exact same province my father's side is from too. Interesting I'm a different branch of E-V13 though, any theories how that could happen?


Here's my current progress so far for my panel:

Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 A-
FGC11450 A+
FGC11444 G-
Y146086 G-
Y173822 processing
Y17747 processing
 
That's amazing, the exact same province my father's side is from too. Interesting I'm a different branch of E-V13 though, any theories how that could happen?

The Polish person from that clade is from Southeast of Poland where combined with adjacent areas in Ukraine and other countries there is a significant diversity of V13, and even percentage (12 % in Ruthenians in one sample, around 14 % in Carpathian Ukrainians). So these were V13's bordering Steppe and it's possible this one was assimilated by a nomadic Iranic population.


Here's my current progress so far for my panel:

Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 A-
FGC11450 A+
FGC11444 G-
Y146086 G-
Y173822 processing
Y17747 processing

So you are Y146086- and FGC11444-, both major subclades. Y146086 includes one Albanian cluster (E-Y140828), as well as few others in the Balkans. Now they are testing Y173822 (Albanian) and Y17747 (E-Y17356). If you are negative, the last SNP they will test is BY5004, which is at the E-Y58870 level with this new aDNA Hungarian sample.

I predicted based on 17 STR's two years ago this Hungarian will be E-FGC11450 and I was correct, it wasn't hard as their defining value is GATAH4=10. If you remain FGC11450* than it might be something similar to this Chinese E-Y154545 (though his analysis has just begun), might be the same with BY5004. Out of these options it seems you'd have to be Y173822+ for some "Marco Polo" like event.

EDIT: To add, At FTDNA there is
E-Z21291, this is where Tatars are (Z21291>BY107571>FT156513) along with Westerners upstream. It seems this clade is not covered by YSEQ's Pack. These Tatars also have some related Bashkirs of this cluster without the NGS.
 
Very interesting, wonder how did it get there. I must say that E-V13 spread should definitely be resolved by aDNA, we still don't know exactly how and from where exactly did it spread.

I personally, i am leaning toward Central Europe since it looks more logical to explain the spread. But, who knows.
 
The Polish person from that clade is from Southeast of Poland where combined with adjacent areas in Ukraine and other countries there is a significant diversity of V13, and even percentage (12 % in Ruthenians in one sample, around 14 % in Carpathian Ukrainians). So these were V13's bordering Steppe and it's possible this one was assimilated by a nomadic Iranic population.




So you are Y146086- and FGC11444-, both major subclades. Y146086 includes one Albanian cluster (E-Y140828), as well as few others in the Balkans. Now they are testing Y173822 (Albanian) and Y17747 (E-Y17356). If you are negative, the last SNP they will test is BY5004, which is at the E-Y58870 level with this new aDNA Hungarian sample.

I predicted based on 17 STR's two years ago this Hungarian will be E-FGC11450 and I was correct, it wasn't hard as their defining value is GATAH4=10. If you remain FGC11450* than it might be something similar to this Chinese E-Y154545 (though his analysis has just begun), might be the same with BY5004. Out of these options it seems you'd have to be Y173822+ for some "Marco Polo" like event.

EDIT: To add, At FTDNA there is
E-Z21291, this is where Tatars are (Z21291>BY107571>FT156513) along with Westerners upstream. It seems this clade is not covered by YSEQ's Pack. These Tatars also have some related Bashkirs of this cluster without the NGS.


Just got a new update right now, you know your stuff ;)


Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 A-
FGC11450 A+
FGC11444 G-
Y146086 G-
Y173822 C-
Y17747 processing
BY5004 processing
 
Just got a new update right now, you know your stuff ;)


Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel processing
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 A-
FGC11450 A+
FGC11444 G-
Y146086 G-
Y173822 C-
Y17747 processing
BY5004 processing

So Y173822- as well. They have some other SNP's at that level but it's still relatively old, so Marco Polo scenario is likely out. As I said BY5004 is the last SNP they will test. There is a chance you might be positive for one of them. Z21291 is the one remaining out, but it can be added to YSEQ on request like any SNP (though they have some standards of their own that it must pass). Here, positions in hg19 and hg38.

https://www.genetichomeland.com/welcome/dnamarkerindex.asp?chromosome=Y&snp=Z21291
 
Unfortunately FGC11450 is not a lot below V13. You should consider doing Big Y at FTDNA to have a better idea of where you fit on the tree.
 
Final results are in:

[FONT=&quot]"Quick results summary:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]E1b-V13 Panel[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Z5017 G-[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Z5018 T+[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]S2979 T+[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Z16659 A-[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]FGC33621 A-[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]FGC11450 A+[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]FGC11444 G-[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Y146086 G-[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Y173822 C-[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Y17747 T-[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]BY5004 C-[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Most specific position on the YFull YTree is E-FGC11450[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You are negative for all known downstream SNPs"


So it appears I'm [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]E-FGC11450, wonder how to best interpret this...[/FONT]
 
Final results are in:

"Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 A-
FGC11450 A+
FGC11444 G-
Y146086 G-
Y173822 C-
Y17747 T-
BY5004 C-

Most specific position on the YFull YTree is E-FGC11450

You are negative for all known downstream SNPs"


So it appears I'm
E-FGC11450, wonder how to best interpret this...

Well I'd say something similar to the other Chinese, I think Z5018 clades, especially more basal ones were definitely present in the MBA, LBA on the Steppe border. These results just make it more obvious. You can try adding and testing the last SNP Z21291. Maybe after BigY you end up sharing an SNP with some of these clades that have lower TMRCA, that's just maybe.. If you still remain FGC11450* then definitely looks like what I've been saying.
 
Well I'd say something similar to the other Chinese, I think Z5018 clades, especially more basal ones were definitely present in the MBA, LBA on the Steppe border. These results just make it more obvious. You can try adding and testing the last SNP Z21291. Maybe after BigY you end up sharing an SNP with some of these clades that have lower TMRCA, that's just maybe.. If you still remain FGC11450* then definitely looks like what I've been saying.


Fascinating. I will probably hold on more testing for a few more years to let the panels get more detailed for my next one. Until then I will be very alert to any further E-V13 near my branch in Asia.

Any updates on that other Chinese E-V13 Z5018 you mentioned earlier who was still processing?
 
Fascinating. I will probably hold on more testing for a few more years to let the panels get more detailed for my next one. Until then I will be very alert to any further E-V13 near my branch in Asia.

Any updates on that other Chinese E-V13 Z5018 you mentioned earlier who was still processing?

Apparently his analysis is completed, but we have to wait for the next update of the tree to see the details. Well it is sure to get more diversified. And as we recently had two Chinese, I expect at least few more.

As you have an account there, I still recommend you try the remaining SNP not in the YSEQ pack, as adding an SNP costs 1 $ and testing just 18 $:
http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=108


Z21291
Haplogroup: E
Reference Sequence: hg38/GRCh38
20536888 T to C
 
Apparently his analysis is completed, but we have to wait for the next update of the tree to see the details. Well it is sure to get more diversified. And as we recently had two Chinese, I expect at least few more.

As you have an account there, I still recommend you try the remaining SNP not in the YSEQ pack, as adding an SNP costs 1 $ and testing just 18 $:
http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=108


Z21291
Haplogroup: E
Reference Sequence: hg38/GRCh38
20536888 T to C



Ok I just ordered it, thanks so much for the help, and am waiting back on their reply to do it. (y)
 
Apparently his analysis is completed, but we have to wait for the next update of the tree to see the details. Well it is sure to get more diversified. And as we recently had two Chinese, I expect at least few more.

As you have an account there, I still recommend you try the remaining SNP not in the YSEQ pack, as adding an SNP costs 1 $ and testing just 18 $:
http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=108


Z21291
Haplogroup: E
Reference Sequence: hg38/GRCh38
20536888 T to C


So they are testing for Z21291 as we speak, but I also noticed on ftDNA there are also 3 other branches of FCG11450. If I test negative for Z21291, should I also test individually for the other 3?

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-Z21291
 
So they are testing for Z21291 as we speak, but I also noticed on ftDNA there are also 3 other branches of FCG11450. If I test negative for Z21291, should I also test individually for the other 3?

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-Z21291

Good luck this clade is present in the Eastern areas.

Yes, you tested FGC11444, BY5004, Y17747, parallel clades below BY4793 and FGC11465 level. These SNP's have not been registered by YFull yet.

Also below there is BY4856 parallel to other FGC11450 clades.

You tested BY5004, but at the FTDNA this SNP is below BY4991 and BY4998, so these two are older SNP's.

A. BY4793/FGC11465 level
A1 BY4991/BY4998 level, you are negative for BY5004 below them

B. BY4856/BY61548 level

So you might try BY4793/FGC11465, no sense testing BY4991 unless you are BY4793+. All of these can be found here:
https://www.genetichomeland.com/welcome/dnamarkerindex.asp

You just search for them. So there are still options around. In many ways that's why the BigY/NGS is the best, it will find your position. You can of course search for your position this way, and if you are lucky enough you might find it. Tricky part is when you have multiple SNP's at one level, while you might be negative for one, chance remains you are positive for some other SNP even if unlikely (statistically if you are negative for 1, chances are good you are negative for at least half of others). The "best" clades are those defined by just 1 SNP or few SNP's.

So some plausible paths after Z21291 could be BY4793, BY4856, BY4991 (only if BY4793+).
 
Hi everybody. Hope covid lockdown has been a good time to get better at hobbies for some.

My father (born in northeast China and identifies as full Han Chinese) and I (born in Canada, with mother full Chinese) are E-V13 according to 23andme, and when I put our results in MorleyDNA's Y subgroup predictor it returned most likely CTS1273 for both of us. Prior we believed we were of full north-eastern Chinese ancestry. 23andme autosomal gives my dad some vague European results at 0.4%, and the furthest west for me was some tiny central Asian. I later did Ancestry (full Chinese/Korean results, nothing else) and livingDNA (1.8% Anatolian, 1.3% Northwestern European) for myself. My MtDNA haplogroup is A4, and my father's Mt group is G1a. My dad's ancestry was believed to be in the Shandong province of China for at least 2500 years, as my surname (Tian) were the Kings of the State of Qi until we had a war with the 1st Chinese emperor (we lost).

I am curious how E-V13 got so far east? No one in the family has much of a clue and up until the Communist revolution my dad's side were established landlords and nobility. My hunch would be either it was there for a very long time, a European silk-road trader brought it there in the last few hundred years, or somehow it trickled east from some Greek soldiers or Russian influence.

Anyone's thoughts/guesses/hunches would be very welcome.

Roland

Hello,
Your Autosomal is mostly East Asian, Ancestry and 23andMe are reliable for recent Origin, you should offer to your Dad a 23andMe kit to confirm if he have any small European admixture,
Its should be worth if you (or your Dad) do a BigY700 test FTDNA or a WGS test (Nebula Genomics,Dante Labs, Yseq) and fransfer to Yfull,you will get your terminal subclade and an answer about your far paternal lineage.
 
Final results are in:

"Quick results summary:
E1b-V13 Panel
Z5017 G-
Z5018 T+
S2979 T+
Z16659 A-
FGC33621 A-
FGC11450 A+
FGC11444 G-
Y146086 G-
Y173822 C-
Y17747 T-
BY5004 C-

Most specific position on the YFull YTree is E-FGC11450

You are negative for all known downstream SNPs"


So it appears I'm
E-FGC11450, wonder how to best interpret this...

Hello,
The only thing that you can do is BigY700 or WGS + Transfer to Yfull,according to Yfull, E-FGC11450 is 3300 years old, you are E-FGC11450* carrier (basal subclade), your Cousins are Eastern and Western Europeans, on basal level,on Yfull, you are with a Sicilian,Dutch and unknown sample, we are also somewhere cousins, (at E-BY3880 TMRCA 4400 years ago), i am Canadian (from Montreal), My Dad is Algerian, i am E-Y138701* carrier, on Yfull, all my matches (on downstream subclades) are Portuguese guys.

 

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